light switches - safety issue?
DarkHorse
mentioned below!
I noticed that all the light switches, in my rented flat, are screwed
in with slightly oversized screws.
This means that they don't flush neatly with the light switch casing.
Further investigation revealed that the screws that should have been
used, are still attached to the inside of the casing, i.e. unused.
Also, that the light switch casings are not screwed into those metal
'boxes' usually seen behind light switches, but instead into bits of
wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the wall.
This explains why the 'wrong' screws were used, i.e. they are pointy
at the end (so that they can screw into the bits of wood) instead of
flat.
At least one of the switches is definitely lose, and I'm sure the
landlord (i.e. the Council) would agree to fix that, but it would be
great if I could get them to 'tidy up' all the other switches too.
However, I'm sure they will only do it if the present set-up
contravenes safety regulations or 'good-practice'.
Does anyone know if any safety guidelines have been contravened?
thanks
DH
Christian McArdle
If an "electrician" had done such an install to my house, I would have
called the police.
Christian.
Harry Bloomfield
> Apologies for not knowing the correct names for the bits'n'bobs
> mentioned below!
>
> I noticed that all the light switches, in my rented flat, are screwed
> in with slightly oversized screws.
>
> This means that they don't flush neatly with the light switch casing.
>
> Further investigation revealed that the screws that should have been
> used, are still attached to the inside of the casing, i.e. unused.
>
> Also, that the light switch casings are not screwed into those metal
> 'boxes' usually seen behind light switches, but instead into bits of
> wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the wall.
Every light switch should have an earthed metal box behind it, with
lugs into which the proper screws will fit. Long ago they used to use a
wooden box set into the wall, could this be the wood you can see? Is
the cable brightly coloured plastic, or perhaps something much older
such as dull coloured rubber or cable with a waxy cotton woven outer
cover?
Either of the latter would leave me in no doubt that an electrician is
needed urgently.
Are the main fuses original and untouched? If they are fuses, with fuse
wire then it is long overdue for rewiring. MCB's (trips) have been used
instead of fuses for a great many years and my own home has twice been
rewired since MCB's appeared.
Either way, it sounds as if some botcher has come along and replaced
the old light switches with new ones, as a quick fix.
Concerns over items which can be easily seen, raise concerns about what
might be more deeply hidden under the plaster and the floorboards.
If you have any doubts or concerns, find a qualified professional
willing to do a survey and written report on the condition of your
installation and its safety. The council would not be able to argue
with that.
--
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org
Christian McArdle
>
> If an "electrician" had done such an install to my house, I would have
> called the police.
P.S. The standard of work that it indicates means that your property should
probably be entirely rewired to the wiring standards. Anyone who can use
wooden battens instead of proper metal boxes (which cost pence and require
less work to install), is capable of all sorts of horrendously dangerous
things.
If you get no joy from the council, see if you can get NICEIC interested. At
least get a IEE periodical inspection certificate from an NICEIC
electrician. The report is likely to be so horrendous that a claim in the
country court (small claims track) is likely to succeed. Until then, don't
use any high powered appliances in the house. He probably used bell wire to
connect the sockets and replaced the fuses with kitchen foil.
Christian.
Peter Watson
harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk says...
>
> Every light switch should have an earthed metal box behind it, with
> lugs into which the proper screws will fit. Long ago they used to use a
> wooden box set into the wall, could this be the wood you can see?
What about dry lining boxes? :) Surely that should read "If the light
switch is fitted into a metal box, the box should be earthed"
There is nothing intrinsically unsafe about wooden back boxes for light
switches - My house built in 1959 still has those that I haven't
replaced yet but I'm only doing that as I redecorate, not as part of the
rewiring project... (I'm only using plastic switches though) I don't
view this as 'unsafe' - It may not be 'best practice' or be completely
comply with the current wiring regs.
Is there a requirement for rented property to comply with all current
building and wiring regs? If so then the OP has probably got a
reasonable argument with his landlord.
Peter
Christian McArdle
> switches
But "but instead into bits of wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the
wall" doesn't sound like wooden back boxes to me.
Christian.
Tim Mitchell
Bloomfield <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>
>Are the main fuses original and untouched? If they are fuses, with fuse
>wire then it is long overdue for rewiring. MCB's (trips) have been used
>instead of fuses for a great many years and my own home has twice been
>rewired since MCB's appeared.
>
built in the 1980's, so a desperate need for rewiring does not
necessarily follow.
--
Tim Mitchell
Bob Mannix
"Tim Mitchell" <ti...@sabretechnology.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6vS3C1Th...@tega.co.uk...
But not, probably, "fuses with fuse wire" which is what HB said. I suspect
yours, like mine, are cartridge fuses.
--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
Christian McArdle
> yours, like mine, are cartridge fuses.
I had some (but not all) of my fuses as free air wire types in my 1986 (or
was it 1983?) house. I sold it before I had the chance to replace the CU.
Christian.
chris French
McArdle <cmcar...@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk> writes
>> > Does anyone know if any safety guidelines have been contravened?
>>
>> If an "electrician" had done such an install to my house, I would have
>> called the police.
>
>P.S. The standard of work that it indicates means that your property should
>probably be entirely rewired to the wiring standards. Anyone who can use
>wooden battens instead of proper metal boxes (which cost pence and require
>less work to install), is capable of all sorts of horrendously dangerous
>things.
Quite likley yes.
I wonder if these boxes are old ones that don't take the modern
faceplate screws?
--
Chris French, Leeds
Tim Mitchell
<b1o2b3...@rl.ac.uk> writes
--
Tim Mitchell
Harry Bloomfield
>> But not, probably, "fuses with fuse wire" which is what HB said. I suspect
>> yours, like mine, are cartridge fuses.
>>
> No, they have real wire in them. Wylex's best.
I have not seen fuse wire on sale for years, what do you use when one
blows?
Harry Bloomfield
> What about dry lining boxes? :) Surely that should read "If the light
> switch is fitted into a metal box, the box should be earthed"
I assumed the OP ment wood in a solid plastered wall. I don't think I
have come across wooden boxes used in non-solid walls.
>
> There is nothing intrinsically unsafe about wooden back boxes for light
> switches - My house built in 1959 still has those that I haven't
> replaced yet but I'm only doing that as I redecorate, not as part of the
> rewiring project... (I'm only using plastic switches though) I don't
> view this as 'unsafe' - It may not be 'best practice' or be completely
> comply with the current wiring regs.
There is no actual requirement to meet current standards except for new
works, although there is a requirement to ensure that during the
installation major extensions of the installation that the rest of the
work does meet a reasonable standard.
The requirements and standards of 1959 are now well out of date. The
cable insulation will also likely be dried out and no longer safe,
especially so if it has been disturbed. I would suggest that since 1959
that the wiring will have been disturbed several times over.
>
> Is there a requirement for rented property to comply with all current
> building and wiring regs? If so then the OP has probably got a
> reasonable argument with his landlord.
There is a requirement for the installation to be safe, properly
maintained and free from hazards.
Dave Plowman
Peter Watson <pe...@pwatson.org> wrote:
> There is nothing intrinsically unsafe about wooden back boxes for light
> switches - My house built in 1959 still has those that I haven't
> replaced yet but I'm only doing that as I redecorate, not as part of the
> rewiring project... (I'm only using plastic switches though) I don't
> view this as 'unsafe' - It may not be 'best practice' or be completely
> comply with the current wiring regs.
Lots of things over the years have changed through experience of problems
or dangers, etc. In 1959, plenty of things that we know now should be
earthed, weren't.
Wood switch boxes weren't designed to fix a modern switch to - as the OP's
post shows.
--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
John Rumm
> I have not seen fuse wire on sale for years, what do you use when one
> blows?
Fusewire...
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Necessities_Index/Fuse_Wire/index.html
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
mike ring
news:mesnews.942e7d43....@tiscali.co.uk:
>>> But not, probably, "fuses with fuse wire" which is what HB said. I
>>> suspect yours, like mine, are cartridge fuses.
>>>
>> No, they have real wire in them. Wylex's best.
>
> I have not seen fuse wire on sale for years, what do you use when one
> blows?
>
I haven't seen a card of fuse wire that seems to be less than 30 - 50 years
old; I've still got a couple as I used an old box for my garage.
OTOH, I also haven't seen a card that hasn't *still* got a good supply of
wire on it - perhaps they're like the widow's cruse!
I also use the 5A fuse wire to provide quick fusible links for little
projects I knock up, easier to fit than a holder, just solder across a
couple of terminals, and expect it to last 50 years once I've stopped
fooling around with me mouldering iron
mike r
Michael Chare
news:4c91a96e97...@argonet.co.uk...
> In article <MPG.1ac3c3063...@news.plus.net>,
> Peter Watson <pe...@pwatson.org> wrote:
> > There is nothing intrinsically unsafe about wooden back boxes for light
> > switches - My house built in 1959 still has those that I haven't
> > replaced yet but I'm only doing that as I redecorate, not as part of the
> > rewiring project... (I'm only using plastic switches though) I don't
> > view this as 'unsafe' - It may not be 'best practice' or be completely
> > comply with the current wiring regs.
>
> Lots of things over the years have changed through experience of problems
> or dangers, etc. In 1959, plenty of things that we know now should be
> earthed, weren't.
>
> Wood switch boxes weren't designed to fix a modern switch to - as the OP's
> post shows.
My house was built in the 50s, some of the light switches are what might be
termed modern fittings on wooden boxes. I would be surprised if they are not
original equipment. The screws that hold the switches to the wall are not
wonderful.
I rather think that there is no earth wire, so I don't think that I could
legitimately change to metal boxes.
If this is the case for the OP, then possibly he could get the landord to fit
better rawlplugs for the screws to go into.
Michael Chare
Martin Angove
mike ring <mike...@MICHAELbtinternet.com> wrote:
> Harry Bloomfield <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
> news:mesnews.942e7d43....@tiscali.co.uk:
>
> >>> But not, probably, "fuses with fuse wire" which is what HB said. I
> >>> suspect yours, like mine, are cartridge fuses.
> >>>
> >> No, they have real wire in them. Wylex's best.
> >
> > I have not seen fuse wire on sale for years, what do you use when one
> > blows?
> >
> I haven't seen a card of fuse wire that seems to be less than 30 - 50 years
> old; I've still got a couple as I used an old box for my garage.
>
I'm sure the last card of wire I bought came from the local B&Q... or
perhaps it was Focus. Whatever, it was only a few weeks ago. The local
ironmonger (not that he calls himself that) stocks it too.
I know of whole estates of houses built in the 1980s with rewireables.
I lived in one. It seems almost laughable how little allowance for
growth there was - I've just done some work in a 1984 2-bed house on a
large development in Cardiff where the CU was a 60A Wylex 4-way with 30A
(originally cooker, swapped to shower), 30A (all sockets), 15A
(immersion), 5A (all lights). The previous owner had swapped the
rewireables for plug-in MCBs though.
By the time I'd finished (1 new ring, 1 new radial, cooker re-instated,
split the lights), the original 4 circuits had become 8 in a 6+6
split-load RCD box.
On the subject of under-provision of electrical stuff, my parents' 1967
four-bed semi with a (mostly) open-plan downstairs originally had just
*two* single sockets in the living area and two (or three?) in the
kitchen. It did have one FCU too for some unknown reason.
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
... --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E--
Dave Plowman
mike ring <mike...@MICHAELbtinternet.com> wrote:
> > I have not seen fuse wire on sale for years, what do you use when one
> > blows?
> >
> I haven't seen a card of fuse wire that seems to be less than 30 - 50
> years old; I've still got a couple as I used an old box for my garage.
> OTOH, I also haven't seen a card that hasn't *still* got a good supply
> of wire on it - perhaps they're like the widow's cruse!
> I also use the 5A fuse wire to provide quick fusible links for little
> projects I knock up, easier to fit than a holder, just solder across a
> couple of terminals, and expect it to last 50 years once I've stopped
> fooling around with me mouldering iron
TLC sell all the standard sizes on reels - as well as mixed cards. I also
use it for wire links on PCBs - much cheaper than Maplin etc. Now
someone's going to tell me it's not just ordinary copper wire. ;-)
--
*If you ate pasta and anti-pasta, would you still be hungry?
N. Thornton
> Are the main fuses original and untouched? If they are fuses, with fuse
> wire then it is long overdue for rewiring. MCB's (trips) have been used
> instead of fuses for a great many years and my own home has twice been
> rewired since MCB's appeared.
Sorry but this is [popular] nonsense. Rewirable fuses meet the latest
regs and are still sometimes installed. Certainly most 80s installs
will have them. They are not a reason to rewire at all.
BTW to the uninitiated, the typical Wylex fuseboxes often look a lot
older than they are. There are even still sound installs with a wood
and bakelite Wylex CU.
> Either way, it sounds as if some botcher has come along and replaced
> the old light switches with new ones, as a quick fix.
>
> Concerns over items which can be easily seen, raise concerns about what
> might be more deeply hidden under the plaster and the floorboards.
>
>
> If you have any doubts or concerns, find a qualified professional
> willing to do a survey and written report on the condition of your
> installation and its safety. The council would not be able to argue
> with that.
The rest of this I do agree with.
Regards, NT
Christian McArdle
> regs and are still sometimes installed.
There is no reason to have fuse wire, though. They are inherently more
dangerous than other protection methods. At the very least, they should be
swapped with cartridge fuses, which don't set fire to the house when they
blow.
Christian.
Tim Mitchell
Bloomfield <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>>> But not, probably, "fuses with fuse wire" which is what HB said. I suspect
>>> yours, like mine, are cartridge fuses.
>>>
>> No, they have real wire in them. Wylex's best.
>
>I have not seen fuse wire on sale for years, what do you use when one
>blows?
>
blow very often, I hasten to add). I'd replace the fuses with plug in
MCBs except that the consumer unit is in a very conspicuous place, high
up on the wall in the corner of the kitchen. Bizarre place to put a CU
but then it is a Barratt house.
--
Tim Mitchell
use...@isbd.co.uk
> Tim Mitchell presented the following explanation :
> >> But not, probably, "fuses with fuse wire" which is what HB said. I suspect
> >> yours, like mine, are cartridge fuses.
> >>
> > No, they have real wire in them. Wylex's best.
>
> I have not seen fuse wire on sale for years, what do you use when one
> blows?
>
had to ask where it was but they had it OK.
--
Chris Green
Christian McArdle
> blows?
Even the small DIY stores stock it. I had no problem getting it from the
little Focus in Winnersh.
Christian.
MBQ
> DarkHorse wrote :
> > Apologies for not knowing the correct names for the bits'n'bobs
> > mentioned below!
> >
> > I noticed that all the light switches, in my rented flat, are screwed
> > in with slightly oversized screws.
> >
> > This means that they don't flush neatly with the light switch casing.
> >
> > Further investigation revealed that the screws that should have been
> > used, are still attached to the inside of the casing, i.e. unused.
> >
> > Also, that the light switch casings are not screwed into those metal
> > 'boxes' usually seen behind light switches, but instead into bits of
> > wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the wall.
>
> Every light switch should have an earthed metal box behind it, with
Why?
Speaking practically, rather than what might be in the regs, if the
box weren't metal you wouldn't need the earth. The earth is needed
because a fault leading to the metal box becoming live would result in
the screws being live.
Do surface mount boxes have earth connections to the threaded lugs for
the faceplate screws?
MBQ
Harry Bloomfield
> Why?
>
> Speaking practically, rather than what might be in the regs, if the
> box weren't metal you wouldn't need the earth. The earth is needed
> because a fault leading to the metal box becoming live would result in
> the screws being live.
>
> Do surface mount boxes have earth connections to the threaded lugs for
> the faceplate screws?
>
> MBQ
Good point....
I think you will find that the need for the provision of an earth is
there to accomodate those who change the plastic switches for metal
ones (brass). Even the surface plastic boxes incorporate an earth
terminal.
Christian McArdle
>
They don't. Plastic boxes are perfectly permissable, either of the surface
mount or plasterboard type. On the other hand, old offcuts of wood jammed
into the hole are not acceptable.
> Do surface mount boxes have earth connections to the threaded lugs for
> the faceplate screws?
No. Nor do plastic light switches usually have any earthing at all. No metal
where the faceplate screws touch, no screw terminal for an earth
termination. Obviously, metal faced switches will have both.
Christian.
DarkHorse
>> > Does anyone know if any safety guidelines have been contravened?
>>
>> If an "electrician" had done such an install to my house, I would have
>> called the police.
>
> P.S. The standard of work that it indicates means that your property should
> probably be entirely rewired to the wiring standards. Anyone who can use
> wooden battens instead of proper metal boxes (which cost pence and require
> less work to install), is capable of all sorts of horrendously dangerous
> things.
>
> If you get no joy from the council, see if you can get NICEIC interested. At
> least get a IEE periodical inspection certificate from an NICEIC
> electrician.
I didn't know about the NICEIC so thanks for pointing me to them. I
checked their website and they have a technical support telephone
number listed too, which I phoned.
Other than the one obviously lose switch, they saw it more of a 'code
2' issue rather than a 'code 1', ie. that it was not seriously urgent
but at the same time it would be better practice and advisable to have
the metal boxes etc.
> The report is likely to be so horrendous that a claim in the
> country court (small claims track) is likely to succeed. Until then, don't
> use any high powered appliances in the house. He probably used bell wire to
> connect the sockets and replaced the fuses with kitchen foil.
I suppose I do wonder what else, perhaps more serious, might need
attention. I forgot to ask the NICEIC if its possible to get a free
independent 'check-up' like you do with gas. I'll call them again (bit
of a long wait to get through though).
DH
DarkHorse
back.
Harry Bloomfield <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> DarkHorse wrote :
>> I noticed that all the light switches, in my rented flat, are screwed
>> in with slightly oversized screws.
>>
>> This means that they don't flush neatly with the light switch casing.
>>
>> Further investigation revealed that the screws that should have been
>> used, are still attached to the inside of the casing, i.e. unused.
>>
>> Also, that the light switch casings are not screwed into those metal
>> 'boxes' usually seen behind light switches, but instead into bits of
>> wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the wall.
>
> Every light switch should have an earthed metal box behind it, with
> lugs into which the proper screws will fit. Long ago they used to use a
> wooden box set into the wall, could this be the wood you can see?
I had another look, and I suppose they are 'box-like'. The lose one I
mentioned is badly split though, which makes it look more haphazard.
> Is the cable brightly coloured plastic, or perhaps something much older such
> as dull coloured rubber or cable with a waxy cotton woven outer cover?
There are 2 red plastic covered wires connected to the switches and a
yellow/green wire not connected to anything. These 3 wires come out of
a black plastic tube. This is the same for all the light switches.
> Either of the latter would leave me in no doubt that an electrician is
> needed urgently.
>
> Are the main fuses original and untouched? If they are fuses, with fuse
> wire then it is long overdue for rewiring. MCB's (trips) have been used
> instead of fuses for a great many years and my own home has twice been
> rewired since MCB's appeared.
I assume you mean the 'fuse-box'? I'm not sure what sort of fuses they
are, but it says on it 'Residual Current Operated Circuit Breaker'.
There's an NICEIC sticker on it, with last inspection date May 2003
written on it.
Incidentally, I pressed the test switch, and it cuts out all the power
except to the lights.
> Either way, it sounds as if some botcher has come along and replaced
> the old light switches with new ones, as a quick fix.
>
> Concerns over items which can be easily seen, raise concerns about what
> might be more deeply hidden under the plaster and the floorboards.
>
> If you have any doubts or concerns, find a qualified professional
> willing to do a survey and written report on the condition of your
> installation and its safety. The council would not be able to argue
> with that.
I'd love to do that but I can't afford it.
DH
Steve Walker
My local Spar has cards of fusewire. It's with all the buttons, cotton,
needles, combs and other "about a pound" items.
Steve W
Harry Bloomfield
> I had another look, and I suppose they are 'box-like'. The lose one I
> mentioned is badly split though, which makes it look more haphazard.
>
>> Is the cable brightly coloured plastic, or perhaps something much older
>> such
>> as dull coloured rubber or cable with a waxy cotton woven outer cover?
>
> There are 2 red plastic covered wires connected to the switches and a
> yellow/green wire not connected to anything. These 3 wires come out of
> a black plastic tube. This is the same for all the light switches.
OK....
The wooden boxes suggest that the original installation was completed I
would guess sometime pre WWII. Down the walls to the switches there
will be metal conduits which has enabled them to rewire the lighting
circuits. The fact that there are earths provided which are sleaved
with green/yellow suggests it was rewired post about 1975 (anyone able
to confirm this?). So the only thing which needs to be done to correct
the obvious problem, is for the wooden boxes to be replaced with proper
metal boxes. It might be worth chasing your landlord to get this done.
>> Are the main fuses original and untouched? If they are fuses, with fuse
>> wire then it is long overdue for rewiring. MCB's (trips) have been used
>> instead of fuses for a great many years and my own home has twice been
>> rewired since MCB's appeared.
>
> I assume you mean the 'fuse-box'? I'm not sure what sort of fuses they
> are, but it says on it 'Residual Current Operated Circuit Breaker'.
> There's an NICEIC sticker on it, with last inspection date May 2003
> written on it.
>
> Incidentally, I pressed the test switch, and it cuts out all the power
> except to the lights.
The fact that it is fitted with what sounds like a fairly modern split
RCD Dis-board (fuse board) and that it has been recently
inspected/tested, further confirms that it is probably all up to date
and safe. It would however still be worth pestering for the switches to
be sorted out properly, as they should have been when it was rewired.
It is now normal for the lighting circuits and fridge/freezer circuits
to be not be interrupted by the RCD.
>
>> Either way, it sounds as if some botcher has come along and replaced
>> the old light switches with new ones, as a quick fix.
The only botch might be that of leaving the wooden boxes in place.
Ships and tar comes to mind.
>> If you have any doubts or concerns, find a qualified professional
>> willing to do a survey and written report on the condition of your
>> installation and its safety. The council would not be able to argue
>> with that.
>
> I'd love to do that but I can't afford it.
Based upon your additional description and the recent test certificate,
I feel you would be wasting money in obtaining a professional report.
Peter Watson
harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk says...
> OK....
>
> The wooden boxes suggest that the original installation was completed I
> would guess sometime pre WWII. Down the walls to the switches there
> will be metal conduits which has enabled them to rewire the lighting
> circuits. The fact that there are earths provided which are sleaved
> with green/yellow suggests it was rewired post about 1975 (anyone able
> to confirm this?). So the only thing which needs to be done to correct
> the obvious problem, is for the wooden boxes to be replaced with proper
> metal boxes. It might be worth chasing your landlord to get this done.
>
loose because the wooden boxes aren't deep enough to accomodate the
switch fitted.
My general question is why *must* wooden boxes be replaced? As I said
yesterday, they are not 'unsafe' just not 'current'.
Does anyone know why wooden boxes fell out of favour? On a more general
point why was it comon to uses wooden boxes for light switches but metal
boxes for sockets (at least in my 1959 house)? I can see the logic of
*not* using metal boxes for lighting when it was common not to have a
lighting earth...
Peter
Owain
| There are 2 red plastic covered wires connected to the switches and
| a yellow/green wire not connected to anything. These 3 wires come out
| of a black plastic tube. This is the same for all the light switches.
It sounds as though you have had a rewire reusing 'singles' in some existing
conduit; I wonder if the switches were originally round ones fitted on top
of circular conduit boxes, replaced with square ones perhaps in the 50s (I
have seen black bakelite square pattress switches) using wood plugs into the
wall to hold the switch, then subsequently replaced again with new switches
but the installer re-used the 1950s rewirer's wooden plugs or blocks. Shoddy
work but not necessarily criminal.
Incidentally, are you sure that conduit(tube)'s plastic? It might be fibre
which has started disintegrating.
| I assume you mean the 'fuse-box'? I'm not sure what sort of fuses they
| are, but it says on it 'Residual Current Operated Circuit Breaker'.
| Incidentally, I pressed the test switch, and it cuts out all the power
| except to the lights.
Sounds like a split load consumer unit, again that's fairly modern.
| There's an NICEIC sticker on it, with last inspection date May 2003
| written on it.
Any indication who wrote it - if it's one of the council's own electricians
who also did the wiring, well, they'd pass their own work wouldn't they.
| > If you have any doubts or concerns, find a qualified professional
| > willing to do a survey and written report on the condition of your
| > installation and its safety. The council would not be able to argue
| > with that.
| I'd love to do that but I can't afford it.
If you can upload photos of the inside of your lightswitch, and your
meter/fusebox, to a webserver somewhere (your free NTL webspace?) and post
the URL we might be able to recognise the particular bodge that has been
applied.
Owain
PS Rented property - you should have permanently wired in mains powered
smoke detectors.
Lurch
<REMOVEcinem...@breathe.com> strung together this:
>I forgot to ask the NICEIC if its possible to get a free
>independent 'check-up' like you do with gas. I'll call them again (bit
>of a long wait to get through though).
>
I very much doubt you'll get a free check-up from the NICEIC. They are
more of a governing body than a group of contractors. The electrical
equivalent of CORGI really.
The local electricity suppliers quite often have 'free visual safety
checks', might be worth giving them a call.
--
SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.
Lurch
<harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> strung together this:
The earth terminal is there because the likelihood is that there will
be an earth wire there with somewhere needed to put it. Technically
the earth doesn't need to be there at all, the switch and pattress are
both double insulated pieces of equipment.
--
SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.
mike ring
news:MPG.1ac50359d...@news.plus.net:
>
> Does anyone know why wooden boxes fell out of favour?
My guess, having been brough up with them, is as several posters have
mentioned, that they get very second hand over time and splinter, bu=igger
screws are needed which do more damage....
On a more general
> point why was it comon to uses wooden boxes for light switches but metal
> boxes for sockets (at least in my 1959 house)?
I think you answered it yourself - lights wiring used not to have earths,
so you didn't even have a place to land an earth wire, but power sockets
did have earths
mike r
Dave Plowman
Why would that be, unless the fuse is of far too high a rating for the
circuit?
I've still got re-wirable fuses - from when I wired the house up about 25
years ago, and from memory, only two have ever blown. The first was due to
only being 5 amp on a lighting circuit drawing more - so I upgraded it to
10, and the immersion heater one when it failed. When I hear all those
stories about MCBs tripping when a bulb blows, I do wonder about the need
for them.
FWIW, I've got individual RCDs protecting sockets that really need them.
--
*Can vegetarians eat animal crackers?
Dave Plowman
MBQ <manat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Every light switch should have an earthed metal box behind it, with
> Why?
Because people have a habit of fitting metal plate dimmers, etc.
> Speaking practically, rather than what might be in the regs, if the
> box weren't metal you wouldn't need the earth. The earth is needed
> because a fault leading to the metal box becoming live would result in
> the screws being live.
> Do surface mount boxes have earth connections to the threaded lugs for
> the faceplate screws?
Yes. The last metal surface light switch I fitted had earth terminals in
the box and on the switch.
--
*Corduroy pillows are making headlines.
Lurch
<dave....@argonet.co.uk> strung together this:
>> Do surface mount boxes have earth connections to the threaded lugs for
>> the faceplate screws?
>
>Yes.
ITYM no. You appear to have misread the question. ;-)
--
SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.
Dave Plowman
Lurch <bill....@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> Do surface mount boxes have earth connections to the threaded lugs
> >> for the faceplate screws?
> >
> >Yes.
> ITYM no. You appear to have misread the question. ;-)
Yes and no. Surface mount boxes don't generally have adjustable lugs, so
they are directly attached to the metal of the box, so are always earthed.
A surface mount plastic box has little possibility - unless damaged - of
any conductor coming into contact with the screw insert or screw.
--
*Dance like nobody's watching.
Martin Angove
Dave Plowman <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <405ab9af$0$6549$ed9e...@reading.news.pipex.net>,
> Christian McArdle <cmcar...@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Sorry but this is [popular] nonsense. Rewirable fuses meet the latest
> > > regs and are still sometimes installed.
>
> > There is no reason to have fuse wire, though. They are inherently more
> > dangerous than other protection methods. At the very least, they should
> > be swapped with cartridge fuses, which don't set fire to the house when
> > they blow.
>
> Why would that be, unless the fuse is of far too high a rating for the
> circuit?
>
>
The use of rewireable fuses is allowed in the regulations, but they
don't like it:
533-01-01
A fuse having a fuse link likely to be replaced by a person other than
a skilled person or an instructed person shall preferably be of a type
such that it cannot be replaced inadvertently by one having a higher
nominal current.
[Obviously this is impossible for a rewireable fuse]
533-01-02
...[or of being replaced by] a fuse link having the intended nominal
current but a higher fusing factor than that intended.
[Likewise - especially if someone gets hold of table 53A and doesn't use
the right sort of wire]
Rewireable fuses have a lower short circuit breaking capacity than
either cartridge fuses or MCBs. This may be an issue, particularly if
you have a PME supply where the loop impedance might be very low.
Circuits require derating for use with rewireables - less current or
chunkier cables - this is because they take higher fault currents to
blow. Most of this is, however, accounted for by the fact that fuse wire
is generally rated lower than the equivalent MCB anyway (c.f. 5A/6A
lighting circuits, 30A/32A sockets circuits). See Appendix 4, section 5:
"The size needed for a conductor protected against overload by a BS3036
semi-enclosed fuse can be obtained by the use of a correction factor,
1.45/2 = 0.725, which results in the same degree of protection as that
afforded by other overload protective devices. This factor is to be
applied to the nominal rating of the fuse as a divisor, this indicating
the minimum value of It [tabulated current carrying capacity of the
cable in appx 4] required for a conductor to be protected..."
> I've still got re-wirable fuses - from when I wired the house up about
>25
> years ago, and from memory, only two have ever blown. The first was due to
> only being 5 amp on a lighting circuit drawing more - so I upgraded it to
> 10,
Errr... that sounds a bit dodgy to me. Is it 1mmsq cable you are using?
In that case you may well have just installed yourself something
dangerous. 1mmsq cable is only really rated up to 12A in many domestic
situations - that's continuous - but note that since you are using
rewireables you must apply the derating factor mentioned above making it
12*0.725=8.7A
Whereas a 10A B-type MCB will trip in 0.4s with a fault current of 50A,
it will take (guestimate based on fig 3.2A) 57A for a 3036 fuse.
> and the immersion heater one when it failed. When I hear all those
> stories about MCBs tripping when a bulb blows, I do wonder about the need
> for them.
>
Gotta go out. May respond to this later, but I think the above is more
than enough to chew on for now :-)
> FWIW, I've got individual RCDs protecting sockets that really need them.
>
Hmmm...
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
... "Bother", said Pooh, as his LAN manager went crackers
Jerry.
"Martin Angove" <MJAn...@tridwr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:795896924...@tridwr.demon.co.uk...<big sniup>
>
> > I've still got re-wirable fuses - from when I wired the house up about
> >25
> > years ago, and from memory, only two have ever blown. The first was due
to
> > only being 5 amp on a lighting circuit drawing more - so I upgraded it
to
> > 10,
>
> Errr... that sounds a bit dodgy to me. Is it 1mmsq cable you are using?
I suspect 25 years ago most people were still using 1.5 for lighting.
<another big snip>
> >
> Gotta go out. May respond to this later, but I think the above is more
> than enough to chew on for now :-)
>
Not really, otherwise I really do wonder how people stayed alive 25 years
ago, let alone 50 or more years ago !....
Andy Wade
news:795896924...@tridwr.demon.co.uk...
> The use of rewireable fuses is allowed in the regulations, but they
> don't like it:
> [...]
> such that it cannot be replaced inadvertently by one having a higher
> nominal current.
>
> [Obviously this is impossible for a rewireable fuse]
ITYM "possible" :-) (Or did you mean that compliance with the regulation
would be impossible? - I read it the other way though.)
> Circuits require derating for use with rewireables [...]
"Cables require" rather than "circuits require" would be a better way of
putting it.
> Errr... that sounds a bit dodgy to me. Is it 1mmsq cable you are
> using? In that case you may well have just installed yourself
> something dangerous. 1mmsq cable is only really rated up to 12A in
> many domestic situations - that's continuous - but note that since
> you are using rewireables you must apply the derating factor
> mentioned above making it 12*0.725=8.7A
Bear in mind though that the 0.725 derating factor does not have to be
applied if there is no possibility of overload. If the total installed load
(assuming at least 100W per lampholder) is under 10A then I'd argue that
there's no overload risk and the factor doesn't have to be used. I suppose
that, in principle, someone could fit a 150 or 200W 'bulb' in every
lampholder and thus overload the circuit - but in reality the probability of
this happening is (probably) zero. 200W GLS lamps are pretty rare now and
even 150W ones are getting hard to find in retail outlets.
> Whereas a 10A B-type MCB will trip in 0.4s with a fault current of
> 50A, it will take (guestimate based on fig 3.2A) 57A for a 3036 fuse.
Err, so what? Apply the adiabatic equation with k=115 and you'll find that
1mm^2 will stand 51 A for the max. allowable disconnection time of 5 s.
That current would blow even a 15 A fuse in under 3 s - so there's no way
the cable's not going to be adquately fault-protected, unless the circuit's
ludicrously long and also suffering voltage drop problems.
--
Andy
Dave Stanton
> It's sold everywhere. I just go to B&Q and buy some. (Not that fuses blow
> very often, I hasten to add). I'd replace the fuses with plug in MCBs
> except that the consumer unit is in a very conspicuous place, high up on
> the wall in the corner of the kitchen. Bizarre place to put a CU but then
> it is a Barratt house.
Not really, ours is high up the kitchen wall, better than being tucked
away under the stairs behind all the kids junk. So that when I have been
out to jobs, you have to move a ton of stuff before you can isolate
circuits and the householder stand there watching you do it !!
Dave
--
And you were born knowing all about ms windows....??
Owain
| be an earth wire there with somewhere needed to put it. Technically
| the earth doesn't need to be there at all, the switch and pattress are
| both double insulated pieces of equipment.
However under the wiring regs an earth has to be supplied. 471-08-08 IIRC
Owain
PoP
wrote:
>Not really, ours is high up the kitchen wall, better than being tucked
>away under the stairs behind all the kids junk. So that when I have been
>out to jobs, you have to move a ton of stuff before you can isolate
>circuits and the householder stand there watching you do it !!
The ones that get me are when I go out to do a loft boarding exercise.
You lift the trapdoor to get up there to be met with a pile of stuff
precariously piled high around the loft entrance within arms length of
the opening. Thus the first hour or so is spent making room to get up
there and start cutting boards.
Happened twice so far. I really must update my terms and conditions
about this.
PoP
---
If you need to contact me please submit your comments
via the web form at http://www.anyoldtripe.co.uk. I'll
probably still ignore you but at least I'll get the
message..... :)
Dave Plowman
Martin Angove <MJAn...@tridwr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > I've still got re-wirable fuses - from when I wired the house up about
> >25 years ago, and from memory, only two have ever blown. The first was
> >due to only being 5 amp on a lighting circuit drawing more - so I
> >upgraded it to 10,
> Errr... that sounds a bit dodgy to me. Is it 1mmsq cable you are using?
> In that case you may well have just installed yourself something
> dangerous. 1mmsq cable is only really rated up to 12A in many domestic
> situations - that's continuous - but note that since you are using
> rewireables you must apply the derating factor mentioned above making it
> 12*0.725=8.7A
It's all 1.5mm - I had plenty of it 'in stock'.
--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
Dodgy Sparky
<harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> No, they have real wire in them. Wylex's best.
>
>I have not seen fuse wire on sale for years, what do you use when one
>blows?
Why, a four inch nail, of course.
--
Hopalong Cassidy
Martin Angove
"Andy Wade" <spamb...@ajwade.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> "Martin Angove" wrote in message
> news:795896924...@tridwr.demon.co.uk...
>
> > The use of rewireable fuses is allowed in the regulations, but they
> > don't like it:
> > [...]
> > such that it cannot be replaced inadvertently by one having a higher
> > nominal current.
> >
> > [Obviously this is impossible for a rewireable fuse]
>
> ITYM "possible" :-) (Or did you mean that compliance with the regulation
> would be impossible? - I read it the other way though.)
Erm. Yes, you know what I meant :-)
>
> > Circuits require derating for use with rewireables [...]
>
> "Cables require" rather than "circuits require" would be a better way of
> putting it.
>
Agreed, though perhaps if you were being pedantic you would also want to
point out that fittings should be likewise derated - the 6A light switch
for example.
> > Errr... that sounds a bit dodgy to me. Is it 1mmsq cable you are
> > using? In that case you may well have just installed yourself
> > something dangerous. 1mmsq cable is only really rated up to 12A in
> > many domestic situations - that's continuous - but note that since
> > you are using rewireables you must apply the derating factor
> > mentioned above making it 12*0.725=8.7A
>
> Bear in mind though that the 0.725 derating factor does not have to be
> applied if there is no possibility of overload. If the total installed load
> (assuming at least 100W per lampholder) is under 10A then I'd argue that
> there's no overload risk and the factor doesn't have to be used. I suppose
> that, in principle, someone could fit a 150 or 200W 'bulb' in every
> lampholder and thus overload the circuit - but in reality the probability of
> this happening is (probably) zero. 200W GLS lamps are pretty rare now and
> even 150W ones are getting hard to find in retail outlets.
>
I take your point, but I think that the possibility of overload should
be considered for all circuits where there is the possibility of some
d-i-y intervention. Lighting circuits are possibly the worst as although
you may originally install the thing with one pendant in the centre of
the ceiling, the next owner may decide to install half a dozen
uplighters on the walls or a dirty great spotlight bar. For example, my
father has recently replaced (ok, I did it for him) a single pendant
fitting in a room with a 4*50W GU10 fitting from B&Q. So from being 100W
design load, 150W nominal maximum, actual bulb 23W (CF) the thing now
has 200W actual.
I was in a house recently which had originally been wired with
rewireable fuses and 1mmsq cable for the lights (1982), and all lights
on one fuse. As it was a small house this amounted to just 7 fittings,
design load 700W; well within the limits. Imagine the situation where
the owners have been watching House Doctor or similar and decide to:
Replace kitchen pendant with string of halogens - 100W design might
become 150W actual.
Put a feature fitting in the living room - 100W design might become 200W
actual.
Add some wall uplighters on dimmers for "mood" in the living room -
another 240W (4*60W) not in the original scheme of things.
Swap the bathroom fitting for recessed halogens - 100W design becomes
200W or more actual.
Install a 500W PIR-controlled floodlight for the decking they've just
built out back. "But it's a light, it can't go on the ring main!"
The list could go on... It's not wrong, you just have more headroom with
an MCB than a rewireable, and slightly better protection to boot.
> > Whereas a 10A B-type MCB will trip in 0.4s with a fault current of
> > 50A, it will take (guestimate based on fig 3.2A) 57A for a 3036 fuse.
>
> Err, so what? Apply the adiabatic equation with k=115 and you'll find that
> 1mm^2 will stand 51 A for the max. allowable disconnection time of 5 s.
> That current would blow even a 15 A fuse in under 3 s - so there's no way
> the cable's not going to be adquately fault-protected, unless the circuit's
> ludicrously long and also suffering voltage drop problems.
Yeah, I didn't tease that one out properly. You're quite right, it was
just the last thing I spotted before having to disappear. Not "best
practice" though.
I haven't said it on this thread, though I have elsewhere; I'm not
against rewireables per-se. It's just that with MCBs being so cheap
these days, and cartridge fuses combining some features of both (they
protect almost as well as MCBs, and don't (usually) blow when a bulb
pops) I really can't see the reason to continue using rewireables. Apart
from anything else, they're so darned inconvenient when they *do* go!
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
... You're twisted and sick; I like that in a person!
Z
woodscrews or self-tappers instead of the correct 3.5mm raised
countersunk machine screws.
Possibly a previous tenant.
Check on or around your consumer unit (fuseboard) for a label saying the
installation has been tested to the current edition of the wiring
regulations. If there's not one there or the date is way before you
moved in (leaving plenty time for the council to have fixed up the house
and re-let it to you) advise the council that the installation wasn't
tested. They may test your premises. This may take the best part of a
day including non-wiring repairs
One of their electricians will have to fit a new backbox if the threads
don't re-tap.
Be prepared for a bit of a wait as Council tradesmen are quite busy,
though this is near year end and budgets are spent and the rental income
doesn't come anywhere near the costs of repairs to council housing
stock.
In article <c3c606$25t2i6$1...@ID-21779.news.uni-berlin.de>, DarkHorse
<REMOVEcinem...@breathe.com> writes
>Apologies for not knowing the correct names for the bits'n'bobs
>mentioned below!
>
>I noticed that all the light switches, in my rented flat, are screwed
>in with slightly oversized screws.
>
>This means that they don't flush neatly with the light switch casing.
>
>Further investigation revealed that the screws that should have been
>used, are still attached to the inside of the casing, i.e. unused.
>
>Also, that the light switch casings are not screwed into those metal
>'boxes' usually seen behind light switches, but instead into bits of
>wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the wall.
>
>This explains why the 'wrong' screws were used, i.e. they are pointy
>at the end (so that they can screw into the bits of wood) instead of
>flat.
>
>At least one of the switches is definitely lose, and I'm sure the
>landlord (i.e. the Council) would agree to fix that, but it would be
>great if I could get them to 'tidy up' all the other switches too.
>
>However, I'm sure they will only do it if the present set-up
>contravenes safety regulations or 'good-practice'.
>
>Does anyone know if any safety guidelines have been contravened?
>
>thanks
>DH
--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.
Z
<REMOVEcinem...@breathe.com> writes
and test electrical installations in rented properties at the change of
occupancy. The Electricians themselves are normally on bonus so it is in
their interest to find faults as not much time is paid for plain old
test. You wouldn't believe some of the DIY stuff that has to be stripped
out, the number of otherwise serviceable painted accessories and boxes
which have to be swapped out due to dodgy tenants.
This was my job for about 6 months.
Just call your council and say your switch is broken. If they ask if you
have other lights in the room tell them no and it'll be a higher
priority ticket as they can't leave you without light.
Z
Bloomfield <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>DarkHorse wrote :
>> Apologies for not knowing the correct names for the bits'n'bobs
>> mentioned below!
>>
>> I noticed that all the light switches, in my rented flat, are screwed
>> in with slightly oversized screws.
>>
>> This means that they don't flush neatly with the light switch casing.
>>
>> Further investigation revealed that the screws that should have been
>> used, are still attached to the inside of the casing, i.e. unused.
>>
>> Also, that the light switch casings are not screwed into those metal
>> 'boxes' usually seen behind light switches, but instead into bits of
>> wood haphazardly jammed into the hole in the wall.
>
Surface boxes are plastic, fastfix flush boxes are plastic and flange
boxes are plastic.
I think you mean if there is a metal box behind a switch it must be
earthed.
Council properties usually have surface mounted accessories anyway.
Z
<ti...@sabretechnology.co.uk> writes
>In article <mesnews.934d7d43....@tiscali.co.uk>, Harry
>Bloomfield <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>>
>>fuse wire then it is long overdue for rewiring. MCB's (trips) have
>>been used instead of fuses for a great many years and my own home has
>>twice been rewired since MCB's appeared.
>>
>built in the 1980's, so a desperate need for rewiring does not
>necessarily follow.
Fuses are indeed a perfectly adequate means of disconnection of supply
if they are rated according to the correct tables.
Z
>> Sorry but this is [popular] nonsense. Rewirable fuses meet the latest
>> regs and are still sometimes installed.
>
>There is no reason to have fuse wire, though. They are inherently more
>dangerous than other protection methods. At the very least, they should be
>swapped with cartridge fuses, which don't set fire to the house when they
>blow.
>
>
>
Dreck.
Z
<b1o2b3...@rl.ac.uk> writes
>
>"Tim Mitchell" <ti...@sabretechnology.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:6vS3C1Th...@tega.co.uk...
>> In article <mesnews.934d7d43....@tiscali.co.uk>, Harry
>> Bloomfield <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> >Are the main fuses original and untouched? If they are fuses, with fuse
>> >wire then it is long overdue for rewiring. MCB's (trips) have been used
>> >instead of fuses for a great many years and my own home has twice been
>> >rewired since MCB's appeared.
>> >
>> My house has fuses rather than MCB's and is a relatively modern house
>> built in the 1980's, so a desperate need for rewiring does not
>> necessarily follow.
>
>yours, like mine, are cartridge fuses.
>
>
disconnection of supply if rated in accordance with the appropriate
tables. But if someone sticks in a nail if they don't have the correct
fuse wire or if they don't know the size of fuse wire to use...
Z
Bloomfield <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> writes
>DarkHorse laid this down on his screen :
>> I had another look, and I suppose they are 'box-like'. The lose one I
>> mentioned is badly split though, which makes it look more haphazard.
>>
>>> Is the cable brightly coloured plastic, or perhaps something much
>>>older such
>>> as dull coloured rubber or cable with a waxy cotton woven outer cover?
>>
>> There are 2 red plastic covered wires connected to the switches and a
>> yellow/green wire not connected to anything. These 3 wires come out of
>> a black plastic tube. This is the same for all the light switches.
>
>OK....
>
>The wooden boxes suggest that the original installation was completed I
>would guess sometime pre WWII. Down the walls to the switches there
>will be metal conduits which has enabled them to rewire the lighting
>circuits. The fact that there are earths provided which are sleaved
>with green/yellow suggests it was rewired post about 1975 (anyone able
>to confirm this?).
NICEIC newsletter (57 /58 iirc) chronicles the changes in wiring methods
to asist in dating the installation as required in their forms.
>So the only thing which needs to be done to correct the obvious
>problem, is for the wooden boxes to be replaced with proper metal
>boxes. It might be worth chasing your landlord to get this done.
>
--
ARWadsworth
"Peter Watson" <pe...@pwatson.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ac50359d...@news.plus.net...
> Does anyone know why wooden boxes fell out of favour? On a more general
> point why was it comon to uses wooden boxes for light switches but metal
> boxes for sockets (at least in my 1959 house)?
I thought at that time it was more common to make a hole in the skirting
board and screw a single socket directly to the wood at just the correct
height to stop a plug being used without putting massive strain on the flex.
Along with the then requirement to have three 4mm^2 cables twisted tightly
together and cut to the shortest possible length as to fit in the terminals.
--
Adam
adamwadsworth@(REMOVETHIS)blueyonder.co.uk
Rod Hewitt
news:Tma7ZACR$OXA...@imaris.demon.co.uk:
> Fuses with fuse wire are also a perfectly adequate means of
> disconnection of supply if rated in accordance with the appropriate
> tables. But if someone sticks in a nail if they don't have the correct
> fuse wire or if they don't know the size of fuse wire to use...
Can you post a link to a list of the amperage ratings of various common
types of nail? I guess you get them in three types: slow blow, fast blow
and hammer blow?
--
Rod
DarkHorse
> "DarkHorse" wrote
> | There are 2 red plastic covered wires connected to the switches and
> | a yellow/green wire not connected to anything. These 3 wires come out
> | of a black plastic tube. This is the same for all the light switches.
>
> It sounds as though you have had a rewire reusing 'singles' in some existing
> conduit; I wonder if the switches were originally round ones fitted on top
> of circular conduit boxes, replaced with square ones perhaps in the 50s (I
> have seen black bakelite square pattress switches) using wood plugs into the
> wall to hold the switch, then subsequently replaced again with new switches
> but the installer re-used the 1950s rewirer's wooden plugs or blocks. Shoddy
> work but not necessarily criminal.
>
> Incidentally, are you sure that conduit(tube)'s plastic? It might be fibre
> which has started disintegrating.
It looks plastic to me. I can't see signs of disintegration.
> | I assume you mean the 'fuse-box'? I'm not sure what sort of fuses they
> | are, but it says on it 'Residual Current Operated Circuit Breaker'.
> | Incidentally, I pressed the test switch, and it cuts out all the power
> | except to the lights.
>
> Sounds like a split load consumer unit, again that's fairly modern.
>
> | There's an NICEIC sticker on it, with last inspection date May 2003
> | written on it.
>
> Any indication who wrote it -
Nope.
> if it's one of the council's own electricians
> who also did the wiring, well, they'd pass their own work wouldn't they.
> | > If you have any doubts or concerns, find a qualified professional
> | > willing to do a survey and written report on the condition of your
> | > installation and its safety. The council would not be able to argue
> | > with that.
> | I'd love to do that but I can't afford it.
>
> If you can upload photos of the inside of your lightswitch, and your
> meter/fusebox, to a webserver somewhere (your free NTL webspace?) and post
> the URL we might be able to recognise the particular bodge that has been
> applied.
Good idea, except I don't have a digital camera and have never
uploaded anything to any webspace!
> Owain
>
> PS Rented property - you should have permanently wired in mains powered
> smoke detectors.
Would you be surprised to learn that I don't even have battery
operated ones?
Is there a user-friendly site that lists requirements such as these
for rented properties?
DH
DarkHorse
> In other words the accessories are fitted to the flush back box with
> woodscrews or self-tappers instead of the correct 3.5mm raised
> countersunk machine screws.
>
> Possibly a previous tenant.
>
> Check on or around your consumer unit (fuseboard) for a label saying the
> installation has been tested to the current edition of the wiring
> regulations. If there's not one there or the date is way before you
> moved in (leaving plenty time for the council to have fixed up the house
> and re-let it to you) advise the council that the installation wasn't
> tested. They may test your premises. This may take the best part of a
> day including non-wiring repairs
On the fuse box NICEIC sticker, it says that the periodic
test/inspection should be to BS7671 standard. Date of last inpection
is written as 02/05/03. I've found a London Electricity 'Installation
certificate' signed and dated 06/05/03. I moved in a couple of weeks
after that date. The Installation certificate declares compliance with
'Regulation 27 of the Electricity Supply Regulation 1988 as
ammended..' etc.
> One of their electricians will have to fit a new backbox if the threads
> don't re-tap.
>
> Be prepared for a bit of a wait as Council tradesmen are quite busy,
> though this is near year end and budgets are spent and the rental income
> doesn't come anywhere near the costs of repairs to council housing
> stock.
> DarkHorse <REMOVEcinem...@breathe.com> writes
There were no Zeds so I thought I'd better put a couple in there!
cheers
DH
Jerry.
"Z" <po...@imaris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Tma7ZACR$OXA...@imaris.demon.co.uk...
<snip>
> Fuses with fuse wire are also a perfectly adequate means of
> disconnection of supply if rated in accordance with the appropriate
> tables. But if someone sticks in a nail if they don't have the correct
> fuse wire or if they don't know the size of fuse wire to use...
Just as they could use a bit of coat hanger to bridge were a constantly
tripping MCB should be - you can't legislate for idiots !
G&M
"Jerry." <use...@scarts.f9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Hpk7c.25209$Y%6.27...@wards.force9.net...
>
> Just as they could use a bit of coat hanger to bridge were a constantly
> tripping MCB should be - you can't legislate for idiots !
>
They try to in the States though. Car batteries have a statutory required
label warning that drinking the contents could be fatal.
Personally I think this cancellation of Darwinism will inevitably lead to
the end of the human race as we know it.
Jerry.
"G&M" <m11...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c3kvcb$nm9$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
<snip>
>
> Personally I think this cancellation of Darwinism will inevitably lead to
> the end of the human race as we know it.
>
I've got news for you, it already has ! :~(
Owain
| On the fuse box NICEIC sticker, it says that the periodic
| test/inspection should be to BS7671 standard. Date of last inpection
| is written as 02/05/03. I've found a London Electricity 'Installation
| certificate' signed and dated 06/05/03. I moved in a couple of weeks
| after that date. The Installation certificate declares compliance with
| 'Regulation 27 of the Electricity Supply Regulation 1988 as
| ammended..' etc.
27.-(1) No supplier shall be compelled to commence or, subject to
regulation 28, to continue to give a supply to any consumer unless he is
reasonably satisfied that each part of the consumer's installation is so
constructed, installed, protected and used, so far as is reasonably
practicable, as to prevent danger and not to cause undue interference with
the supplier's system or with the supply to others.
(2) Any consumer's installation which complies with the provisions of
the Institution of Electrical Engineers Regulations shall be deemed to
comply with the requirements of this regulation as to safety.
Note that the requirements of (1) are considerably less onerous than the IEE
Regulations.
Owain
Owain
| > PS Rented property - you should have permanently wired in mains
| > powered smoke detectors.
| Would you be surprised to learn that I don't even have battery
| operated ones?
The London Fire Brigade issued a report in 2001 which, for the first time,
investigated all fire deaths in London, ... 85% of these recorded deaths
took place in the home, and of those, 77% did not have a smoke alarm fitted.
In summary the study, which researched the Brigade's database of 27,000
fires, showed that you were more likely to die in a fire at your home if
you:
are over 60
are a smoker
enjoy a few evening drinks
live in Tower Hamlets, Brent or Westminster
do not own a smoke alarm
suffer from some kind of disability
http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/fire_safety/community_fire_safety/fire_deaths.
asp
| Is there a user-friendly site that lists requirements such as these
| for rented properties?
It may not be compulsory unless your house is registered as a House of
Multiple Occupancy. However it is certainly good practice, and encouraged by
the Government's Guidance Note:
What type of alarms should local authorities provide?
10. The Approved Document to Part B of the Building Regulations recommends
the provision of hard-wired smoke alarms in new dwellings and dwellings
where a loft conversion is to be made. This Department recommends that,
wherever possible, local authorities should seek to provide hard-wired
alarms in their dwellings. This would most sensibly be achieved as part of
large scale improvement programmes.
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_housing/documents/page/odpm_hous
e_602533.hcsp
or Home > Housing > Information for local authority housing officers > Other
housing policies > Smoke alarms in local authority housing
However, whatever possessions the tenant moves in with, the landlord will
always be responsible for safety involving gas installations and appliances.
These must be subject to annual safety checks, with proper records kept.
Regulations also cover the safety of electrical installations and appliances
while common sense dictates that carbon monoxide and smoke detectors are
fitted in all let property.
http://www.arla.co.uk/btl/furnishnotfurnish.htm
The Accredited Property Scheme covers all types of private rented property
from single houses, to flats, and all types of houses in multiple
occupation, including student accommodation. The relevant standards are
based primarily upon existing legislation plus facilities normally expected
in the 21st Century and are therefore considered a satisfactory decent
standard. The scheme is entirely voluntary.
Smoke alarms should be provided in all rented accommodation. However, the
standard for multi-let properties, because of the higher risk, requires the
provision of adequate means of alarm; fire protection and escape route for
tenants. The precise specification will be determined following an
inspection by an Environmental Health Officer/ Fire Protection Officer
depending on the circumstances. Fire precautions must be well maintained and
alarm systems tested regularly. Requirements will include either a Part 6
mains interlinked or L2 systems
http://www.chestercc.gov.uk/community-services/housing/Initiatives/Accredite
dprop.html
The Housing Act 1985 requires all accommodation to be maintained to a
reasonable standard and be fit for occupation. If you encounter any of the
following problems it is likely that your property does not meet these
minimum standards:
... dangerous gas or electric supplies and appliances
If you do experience problems such as these, first notify the owner/agent
in writing asking for immediate action/repair. If, after a reasonable time,
the problem has not been remedied, contact the Private Sector Housing Team,
Environment and Development Department at the local council offices where
you can obtain relevant advice.
http://www.dmu.ac.uk/study/student_services/accommodation/safety_home.jsp?Co
mponentID=934&SourcePageID=927
Shelterline Housing Helpline = 0808 800 4444
Under the Housing Act 1985, all houses must be fit for human habitation.
...
Tell the landlord about your worries in a letter, asking for a response
within a reasonable period (e.g. two weeks). Remind the landlord of the
common law ëduty of careí to ensure that occupants are safe. ...
as a result of your landlord neglecting to carry out the duties set out
in this leaflet, then you may be able to take action in the county court
under the Defective Premises Act 1972, Occupiers Liability Act 1957 or
common law negligence. ...
http://www.shelternet.org.uk/files/downloads/Fire_safety.pdf
Owain
Andy Wade
> Agreed, though perhaps if you were being pedantic you would also want
> to point out that fittings should be likewise derated - the 6A light
> switch for example.
Err, I'm not sure what you're getting at there. There's no problem using a
6A switch on a 10A circuit, provided that it's not switching more than
6A-worth of load. Nor is the switch rating affected by the use (or not) of
the rewireable fuse.
> I take your point, but I think that the possibility of overload
> should be considered for all circuits where there is the possibility
> of some d-i-y intervention. Lighting circuits are possibly the worst
> as although you may originally install the thing with one pendant in
> the centre of the ceiling, the next owner may decide to install half
> a dozen uplighters on the walls or a dirty great spotlight bar. For
> example, my father has recently replaced (ok, I did it for him) a
> single pendant fitting in a room with a 4*50W GU10 fitting from B&Q.
> [etc.]
That's fair comment. The pedantic view is that alterations and additions
are completely outside the scope of the original design and that the circuit
loading should be re-considered as soon as you add so much as a 40W lamp.
Certainly if additions are leading to overloading then their installer has
not complied with BS 7671 and could not give a valid 'minor works'
certificate. But, yes, overload for the reasons you describe is in reality
"reasonably forseeable" - so I take your point.
--
Andy
Lurch
<spamb...@ajwade.clara.co.uk> strung together this:
>"Martin Angove" wrote in message
>news:4898dd924...@tridwr.demon.co.uk...
>
>> Agreed, though perhaps if you were being pedantic you would also want
>> to point out that fittings should be likewise derated - the 6A light
>> switch for example.
>
>Err, I'm not sure what you're getting at there. There's no problem using a
>6A switch on a 10A circuit, provided that it's not switching more than
>6A-worth of load. Nor is the switch rating affected by the use (or not) of
>the rewireable fuse.
>
Although 'technically' that is correct, it is not allowed in an
installation complying with BS7671.
>> I take your point, but I think that the possibility of overload
>> should be considered for all circuits where there is the possibility
>> of some d-i-y intervention. Lighting circuits are possibly the worst
>> as although you may originally install the thing with one pendant in
>> the centre of the ceiling, the next owner may decide to install half
>> a dozen uplighters on the walls or a dirty great spotlight bar. For
>> example, my father has recently replaced (ok, I did it for him) a
>> single pendant fitting in a room with a 4*50W GU10 fitting from B&Q.
>> [etc.]
>
>That's fair comment. The pedantic view is that alterations and additions
>are completely outside the scope of the original design and that the circuit
>loading should be re-considered as soon as you add so much as a 40W lamp.
>Certainly if additions are leading to overloading then their installer has
>not complied with BS 7671 and could not give a valid 'minor works'
>certificate. But, yes, overload for the reasons you describe is in reality
>"reasonably forseeable" - so I take your point.
>
If you add diversity to it you could get away with a lot...
--
SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.
Andrew Gabriel
"DarkHorse" <REMOVEcinem...@breathe.com> writes:
>
> On the fuse box NICEIC sticker, it says that the periodic
> test/inspection should be to BS7671 standard. Date of last inpection
> is written as 02/05/03. I've found a London Electricity 'Installation
> certificate' signed and dated 06/05/03. I moved in a couple of weeks
> after that date. The Installation certificate declares compliance with
> 'Regulation 27 of the Electricity Supply Regulation 1988 as
> ammended..' etc.
Amusing - The Electricity Supply Regulations 1988 were entirely
revoked on 31 Jan 2003, 3 months before your London Electricity
certificate was issued ;-)
Anyway, Regulation 27 just says that a supplier is not compelled
to provide a supply if they are concerned that the installation
might not be safe or might cause indue interferance to others.
An installation which conforms to Wiring Regs is deemed to be
considered safe for this purpose.
--
Andrew Gabriel
Martin Angove
Dave Plowman <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <795896924...@tridwr.demon.co.uk>,
> Martin Angove <MJAn...@tridwr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > I've still got re-wirable fuses - from when I wired the house up about
> > >25 years ago, and from memory, only two have ever blown. The first was
> > >due to only being 5 amp on a lighting circuit drawing more - so I
> > >upgraded it to 10,
>
> > Errr... that sounds a bit dodgy to me. Is it 1mmsq cable you are using?
> > In that case you may well have just installed yourself something
> > dangerous. 1mmsq cable is only really rated up to 12A in many domestic
> > situations - that's continuous - but note that since you are using
> > rewireables you must apply the derating factor mentioned above making it
> > 12*0.725=8.7A
>
> It's all 1.5mm - I had plenty of it 'in stock'.
>
That's ok then (I think I recall you mentioning that somewhere
previously, now I come to think about it :-) 1.5mm2 makes 15A in the
same circumstances as 1mm2 makes 12A, *0.725 that makes nearly 11A.
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
... Don't blame me! I just test the thing!
Martin Angove
"DarkHorse" <REMOVEcinem...@breathe.com> wrote:
> "Owain" <owain...@stirlingcity.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > If you can upload photos of the inside of your lightswitch, and your
> > meter/fusebox, to a webserver somewhere (your free NTL webspace?) and post
> > the URL we might be able to recognise the particular bodge that has been
> > applied.
>
> Good idea, except I don't have a digital camera and have never
> uploaded anything to any webspace!
>
Take an ordinary photograph and have it processed at somewhere like
Boots or Jessops (or Bonusprint for postal) who will also scan the
negatives and give you a CD for an extra quid or two if you ask them
nicely.
:-)
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
... Syntax is another name for conscience money.
Martin Angove
bill....@microsoft.com (Lurch) wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:55:58 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "Andy Wade"
> <spamb...@ajwade.clara.co.uk> strung together this:
>
> >"Martin Angove" wrote in message
> >news:4898dd924...@tridwr.demon.co.uk...
> >
>
> >> I take your point, but I think that the possibility of overload
> >> should be considered for all circuits where there is the possibility
> >> of some d-i-y intervention. Lighting circuits are possibly the worst
> >> as although you may originally install the thing with one pendant in
> >> the centre of the ceiling, the next owner may decide to install half
> >> a dozen uplighters on the walls or a dirty great spotlight bar. For
> >> example, my father has recently replaced (ok, I did it for him) a
> >> single pendant fitting in a room with a 4*50W GU10 fitting from B&Q.
> >> [etc.]
> >
> >That's fair comment. The pedantic view is that alterations and additions
> >are completely outside the scope of the original design and that the circuit
> >loading should be re-considered as soon as you add so much as a 40W lamp.
> >Certainly if additions are leading to overloading then their installer has
> >not complied with BS 7671 and could not give a valid 'minor works'
> >certificate. But, yes, overload for the reasons you describe is in reality
> >"reasonably forseeable" - so I take your point.
> >
> If you add diversity to it you could get away with a lot...
You have to be careful there though. For a lighting circuit you design
to the *actual* current of each fitting, or 100W where it could take a
variety of bulbs - BC and ES fittings. It would seem a simple matter
then to apply the OSG table 1B diversity of 66% total, but this has to
be done with a great deal of care. In particular, if a PIR-controlled
light (of any wattage) is connected to the lighting circuit, I'd count
it 100% as it could come on any time, for almost any length of time,
likewise any dusk-to-dawn lighting.
Hall and stair lighting is also slightly dubious at 66% as many people
- certainly people I know - both fit "bright" lights in these areas and
leave them on throughout the evening. These days, of course, they should
be fitting high-wattage compact fluorescents, but some people still
don't know they exist, or prefer the light from a 100W filament.
In other words, instead of saying "I've got 900W of connected lighting
on this circuit, my design load is therefore 600W" (leaving aside the
fact that a conventional 5A/6A lighting circuit is well over-specced
even for 900W), I would think along these lines:
"I've got a 300W PIR flood light, and 200W of dusk-to-dawn perimeter
lighting. I'll count those as 100% The other 400W is standard lighting
which I will count as about 270W (66%). My design load is therefore
770W."
It's all too much detail in reality. 6A is theoretically capable of
delivering 1440W up to a maximum circuit length (OSG table 7.1) of 38m
(don't forget the switch-drop to the last light!). For all but the
largest houses or most complex lighting schemes this is going to be more
than enough.
Andy's point about any additions or alterations needing to be assessed
against the circuit design is, of course, correct, but as I pointed out
and I think he agrees, particularly in the case of lighting circuits it
makes a great deal of sense in the design stages to allow for a *lot* of
unsupervised DIY work. We could try blaming Laurence and Carol and that
annoying American woman though :-)
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
... DOS Tip #3 : Don't use DOS.
Lurch
<MJAn...@tridwr.demon.co.uk> strung together this:
>You have to be careful there though. For a lighting circuit you design
>to the *actual* current of each fitting, or 100W where it could take a
>variety of bulbs - BC and ES fittings. It would seem a simple matter
>then to apply the OSG table 1B diversity of 66% total, but this has to
>be done with a great deal of care. In particular, if a PIR-controlled
>light (of any wattage) is connected to the lighting circuit, I'd count
>it 100% as it could come on any time, for almost any length of time,
>likewise any dusk-to-dawn lighting.
>
>Hall and stair lighting is also slightly dubious at 66% as many people
>- certainly people I know - both fit "bright" lights in these areas and
>leave them on throughout the evening. These days, of course, they should
>be fitting high-wattage compact fluorescents, but some people still
>don't know they exist, or prefer the light from a 100W filament.
>
>In other words, instead of saying "I've got 900W of connected lighting
>on this circuit, my design load is therefore 600W" (leaving aside the
>fact that a conventional 5A/6A lighting circuit is well over-specced
>even for 900W), I would think along these lines:
>
>"I've got a 300W PIR flood light, and 200W of dusk-to-dawn perimeter
>lighting. I'll count those as 100% The other 400W is standard lighting
>which I will count as about 270W (66%). My design load is therefore
>770W."
>
I totally agree but the idea of diversity is that not every single
light will be on at once, not whether it'll come on full brightness at
any time. So you could have 15 pendants\battenholders but according to
the regs only 66% of those lights will be on at once, equating to
about 1KW. Although as everyone says, 100W can quite easily become
2-400W with a simple fitting change.
>Andy's point about any additions or alterations needing to be assessed
>against the circuit design is, of course, correct, but as I pointed out
>and I think he agrees, particularly in the case of lighting circuits it
>makes a great deal of sense in the design stages to allow for a *lot* of
>unsupervised DIY work.
True, when I started out as an electrician it was widely regerded as
12 fittings per circuit maximum which usually ended up as being 1
curcuit for upstairs and one for downstairs and possibly another for
halogen security lighting. But now it's more common to find 2 circuits
per floor for the inevitable changing of light fittings.
--
SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.
Martin Angove
bill....@microsoft.com (Lurch) wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:10:32 GMT, in uk.d-i-y Martin Angove
> <MJAn...@tridwr.demon.co.uk> strung together this:
>
[...]
> >"I've got a 300W PIR flood light, and 200W of dusk-to-dawn perimeter
> >lighting. I'll count those as 100% The other 400W is standard lighting
> >which I will count as about 270W (66%). My design load is therefore
> >770W."
> >
> I totally agree but the idea of diversity is that not every single
> light will be on at once, not whether it'll come on full brightness at
> any time. So you could have 15 pendants\battenholders but according to
> the regs only 66% of those lights will be on at once, equating to
> about 1KW.
The point I'm making is nothing to do with "full power" - a 60W bulb
when you've allowed 100W - it *is* to do with "everything coming on at
once" - I would contend that dusk-to-dawn lights should be counted as
100% precisely because they are on all the time. Although a PIR-operated
light *shouldn't* be on all the time, the fact is that 300W or 500W
floodlights are often so badly installed that they come on far too often
or for far longer periods than they should, and I would be uncomfortable
including them in the diversity calculations.
[...]
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
... Some Do, Some Don't, Some Will and Some Won't.
Dave Plowman
Martin Angove <MJAn...@tridwr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > It's all 1.5mm - I had plenty of it 'in stock'.
> >
> That's ok then (I think I recall you mentioning that somewhere
> previously, now I come to think about it :-) 1.5mm2 makes 15A in the
> same circumstances as 1mm2 makes 12A, *0.725 that makes nearly 11A.
I'd add that there are separate lighting circuits to each floor, as well
as rings, so there isn't any problems with earth loop impedance.
--
*All generalizations are false.
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Andy Wade
>> Err, I'm not sure what you're getting at there. There's no problem
>> using a 6A switch on a 10A circuit, provided that it's not switching
>> more than 6A-worth of load.
> Although 'technically' that is correct, it is not allowed in an
> installation complying with BS7671.
Sorry, I don't buy that. Why is it not allowed? Where in BS 7671 does it
say it isn't? Which regulations are being violated? Why is it different
from, say, using 20A control switches on a 32A (ring) circuit?
--
Andy
Andy Wade
> You have to be careful there though. For a lighting circuit you
> design to the *actual* current of each fitting, or 100W where it
> could take a variety of bulbs - BC and ES fittings. It would seem a
> simple matter then to apply the OSG table 1B diversity of 66% total,
> but this has to be done with a great deal of care.
There's a old misunderstanding of the diversity rules being perpetuated in
this thread. Table 1B does not apply to a single circuit; Table 1A does.
Table 1A effectively says that the diversity factor to be applied when
designing a lighting circuit is 100%. The design current must equal the
total installed load, with an allowance for future expansion if you wish (we
could call this the Bowen-Smillie multiplier). All lights can be switched
on and the circuit will not be overloaded.
Table 1B is for a circuit supplying a group of final circuits, i.e. a
distribution circuit or sub-main feed to a dis-board - or, in the context of
a normal house installation, the consumer unit. What this is saying is that
you can allow 66% diversity to the lighting load's contribution to the total
maximum demand (MD) of the house - so each 6A circuit can be considered to
contribute 4A to the MD. Table 1B works on the assumption that the
probability of all circuits being fully loaded is tantamount to zero.
If you apply Table 1B rigorously to many house installations you'll discover
that you really ought to have a 150 or 200A supply - but that's another
story.
--
Andy
Lurch
<spamb...@ajwade.clara.co.uk> strung together this:
>"Lurch" wrote in message news:405e146d...@news-text.dsl.pipex.com...
I had a feeling someone was going to ask that but I can't actually
find a specific definitive reference to it in BS7671. I did realise
that I may have got this information from 'guidance' rather than the
regs. And I also thought of the example you used above right after
posting. I personally would keep 10A rated switches on a 10A circuit,
and 6A switches on a 6A circuit, just my opinion. So, to summise, I
wholeheartedly agree with your original statement on the rating of the
switch and retract my comment.
--
SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.
Z
<REMOVEcinem...@breathe.com> writes
Thankz,
MY spam filter prevented me mailing another NG.
Martin Angove
In message <107999956...@despina.uk.clara.net>,
"Andy Wade" <spamb...@ajwade.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
> There's a old misunderstanding of the diversity rules being perpetuated in
> this thread. Table 1B does not apply to a single circuit; Table 1A does.
That's what I thought... until I read the thing. It's the heading in the
first column - bloomin' confusing! I'd missed the bit in the
introduction on p84. I can't even blame late-night posting this time,
though I had just finished work :-)
Thanks.
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
... Proceed with Caution - Twisted Mind Under Construction!
Christian McArdle
> > dangerous than other protection methods. At the very least, they should
> > be swapped with cartridge fuses, which don't set fire to the house when
> > they blow.
>
> Why would that be, unless the fuse is of far too high a rating for the
> circuit?
Have you seen one blow? Showers of sparks and intense white light. I would
prefer such pyrotechnics INSIDE the fuse cartridge, not showered over the
carpet/dry dusty cupboard.
Christian.
John Rumm
> Have you seen one blow? Showers of sparks and intense white light. I would
> prefer such pyrotechnics INSIDE the fuse cartridge, not showered over the
> carpet/dry dusty cupboard.
Would have thought that is why boards like my rewireable wylex unit have
a cover that goes over all of the fuses....
--
Cheers,
John.
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Christian McArdle
> a cover that goes over all of the fuses....
I'm not sure I've seen one with the cover still present. Most people chuck
them away after changing the sodding fuse wire one too many times. My old
house was always blowing the 5A fuse wire. The circuit wasn't even
particularly highly loaded (150W of fluorescent max, no incandescent). I got
through 2 cards of the filth and only lived there a couple of years. I
suspect the rather odd construction of the fuse carrier pinched the fuse
wire and introduced a weak point. Either that or something to do with the
fluorescent tube fitting in the kitchen. Quite simply, I see no purpose for
a wire fuse carrier, when a cartridge fuse carrier is superior in every
respect. A simple ban on them would suffice, not that many are fitted these
days.
Christian.
John Rumm
>>Would have thought that is why boards like my rewireable wylex unit have
>>a cover that goes over all of the fuses....
>
>
> I'm not sure I've seen one with the cover still present. Most people chuck
> them away after changing the sodding fuse wire one too many times. My old
;-) yup - most I have seen would confirm that. I am still the proud
owner (and user!) of the one on my one though!
(although not for much longer - I will need more ways when I build the
loft conversion so I think it is time to swap it out for something a
little less "depricated".
> house was always blowing the 5A fuse wire. The circuit wasn't even
> particularly highly loaded (150W of fluorescent max, no incandescent). I got
Must admit to not needing to change any fuses for best part of ten years
- then I made the mistake of installing a light fitting with mains power
halogens. A couple of times a bulb has failed and taken out the
downstais lighting fuse. (Clomping one of the bulbs with the end of the
vacuum cleaner pipe the other week did neither any favours either ;-)
> fluorescent tube fitting in the kitchen. Quite simply, I see no purpose for
> a wire fuse carrier, when a cartridge fuse carrier is superior in every
except cost of replacement fuses
> respect. A simple ban on them would suffice, not that many are fitted these
> days.
Well they are depricated in the regs - so as you say it is unlikely that
many more will be fitted. No reason to rip out all the existing ones
until their natural end of life though.
Christian McArdle
Well an HRC fuse costs under a quid, so it is pretty academic. The 5A
carrier for mine actually fitted standard plug fuses at around 10p each. I
don't know if this is because the 5A HRC fuse matches in size, or just the
carrier design. I never needed to change it, anyway.
Christian.
Dave Plowman
Christian McArdle <cmcar...@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm not sure I've seen one with the cover still present. Most people
> chuck them away after changing the sodding fuse wire one too many times.
A re-wirable fuse doesn't blow without reason - and I've never had a bulb
blowing take one, unlike the common tales of MCBs tripping. If fuses are
constantly blowing the wiring installation is a mess and should be sorted
- regardless of how it's protected.
FWIW, I've had precisely two fuses blow in about 25 years - one for the
immersion when that rotted through, and one on a lighting circuit where I
increased the load beyond 5 amps.
--
*Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental
Jerry.
"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:NiY9c.28028$Y%6.32...@wards.force9.net...
> Christian McArdle wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> > respect. A simple ban on them would suffice, not that many are fitted
these
> > days.
>
> Well they are depricated in the regs - so as you say it is unlikely that
> many more will be fitted. No reason to rip out all the existing ones
> until their natural end of life though.
>
More to the point, a ban on re wireable fuses at the same time as a ban on
unlicensed electrical work and a restriction on the supply of anything more
than standard 13 amp plugs would mean far more work for a few over priced
licensed electricians. Me cynical, no.....
Andrew Gabriel
I know they fit, but you must never use a BS1362 plugtop fuse
in a BS1631 Consumer Unit fuse carrier -- it doesn't have
sufficient current breaking capacity. If there was a short
circuit and you have a low impedance supply, a plugtop fuse
in a consumer unit could fail to safely interrupt the current.
--
Andrew Gabriel
Christian McArdle
> blowing take one, unlike the common tales of MCBs tripping.
Well, it never blew when I put the cartridge fuse carrier in. My suspicion
is that the weird kinked route that the fuse wire was required to take
resulted in it being almost impossible not to damage the fuse wire when
installing, probably reducing its capacity dramatically.
Christian.