New type of boiler
Broadback
conditioning unit for cars, which they expect to be in production in
four years. In so doing they realised that they can use the technique to
design a new type of central heating boiler, which they claim will be at
least 20% more economical than the best current model. This they expect
to be in production within 2 years, let's hope that my current boiler
will last that long!
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Gio
"Broadback" <w...@smith.plus.com> wrote in message
news:he3t94$9gj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
By gum, an current A rated boiler is 90% efficient so 20% on top of that
will mean it will be printing money and not costing a thing to run ! ;-)
Gio
Roger Chapman
> "Broadback" <w...@smith.plus.com> wrote in message
> news:he3t94$9gj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> A team at Warwick university have been working on a more economical air
>> conditioning unit for cars, which they expect to be in production in four
>> years. In so doing they realised that they can use the technique to design
>> a new type of central heating boiler, which they claim will be at least 20%
>> more economical than the best current model. This they expect to be in
>> production within 2 years, let's hope that my current boiler will last that
>> long!
> By gum, an current A rated boiler is 90% efficient so 20% on top of that
> will mean it will be printing money and not costing a thing to run ! ;-)
My first thought as well but could the air conditioning unit link mean
that some sort of heat pump technology is involved? Or is that thought
just pie in the sky?
Jules
Well, economical to me means the cost to run the thing. Efficiency means
how much of what you put into it you get out as useful work.
I suspect it can still be just as "wasteful" in terms of what it
loses to the atmosphere, but it does it on 20% less fuel compared to the
current generation, so the cost savings will be significant (although
I'm sure they'll put a hefty mark-up on the units themselves, so the
actual savings won't be that much - just enough to convince people to buy
their technology over the current stuff. Cynical, me :-)
cheers
Jules
Dave Plowman (News)
Gio <x...@x.co.uk> wrote:
Doesn't mention efficiency. Says 20% more economical so means it uses less
energy for a given output. I'll leave it to others to work out if such
savings are possible with the current generation of boilers.;-)
> Gio
--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
John Rumm
> I suspect it can still be just as "wasteful" in terms of what it
> loses to the atmosphere, but it does it on 20% less fuel compared to the
> current generation, so the cost savings will be significant (although
If the current generation can extract over 90% of the gross energy value
of the fuel, then how would you propose using 20% less and still getting
the same energy out?
It may be they are talking about a heat pump technology that can return
a bigger multiple of energy moved vs energy put in.
--
Cheers,
John.
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Roger Mills
Gio <x...@x.co.uk> wrote:
Ah, but maybe it runs on snake oil rather than gas? <g>
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Roger
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ARWadsworth
"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:_PednbQNVp7_A5jW...@brightview.co.uk...
> Jules wrote:
>
>> I suspect it can still be just as "wasteful" in terms of what it
>> loses to the atmosphere, but it does it on 20% less fuel compared to the
>> current generation, so the cost savings will be significant (although
>
> If the current generation can extract over 90% of the gross energy value
> of the fuel, then how would you propose using 20% less and still getting
> the same energy out?
>
> It may be they are talking about a heat pump technology that can return a
> bigger multiple of energy moved vs energy put in.
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John.
http://www.cleantech.com/news/5303/cleantech-game-changer-uk-boilers
is probably related to the OPs post.
Do not Google for "Warwick Boilers" unless you are into that sort of
thing:-)
Adam
Roger
"Broadback" <w...@smith.plus.com> wrote in message
news:he3t94$9gj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>conditioning unit for cars,
It doesn't do a thing to a diesel.
The economy only dives when you put AC on a small petrol engine.
> which they expect to be in production in four years.
Really! This is a standard homework question on a worksheet.
The university doesn't sponsor people so it is all untested theory.
>In so doing they realised that they can use the technique to design a new
>type of central heating boiler,
Really! AC has nothing to do with boilers. No wonder the
university turns out so many confused people.
> which they claim will be at least 20% more economical than the best
> current model.
More than 100%? Can't wait to see that, a boiler that produces
it's own power! Is it a nuclear powered combination boiler?
Can't you tell they are students, they don't seem to know basic
maths.
>This they expect to be in production within 2 years,
God help them if the lecturer asks the small group of homework
people to prove this.
>let's hope that my current boiler will last that long!
How long? 4 years, 2 years or 6 years?
Do us a favour, stop reproducing university homework question sheets.
Jules
> It may be they are talking about a heat pump technology that can return
> a bigger multiple of energy moved vs energy put in.
Yes.
I was imagining something where current boilers burn "100 x" to do a job
and "10 x" of that is wasted - and the new boiler burns "80 x" to do that
same job and "8 x" is (e.g.) wasted; the new is 20% more economical
because it uses 20% less fuel to do that same job, but it's still 90%
efficient because the proportion of waste is still the same.
In other words I thought the 90% thing was a measure of efficiency
purely in the combustion process - not necessarily an indication of how
good the boiler was at transferring the heat to where it was needed.
That's always been my assumption, but it is quite possibly wrong :-)
cheers
Jules
The Natural Philosopher
almost certainly a heat pump in it then.
Depending on how you regard 'effiency' these are 300-400% 'efficient'
> Gio
>
>
andrew
> Gio wrote:
>> By gum, an current A rated boiler is 90% efficient so 20% on top of that
>> will mean it will be printing money and not costing a thing to run !
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>
> almost certainly a heat pump in it then.
>
> Depending on how you regard 'effiency' these are 300-400% 'efficient'
>
I was looking at the coefficient of performance of an absoption chiller for
a trawler, used waste heat from the diesel exhaust. It seemed to be about
0.75 so I suppose the overall thermal rejection was 1.75 of heat delivered
to the unit. The boat of course had a massive heat sink right adjacent to
it, this innovation seems to be in integrating the heat exchanger with the
absorbent.
AJH
Doctor Drivel
news:7mlr8jF...@mid.individual.net...
A gas fridge, which is decades old technology is an absorption refrigeration
system. They are making it smaller. It appears the COP has improved. An
electric heat pump at COP 4 is the equivalent to gas to run as gas is about
1/4 of the price of electricity per kW. Now if this absorption unit is
smaller and has say COP 2 running on gas then it looks good. A smaller unit
using the waste heat from car exhausts may be feasible to cool. They can
heat a house or hot water if reversed, that is all a heat pump does. The
benefits are more for very hot countries.
This has been looked at for a number of years now. US car makers have been
wanting small absorption units for a long time. I think a Cadillac had one.
This looks good and should drop heating bills using absorption heat pumps
run on cheap gas, even on air-to-air units. Having them ground sourced, or
better water sourced, I'm sure an oil version will be available.
Dave Plowman (News)
Roger <roger2...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >A team at Warwick university have been working on a more economical air
> >conditioning unit for cars,
> It doesn't do a thing to a diesel.
Of course it does. AC compressors take power and it has to be paid for.
Unlike car heating which comes from waste heat.
> The economy only dives when you put AC on a small petrol engine.
It make makes a bigger percentage difference on a small economical engine.
--
*Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.
Doctor Drivel
"Roger" <roger2...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:he49l3$ouj$5...@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Broadback" <w...@smith.plus.com> wrote in message
> news:he3t94$9gj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>A team at Warwick university have been working on a more economical air
>>conditioning unit for cars,
>
> It doesn't do a thing to a diesel.
> The economy only dives when you put AC on a small petrol engine.
Drivel detected. Everything you take off the crank consumes horse power or
now kW.
John Rumm
Well if you think about it, if the process is 90% efficient - 10% is
lost out the flue, and 90% stays in the house where you want it. (in
fact you can do better than 90% if you can run maximum condensing
efficiency all the time; 96% is about the theoretical max IIUC. 90% is a
typical seasonally adjusted figure. Add some weather compensation and
you can also reduce the heating load a little by removing unwanted
overshoots and reducing overheating. Not a massive gain on modern
boilers but worth having in some cases.
John Rumm
There is an interesting development on recovery of hitherto unusable low
grade heat, which may prove quite handy if it can be made to work:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/19/quantum_crumble/
Donwill
> A team at Warwick university have been working on a more economical
> air conditioning unit for cars, which they expect to be in production
> in four years. In so doing they realised that they can use the
> technique to design a new type of central heating boiler, which they
> claim will be at least 20% more economical than the best current
> model. This they expect to be in production within 2 years, let's hope
> that my current boiler will last that long!
http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/30651/print
Don
Andy Burns
> The boat of course had a massive heat sink right adjacent to
> it,
And a car has the atmosphere whooshing past at 60mph for the same purpose.
However this boiler for a house probably still requires a paddock sized
array of coiled pipes as a ground heat source.
andrew
In my ignorance I assumed the heat source was still the mass flow of the
flue gases, i.e. the hot and cold sides were incorporated inside the
boiler. I imagined this would limit the cold side to 0C, so with the
heating circuit return flow being in the order of 50C the heat gained would
be limited to the specific heat of the flue massflow times 50 degrees.
AJH
Dave Plowman (News)
> > The boat of course had a massive heat sink right adjacent to
> > it,
> And a car has the atmosphere whooshing past at 60mph for the same
> purpose.
Not when stationary in a traffic jam - and this is when AC is often needed
most. Although many cars have an extra electric fan to cool the existing
heat exchanger in this event.
--
*Black holes are where God divided by zero *
Jim
> Not when stationary in a traffic jam - and this is when AC is often needed
> most. Although many cars have an extra electric fan to cool the existing
> heat exchanger in this event.
It's going to be fun when cars go electric and everyone has to wean
themselves off of aircon again.
Bruce
Very interesting - but what is the betting that the commercialisation
of this new British-developed technology will be done by Germany,
China and Japan, with no benefit whatsoever to the UK?
Adrian
> It's going to be fun when cars go electric and everyone has to wean
> themselves off of aircon again.
Umm, why would they need to do that?
Jim
Hmph. I misrembered the story, as it turns out - sorry.
The problem is actually the opposite one: it's quite expensive in
electricity to heat an all-electric car when the exterior temperatures
are very low and you don't have an ICE kicking out waste heat.
YAPH
> Doesn't mention efficiency. Says 20% more economical so means it uses
> less energy for a given output. I'll leave it to others to work out if
> such savings are possible with the current generation of boilers.;-)
Assuming "economical" == "efficient":
Efficiency = useful heat / total heat * 100%
Current generation boilers are about 90% efficient
i.e. useful heat / total heat ~= .9
20% of .9 is .018, so a 20% more efficient boiler would be one that is
91.8% efficient.
Big deal.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
Press any key to continue or any other key to exit
Andrew May
> 20% of .9 is .018, so a 20% more efficient boiler would be one that is
> 91.8% efficient.
>
Que? Surely 20% of 0.9 is 0.18 so a 20% more efficient boiler would be
one that is 108% efficient.
Andrew
John Rumm
Careful, you will have Dribble along in a moment claiming its possible ;-)
ARWadsworth
"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
> Andrew May wrote:
>> YAPH wrote:
>>
>>> 20% of .9 is .018, so a 20% more efficient boiler would be one that is
>>> 91.8% efficient.
>>>
>>
>> Que? Surely 20% of 0.9 is 0.18 so a 20% more efficient boiler would be
>> one that is 108% efficient.
>
> Careful, you will have Dribble along in a moment claiming its possible ;-)
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John.
But imagine the saving if you installed two boilers:-)
Adam
The Natural Philosopher
> Andrew May wrote:
>> YAPH wrote:
>>
>>> 20% of .9 is .018, so a 20% more efficient boiler would be one that is
>>> 91.8% efficient.
>>>
>>
>> Que? Surely 20% of 0.9 is 0.18 so a 20% more efficient boiler would be
>> one that is 108% efficient.
>
> Careful, you will have Dribble along in a moment claiming its possible ;-)
>
Dave Plowman (News)
YAPH <use...@yaph.co.uk> wrote:
> > Doesn't mention efficiency. Says 20% more economical so means it uses
> > less energy for a given output. I'll leave it to others to work out if
> > such savings are possible with the current generation of boilers.;-)
> Assuming "economical" == "efficient":
> Efficiency = useful heat / total heat * 100%
> Current generation boilers are about 90% efficient
> i.e. useful heat / total heat ~= .9
> 20% of .9 is .018, so a 20% more efficient boiler would be one that is
> 91.8% efficient.
Think you've added a '0' there somewhere...
I took it to mean a 20% reduction in energy use.
--
*The older you get, the better you realize you were.
Doctor Drivel
"Andy Burns" <usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:KdGdneG2p6jI_5vW...@brightview.co.uk...
Not quite. Absorption refrigeration system. They are making it smaller.
It appears the COP has improved as well. An electric heat pump at COP 4 is
the equivalent to gas to run as gas is about
1/4 of the price of electricity per kW. A heat pumps can give out 4 kW
when consuming 1kW (COP4). A seasonal average what is needed.
Now if this absorption unit is smaller and has say COP 2 running on gas then
it looks good. They can heat a house or hot water. At COP 2 using gas
means the equiv of COP 8 using an eclectic heat pump in running costs.
This means the inefficient air-to-air heat pumps run by cheap to buy gas are
quite cheap to run indeed. If COP 2 is maintained gas heating bills for the
average house will be more than halved.
Install these into highly insulated homes and the heating bills will be very
low indeed.
That is air-to-air. Have a water or ground sourced system and the heating
bills are lower again maybe to a 1/4 or less of current gas bills.
It is all to do with the cost of gas vs electricity per kW.
Doctor Drivel
Doctor Drivel
> It's going to be fun when cars go electric and everyone has to wean
> themselves off of aircon again.
Insulated bodies are being developed by the big makers. Renault are big in
this. Using the technology available right now in electric motors,
batteries, brake regen, supercapacitors, insulated bodies, reflective glass,
etc, if all engineered into a complete car, heating and cooling it will not
be a problem.
Andy Burns
> It is all to do with the cost of gas vs electricity per kW.
And the price of this new wonderboiler will no doubt reflect the savings
it would make ...
Doctor Drivel
You don't know the price yet, so stop making things up. It could also cool
as well.
YAPH
> Install these into highly insulated homes and the heating bills will be
> very low indeed.
Why bother? http://tonyshouse.info/ doesn't - from his heatloss calcs he
reckons he'll need 700W to heat the entire house at -3C outside. For that
sort of requirement you might just as well leave a few lights and a PC on
and you'll be cosy.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
The floggings will continue until morale improves
Doctor Drivel
"YAPH" <use...@yaph.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7n0ln7F...@mid.individual.net...
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:56:25 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
>> Install these into highly insulated homes and the heating bills will be
>> very low indeed.
>
> Why bother? http://tonyshouse.info/ doesn't - from his heatloss calcs he
> reckons he'll need 700W to heat the entire house at -3C outside. For that
> sort of requirement you might just as well leave a few lights and a PC on
> and you'll be cosy.
Interesting. Interseasonal store? Look at this. No gagetry and cheap to
build:
Look at:
http://tinyurl.com/3tiq
Heatingless house in Scotland by Deveci costing no more to build than
others. Figure by the university, so no arm-waving.
Looking at it, it can be improved even more.
Andy Burns
> http://tinyurl.com/3tiq
>
> Heatingless house in Scotland by Deveci costing no more to build than
> others. Figure by the university, so no arm-waving.
If it was built 10 years ago, have they done a follow-up study to see if
the "zero heating" projections were borne out?
Andy Dingley
> Look at:http://tinyurl.com/3tiq
>
> Heatingless house in Scotland by Deveci costing no more to build than
> others. Figure by the university, so no arm-waving.
There's also a new-build estate going up in Belfast, all without C/H
(not sure how "heatingless" they are otherwise).
Doctor Drivel
The word "heatingless" is a misnomer. It uses a small amount of heat. I am
not sure if there are follow ups. Deveci has been building these homes for
20 years.
ARWadsworth
"Andy Dingley" <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote in message
news:60b42e9b-c903-4cd5...@t18g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
The BBC news item is here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8368261.stm
Adam
Andrew Gabriel
YAPH <use...@yaph.co.uk> writes:
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:56:25 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
>> Install these into highly insulated homes and the heating bills will be
>> very low indeed.
>
> Why bother? http://tonyshouse.info/ doesn't - from his heatloss calcs he
> reckons he'll need 700W to heat the entire house at -3C outside. For that
> sort of requirement you might just as well leave a few lights and a PC on
> and you'll be cosy.
You'd need rather a lot of CFL's, and some sunglasses ;-)
Reminds me - a few years ago we tendered to supply the office IT
kit for a new building, and bid SunRays (thin clients, 4W power
consumption). Problem was that they'd assumed 120W PC+monitor
per person to provide the office heating. I suggested we nip round
to Argus and get a bulk load of convector heaters, and offer them
a free heater with every 10 SunRays. At least they could turn them
off in the summer.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]