Bloody boiler gas valve (I think)!
Simon (Dark Angel)
just let me down.
Refused to fire up the other day, so have just changed the PCB (thanks
Geoff). Bloody thing STILL refuses to work.
Only thing left that I can think of is the gas solenoid. When the ignition
goes to spark, the power to it is coming on, however (and I bloody wish I
realised this before) there used to be a "clunk" noise (which I assume was
the solenoid actuating), whereas there isn't now.
Someone did suggest (think it was geoff) checking the resistance to the
solenoids, which should be 4.2Kohm (IIRC), however I dont appear to be
getting any reading.
So, does this mean forking out for an engineer to replace the entire valve,
or is there a way of simply replacing the solenoid? Ive seen complete
replacement gas valves, but not the solenoid part and don;t want to be
interfering the the actual gas supply.
Any suggestions on how to proceed?
(looks like its going to be a very chilly xmas here)
TIA
--
Best Wishes
Simon Taylor
Simon Stroud
"Simon (Dark Angel)" <contact me through my website> wrote in message
news:b6qdnZQO6u2c667W...@bt.com...
Hometec badge on the front) you can indeed replace just the solenoid coils -
that's exactly what the repair man did last time it went wrong. Have a good
look at it - I think they just pull off on mine - maybe after removing a
screw.
Regards,
Simon.
Dave Liquorice
> there used to be a "clunk" noise (which I assume was the solenoid
> actuating), whereas there isn't now.
Tried giving it a gentle tap with a hammer it might just be stuck.
How ever open circuit is not a good sign that percusive maintenance
will do anything useful.
> (looks like its going to be a very chilly xmas here)
No back up heat sources? Tut tut...
--
Cheers
Dave.
Simon (Dark Angel)
"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message...
> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:09:10 -0000, Simon \(Dark Angel\) wrote:
> No back up heat sources? Tut tut...
Got a halogen heater, keeps me warm, but not much else.
I think its definately the solenoids have shorted, when testing between the
red & black wires I get a voltage in excess of 250v dc.
So, can the solenoids be replaced, or does it have to be the entire valve ?
Heliotrope Smith
"Simon (Dark Angel)" <contact me through my website> wrote in message
>
Solenoid is not available as a separate part it would have to be a complete
gas valve.
However, you would probably end up with a new boiler and empty pockets if
you just keep swapping parts.
Go here http://www.partsarena.com/baxi/ and bring up the installation
manual and work through the fault finding guide. You will have a much better
chance of solving the problem.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
geoff
Angel)" <con...@me.through.invalid> writes
>I have one of these inherently crap Potterton Suprima 30 boilers, which has
>just let me down.
>
>Refused to fire up the other day, so have just changed the PCB (thanks
>Geoff). Bloody thing STILL refuses to work.
>
>Only thing left that I can think of is the gas solenoid. When the ignition
>goes to spark, the power to it is coming on, however (and I bloody wish I
>realised this before) there used to be a "clunk" noise (which I assume was
>the solenoid actuating), whereas there isn't now.
>
>Someone did suggest (think it was geoff) checking the resistance to the
>solenoids, which should be 4.2Kohm (IIRC), however I dont appear to be
>getting any reading.
Open circuit ?
If your gas valve solenoid (s) has gone, all you can do is wait until
the shops open and get a new valve
I don't think you can just swap solenoids
>
>So, does this mean forking out for an engineer to replace the entire valve,
>or is there a way of simply replacing the solenoid? Ive seen complete
>replacement gas valves, but not the solenoid part and don;t want to be
>interfering the the actual gas supply.
>
>Any suggestions on how to proceed?
>
>(looks like its going to be a very chilly xmas here)
>
>TIA
>
>
--
geoff
geoff
Angel)" <con...@me.through.invalid> writes
>
>"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message...
>> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:09:10 -0000, Simon \(Dark Angel\) wrote:
>> No back up heat sources? Tut tut...
>
>Got a halogen heater, keeps me warm, but not much else.
>
>I think its definately the solenoids have shorted, when testing between the
>red & black wires I get a voltage in excess of 250v dc.
The manual is incorrect on this
If the voltage is 210-230 Vdc, then the solenoid is loading the circuit
correctly, if it's >300Vdc, then the pcb is driving into an open circuit
Yes, 4.2kOhms is the correct resistance of the gas valves
>
>So, can the solenoids be replaced, or does it have to be the entire valve ?
>
IIRC the solenoids are captive on a plate - you could replace that, but
it would be more dangerous than replacing the gas valve itself
--
geoff
geoff
<sm...@heliotrope.moc> writes
>
>"Simon (Dark Angel)" <contact me through my website> wrote in message
>news:mMudnUR5Q76NCq7W...@bt.com...
>>
>> "Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message...
>> > On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 14:09:10 -0000, Simon \(Dark Angel\) wrote:
>> > No back up heat sources? Tut tut...
>>
>> Got a halogen heater, keeps me warm, but not much else.
>>
>> I think its definately the solenoids have shorted,
Do you not mean open circuit
>>when testing between
>the
>> red & black wires I get a voltage in excess of 250v dc.
>>
>> So, can the solenoids be replaced, or does it have to be the entire valve
>?
>
>>
>
>Solenoid is not available as a separate part it would have to be a complete
>gas valve.
>
>However, you would probably end up with a new boiler and empty pockets if
>you just keep swapping parts.
>
>Go here http://www.partsarena.com/baxi/ and bring up the installation
>manual and work through the fault finding guide. You will have a much better
>chance of solving the problem.
>
Who needs a manual ?
Its fairly obvious what the problem is from his description - gas valve
solenoid is O/C
--
geoff
Simon (Dark Angel)
"geoff" <ra...@kateda.org> wrote in message...
>>Someone did suggest (think it was geoff) checking the resistance to the
>>solenoids, which should be 4.2Kohm (IIRC), however I dont appear to be
>>getting any reading.
>
> Open circuit ?
OK, should I be putting my ohm meter on the terminals that connect to the
red and black leads? If so, then its not a zero reading I'm getting, but
rather a resitance greater than 10kohms
> If your gas valve solenoid (s) has gone, all you can do is wait until the
> shops open and get a new valve
I assume that's a job for a gas fitter then?
I'll recheck everything in the morning, but the voltage between the red and
black leads to the gas solenoid sent the needle on my multi-tester off the
scale on the 250v DC setting (perhaps its time I invested in a digital
meter).
John Walliker
website> wrote:
>
> Someone did suggest (think it was geoff) checking the resistance to the
> solenoids, which should be 4.2Kohm (IIRC), however I dont appear to be
> getting any reading.
>
I recently had a similar problem with a Potterton Netaheat Profile. I
measured an open circuit on the pilot solenoid winding and the cure
was a new gas solenoid module. (There wasn't time to mess around as
it was very cold and the shops were about to close for the weekend.)
I should have asked whether solenoids were available separately as it
turned out that the coil was easy to remove from the module by bending
a twisted steel retainer.
Somewhat surprising was the finding that one solenoid was directly
mains powered while the other was driven via a full-wave bridge
rectifier on a small pcb inside the connection block. The rectifier
means that depending on the operating voltage of a multimeter the
resistance might appear to be higher than expected - perhaps even open
circuit - when in reality everything is OK.
In my case the winding itself really was open circuit, but I could
easily have misdiagnosed a perfectly good unit had I used a different
meter.
John
geoff
Angel)" <con...@me.through.invalid> writes
>
>"geoff" <ra...@kateda.org> wrote in message...
>>>Someone did suggest (think it was geoff) checking the resistance to the
>>>solenoids, which should be 4.2Kohm (IIRC), however I dont appear to be
>>>getting any reading.
>>
>> Open circuit ?
>
>OK, should I be putting my ohm meter on the terminals that connect to the
>red and black leads? If so, then its not a zero reading I'm getting, but
>rather a resitance greater than 10kohms
Yes, assuming that the link wire (white?) between the two solenoids is
there
===> solenoid gone
>
>> If your gas valve solenoid (s) has gone, all you can do is wait until the
>> shops open and get a new valve
>
>I assume that's a job for a gas fitter then?
>
>I'll recheck everything in the morning, but the voltage between the red and
>black leads to the gas solenoid sent the needle on my multi-tester off the
>scale on the 250v DC setting (perhaps its time I invested in a digital
>meter).
>
>
So yes - pcb is driving into an open circuit then
--
geoff
Heliotrope Smith
"geoff" <ra...@kateda.org> wrote in message
news:iL4LkzMMg$MLF...@demon.co.uk...
The OP clearly is in need of a manual or he would not have spent out on a
PCB that he did not require.
>
> Its fairly obvious what the problem is from his description - gas valve
> solenoid is O/C
>
So you give him a refund on the board that he no longer requires then?
geoff
<sm...@heliotrope.moc> writes
>> >Go here http://www.partsarena.com/baxi/ and bring up the installation
>> >manual and work through the fault finding guide. You will have a much
>better
>> >chance of solving the problem.
>> >
>> Who needs a manual ?
>
>The OP clearly is in need of a manual or he would not have spent out on a
>PCB that he did not require.
No - he asked for a pcb last week, I told him I was surprised that one
of my pcbs (albeit over 3 years old IIRC) was faulty. I can't remember
exactly what was said, but I'm fairly sure I did my best to establish
whether it was the pcb or not. I rather think that time was short and
he was willing to replace the pcb as this was the path of least
resistance
If I'm wrong then I'm sure Simon will correct me, I have had over 100
pcbs go out this week and its difficult to recall every conversation
>>
>> Its fairly obvious what the problem is from his description - gas valve
>> solenoid is O/C
>>
>So you give him a refund on the board that he no longer requires then?
>
I give anyone a refund - once
Next time they want something, they can go and buy new and not waste my
time
You see, I will do my best to diagnose and sort out the problem and get
them back up and running - a service to someone who has had a part from
me, and I am very good at it by now. I have no time for timewasters
I have no need for flow charts or such things, because I am probably
unique in that I understand what is going on inside the pcb and its
interfaces as well - I see the full picture
I know you dabble in boiler repairs, but if you depend on flow charts,
it tells me that you don't actually understand what you are doing
--
geoff
geoff
<53003938-e869-42e4...@g26g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> writes
>On 24 Dec, 14:09, "Simon \(Dark Angel\)" <contact me through my
>website> wrote:
>>
>> Someone did suggest (think it was geoff) checking the resistance to the
>> solenoids, which should be 4.2Kohm (IIRC), however I dont appear to be
>> getting any reading.
>>
>
>I recently had a similar problem with a Potterton Netaheat Profile. I
>measured an open circuit on the pilot solenoid winding and the cure
>was a new gas solenoid module. (There wasn't time to mess around as
>it was very cold and the shops were about to close for the weekend.)
>
>I should have asked whether solenoids were available separately as it
>turned out that the coil was easy to remove from the module by bending
>a twisted steel retainer.
Yeah - you could bend the bracket, but that is not really a very good
solution you will not get it to clamp the solenoid in place properly
>
>Somewhat surprising was the finding that one solenoid was directly
>mains powered while the other was driven via a full-wave bridge
>rectifier on a small pcb inside the connection block. The rectifier
>means that depending on the operating voltage of a multimeter the
>resistance might appear to be higher than expected - perhaps even open
>circuit - when in reality everything is OK.
>
>In my case the winding itself really was open circuit, but I could
>easily have misdiagnosed a perfectly good unit had I used a different
>meter.
>
If you leave diagnosis of these things to me - the nht profile is
completely different to the Suprima
A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous
--
geoff
Simon (Dark Angel)
> my pcbs (albeit over 3 years old IIRC) was faulty. I can't remember
> exactly what was said, but I'm fairly sure I did my best to establish
> whether it was the pcb or not. I rather think that time was short and he
> was willing to replace the pcb as this was the path of least resistance
Oh blimey, I seem to have started a bit of a flame war.
To clarify, Geoff is essentially correct, there is a bit more to the story
though. I had reason to suspect it might have been the PCB as the system had
been acting a bit peculiarly at the end of last winter, which I posted on
here about, and was told thats what it sounded like (pump suddeny started
running for no reason when the system was off). However, as the problem
seemed to correct itself and didn;t come back, I left it.
When my system packed up the other week, Geoff did suggest it might have
been the gas solenoid, however as this is not really a user servicable part
and as it sounded like there was a problem with the PCB anyway, I figured
this was most likely what the problem was.
I shan't be asking for a refund, because if my existing PCB does later pack
up completely at some point later we're gonna have to go through this whole
process again.
--
Best Wishes
Simon Taylor - http://actionstations.fotopic.net
Simon (Dark Angel)
British Gas have been and fitted a new gas valve this week for their customary charge of £165, which I didn;t think was bad considering these valves sell for something like £80, plus whatever the new seals for it cost.
When diagnosing the fault, it was quite amusing to see the gas engineer working through a fault finding flow chart on his laptop, like the ones mentioned elsewhere in this thread (seems even many so-called experts still need a helping hand).
So anyway, after a very cold few days, the central heating is up and running again.
Still not entirely convinced I need to take out their monthly boiler care plan though, unless you suddenly need to be corgi registered just to change a 3-port valve head or the programmer.
But anyway, thanks to all of those who tried to help!
--
Best Wishes
Simon (aka Dark Angel)
Dark Angel's Realm of Horror - http://www.realmofhorror.co.uk