aldi sliding mitre saw - opinions please

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Tim_UK

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May 25, 2007, 9:18:31 AM5/25/07
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I see aldi have a reasonably priced mitre saw coming soon -

http://uk.aldi.com/sunday_special_buys/productnl_2218.html


has anyone any experience of this model please ?

Andy Hall

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May 25, 2007, 9:39:19 AM5/25/07
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Yes, this is the lowest end Chinese generic seen in quite a few places.
I did take a look at one recently at a Sunday market. The slide
mechanism was sticky with quite a lot of play so this isn't going to do
anything much more than fairly rough, no repeatable hacking through
material. This may be good enough for some applications, although
none spring to mind. More concerning was that the guard is very
flimsy and the mechanism was sticking. In an SCMS, these are a
potentially lethal combination because the temptation is to take them
off. Another clue is that a laser guide has been added. This is
nothing more than a marketing feature - it doesn't serve any useful
function.

I see no point in wasting money on it.


robgraham

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May 25, 2007, 12:07:53 PM5/25/07
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Tim
Just a caveat to Andy's post, and this is not in any way knocking
Andy, but if you look through his posts on tool assessment, you will
find that he is a high end purchaser and has high standards for tool
purchase.

His review of this tool may be perfectly correct, but I have bought a
number of power tools from Aldi/Lidl and found, for my usage, them to
be quite adequate and as 'quality' includes price, to be good
quality. My philosophy with a new tool is to buy cheap to see just how
much use I really do have for it and then replace with better if
necessary - remarkably in recent years replacement hasn't proven
necessary and that includes a garage extension and a workshop rebuild!

Remember that Aldi's do a 30 day no quibble return so with Andy's
comments in mind, and your usage isn't heavy, it might be worth buying
this saw and returning it if it is as much 'crap' as Andy suggests.

Rob

daddy...@gmail.com

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May 25, 2007, 1:01:33 PM5/25/07
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No experience of that model precisely but I have had one of the
'cheapy' end mitre saws, branded SIP, for 3 years now and it's been
invaluable.
As robgraham said, you've got the warranty if it doesn't meet it's
description.

My overall experience of cheap chinese power tools has been very
positive.

meow...@care2.com

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May 25, 2007, 2:27:19 PM5/25/07
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I've not tried the one you refer to, but have had & seen fairly mixed
results with cheap mitres. They're prone to the following problems,
which you need to check for:

1. saw head that is not rigid, producing wonky cuts. Reject any like
this, there are plenty not this bad.

2. plastic base which bends as you lean on it, misaligning the cut.
All the cheapies have this, the trick is to use a suitable clamp to
minimise pressure on the base when you need an accurate cut.

3. Guards may be not properly functional, meaning removing it is the
only way to use it.

4. Weak fence, this can be quite dangerous. I've seen one go bang very
violently while only doing light cutting. Eye protection is important
if you must buy these kind of low end goods.


NT

Andy Hall

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May 25, 2007, 2:47:19 PM5/25/07
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My main concern is much more the safety aspect of this rather than the
quality of what can be achieved. The latter depends on what the user
wants.

The safety aspect of woodworking machinery was brought home to me quite
clearly last week by a contractor who visited to do some window work.
I happened to look at his left hand and the index, middle and ring
fingers were mainly missing. He had a very thin looking thumb.
It turned out that he used to be a joiner and had been using an SCMS
from which the blade guard had been removed. As it happened, it was a
decent one, but the users just felt that the guard was a nuisance.

A moment's loss of concentration and that was that - off had come the
digits. One could see the line of the cut along the line of the
remaining stubs of fingers. The thin looking thumb wasn't the
original thumb, that was wrecked totally, but the index finger moved
along. Apparently this is common repair practice because without a
thumb or "thumb" gripping is quite restricted.

What was surprising was that he can still mnaged to do pretty much
everything. He shook my hand (left hand to left hand) and the grip was
quite surprising.

Nonetheless, it does remind one to be very careful indeed.


dennis@home

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May 25, 2007, 3:25:52 PM5/25/07
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<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1180117639.1...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

> 3. Guards may be not properly functional, meaning removing it is the
> only way to use it.

You mean it is unuseable.
You shouldn't need to take the guard of one of these saws.


> 4. Weak fence, this can be quite dangerous. I've seen one go bang very
> violently while only doing light cutting. Eye protection is important
> if you must buy these kind of low end goods.

Eye protection is needed for all of them whatever price you pay.


John Rumm

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May 25, 2007, 3:56:16 PM5/25/07
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daddy...@gmail.com wrote:

> No experience of that model precisely but I have had one of the
> 'cheapy' end mitre saws, branded SIP, for 3 years now and it's been
> invaluable.
> As robgraham said, you've got the warranty if it doesn't meet it's
> description.

Two things to keep in mind: firstly SIP is not representative of the low
end - most of their stuff is at least adequate. Secondly if you are
buying a budget mitre saw, you will tend to get a better result with a
simple mitre saw than you will with a sliding compound mitre saw. With
the SCMS the quality of the slide mechanism is very influential on the
results you can get, and how smoothly it works. There is less to get
wrong with a simple hinge.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

meow...@care2.com

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May 26, 2007, 4:59:17 AM5/26/07
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On 25 May, 20:25, "dennis@home" <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
> <meow2...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1180117639.1...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

> > 3. Guards may be not properly functional, meaning removing it is the
> > only way to use it.

> You mean it is unuseable.

I dont, no. You may do. Some of the equipment I was brought up with
had no guarding, soft start, insulating covers, etc.


NT

Andy Dingley

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May 26, 2007, 5:12:56 AM5/26/07
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On 25 May 2007 09:07:53 -0700, robgraham <robkg...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

>Just a caveat to Andy's post, and this is not in any way knocking
>Andy, but if you look through his posts on tool assessment, you will
>find that he is a high end purchaser and has high standards for tool
>purchase.

OK, just to have a different viewpoint from yet another Andy:
- It's a piece of crap and you should avoid it.

1. It's 50 quid. I can do a lot more with 50 quid than waste it on
worthless tools. I could waste it on _nice_ tools instead.

2. Anything I can do with this, I prefer to do with a £20 _hand_ tenon
saw. if pushed, I can do it with a £3 B&Q cheapie. It also does it
quietly and more accurately. OK, so it doesn't do it so quickly, but
just how much carpentry are you actually planning to do with it? Aldi
sell tools to sit on shelves, not to be used.

3. Supposing you're trade, or you have a big project. That's a fair
reason for needing the speed of such a saw, compard to sawing by hand.
In that case you'll have some sort of budget too -- so don't limit
yourself with a 50 quid hunk-o-junk.

Stuart Noble

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May 26, 2007, 9:45:20 AM5/26/07
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I know a photographer who only uses disposable cameras on holiday. His
snaps are still miles better than mine.

Doctor Drivel

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May 26, 2007, 10:45:43 AM5/26/07
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"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:4656...@nt1.hall.gl...

> On 2007-05-25 14:18:31 +0100, "Tim_UK" <my...@post.com> said:
>
>> I see aldi have a reasonably priced mitre saw coming soon -
>>
>> http://uk.aldi.com/sunday_special_buys/productnl_2218.html
>>
>>
>> has anyone any experience of this model please ?
>
> Yes, this is the lowest end Chinese generic seen in quite a few places.

I see you have no experience of this model then.

Andy Hall

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May 26, 2007, 1:06:22 PM5/26/07
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When did they let you out?


John Rumm

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May 26, 2007, 2:26:46 PM5/26/07
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Oh! Better call off the dancing on^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h Requiem service
we had planned then...

Doctor Drivel

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May 26, 2007, 3:00:34 PM5/26/07
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"John Rumm" <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:46587bf3$0$8737$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...

> Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 2007-05-26 15:45:43 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" <Min...@nospam.com> said:
>>
>>>
>>> "Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>>> news:4656...@nt1.hall.gl...
>>>> On 2007-05-25 14:18:31 +0100, "Tim_UK" <my...@post.com> said:
>>>>
>>>>> I see aldi have a reasonably priced mitre saw coming soon -
>>>>>
>>>>> http://uk.aldi.com/sunday_special_buys/productnl_2218.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> has anyone any experience of this model please ?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, this is the lowest end Chinese generic seen in quite a few places.
>>>
>>> I see you have no experience of this model then.
>>
>> When did they let you out?
>
> Oh! Better call off the dancing on^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h Requiem service we
> had planned then...

It is clear you are from Essex.

Doctor Drivel

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May 26, 2007, 3:01:36 PM5/26/07
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"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:4658...@nt1.hall.gl...

So it is clear you have experience of this saw - which the Op requested.

dennis@home

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May 26, 2007, 3:11:31 PM5/26/07
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<meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1180169957.0...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

When I were young smallpox and TB were killers too.
But treatments were developed just like guards were developed.

Many accidents are due to guards not being fitted..
its just being idle not to use the guards.


Andy Hall

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May 26, 2007, 4:41:08 PM5/26/07
to

This one is precisely the same as at least 4 others on the market other
than in the colour of the paint job.

Of course, you may believe that the paint colour affects performance
and safety......


Lurch

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May 26, 2007, 4:48:08 PM5/26/07
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On Sat, 26 May 2007 21:41:08 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
mused:

Depends how many there are.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

Doctor Drivel

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May 26, 2007, 5:19:49 PM5/26/07
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"Lurch" <myrea...@sjwelectrical.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t77h53hucsv6a4dr3...@4ax.com...

The more paint colours the better of course.

Owain

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May 26, 2007, 6:11:35 PM5/26/07
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Andy Hall wrote:
> This one is precisely the same as at least 4 others on the market other
> than in the colour of the paint job.
> Of course, you may believe that the paint colour affects performance and
> safety......

Well, if it's bright yellow you're less likely to trip over it, and if
it's barbie pink you're more likely to get your face smacked if you take
it onto a building site.

Owain


Stuart Noble

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May 27, 2007, 6:10:49 AM5/27/07
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For someone with no interest in low end tools you seem to study the
market very closely.

Doctor Drivel

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May 27, 2007, 6:18:29 AM5/27/07
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"Stuart Noble" <stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:JOc6i.6293$RP4....@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...

No. Just the colours.

Andy Hall

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May 27, 2007, 8:51:55 AM5/27/07
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On 2007-05-27 11:10:49 +0100, Stuart Noble
<stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:

I have interest in all tools and look at products from all parts of the
market when the opportunity arises.


meow...@care2.com

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May 27, 2007, 9:53:33 AM5/27/07
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On 26 May, 20:11, "dennis@home" <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
> <meow2...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:1180169957.0...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> > On 25 May, 20:25, "dennis@home" <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
> >> <meow2...@care2.com> wrote in message
>news:1180117639.1...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

> >> > 3. Guards may be not properly functional, meaning removing it is the
> >> > only way to use it.
>
> >> You mean it is unuseable.
>
> > I dont, no. You may do. Some of the equipment I was brought up with
> > had no guarding, soft start, insulating covers, etc.
>
> When I were young smallpox and TB were killers too.
> But treatments were developed just like guards were developed.
>
> Many accidents are due to guards not being fitted..

sure

> its just being idle not to use the guards.

how is it idle to not use an unusable guard?


NT

Stuart Noble

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May 27, 2007, 10:55:07 AM5/27/07
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You'd have to be totally mad to use a chopsaw without a properly
functioning guard. It's usually a build up of sawdust that stops them
moving freely.
On a table saw I regard them as optional and usually more trouble than
they're worth.

Doctor Drivel

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May 27, 2007, 11:07:45 AM5/27/07
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"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:4659...@nt1.hall.gl...

Do you prefer polka-dot?

Andy Hall

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May 27, 2007, 11:47:14 AM5/27/07
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On 2007-05-27 15:55:07 +0100, Stuart Noble
<stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:

.. or poor design, materials and manufacturing.

> On a table saw I regard them as optional and usually more trouble than
> they're worth.

They are far from being optional.


www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

" In a study of 100 accidents at woodworking machines, accidents at
circular saw benches accounted for 35% of the total, with most
resulting in the amputation of fingers. Eighty three percent of these
accidents occurred while ripping or cross cutting, and in most cases
the saw guard was either missing, or not properly adjusted. Many of
these accidents would have been avoided simply by having a correctly
adjusted saw guard and using a push stick."


Doctor Drivel

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May 27, 2007, 11:51:08 AM5/27/07
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"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:4659...@nt1.hall.gl...

operational errors, not equipment itself.

Andy Hall

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May 27, 2007, 12:32:35 PM5/27/07
to

Both.

It's operator error not to have a guard fitted when it is possible to
do so. It is certainly the machine if the guard doesn't work, sticks
or is not usable because of bad design or manufacture.


Doctor Drivel

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May 27, 2007, 1:43:25 PM5/27/07
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"Tim_UK" <my...@post.com> wrote in message
news:118009909...@damia.uk.clara.net...

>I see aldi have a reasonably priced mitre saw coming soon -
>
> http://uk.aldi.com/sunday_special_buys/productnl_2218.html
>
>
> has anyone any experience of this model please ?

Can this cut standard laminate boards?

Stuart Noble

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May 27, 2007, 2:17:01 PM5/27/07
to

What were the other 17% the result of if not ripping or cross cutting?
Sitting on it maybe?
I don't use a guard because I prefer to watch the blade. That and
listening to the motor usually gives you advance warning of mishaps. You
don't put your fingers near the blade any more than you walk in front of
cars when crossing the road. That said, I don't think anyone should use
a sawbench at all without at least some preliminary training

Kaiser

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May 27, 2007, 3:15:06 PM5/27/07
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"Doctor Drivel" <Min...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:4659c349$0$97265$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
Looked at them today, Max crosscut 200mm at 90 degrees.


Andy Hall

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May 27, 2007, 4:03:20 PM5/27/07
to
On 2007-05-27 19:17:01 +0100, Stuart Noble
<stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:

> Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 2007-05-27 15:55:07 +0100, Stuart Noble
>> <stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:
>>>>
>>>
>>> You'd have to be totally mad to use a chopsaw without a properly
>>> functioning guard. It's usually a build up of sawdust that stops them
>>> moving freely.
>>
>> .. or poor design, materials and manufacturing.
>>
>>> On a table saw I regard them as optional and usually more trouble than
>>> they're worth.
>>
>> They are far from being optional.
>>
>>
>> www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf
>>
>> " In a study of 100 accidents at woodworking machines, accidents at
>> circular saw benches accounted for 35% of the total, with most
>> resulting in the amputation of fingers. Eighty three percent of these
>> accidents occurred while ripping or cross cutting, and in most cases
>> the saw guard was either missing, or not properly adjusted. Many of
>> these accidents would have been avoided simply by having a correctly
>> adjusted saw guard and using a push stick."
>
> What were the other 17% the result of if not ripping or cross cutting?
> Sitting on it maybe?

Kickback, probably - usually through not having or removing the riving
knife or having the rip fence toe-ed in towards the blade.

> I don't use a guard because I prefer to watch the blade.

The blade can be seen perfectly easily through a properly designed guard.

> That and listening to the motor usually gives you advance warning of mishaps.

That depends on other noise and the power of the motors. If you are
wearing hearing protection, this becomes an even less reliable way of
determining the onset of a problem.

> You don't put your fingers near the blade any more than you walk in
> front of cars when crossing the road.

That's undoubtedly what the 35 people mentioned above said. I'm sure
they didn't put their fingers near the blade. Usually. Then one day
the machine leapt out and bit them since obviously they hadn't put
their fingers near the blade.

> That said, I don't think anyone should use a sawbench at all without
> at least some preliminary training

I certainly agree there.


Doctor Drivel

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May 27, 2007, 4:07:34 PM5/27/07
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"Kaiser" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:67qdnXCmLbY...@pipex.net...

Will cut them, so sounds a decent buy.

Kaiser

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May 27, 2007, 5:07:31 PM5/27/07
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"Doctor Drivel" <Min...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:4659e511$0$97249$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...

Sliding action was fairly smooth, the aluminium base felt sturdy, also had a
depth of cut adjustment.

Plus a 3 year guarantee.


Doctor Drivel

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May 27, 2007, 6:07:17 PM5/27/07
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"Kaiser" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:oNudnYJPSeB...@pipex.net...

@ £50 worth it for a first time saw.

Stuart Noble

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May 28, 2007, 6:32:53 AM5/28/07
to

IME kickback simply does not happen if you're using the saw properly
i.e. you are applying firm and even pressure downwards and forwards.
This means using your hand and standing directly in front of the
workpiece. Against that kind of pressure the belt will slip before it
throws it back at you. If you're messing about with push sticks, there
is always the chance the workpiece will lift at the back through lack of
downward pressure. I use them within an inch of the blade but not otherwise.


>
>
>
>> I don't use a guard because I prefer to watch the blade.
>
> The blade can be seen perfectly easily through a properly designed guard.

Yours doesn't get coated in sawdust then?


>
>
>
>> That and listening to the motor usually gives you advance warning of
>> mishaps.
>
> That depends on other noise and the power of the motors. If you are
> wearing hearing protection, this becomes an even less reliable way of
> determining the onset of a problem.

A good reason not to wear defenders or listen to Radio1


>
>
>
>> You don't put your fingers near the blade any more than you walk in
>> front of cars when crossing the road.
>
> That's undoubtedly what the 35 people mentioned above said. I'm sure
> they didn't put their fingers near the blade. Usually. Then one day
> the machine leapt out and bit them since obviously they hadn't put their
> fingers near the blade.

I don't believe in poltergeist or possessed machinery, but I do believe
in peoples' inability to to concentrate for very long. I expect some of
the 35 got their hair or their kipper ties caught in the blade.

Andy Hall

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May 28, 2007, 9:18:24 AM5/28/07
to
On 2007-05-28 11:32:53 +0100, Stuart Noble
<stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:
>> .
>
> IME kickback simply does not happen if you're using the saw properly
> i.e. you are applying firm and even pressure downwards and forwards.

It can do.


> This means using your hand and standing directly in front of the workpiece.

Bad idea. If it *does* kick back then the material is highly likely
to come into contact with your face, chest or genitalia.


> Against that kind of pressure the belt will slip before it throws it
> back at you.

Not necessarily. That might be the case with a small saw, but a
larger table saw is more than able to lift a substantial chunk of
material without the belt slipping .

> If you're messing about with push sticks, there is always the chance
> the workpiece will lift at the back through lack of downward pressure.
> I use them within an inch of the blade but not otherwise.

If you are having to put your fingers that close to the blade in order
to put pressure on the material, then there is something very wrong
with the fence, splitter etc.


>>
>>
>>
>>> I don't use a guard because I prefer to watch the blade.
>>
>> The blade can be seen perfectly easily through a properly designed guard.
>
> Yours doesn't get coated in sawdust then?

No it doesn't. There is quite substantial dust extraction attached
to it, carefully earthed to avoid static buildup.

>>
>>
>>
>>> That and listening to the motor usually gives you advance warning of mishaps.
>>
>> That depends on other noise and the power of the motors. If you are
>> wearing hearing protection, this becomes an even less reliable way of
>> determining the onset of a problem.
>
> A good reason not to wear defenders or listen to Radio1

It's never a good idea to listen to Radio 1. As to wearing hearing
protection on general, it is foolhardy not to do so if one values one's
hearing.

>>
>>
>>
>>> You don't put your fingers near the blade any more than you walk in
>>> front of cars when crossing the road.
>>
>> That's undoubtedly what the 35 people mentioned above said. I'm sure
>> they didn't put their fingers near the blade. Usually. Then one day
>> the machine leapt out and bit them since obviously they hadn't put
>> their fingers near the blade.
>
> I don't believe in poltergeist or possessed machinery, but I do believe
> in peoples' inability to to concentrate for very long.

That's certainly true.


> I expect some of the 35 got their hair or their kipper ties caught in
> the blade.

I am sure that some of the 100 did. The illustration was much more
about what can happen when guards are not fitted and used.


dennis@home

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May 28, 2007, 9:34:34 AM5/28/07
to

"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:465a...@nt1.hall.gl...

>> Against that kind of pressure the belt will slip before it throws it back
>> at you.
>
> Not necessarily. That might be the case with a small saw, but a larger
> table saw is more than able to lift a substantial chunk of material
> without the belt slipping .
>

I was just thinking what a 5hp motor could do with a piece of wood.
You wouldn't want to be on the end of it.
I always use a full face mask on the saw, googles just aren't going to work.


Also there is nothing wrong with using a feather board on a saw AFICS.


Stuart Noble

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May 28, 2007, 12:06:18 PM5/28/07
to

> Bad idea. If it *does* kick back then the material is highly likely to
> come into contact with your face, chest or genitalia.

If you're not standing directly behind the material you're positively
inviting kickback

> If you are having to put your fingers that close to the blade in order
> to put pressure on the material, then there is something very wrong with
> the fence, splitter etc.

Neither applies downward or forward pressure, both of which are required
if any kind of accuracy is required. How do you keep a piece of 2x1
firmly on the deck otherwise?

> The illustration was much more
> about what can happen when guards are not fitted and used.

Probably good for protecting the lowest common denominator in an
industrial setup, but way OTT for the d-i-yer, most of whom won't have
the advantage of a transparent guard. I would regard not being able to
see the blade as a bigger danger than not having the guard

Dave

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May 28, 2007, 1:58:00 PM5/28/07
to
Andy Hall wrote:

> On 2007-05-27 19:17:01 +0100, Stuart Noble
> <stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:


>> That and listening to the motor usually gives you advance warning of
>> mishaps.
>
>
> That depends on other noise and the power of the motors. If you are
> wearing hearing protection, this becomes an even less reliable way of
> determining the onset of a problem.

Speaking from experience, the dynamic range of hearing is tremendous. I
have stood under a military jet's engines, that have both running at
idle and could talk, by shouting, to someone stood at the side of me.
This was while wearing proper industrial ear defenders. So it is
possible to hear what the tool is sounding like as Stuart says.

Dave

Dave

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May 28, 2007, 2:02:53 PM5/28/07
to
Stuart Noble wrote:


> A good reason not to wear defenders or listen to Radio1

There is not a good reason 'NOT' to wear ear defenders. I worked around
jet aircraft for 25 years and I still have normal hearing for my age.

Dave

Andy Hall

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May 28, 2007, 2:34:12 PM5/28/07
to
On 2007-05-28 17:06:18 +0100, Stuart Noble
<stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:

>
>> Bad idea. If it *does* kick back then the material is highly likely
>> to come into contact with your face, chest or genitalia.
>
> If you're not standing directly behind the material you're positively
> inviting kickback

Nope.

That isn't true anyway, but is another reason to use a sliding table.
Clamp the material to that, stand to one side and there is zero
possibility of kickback.


>
>> If you are having to put your fingers that close to the blade in order
>> to put pressure on the material, then there is something very wrong
>> with the fence, splitter etc.
>
> Neither applies downward or forward pressure, both of which are
> required if any kind of accuracy is required.

If it is necessary to put fingers that close to the blade to achieve
the cut, then the method is wrong.

> How do you keep a piece of 2x1 firmly on the deck otherwise?

Assuming you mean inches here, then a power feeder is a good way.

>
>> The illustration was much more about what can happen when guards are
>> not fitted and used.
>
> Probably good for protecting the lowest common denominator in an
> industrial setup, but way OTT for the d-i-yer, most of whom won't have
> the advantage of a transparent guard. I would regard not being able to
> see the blade as a bigger danger than not having the guard

Safety is never OTT. If it isn't possible to complete an operation
safely then there is a problem with the product or its application.
Even a £100 B&Q table saw is perfectly capable of slicing through
fingers. If the guard is inadequate and has to be removed for the
saw to be used at all, the product shouldn't be on the market.
Considering the fact that the fence on low end table saws can't be
relied upon to be square, there is an obvious invitation for kickback.
To then have a guard that can't be used is compounding the felony.

It's a very weak argument to say that something is "good enough for
DIY" or that something with proper safety features is OTT for it. Try
explaining that to somebody who has just lost three fingers and a thumb
with one of these contraptions.


Stuart Noble

unread,
May 28, 2007, 3:52:49 PM5/28/07
to
Andy Hall wrote:
> On 2007-05-28 17:06:18 +0100, Stuart Noble
> <stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:
>
>>
>>> Bad idea. If it *does* kick back then the material is highly likely
>>> to come into contact with your face, chest or genitalia.
>>
>> If you're not standing directly behind the material you're positively
>> inviting kickback
>
> Nope.
>
> That isn't true anyway, but is another reason to use a sliding table.
> Clamp the material to that, stand to one side and there is zero
> possibility of kickback.

And if you're ripping?

>>> If you are having to put your fingers that close to the blade in
>>> order to put pressure on the material, then there is something very
>>> wrong with the fence, splitter etc.
>>
>> Neither applies downward or forward pressure, both of which are
>> required if any kind of accuracy is required.
>
> If it is necessary to put fingers that close to the blade to achieve the
> cut, then the method is wrong.
>
>> How do you keep a piece of 2x1 firmly on the deck otherwise?
>
> Assuming you mean inches here, then a power feeder is a good way.

Don't be silly. Even my local merchant has no power feed, and they rip
stuff on 3 phase gear all day long.

>
>>
>>> The illustration was much more about what can happen when guards are
>>> not fitted and used.
>>
>> Probably good for protecting the lowest common denominator in an
>> industrial setup, but way OTT for the d-i-yer, most of whom won't have
>> the advantage of a transparent guard. I would regard not being able to
>> see the blade as a bigger danger than not having the guard
>
> Safety is never OTT. If it isn't possible to complete an operation
> safely then there is a problem with the product or its application. Even
> a £100 B&Q table saw is perfectly capable of slicing through fingers.
> If the guard is inadequate and has to be removed for the saw to be used
> at all, the product shouldn't be on the market.
> Considering the fact that the fence on low end table saws can't be
> relied upon to be square, there is an obvious invitation for kickback.
> To then have a guard that can't be used is compounding the felony.
>
> It's a very weak argument to say that something is "good enough for DIY"
> or that something with proper safety features is OTT for it. Try
> explaining that to somebody who has just lost three fingers and a thumb
> with one of these contraptions.

They're not contraptions, they're tools designed for the use they will
get. Not everyone can afford industrial grade gear just to mess about in
their shed.
You need only two things to operate a sawbench safely, concentration and
a modicum of common sense. Without those, all the add-ons and safety
features won't help you.

Andy Hall

unread,
May 28, 2007, 4:14:49 PM5/28/07
to
On 2007-05-28 20:52:49 +0100, Stuart Noble
<stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:

> Andy Hall wrote:
>> On 2007-05-28 17:06:18 +0100, Stuart Noble
>> <stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:
>>
>>>
>>>> Bad idea. If it *does* kick back then the material is highly likely
>>>> to come into contact with your face, chest or genitalia.
>>>
>>> If you're not standing directly behind the material you're positively
>>> inviting kickback
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> That isn't true anyway, but is another reason to use a sliding table.
>> Clamp the material to that, stand to one side and there is zero
>> possibility of kickback.
>
> And if you're ripping?

Clamp the material to the table, stand to one side and cut. Ripping
doesn't have to be done against a fence.


>
>>>> If you are having to put your fingers that close to the blade in order
>>>> to put pressure on the material, then there is something very wrong
>>>> with the fence, splitter etc.
>>>
>>> Neither applies downward or forward pressure, both of which are
>>> required if any kind of accuracy is required.
>>
>> If it is necessary to put fingers that close to the blade to achieve
>> the cut, then the method is wrong.
>>
>>> How do you keep a piece of 2x1 firmly on the deck otherwise?
>>
>> Assuming you mean inches here, then a power feeder is a good way.
>
> Don't be silly.

For that particular case, it's a good way. It's not the only way.

> Even my local merchant has no power feed, and they rip stuff on 3 phase
> gear all day long.

With fingers 25mm from the fence?


>
>>
>>>
>>>> The illustration was much more about what can happen when guards are
>>>> not fitted and used.
>>>
>>> Probably good for protecting the lowest common denominator in an
>>> industrial setup, but way OTT for the d-i-yer, most of whom won't have
>>> the advantage of a transparent guard. I would regard not being able to
>>> see the blade as a bigger danger than not having the guard
>>
>> Safety is never OTT. If it isn't possible to complete an operation
>> safely then there is a problem with the product or its application.
>> Even a £100 B&Q table saw is perfectly capable of slicing through
>> fingers. If the guard is inadequate and has to be removed for the
>> saw to be used at all, the product shouldn't be on the market.
>> Considering the fact that the fence on low end table saws can't be
>> relied upon to be square, there is an obvious invitation for kickback.
>> To then have a guard that can't be used is compounding the felony.
>>
>> It's a very weak argument to say that something is "good enough for
>> DIY" or that something with proper safety features is OTT for it. Try
>> explaining that to somebody who has just lost three fingers and a thumb
>> with one of these contraptions.
>
> They're not contraptions, they're tools designed for the use they will get.

Of course. The suppliers are playing the numbers game. The
instructions are written to cover them legally but don't relate to
practical and safe use. Because usage is low, statistically, accident
rates are as well.

Designing a product down to a price, hoping that nothing bad will
happen and covering oneself just in case is not in line with safe
working or with what customers expect.


> Not everyone can afford industrial grade gear just to mess about in
> their shed.

I am sure that nobody does. However, if you were to ask whether they
are OK with losing fingers etc. based on playing around with a cheap
portable saw at low price, they may reconsider the investment


> You need only two things to operate a sawbench safely, concentration
> and a modicum of common sense.

Wrong.

> Without those, all the add-ons and safety features won't help you.

One needs those *and* proper design, manufacture and quality.
\
\

Stuart Noble

unread,
May 29, 2007, 6:22:52 AM5/29/07
to
AClamp the material to that, stand to one side and there is

>>> zero possibility of kickback.
>>
>> And if you're ripping?
>
> Clamp the material to the table, stand to one side and cut. Ripping
> doesn't have to be done against a fence.

Kindly upload a video of you ripping an 8ft length of timber in half by
this method. It really is too bizarre to contemplate.

Andy Hall

unread,
May 29, 2007, 5:37:27 PM5/29/07
to
On 2007-05-29 11:22:52 +0100, Stuart Noble
<stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:

I can do better than that. It's perfectly straightforward.

Take a look at the video at

http://www.felder-group.com/

There are sections in there on the use of the sliding table for ripping
operations as well as the use of the fence.

Then look at

http://tinyurl.com/2studs

for details of the sliding table and cross fence. These are used
mainly for panel cutting. For a large panel, additional support can
be provided by a table extension fitted to the side of the sliding
table. For example:

http://mk.felder-gruppe.at/?page=shop_node&node=691

or more typically with a parallel fence

http://mk.felder-gruppe.at/?page=shop_node&node=1363

The photo illustrates how that is used.

For narrower material, one can fit clamps to the slot in the sliding
table. e.g.

http://mk.felder-gruppe.at/?page=shop_node&node=2302

or there are after market pneumatic clamps which also work well.

The material is located against the parallel fences on the left,
clamped and then the fences backed away prior to running the sliding
table past the blade with the operator standing to the side.

An alternative approach, which will deal with even longer material and
also allows the operator to stand at the side is to use a power feeder
- e.g.

http://mk.felder-gruppe.at/?page=shop_node&node=743

plus, in this case, the rip fence.

This site has more detail on power feeders and their use:

http://www.maggi-engineering.com/jsp/livesite/ProductList.jsp?parent=4


Stuart Noble

unread,
May 30, 2007, 6:06:44 AM5/30/07
to

Andy, I've seen enough tool catalogues to last me a lifetime thanks very
much. Ł500 for a power feed indeed! If you can justify all this gear for
d-i-y (and I know you can :-)), good luck to you, but I couldn't do it,
even if I had the cash to spare. Seems such a waste.
If I want to rip 2x1 in half, I'll do it on my old TGS and be back
before the kettle's boiled (with all extremities intact).

Andy Hall

unread,
May 30, 2007, 7:10:59 AM5/30/07
to
On 2007-05-30 11:06:44 +0100, Stuart Noble

Who said that it was just for DIY?

I don't equate DIY with minimum cost but with good quality outcome done
in the way and timescale and trouble taken that I want to do. Cost is
*a* factor but not the prime one. Return on investment of time and
the results are far more important.

I certainly don't subscribe to the premise of "product is cheap and
*good enough* for DIY" - to me the two criteria are totally unrelated.

Equally, I can understand that for some people, cheapness of outlay is
the primary goal and time and quality of result are secondary.

Second point is that I don't do woodworking purely for DIY purposes -
it's also for the enjoyment of making things.

Personally, I think that people spending lots of money on cars,
cigarettes and expensive holidays is a waste but they do - presumably
because they enjoy doing so. It's somewhat difficult to cost
justify buying a Ferrari for example, but people do.


Stuart Noble

unread,
May 30, 2007, 8:30:49 AM5/30/07
to

That's the nice thing about hobbies. Reminds me of the camera culture on
EBay. "Cost Ł2000, used once. Selling due to upgrade."

Andy Hall

unread,
May 30, 2007, 1:45:42 PM5/30/07
to
On 2007-05-30 13:30:49 +0100, Stuart Noble
<stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:

>
> That's the nice thing about hobbies. Reminds me of the camera culture

> on EBay. "Cost £2000, used once. Selling due to upgrade."

Mmm.... For the most part, I've never needed to do that.

I know that some people will tend to buy an entry level tool or machine
to see if they will get value from it and then buy something better
later. This can be a reasonable philosophy for some things, but I am
not convinced that it is that many.

A few examples from when I've done this:

- I had a B&D jigsaw for many years and it got occasional use because
it simply didn't perform well - the blade would wander and even with a
fence against the side of the tool a wiggly line would result.
Generally I was able to find alternative ways to cut where a jigsaw
might be used. I formed the opinion that all jigsaws would be as bad
and that it's a limitation of the technology used. I then happened
to try out one of the Bosch blue GST range at a tool exhibition and was
quite amazed as to the difference, so bought one. It now gets quite
a bit of use.

- Case in point. A mitre saw without slide made by Delta. This
was one of a few products that were imported into Europe from this
manufacturer - part manufactured in China and part in the U.S. at the
time. It's OK as far as it goes but has issues with repeatability
for the same reasons as others in its price range which is inadequate
engineering and not the best materials used. It served and would
serve a basic purpose of cutting material but not as repeatably or
accurately as I want. Again it was clear that it's necessary to
spend more on a non-sliding mitre saw and quite a bit more on a sliding
one to have any hope of reasonable accuracy - repeatability to 0.5mm
being a minimum. I looked at several manufacturers and determined
that there were really only four that were worth considering at the
time - Makita, De Walt, Bosch and Elektra Beckum (now Metabo). IIRC,
Festool weren't making an SCMS at the time - they have one coming out
now. In my view Makita and Bosch leapfrog one another in terms of
quality, repeatability, accuracy and smoothness/firmness of mechanism
from product to product. De Walt has a model with slightly greater
cutting capacity but the mechanism is not as solid and Metabo has an
induction motor so is quiet. I'm happy with the Makita but would look
at Festool if I were buying now.

- Sometimes there are cases of very good vs, excellent. For example, I
get great use out of two Makita cordless drills - one a 14.4v model and
the other 18v. These are real workhorses - solid, reliable, good
balance and good ergonomics in use. Excellent is a Festool C12 that
I bought a couple of years back. This design is based on a stepper
motor technology that I don't believe has been repeated elsewhere.
The degree of control is outstanding. For example, I can put very
small screws into the edge of quite soft material such as MDF, complete
with countersink, exactly flush and no splitting. The screwdriver
function can be controlled to give a speed of one turn every 20 seconds
if needed together with a very sensitive electronic clutch. There are
special chuck attachments to be able to position a drill or a
screwdriver bit in line less than 10mm from an awkward corner or the
back of a cabinet. This drill/driver gets more use for small work
now than the Makita drill because of even greater control and precision.

- There are a small number of instances where I unashamedly indulge
myself. Mainly that is with hand tools. I thoroughly enjoy tending
and using several Lie-Nielsen hand planes.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/ These are used for specific purposes or
when I am particularly in the mood not to want to use machinery on a
project.

Certainly they are not inexpensive, but even then in the same price
bracket as Karl Holtey's products.

http://www.holteyplanes.com

These are outstanding, and yes I have used one. I doubt if I will
invest in one, however. Take a look on the web site and sit down
before pressing the 'prices' button.

John Rumm

unread,
May 30, 2007, 2:26:40 PM5/30/07
to
Andy Hall wrote:

> Certainly they are not inexpensive, but even then in the same price
> bracket as Karl Holtey's products.
>
> http://www.holteyplanes.com
>
> These are outstanding, and yes I have used one. I doubt if I will
> invest in one, however. Take a look on the web site and sit down
> before pressing the 'prices' button.

Wow, I think I caught myself taking a sharp intake of breath there...
before laughing!

If I paid that sort of money for a plane, I would expect to be able to
fly places in it!

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

Andy Hall

unread,
May 30, 2007, 3:45:44 PM5/30/07
to
On 2007-05-30 19:26:40 +0100, John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> said:

> Andy Hall wrote:
>
>> Certainly they are not inexpensive, but even then in the same price
>> bracket as Karl Holtey's products.
>>
>> http://www.holteyplanes.com
>>
>> These are outstanding, and yes I have used one. I doubt if I will
>> invest in one, however. Take a look on the web site and sit down
>> before pressing the 'prices' button.
>
> Wow, I think I caught myself taking a sharp intake of breath there...
> before laughing!

They are lovely, though, with the feel of a nubile young lady.

>
> If I paid that sort of money for a plane, I would expect to be able to
> fly places in it!

Mmm....

John Rumm

unread,
May 30, 2007, 5:50:05 PM5/30/07
to
Andy Hall wrote:

>>> These are outstanding, and yes I have used one. I doubt if I will
>>> invest in one, however. Take a look on the web site and sit down
>>> before pressing the 'prices' button.
>>
>> Wow, I think I caught myself taking a sharp intake of breath there...
>> before laughing!
>
> They are lovely, though, with the feel of a nubile young lady.

I am still of an age where I would rather have the nubile young lady ;-0

Andy Hall

unread,
May 30, 2007, 7:03:54 PM5/30/07
to
On 2007-05-30 22:50:05 +0100, John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> said:

> Andy Hall wrote:
>
>>>> These are outstanding, and yes I have used one. I doubt if I will
>>>> invest in one, however. Take a look on the web site and sit down
>>>> before pressing the 'prices' button.
>>>
>>> Wow, I think I caught myself taking a sharp intake of breath there...
>>> before laughing!
>>
>> They are lovely, though, with the feel of a nubile young lady.
>
> I am still of an age where I would rather have the nubile young lady ;-0

No need to limit yourself John :-)


Mark

unread,
May 30, 2007, 8:40:38 PM5/30/07
to

> Andy Hall wrote:
>
> > Certainly they are not inexpensive, but even then in the same price
> > bracket as Karl Holtey's products.
> >
> > http://www.holteyplanes.com
> >
> > These are outstanding, and yes I have used one.

But I see Mr Holtey does not need to waste money on pretentious tools when
it comes to his vice.

-

Andy Hall

unread,
May 31, 2007, 4:00:50 AM5/31/07
to

I'm sure not, and he doesn't make them either.


Stuart Noble

unread,
May 31, 2007, 8:45:46 AM5/31/07
to
Andy Hall wrote:

> - I had a B&D jigsaw for many years and it got occasional use because it
> simply didn't perform well - the blade would wander and even with a
> fence against the side of the tool a wiggly line would result.
> Generally I was able to find alternative ways to cut where a jigsaw
> might be used. I formed the opinion that all jigsaws would be as bad
> and that it's a limitation of the technology used. I then happened
> to try out one of the Bosch blue GST range at a tool exhibition and was
> quite amazed as to the difference, so bought one. It now gets quite a
> bit of use.

I paid about Ł150 for an AEG 30 years ago. It was a piece of shite from
day 1 and was in for repair twice during the guarantee period. I still
use it for odd jobs, and it has the power to cut reasonably straight,
but I could probably do better for Ł50 nowadays.


>
> - Case in point. A mitre saw without slide made by Delta. This was
> one of a few products that were imported into Europe from this
> manufacturer - part manufactured in China and part in the U.S. at the
> time. It's OK as far as it goes but has issues with repeatability for
> the same reasons as others in its price range which is inadequate
> engineering and not the best materials used. It served and would
> serve a basic purpose of cutting material but not as repeatably or
> accurately as I want. Again it was clear that it's necessary to
> spend more on a non-sliding mitre saw and quite a bit more on a sliding
> one to have any hope of reasonable accuracy - repeatability to 0.5mm
> being a minimum. I looked at several manufacturers and determined that
> there were really only four that were worth considering at the time -
> Makita, De Walt, Bosch and Elektra Beckum (now Metabo). IIRC, Festool
> weren't making an SCMS at the time - they have one coming out now. In
> my view Makita and Bosch leapfrog one another in terms of quality,
> repeatability, accuracy and smoothness/firmness of mechanism from
> product to product. De Walt has a model with slightly greater cutting
> capacity but the mechanism is not as solid and Metabo has an induction
> motor so is quiet. I'm happy with the Makita but would look at Festool
> if I were buying now.

I have the old Elu TGS flip saw, now the de Walt DW 743, which is Ł600+.
It has been a workhorse as far as the motor goes but the fence, guard
mechanism, and several other fine details are distinctly average.


>
> - Sometimes there are cases of very good vs, excellent. For example, I
> get great use out of two Makita cordless drills - one a 14.4v model and
> the other 18v. These are real workhorses - solid, reliable, good
> balance and good ergonomics in use. Excellent is a Festool C12 that I
> bought a couple of years back. This design is based on a stepper motor
> technology that I don't believe has been repeated elsewhere. The
> degree of control is outstanding. For example, I can put very small
> screws into the edge of quite soft material such as MDF, complete with
> countersink, exactly flush and no splitting. The screwdriver function
> can be controlled to give a speed of one turn every 20 seconds if needed
> together with a very sensitive electronic clutch. There are special
> chuck attachments to be able to position a drill or a screwdriver bit in
> line less than 10mm from an awkward corner or the back of a cabinet.
> This drill/driver gets more use for small work now than the Makita drill
> because of even greater control and precision.

Everything I've ever bought from Bosch has fallen apart, and tools of
theirs I've hired have been disappointing. I currently use a Kress,
which has performed very well.
The Chinese make everything and the rest of the world just stick their
own labels on it. What the true specifications are is difficult to
establish but I no longer feel that brand names are any guide to quality.

Andy Hall

unread,
May 31, 2007, 10:01:05 AM5/31/07
to
On 2007-05-31 13:45:46 +0100, Stuart Noble
<stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> said:
>
> The Chinese make everything and the rest of the world just stick their
> own labels on it.

That's not quite true. There are specific product content
requirements in terms of labelling, but leaving that aside, the Chinese
factories can turn out cr@p or good product according to customer
requirements.

Another factor is whether the product is private label (e.g. cheap
drill with JCB on the side) or are manufactured using specified designs
and materials from the eventual vendor. In addition it depends on
whether the vendor has his own QA implemented at the factory.

> What the true specifications are is difficult to establish but I no
> longer feel that brand names are any guide to quality.

To a degree they are not. One needs to look in more detail anyway
and actually look at, handle and ideally use the tool. Reviews
published over a period of time by the better quality publishers such
as Taunton are another useful data point. I don't pay too much
attention to reviews published in the UK magazines which never seem to
say anything too bad about even the worst piece of rubbish on offer.

Typically manufacturers seem to be able to be able to produce a good or
a bad tool type for quite some time. For example, De Walt and others
make good routers to the original Elu designs; Bosch make good jig
saws, Makita make good drills.

I have certainly run into issues with tools that should be of good
quality by brand and are not. One example is a DeWalt biscuit joiner
that I once had. This had a design defect whereby the fence could not
be adjusted to precisely 90 degrees - it was two degrees out.
Useless. It went back. So did the second. A Lamello replaced
it. That is precise. Had I done a bit more research, I would have
found that others had had the same issue with the DW product. So
research is quite important as well. Nowadays, I do that very
carefully before buying, but if there are defects, the product goes
straight back.


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