Using Earth wire as switched Live?

[PeterC]

Just bought an extractor fan that doesn't need an earth. It has a humidistat
and, optionally, a timer. The timer can be used via a separate switch.
The diagram shows L&N to the fan (instruction NOT to use earth) with another
L feed via a separate switch (pull, of course).
Although I do have some F3&E, the fan isn't capable of taking cable - it's a
labyrinthine path and the casing is too flexible for the forces that would
be present. Flex is mentioned.
I've put up a SFCU (don't need a 3-pole switch as there's no 'back door'
feed) and will have a pull switch with an integral 'junction box', so
running 0.75 mm 3-core flex (0.5 mm would be OK for 12W methinks, but it's a
bit flimsy) would give N, L on and L switched if sleeving the E is
permitted.
4-core flex would do it of course, but then it would have to be 0.5 mm to be
useable.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[Toby]

My understanding is that you may never re-purpose an earth conductor, ever.


--
Toby...
Remove your pants to reply

[Andrew Mawson]

"PeterC" wrote in message
news:gvt8lg1nxocd$.1rza5h0g7f3z3$.dlg@40tude.net...

I fired an electrician for doing precisely that in my en-suite during a
house refurb. Rather than admit that he'd pulled the wrong wire through he
tried to get away repurposing the earth / cpc. 15 minutes after I found out,
he was off site with a big flea in his ear. I wouldn't mind but as the loft
was fully accessible he could have pulled in the right 4 core. He is lucky I
didn't also report him to the trade body.

Andrew

[Andy Burns]

Toby wrote:

> PeterC wrote:
>
>> 3-core flex (0.5 mm would be OK for 12W methinks, but it's a
>> bit flimsy) would give N, L on and L switched if sleeving the E is
>> permitted.
>

> My understanding is that you may never re-purpose an earth conductor, ever.

We've had the discussion here, I suspect most people wouldn't do it, or
like to see it done, and the spirit of the regs say not to, but there
appeared to be *just* enough wiggle room that some felt the letter of
the regs could justify it.

[John]

http://professional-electrician.com/technical/can-protective-conductors-change-their-stripes

HTH

[ARW]

"Toby" <ne...@altyourpantsphuk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:lt7rbd$8tb$1...@dont-email.me...

I thought is was you that convinced me that in very exceptional cases the
green/yellow conductor of a flex could be used as a switched live when
oversleeved..

--
Adam

[John]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 18:48:21 +0100, ARW wrote:


>
> I thought is was you that convinced me that in very exceptional cases
the
> green/yellow conductor of a flex could be used as a switched live when
> oversleeved..

I think that was me, but you trumped me with 411.3.1.1 and I had to fold.

[ARW]

"John" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:c5pg92...@mid.individual.net...

411.3.1.1 is the Ace of Spades:-)

--
Adam

[JimK]

/ARW

"John" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:c5pg92...@mid.individual.net...

- show quoted text -
411.3.1.1 is the Ace of Spades:-)/q

Mornington Crescent?

Jim K

[Tim Watts]

Just on the subject line:

No.

This is not permitted under any circumstances, ever.

[John]

I'm going to hang a timer fan from a pendant just to get my own back ;-)

[PeterC]

That sort of says yes but, TBH, I didn't really want to do it.
As I can't use flat 3+E to the fan, I could use it to a JB then drop in
trunking the few inches to the fan in 3-core flex.
Would that be OK?

Thanks to all for the clarifications. If I'd sleeved the E it'd be niggling
at me for ever.

[Andy Burns]

PeterC wrote:

> John wrote:
>
>> http://professional-electrician.com/technical/can-protective-conductors-change-their-stripes

>
> That sort of says yes but, TBH, I didn't really want to do it.
> As I can't use flat 3+E to the fan, I could use it to a JB then drop in
> trunking the few inches to the fan in 3-core flex.
> Would that be OK?

Why the allergy to some 4-core flex for the final run? You've said it's
a tiny power requirement, so 0.5mm^2 would be fine.

[Uncle Peter]

Report him for doing what is commonly done, acceptable, and most likely within the regs? If you sleeve and mark it properly at each end, what harm has he done?

--
What should you do if you girlfriend starts smoking?
Slow down and use a lubricant.

[Uncle Peter]

You have too much time on your hands. If the fan operates correctly when you press the switch, it's fine.

--
Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, Managers are from Uranus.

[PeterC]

Ideal if I could get it, but never seen lower than 0.75mm - bit worried that
it might be too inflexible. The casing of the fan is quite, er, plastic, so
any stress could cause the blade to foul the case.

[Andrew Mawson]

"Uncle Peter" wrote in message news:op.xk1cc...@red.lan...

No CPC on a combined light and extractor unit that is supposed to be
earthed, in a shower, and you think that's within the regs. Think on ......
!


Andrew

[Andy Burns]

PeterC wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Why the allergy to some 4-core flex for the final run?
>

> Ideal if I could get it, but never seen lower than 0.75mm

Helps to search for the specific cable types (e.g. 2184Y, 3094Y etc) but
buying less than a 50m drum is harder

<http://www.edwardes.co.uk/en/products/0-5mm-2184y-white-flex-pvc-4core-per-metre-cut>

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Friday, August 22, 2014 5:06:32 PM UTC+1, PeterC wrote:
> Just bought an extractor fan that ...

> isn't capable of taking cable - it's a
> labyrinthine path and the casing is too flexible for the forces
> that would be present.

I would be taking it back as not fit for purpose.

Owain

[Bill]

In message <op.xk1cc...@red.lan>, Uncle Peter <n...@spam.com> writes

>>
>> I fired an electrician for doing precisely that in my en-suite during a
>> house refurb. Rather than admit that he'd pulled the wrong wire through he
>> tried to get away repurposing the earth / cpc. 15 minutes after I found out,
>> he was off site with a big flea in his ear. I wouldn't mind but as the loft
>> was fully accessible he could have pulled in the right 4 core. He is lucky I
>> didn't also report him to the trade body.
>
>Report him for doing what is commonly done, acceptable, and most likely
>within the regs? If you sleeve and mark it properly at each end, what
>harm has he done?
>

And if/when the cable is damaged part way along and some one sees the
bare CPC and touches it?

Would you like to imagine that this has happened and write a
hypothetical report to the coroner for us, excusing the action of using
the CPC as a live return. It would make interesting reading.
--
Bill

[Uncle Peter]

Why would you touch any bare wire (especially a damaged one which could have shorted and made any conductor live) without testing it with a meter first or turning off the power? And why would you need a coroner for an electric shock? I've had about 6 mains shocks in my life and my neighbour electrician countless more than that. The worst that ever happened is he jumped and fell off a ladder.

--
If sex is a pain in the ass, then you're doing it wrong.

[Uncle Peter]

The OP said "Just bought an extractor fan that ****doesn't need an earth****". I've yet to see a metal cased extractor in a shower.

--
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

[Fredxxx]

I thought the trump was that line conductors had to be double insulated?
If only for mechanical protection?

[Fredxxx]

Regs say the protective conductor be run to and terminated at each point
in the wiring and at each accessory - with the exception of a
lampholder. At some point the extractor fan might be replaced with
something that does require a protective conductor. Its a good general rule.

[Bill]

In message <op.xk1il...@red.lan>, Uncle Peter <n...@spam.com> writes

>> And if/when the cable is damaged part way along and some one sees the
>> bare CPC and touches it?
>>
>> Would you like to imagine that this has happened and write a
>> hypothetical report to the coroner for us, excusing the action of using
>> the CPC as a live return. It would make interesting reading.
>
>Why would you touch any bare wire (especially a damaged one which could
>have shorted and made any conductor live) without testing it with a
>meter first or turning off the power? And why would you need a coroner
>for an electric shock? I've had about 6 mains shocks in my life and my
>neighbour electrician countless more than that. The worst that ever
>happened is he jumped and fell off a ladder.
>

Because you are a young child, elderly and infirm, visually impaired,
just not knowledgeable about such things etc.etc.

Then you have been lucky, many aren't.
--
Bill

[Uncle Peter]

So a young child would understand what an earth coloured wire was and think it was safe?

--
The ant can lift 50 times its own weight, can pull 30 times its own weight, and always falls over on its right side when intoxicated.

[Uncle Peter]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:29:46 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:

> On 23/08/2014 11:13, Uncle Peter wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:48:48 +0100, Andrew Mawson
>> <andrew@please_remove_me.mawson.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> "Uncle Peter" wrote in message news:op.xk1cc...@red.lan...
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:55:02 +0100, Andrew Mawson
>>>> <andrew@please_remove_me.mawson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "PeterC" wrote in message
>>>>> news:gvt8lg1nxocd$.1rza5h0g7f3z3$.dlg@40tude.net...

>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> I fired an electrician for doing precisely that in my en-suite during a
>>>>> house refurb. Rather than admit that he'd pulled the wrong wire through
>>>>> he
>>>>> tried to get away repurposing the earth / cpc. 15 minutes after I found
>>>>> out,
>>>>> he was off site with a big flea in his ear. I wouldn't mind but as the
>>>>> loft
>>>>> was fully accessible he could have pulled in the right 4 core. He is
>>>>> lucky I
>>>>> didn't also report him to the trade body.
>>>>
>>>> Report him for doing what is commonly done, acceptable, and most likely
>>>> within the regs? If you sleeve and mark it properly at each end,
>>>> what harm
>>>> has he done?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No CPC on a combined light and extractor unit that is supposed to be
>>> earthed, in a shower, and you think that's within the regs. Think on
>>> ......
>>> !
>>
>> The OP said "Just bought an extractor fan that ****doesn't need an
>> earth****". I've yet to see a metal cased extractor in a shower.
>
> Regs say the protective conductor be run to and terminated at each point
> in the wiring and at each accessory - with the exception of a
> lampholder. At some point the extractor fan might be replaced with
> something that does require a protective conductor. Its a good general rule.

If you install a plastic fan, you don't need an earth, end of story. Adding an earth because you might need one in the future is very remotely going to be more convenient, not safer.

--
Last night I reached for my liquid Viagra and accidentally swigged from a bottle of Tippex.
I woke up this morning with a huge correction.

[Fredxxx]

It is both safer and convenient, as a fan can be legally changed by any
Tom Dick or Harry, while in most cases the permanent wiring will be
installed by someone more competent.

[Fredxxx]

On 23/08/2014 14:11, Uncle Peter wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:31:03 +0100, Bill <Bi...@birchnet.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <op.xk1il...@red.lan>, Uncle Peter <n...@spam.com> writes
>>>> And if/when the cable is damaged part way along and some one sees the
>>>> bare CPC and touches it?
>>>>
>>>> Would you like to imagine that this has happened and write a
>>>> hypothetical report to the coroner for us, excusing the action of using
>>>> the CPC as a live return. It would make interesting reading.
>>>
>>> Why would you touch any bare wire (especially a damaged one which could
>>> have shorted and made any conductor live) without testing it with a
>>> meter first or turning off the power? And why would you need a coroner
>>> for an electric shock? I've had about 6 mains shocks in my life and my
>>> neighbour electrician countless more than that. The worst that ever
>>> happened is he jumped and fell off a ladder.
>>>
>>
>> Because you are a young child, elderly and infirm, visually impaired,
>> just not knowledgeable about such things etc.etc.
>>
>> Then you have been lucky, many aren't.
>
> So a young child would understand what an earth coloured wire was and
> think it was safe?

Is the earth wire in a T+E cable coloured? If it's damaged how many
layers of plastic coating is there? If the outer sheath is compromised
is there any warning that any damage or cut is down to the conductor?

You seem not no care for anyone who might not be knowledgeable as you.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <gvt8lg1nxocd$.1rza5h0g7f3z3$.d...@40tude.net>,

PeterC <giraffe...@homecall.co.uk> wrote:
> I've put up a SFCU (don't need a 3-pole switch as there's no 'back door'
> feed) and will have a pull switch with an integral 'junction box', so
> running 0.75 mm 3-core flex (0.5 mm would be OK for 12W methinks, but
> it's a bit flimsy) would give N, L on and L switched if sleeving the E
> is permitted.

It's absolutely prohibited. But many do it.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[PeterC]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:29:46 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

>> The OP said "Just bought an extractor fan that ****doesn't need an
>> earth****". I've yet to see a metal cased extractor in a shower.
>
> Regs say the protective conductor be run to and terminated at each point
> in the wiring and at each accessory - with the exception of a
> lampholder. At some point the extractor fan might be replaced with
> something that does require a protective conductor. Its a good general rule.

Indeed - I'd run one in just in case.

[PeterC]

I certainly wouldn't do it in T+E - I asked about flex, not cable.

[PeterC]

Ideal at first glance, then: 5m+delivery+VAT=�12.96 - ouch!

[PeterC]

It specifies flex.

[ARW]

"PeterC" <giraffe...@homecall.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1u7ogeyqxfzcl.1oet4r2rb2250$.dlg@40tude.net...

> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 02:14:19 -0700 (PDT), spuorg...@gowanhill.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, August 22, 2014 5:06:32 PM UTC+1, PeterC wrote:
>>> Just bought an extractor fan that ...
>>> isn't capable of taking cable - it's a
>>> labyrinthine path and the casing is too flexible for the forces
>>> that would be present.
>>
>> I would be taking it back as not fit for purpose.
>>

>

> It specifies flex.


So reg 510.2 applies and you must use flex. Care to name the fan make and
model number?

--
Adam

[ARW]

"Uncle Peter" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:op.xk1cf...@red.lan...

You could say the same thing about electric chairs but they look dangerous
to me:-)

--
Adam

[Uncle Peter]

They're supposed to be dangerous. If they weren't, then they are not operating correctly.

--
Our records indicate that you were once felt up by Jimmy Savile and could be entitled to £2147 in compensation.
Just reply "Hows about that then" to register, or to opt out just reply "Stop Jimmy Stop".
Register before the end of the month and get a free "Lawyers 4 U".

[Uncle Peter]

Why would a young child be present in an area where T+E is used (eg an attic)?

--
When a man steals your wife, there is no better revenge than to let him keep her.

[Uncle Peter]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:44:26 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:

> On 23/08/2014 14:12, Uncle Peter wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:29:46 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/08/2014 11:13, Uncle Peter wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:48:48 +0100, Andrew Mawson
>>>> <andrew@please_remove_me.mawson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Uncle Peter" wrote in message news:op.xk1cc...@red.lan...

>>

>>>>>

>>>>> No CPC on a combined light and extractor unit that is supposed to be
>>>>> earthed, in a shower, and you think that's within the regs. Think on
>>>>> ......
>>>>> !
>>>>
>>>> The OP said "Just bought an extractor fan that ****doesn't need an
>>>> earth****". I've yet to see a metal cased extractor in a shower.
>>>
>>> Regs say the protective conductor be run to and terminated at each point
>>> in the wiring and at each accessory - with the exception of a
>>> lampholder. At some point the extractor fan might be replaced with
>>> something that does require a protective conductor. Its a good general
>>> rule.
>>
>> If you install a plastic fan, you don't need an earth, end of story.
>> Adding an earth because you might need one in the future is very
>> remotely going to be more convenient, not safer.
>
> It is both safer and convenient, as a fan can be legally changed by any
> Tom Dick or Harry, while in most cases the permanent wiring will be
> installed by someone more competent.

So where are these steel fans that a Tom Dick or Harry would change it to? Anyway, it's their problem if they don't earth it. And anyway again, earth is only needed for a fault. Wire it well and there is no fault. And a third anyway, earth can make things worse, as it provides a path to ground if something else you touch is live.

--
It's strange, isn't it? You stand in the middle of a library and go "Aaaaaaagghhhh!!!!" and everyone just stares at you. But you do the same thing on an aeroplane, and everyone joins in.

[ARW]

"Uncle Peter" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message

news:op.xk10w...@red.lan...

I wonder if electric chairs are PAT tested by someone wearing a hi viz vest.
You need to wear a hi viz vest for PAT testing according to some people
(they are the ones that would like to sit in an electric chair).

--
Adam

[Uncle Peter]

It would appear most cyclists now think they should wear them too, along with their silly little helmets. I call them learner cyclists, as they think they're going to fall off.

--
Streakers beware: Your end is in sight!

[Fredxxx]

Yes it could well be their problem if they don't provide and earth, or
one that masquerades as being earth when it isn't, when someone touches
it. It's the sort of thing that could well receive a prosecution.

As you rightly say, earth is usually only needed in the event of a
fault. In a bathroom such a fault could well be fatal.

One day when you grow up, assuming you get that far, you'll see this is
all so obvious.

[Fredxxx]

You haven't lived, or have yet to experience climbing in the attic as a
child.

[Fredxxx]

Then the rules are all the more clearer, that it is forbidden to use a
conductor that is marked along its length in green and yellow.

[Uncle Peter]

The ends is all what matters innit, cause that's what you sees.

--
Times are tough.
Just the other day, I saw a beggar who was so broke that he was standing on the corner shouting at the cars that went by.
He was shouting, "WILL WORK FOR CARDBOARD AND A MAGIC MARKER!"

[Uncle Peter]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:36:20 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:

> On 23/08/2014 17:49, Uncle Peter wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:04:07 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/08/2014 14:11, Uncle Peter wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:31:03 +0100, Bill <Bi...@birchnet.demon.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <op.xk1il...@red.lan>, Uncle Peter <n...@spam.com>
>>>>> writes

>>>>>

>>>>> Because you are a young child, elderly and infirm, visually impaired,
>>>>> just not knowledgeable about such things etc.etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you have been lucky, many aren't.
>>>>
>>>> So a young child would understand what an earth coloured wire was and
>>>> think it was safe?
>>>
>>> Is the earth wire in a T+E cable coloured? If it's damaged how many
>>> layers of plastic coating is there? If the outer sheath is compromised
>>> is there any warning that any damage or cut is down to the conductor?
>>>
>>> You seem not no care for anyone who might not be knowledgeable as you.
>>
>> Why would a young child be present in an area where T+E is used (eg an
>> attic)?
>
> You haven't lived, or have yet to experience climbing in the attic as a
> child.

You're more likely to fall through the plasterboard and cause yourself an injury when you land on something in the room below.

--
We cannot see the future.
We cannot change the past.
We can only live in the now, with an eye towards gaining enough
power in the future to wreck revenge on everyone who ever screwed
us in the past.

[Uncle Peter]

For them. They should have provided an earth, not something that they thought was an earth.

> As you rightly say, earth is usually only needed in the event of a
> fault. In a bathroom such a fault could well be fatal.

A bathroom doesn't magically make it more dangerous. Do you think clothes protect you or something? What about a bedroom?

> One day when you grow up, assuming you get that far, you'll see this is
> all so obvious.

I have no desire to become a boring old pedantic safety conscious fart like yourself.

--
"Americans will always do the right thing when they have exhausted all other alternatives." -- Winston Churchill

[Tim Watts]

On 23/08/14 18:13, ARW wrote:

> I wonder if electric chairs are PAT tested by someone wearing a hi viz
> vest. You need to wear a hi viz vest for PAT testing according to some
> people (they are the ones that would like to sit in an electric chair).
>

I'm in a Premier Inn right now looking at a lamp flex where there is 2cm
of cores coming out of the plugtop before I see any sheath. This has a
Jan 2014 PAT (whatever) sticker on it. I'm amazed whoever fitted the
plug could get the extra 2cm of cores into the plug for them to later
become visible as the MK style autogrip let the sheath slip out.

;-o

Yes - I did report it to reception. No I don't expect it to get fixed.

[Fredxxx]

We're starting to get somewhere.

>> As you rightly say, earth is usually only needed in the event of a
>> fault. In a bathroom such a fault could well be fatal.
>
> A bathroom doesn't magically make it more dangerous. Do you think
> clothes protect you or something? What about a bedroom?
>
>> One day when you grow up, assuming you get that far, you'll see this is
>> all so obvious.
>
> I have no desire to become a boring old pedantic safety conscious fart
> like yourself.

Nope, I suspect you'll be long cold and 6ft under before me.

[Fredxxx]

On 23/08/2014 20:48, Uncle Peter wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:36:20 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On 23/08/2014 17:49, Uncle Peter wrote:
>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:04:07 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23/08/2014 14:11, Uncle Peter wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:31:03 +0100, Bill <Bi...@birchnet.demon.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <op.xk1il...@red.lan>, Uncle Peter <n...@spam.com>
>>>>>> writes
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because you are a young child, elderly and infirm, visually impaired,
>>>>>> just not knowledgeable about such things etc.etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you have been lucky, many aren't.
>>>>>
>>>>> So a young child would understand what an earth coloured wire was and
>>>>> think it was safe?
>>>>
>>>> Is the earth wire in a T+E cable coloured? If it's damaged how many
>>>> layers of plastic coating is there? If the outer sheath is compromised
>>>> is there any warning that any damage or cut is down to the conductor?
>>>>
>>>> You seem not no care for anyone who might not be knowledgeable as you.
>>>
>>> Why would a young child be present in an area where T+E is used (eg an
>>> attic)?
>>
>> You haven't lived, or have yet to experience climbing in the attic as a
>> child.
>
> You're more likely to fall through the plasterboard and cause yourself
> an injury when you land on something in the room below.

That didn't happen when I was a child.

[Fredxxx]

That is where many will disagree with you, as do the regulations.

[Uncle Peter]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 22:18:35 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:

> On 23/08/2014 20:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:37:21 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/08/2014 16:37, PeterC wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:49:09 +0100, Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <op.xk1cc...@red.lan>, Uncle Peter <n...@spam.com>
>>>>> writes

>>>>>

>>>>> And if/when the cable is damaged part way along and some one sees the
>>>>> bare CPC and touches it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Would you like to imagine that this has happened and write a
>>>>> hypothetical report to the coroner for us, excusing the action of using
>>>>> the CPC as a live return. It would make interesting reading.
>>>>
>>>> I certainly wouldn't do it in T+E - I asked about flex, not cable.
>>>
>>> Then the rules are all the more clearer, that it is forbidden to use a
>>> conductor that is marked along its length in green and yellow.
>>
>> The ends is all what matters innit, cause that's what you sees.
>
> That is where many will disagree with you, as do the regulations.

There are many pedantic idiots about.

--
What happens if you install windows 98 on a system with 2 processors?
It crashes twice.

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

ARW wrote:
> You could say the same thing about electric chairs but they look dangerous
> to me:-)

My granny fell off hers when she took the half-landing at speed.

Owain

[Uncle Peter]

So you were clever enough to avoid doing that, but stupid enough to play with wires?

--
"I wonder who discovered we could get milk from cows and what the fuck did he think he was doing?!" -- Billy Connolly

[Uncle Peter]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 22:16:25 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:

> On 23/08/2014 20:49, Uncle Peter wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:35:21 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/08/2014 17:51, Uncle Peter wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:44:26 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23/08/2014 14:12, Uncle Peter wrote:

>>
>>>>

>>>>
>>

>>>>>
>>>>> It is both safer and convenient, as a fan can be legally changed by any
>>>>> Tom Dick or Harry, while in most cases the permanent wiring will be
>>>>> installed by someone more competent.
>>>>
>>>> So where are these steel fans that a Tom Dick or Harry would change it
>>>> to? Anyway, it's their problem if they don't earth it. And anyway
>>>> again, earth is only needed for a fault.
>>>
>>> Yes it could well be their problem if they don't provide and earth, or
>>> one that masquerades as being earth when it isn't, when someone touches
>>> it. It's the sort of thing that could well receive a prosecution.
>>
>> For them. They should have provided an earth, not something that they
>> thought was an earth.
>
> We're starting to get somewhere.

No you're not. I'm sticking to the same reasoning. The earth is what matters, not the colour of the wire, you racist :-P

>>> As you rightly say, earth is usually only needed in the event of a
>>> fault. In a bathroom such a fault could well be fatal.
>>
>> A bathroom doesn't magically make it more dangerous. Do you think
>> clothes protect you or something? What about a bedroom?
>>
>>> One day when you grow up, assuming you get that far, you'll see this is
>>> all so obvious.
>>
>> I have no desire to become a boring old pedantic safety conscious fart
>> like yourself.
>
> Nope, I suspect you'll be long cold and 6ft under before me.

No, because I don't have a weak heart and won't succumb to 240 volts - although I've just had a new substation fitted in this street which means I get 248 volts... they claim unless it hits 253 they won't do anything, although it is causing my UPS to have a warning light on 90% of the time.

--
Is a booby trap only dangerous for women?

[Fredxxx]

And how do you know you're not susceptible to an electric shock. There
is a long string of athletes who have died from heart failure in their
prime. I'm sure they would be saying something similar, that they were
too fit to die young.

[Fredxxx]

Being a young child, yes I might well have been.

[Fredxxx]

> There are many idiots about.

There, corrected your statement.

[ARW]

"Fredxxx" <fre...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ltaqi7$5qv$3...@dont-email.me...

That rule only applys to single core conductors and does not apply to
multicore flex.

--
Adam

[ARW]

"Uncle Peter" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message

news:op.xk154...@red.lan...

That is so pedestrians can spot them and move out the way.



--
Adam

[Uncle Peter]

And so pedestrians should move out of the way, it's easier to sidestep when you're on foot than swerve round on a bicycle. I have no problem moving to the side for a cyclist, just as I move to the side for another pedestrian. On the water, the smaller craft always moves out of the way of the larger one (for reasons of dexterity).

--
The true mark of a civilized society is when its citizens know how to hate each other peacefully.

[JimK]

/Ideal at first glance, then: 5m+delivery+VAT=�12.96 - ouch! /q

EBay?

Jim K

[charles]

pedestrians don't waer rear view mirrors

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[PeterC]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 07:27:44 +0100, ARW wrote:

>>> I certainly wouldn't do it in T+E - I asked about flex, not cable.
>>
>> Then the rules are all the more clearer, that it is forbidden to use a
>> conductor that is marked along its length in green and yellow.
>>
>
> That rule only applys to single core conductors and does not apply to
> multicore flex.

So that site intimated. Although I asked about it, I'd be uncomfortable
doing it just in case someone did cut into it.
BTW, with 3+E is it correct to sleeve the grey as blue for N and sleeve the
black as red for (switched) L?
Looking at the FAQ and other sites, there seems to be something against usin
black as N to get away from the association of black with N.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[PeterC]

Possibly - I'll look.

[ARW]

"PeterC" <giraffe...@homecall.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1ccg977ehcf2i$.47l9ov8gu8qo$.dlg@40tude.net...

Normally the grey is oversleeved with blue and used as the neutral, the
black is oversleeved with brown and used as the switched live. However if it
was done the other way and the grey was oversleeved with brown and used as
the switched live you would not be breaking any regs.



--
Adam

[PeterC]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 17:29:30 +0100, ARW wrote:

> "PeterC" <giraffe...@homecall.co.uk> wrote in message

> news:1u7ogeyqxfzcl.1oet4r2rb2250$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 02:14:19 -0700 (PDT), spuorg...@gowanhill.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, August 22, 2014 5:06:32 PM UTC+1, PeterC wrote:
>>>> Just bought an extractor fan that ...
>>>> isn't capable of taking cable - it's a
>>>> labyrinthine path and the casing is too flexible for the forces
>>>> that would be present.
>>>
>>> I would be taking it back as not fit for purpose.
>>>
>
>>
>> It specifies flex.
>
> So reg 510.2 applies and you must use flex. Care to name the fan make and
> model number?

Xpelair DX100HTA. Actually, it says "flexible cable", but only under a
paragraph for Australia, so I'm wrong on that. As the cable will be in
trunking, I'll use 3+E, run the sheat into the first part of the cable
restraint and then have it stripped for the rest of the way through the
'maze' - would that be OK?

[ARW]

"PeterC" <giraffe...@homecall.co.uk> wrote in message

news:ozi9awcqutja.1l...@40tude.net...

Yes.



--
Adam

[Uncle Peter]

Ever heard of a cycle bell or an "excuse me"?

--
A blue whale's heart is roughly the size of a VW Beetle, and its aorta is large enough for a human to crawl through.

[Uncle Peter]

That is also correct. But why did you remove pedantic?

--
The sensible in the world are doomed to be frustrated by petty, officious idiots.

[Uncle Peter]

Then you should have been left to get removed from the gene pool.

--
It's only premarital sex if you're going to get married.

[damdu...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:13:43 +0100, "ARW"
<adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:



>>
>> You could say the same thing about electric chairs but they look dangerous
>> to me:-)
>
>They're supposed to be dangerous. If they weren't, then they are not
>operating correctly.
>
>
>
>I wonder if electric chairs are PAT tested by someone wearing a hi viz vest.
>You need to wear a hi viz vest for PAT testing according to some people
>(they are the ones that would like to sit in an electric chair).

Most would be fixed equipment rather than portable wouldn't they?
Though a couple of states had a portable one with a generator truck
due to legal requirments that sentence should be carried out in the
same town as the court case.
http://mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us/images/187.jpg

G.Harman

[PeterC]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 09:37:38 +0100, ARW wrote:

> As the cable will be in
>> trunking, I'll use 3+E, run the sheat into the first part of the cable
>> restraint and then have it stripped for the rest of the way through the
>> 'maze' - would that be OK?
>
> Yes.

Thanks Adam - solved.

Now all I need is to get the brand new 117mm core drill through the wall.
It'll be done from inside - I'm not going for a spin about 12' up a ladder!

Just fitted the block for the pull-switch. Screw holes the same but the
knock-out in the base is 90 deg. out, so had to enlarge it a bit. Seems a
bit daft putting in line with the screws when the easiest way is to get the
screws adequately into a joist and go through the plasterboard at the end of
the hole.
Alos, bought a 2-way Crabtree, as the one that I used for a light had a full
set of terminals in the block; this one doesn't. Looked at MK's site and
although there are some details nothing says what terminals are in the
block. I feel a connector approaching, as only N is affected.

[PeterC]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 09:16:04 +0100, ARW wrote:

>> BTW, with 3+E is it correct to sleeve the grey as blue for N and sleeve
>> the
>> black as red for (switched) L?
>> Looking at the FAQ and other sites, there seems to be something against
>> usin
>> black as N to get away from the association of black with N.
>
> Normally the grey is oversleeved with blue and used as the neutral, the
> black is oversleeved with brown and used as the switched live. However if it
> was done the other way and the grey was oversleeved with brown and used as
> the switched live you would not be breaking any regs.

Thanks. There is, of course, the brown wire already. I'd use brown as the
continuation of the L supply as, in this application, it's not switched,
grey with blue sleeve as N and black with red sleeve as switched L to the
timer.
For e.g. 2-way switching I've used brown as supply to the switch and out
from Com 1 then, if 2-brown+E, the other brown sleeved red from Com 2. Makes
it easier to trace.

[Fredxxx]

You were a remarkably boring child.

[Fredxxx]

Because only an idiot would agree to anarchy. You don't have to be
pedantic, just stupid.

[Uncle Peter]

Then you misunderstood me. The idiots are the ones following the regulations. Computers follow instructions, humans think for themselves.

--
"I'm wide eyed and witless & totally off my rocker" -- Ronald Tompkins, circa 2013

[Fredxxx]

Nope, idiots think that regulations don't matter. They are often selfish
sociopaths who don't consider the welfare of others, often accused of
being of being Asperger's or similar.

[Uncle Peter]

I stole, vandalised, and broke, many things as a child.

--
Bad command or file name! Go stand in the corner.

[Uncle Peter]

[Uncle Peter]

You're considering remote possibilities that will probably never happen. That's commonly referred to as pedantic, OCD, or wimpy.

--
Women like silent men, they think they're listening.

[John Rumm]

On 23/08/2014 11:13, Uncle Peter wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:48:48 +0100, Andrew Mawson
> <andrew@please_remove_me.mawson.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Uncle Peter" wrote in message news:op.xk1cc...@red.lan...
>>>
>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:55:02 +0100, Andrew Mawson
>>> <andrew@please_remove_me.mawson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "PeterC" wrote in message
>>>> news:gvt8lg1nxocd$.1rza5h0g7f3z3$.dlg@40tude.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> Just bought an extractor fan that doesn't need an earth. It has a
>>>>> humidistat
>>>>> and, optionally, a timer. The timer can be used via a separate switch.
>>>>> The diagram shows L&N to the fan (instruction NOT to use earth) with
>>>>> another
>>>>> L feed via a separate switch (pull, of course).
>>>>> Although I do have some F3&E, the fan isn't capable of taking cable -

>>>>> it's
>>>>> a
>>>>> labyrinthine path and the casing is too flexible for the forces that
>>>>> would

>>>>> be present. Flex is mentioned.
>>>>> I've put up a SFCU (don't need a 3-pole switch as there's no 'back
>>>>> door'
>>>>> feed) and will have a pull switch with an integral 'junction box', so
>>>>> running 0.75 mm 3-core flex (0.5 mm would be OK for 12W methinks, but
>>>>> it's
>>>>> a
>>>>> bit flimsy) would give N, L on and L switched if sleeving the E is
>>>>> permitted.
>>>>> 4-core flex would do it of course, but then it would have to be 0.5 mm
>>>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>> useable.

>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I fired an electrician for doing precisely that in my en-suite during a
>>>> house refurb. Rather than admit that he'd pulled the wrong wire through
>>>> he
>>>> tried to get away repurposing the earth / cpc. 15 minutes after I found
>>>> out,
>>>> he was off site with a big flea in his ear. I wouldn't mind but as the
>>>> loft
>>>> was fully accessible he could have pulled in the right 4 core. He is
>>>> lucky I
>>>> didn't also report him to the trade body.
>>>
>>> Report him for doing what is commonly done, acceptable, and most likely
>>> within the regs? If you sleeve and mark it properly at each end,
>>> what harm
>>> has he done?
>>>
>>

>> No CPC on a combined light and extractor unit that is supposed to be
>> earthed, in a shower, and you think that's within the regs. Think on
>> ......
>> !
>
> The OP said "Just bought an extractor fan that ****doesn't need an
> earth****". I've yet to see a metal cased extractor in a shower.

Forget the OP, Andrew was commenting on why he fired the sparks on *his*
installation - where an earth most definitely was required.



--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[John Rumm]

On 23/08/2014 14:12, Uncle Peter wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:29:46 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On 23/08/2014 11:13, Uncle Peter wrote:
>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:48:48 +0100, Andrew Mawson
>>> <andrew@please_remove_me.mawson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Uncle Peter" wrote in message news:op.xk1cc...@red.lan...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:55:02 +0100, Andrew Mawson
>>>>> <andrew@please_remove_me.mawson.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "PeterC" wrote in message
>>>>>> news:gvt8lg1nxocd$.1rza5h0g7f3z3$.dlg@40tude.net...
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

>> Regs say the protective conductor be run to and terminated at each point
>> in the wiring and at each accessory - with the exception of a
>> lampholder. At some point the extractor fan might be replaced with
>> something that does require a protective conductor. Its a good general
>> rule.
>
> If you install a plastic fan, you don't need an earth, end of story.

No, regulation 411.3.1.1 explicitly states that the *wiring* must
provide an earth to each termination point - regardless of whether the
currently fitted accessory actually requires it.

[John Rumm]

On 23/08/2014 22:18, Fredxxx wrote:
> On 23/08/2014 20:46, Uncle Peter wrote:

>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:37:21 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/08/2014 16:37, PeterC wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:49:09 +0100, Bill wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <op.xk1cc...@red.lan>, Uncle Peter <n...@spam.com>
>>>>> writes
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I fired an electrician for doing precisely that in my en-suite
>>>>>>> during a
>>>>>>> house refurb. Rather than admit that he'd pulled the wrong wire
>>>>>>> through he
>>>>>>> tried to get away repurposing the earth / cpc. 15 minutes after I
>>>>>>> found out,
>>>>>>> he was off site with a big flea in his ear. I wouldn't mind but as
>>>>>>> the loft
>>>>>>> was fully accessible he could have pulled in the right 4 core. He
>>>>>>> is lucky I
>>>>>>> didn't also report him to the trade body.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Report him for doing what is commonly done, acceptable, and most
>>>>>> likely
>>>>>> within the regs? If you sleeve and mark it properly at each end,
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> harm has he done?
>>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> And if/when the cable is damaged part way along and some one sees the
>>>>> bare CPC and touches it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Would you like to imagine that this has happened and write a
>>>>> hypothetical report to the coroner for us, excusing the action of
>>>>> using
>>>>> the CPC as a live return. It would make interesting reading.
>>>>

>>>> I certainly wouldn't do it in T+E - I asked about flex, not cable.
>>>

>>> Then the rules are all the more clearer, that it is forbidden to use a
>>> conductor that is marked along its length in green and yellow.
>>
>> The ends is all what matters innit, cause that's what you sees.
>

> That is where many will disagree with you, as do the regulations.

Well to be fair, in the case of a multicore cable which includes a
green/yellow insulated conductor, there are some very limited cases
where it would be permissible to over mark it at both ends and
re-purpose it. However the point is generally moot since you must
provide a protective earth to just about every termination point anyway.

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:38:52 AM UTC+1, Uncle Peter wrote:
> On the water, the smaller craft always moves out of the way of
> the larger one (for reasons of dexterity).

steam (usually) gives way to sail

Owain

[Uncle Peter]

Yes, whatever is more manoeuvrable. Which in the original discussion is a pedestrian over a bicycle.

--
Why do you need a driver's license to buy liquor when you can't drink and drive?

[Uncle Peter]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 16:08:58 +0100, John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

> On 23/08/2014 22:18, Fredxxx wrote:
>> On 23/08/2014 20:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:37:21 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23/08/2014 16:37, PeterC wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:49:09 +0100, Bill wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>>
>>>>> I certainly wouldn't do it in T+E - I asked about flex, not cable.
>>>>
>>>> Then the rules are all the more clearer, that it is forbidden to use a
>>>> conductor that is marked along its length in green and yellow.
>>>
>>> The ends is all what matters innit, cause that's what you sees.
>>
>> That is where many will disagree with you, as do the regulations.
>
> Well to be fair, in the case of a multicore cable which includes a
> green/yellow insulated conductor, there are some very limited cases
> where it would be permissible to over mark it at both ends and
> re-purpose it. However the point is generally moot since you must
> provide a protective earth to just about every termination point anyway.

If you're not going to use the earth, then it's pointless bringing it there.

--
I got invited to a party and was told to dress to kill. Apparently a turban, beard and a backpack wasn't what they had in mind.

[Johny B Good]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:44:26 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 23/08/2014 14:12, Uncle Peter wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:29:46 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:

====snip====

>> If you install a plastic fan, you don't need an earth, end of story.

>> Adding an earth because you might need one in the future is very
>> remotely going to be more convenient, not safer.
>
>It is both safer and convenient, as a fan can be legally changed by any
>Tom, Dick or Harry,

Presumably, this is a job outside of the scope of Sally. :-)
--
J B Good

[ARW]

"PeterC" <giraffe...@homecall.co.uk> wrote in message

news:1q56qchfqsww2$.1oywn8eqsqxk0.dlg@40tude.net...

Why are using red oversleeving on new colour cable? Brown is the new live
(has been for the last 10 years)

--
Adam

[ARW]

"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:kNWdnUV6ILEBY2TO...@brightview.co.uk...

And it does not help that the installation manual says "use 3 core cable" on
page 4

http://www.applied-energy.com/media/uploads/DX100%20RANGE%20ALL%20LANGUAGES.pdf

but page 7 is the best. Cleaning - to be done once a month by a quailfied
electrician - at last a use for female electricians.

--
Adam

[John Rumm]

On 24/08/2014 16:47, Uncle Peter wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 16:08:58 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 23/08/2014 22:18, Fredxxx wrote:
>>> On 23/08/2014 20:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 20:37:21 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23/08/2014 16:37, PeterC wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:49:09 +0100, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I certainly wouldn't do it in T+E - I asked about flex, not cable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then the rules are all the more clearer, that it is forbidden to use a
>>>>> conductor that is marked along its length in green and yellow.
>>>>
>>>> The ends is all what matters innit, cause that's what you sees.
>>>
>>> That is where many will disagree with you, as do the regulations.
>>
>> Well to be fair, in the case of a multicore cable which includes a
>> green/yellow insulated conductor, there are some very limited cases
>> where it would be permissible to over mark it at both ends and
>> re-purpose it. However the point is generally moot since you must
>> provide a protective earth to just about every termination point anyway.
>
> If you're not going to use the earth, then it's pointless bringing it
> there.

It does not matter if you plan to use it now or not, its a regulatory
requirement that it must still be there.

[John Rumm]

Not only that, but black is now a "line" colour so does not technically
need oversleving (although it would be very sensible to do so in an
installation with mixed colours).

[ARW]

"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message

news:l46dnYMax95uv2fO...@brightview.co.uk...

> need oversleving.

On a single phase install?




--
Adam

[Fredxxx]

Correction: You were a remarkably unpleasant child.

[Uncle Peter]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:01:58 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:

> On 24/08/2014 14:46, Uncle Peter wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 13:50:54 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/08/2014 09:48, Uncle Peter wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 23:56:36 +0100, Fredxxx <fre...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 23/08/2014 23:16, Uncle Peter wrote:

>>
>>>>

>>

>>>>
>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Being a young child, yes I might well have been.
>>>>
>>>> Then you should have been left to get removed from the gene pool.
>>>
>>> You were a remarkably boring child.
>>
>> I stole, vandalised, and broke, many things as a child.
>
> Correction: You were a remarkably unpleasant child.

Fun though.

--
Maybe . . .
Flying saucers are real and the Air Force doesn't exist.

[RobertL]

On Saturday, 23 August 2014 20:49:57 UTC+1, Uncle Peter wrote:

> A bathroom doesn't magically make it more dangerous. Do you think clothes protect you or something? What about a bedroom?

It's the water rather than the nudity, but you knew that I guess.

R

[Uncle Peter]

I can't remember ever taking a bath with the fan in the bath. I leave it on the ceiling and don't tend to reach up there for no reason during washing.

--
All that glitters has a high refractive index.

[PeterC]

This is 2-brown (+E). I just find it useful to have an indication. At work I
used to put the numbered sleeves on wires, sometimes into the low hundreds.
Also hated it when someone had numbered a wire at one end 123 and at the
other,looking at it frome the same side, 123. It should be from the end of
the wire, so 123----321.

[PeterC]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:51:15 +0100, ARW wrote:

>>>> Thanks. There is, of course, the brown wire already. I'd use brown as
>>>> the
>>>> continuation of the L supply as, in this application, it's not switched,
>>>> grey with blue sleeve as N and black with red sleeve as switched L to
>>>> the
>>>> timer.
>>>> For e.g. 2-way switching I've used brown as supply to the switch and out
>>>> from Com 1 then, if 2-brown+E, the other brown sleeved red from Com 2.
>>>> Makes
>>>> it easier to trace.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why are using red oversleeving on new colour cable? Brown is the new
>>> live (has been for the last 10 years)
>>
>> Not only that, but black is now a "line" colour so does not technically
>> need oversleving.
>
> On a single phase install?

With flat 3+E. A lot of people still think of black as N (I do half the
time), so a red sleeve on it clarifies that, as does blue sleeve on grey.