Central heating advice Rayburn or Electric
Andy
I'm moving to an old(1800) property in a village with no gas. I have
no room available for oil/LPG tanks, and therefore am faced with the
decision of choosing solid fuel or electric central heating. There is
currently no heating in the property, except a couple of panel
heaters.
The property itself is all 2.5ft thick solid stone. Currently dry
lined internally, but my girlfriend is keen on stripping this stuff
off and going back to the stone work. (women eh! -:) ) Will this
severely effect the heat escaping through the walls. People say this
type of build is "...warm in winter, cool in summer..." but is this
just an old wives tale? I've stuck the ground floor figures through
the Myson calculator and stone walls have the higher end U values for
heat loss (although they are 18" thick). Incidentally ground floor
requires approx 38000btu according to Myson. Yet to calculate upstairs
but 3 bedrooms and landing(rooms are about 3x4x2m, 1 window each,
wooden floors, insulated loft).
I am currently considering the Rayburn Heatranger 355M solid fuel
boiler (55000btu so upstairs needs to be less than 17000btu), for
central heating, hot water and cooking. Does anyone have any
experience of this unit they can share.
Specifcally
1. Rayburn estimate 210kg coal/week in winter for 12 rads, hot water
and cooking. Is this figure about right? There's only 2 of us so we
won't use that much hot water a day.
2. Will we need an elec oven/hob as well if we are not to starve -:).
3. Will it generate enough heat to keep the kitchen warm without any
other heater? (Myson estimates 6000btu for kitchen)
4. How many times a day/week does the ash need emptying and how much
ash will it produce?
5. Can I control central heating and hot water temperatures
separately?
6. How much coal can you fit in a 1.5m x 1m x 2m box?
The other option I have is storage heaters.
Would it be better going for storage heaters?
Can they heat a house this size?
I assume it would be cheaper to run - is this correct?
Are they flexible enough to increase/reduce heat as and when?
Any assistance with these questions, and any others I haven't thought
of would be very much appreciated.
best regards
Andy Dobbing
Gordon Henderson
Andy <andyd...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>The property itself is all 2.5ft thick solid stone. Currently dry
>lined internally, but my girlfriend is keen on stripping this stuff
>off and going back to the stone work. (women eh! -:) ) Will this
>severely effect the heat escaping through the walls. People say this
>type of build is "...warm in winter, cool in summer..." but is this
>just an old wives tale?
Myself and SWMBO lives in something similar. It's cool in summer and
'fing cold in winter.... We also have some epxosed stonework inside which
some previous owner thought looked good, so varnished it over... We are
probably going to have it etched off and rendered and plastered over at
some point. (I like it, but she doesn't!)
>I am currently considering the Rayburn Heatranger 355M solid fuel
>boiler (55000btu so upstairs needs to be less than 17000btu), for
>central heating, hot water and cooking. Does anyone have any
>experience of this unit they can share.
We've just thrown out a 55 year old Rayburn (No. 2, probably equivalent
to the 212S these days) which was coal fired and did the hot water and
probably could have run a few radiators too.
>Specifcally
>1. Rayburn estimate 210kg coal/week in winter for 12 rads, hot water
>and cooking. Is this figure about right? There's only 2 of us so we
>won't use that much hot water a day.
We were getting through about 4 or 5 bags a month. I've forgotten what
a bag weights - was it 50Kg? So thats 200-250Kg a month. We used stuff
called "Glowbrite". Fairly high sulphur content and burns hot, but not
as hot as anthracite we were told. (Which we were told to avoid as it can
melt the grate!) I imagine your stove would be bigger to do the radiators,
so might consume more coal. Sure thats not a monthly figure? It seems
very high. I think our coal bill was something like £30-£45 a month.
>2. Will we need an elec oven/hob as well if we are not to starve -:).
Heh... See earlier debates on this subject! I would say No, but
a lot of others will say yes! We didn't have anything else to cook
on when we had the Rayburn and mamaged quite well for the 6 months we
had it. Did lots of cooking as well as baking.
If you have someone at home most of the time then it'll be much easier
to control and keep topped up. If like us, both are out for most of the
day or work odd hours, then there was a lag in the evening to get it
up to full working temperature, but that was only 20 miuntes to half an
hour. About the time we'd take to prepare stuff to be cooked anyway.
We could keep the oven up to working temperature without too much trouble
most of the time. Great for heating up pies, etc. at lunchtime or baking
bread anytime. Out hotplate wasn't insulated, so we had to get the fire
going to get the hoptplate really hot, but the real trick, as has been
said before is to get stuff started on the hotplate and finish it in the
oven. All new ones now have insulated hotplates, so I doubt the hotplate
will be a problem for you.
>3. Will it generate enough heat to keep the kitchen warm without any
>other heater? (Myson estimates 6000btu for kitchen)
I think keeping the kitchen warm might be the least of your problems. (And
before anyone else chips in about the summer, we didn't have any
problems with ours. Windows and doors work wonders, but it was a good
sized kitchen.
>4. How many times a day/week does the ash need emptying and how much
>ash will it produce?
We emptied ours every morning. We had a galvy bucket to put the hot
ash into which we'd empty into the wheelie bin about once or twice a
week. We'd fill the unit up in the morning, then a shovel or 2 of coal
again in the afternoon before cooking dinner, then finally in the evening
before going to bed. Emptying the ash bucket was a dusty, messy
business. Don't do it on a windy day! But once we were used to it,
it just became part of daily routine and it took less than 10 minutes
every morning. Our Rayburn would typically stay burning for weeks on-end,
unless we were both out for more than a whole day at a time.
>5. Can I control central heating and hot water temperatures
>separately?
No idea, sorry. But I suspect that with the aid of a modern 3-way valve,
pump and controller then you might be able to. You might also need a
separate heatsink radiator to stop the water boiling in the pipes in
the summer. (our Rayburn would do that occasionally causing the header
tank to overflow when we turned the heatsink off)
>6. How much coal can you fit in a 1.5m x 1m x 2m box?
That sounds a bit bigger than the size of our old bunker which we'd use
in 4 weeks.
>The other option I have is storage heaters.
>Would it be better going for storage heaters?
>Can they heat a house this size?
>I assume it would be cheaper to run - is this correct?
>Are they flexible enough to increase/reduce heat as and when?
I had wall mounted storage heaters in my old place - even on "econoly 7"
I felt they were expensive in the winter and there was about a days lag
to any adjustments I made to them.
Where are you? If you are in a small village, there is bound to be someone
who already has a solid fuel cooker - it might be worth while chatting
to them to see what they think of it all... Every time I visit someone
where I live there seems to be a Rayburn sitting in the corner of the
kitchen!
Good luck!
Gordon
p_rone
> The property itself is all 2.5ft thick solid stone. Currently
> dry lined internally, but my girlfriend is keen on stripping
> this stuff off and going back to the stone work. (women eh! -
> :) ) Will this severely effect the heat escaping through the
> walls
It depends. If there is dry lining and insulation, there is
likely to be a noticable effect. Bear in mind that these
properties most likely would have been plastered, so
stripping out will most likely not be "restoration".
Living with bare stone may not be what she expects. You
might be able to expose an interior wall to see what
it's like.
> Incidentally ground floor
> requires approx 38000btu according to Myson. Yet to calculate
upstairs
> but 3 bedrooms and landing(rooms are about 3x4x2m, 1 window each,
> wooden floors, insulated loft).
>
> I am currently considering the Rayburn Heatranger 355M solid fuel
> boiler (55000btu so upstairs needs to be less than 17000btu), for
> central heating, hot water and cooking. Does anyone have any
> experience of this unit they can share.
I'm using a Rayburn Supreme, which is about 30 years old.
It heats a 3 bedroomed detached house with solid 9" brick
walls. The boiler output is 35,000btu's, which is OK
> Specifcally
> 1. Rayburn estimate 210kg coal/week in winter for 12 rads, hot
water
> and cooking. Is this figure about right? There's only 2 of us so
we
> won't use that much hot water a day.
Following comments are for my Rayburn, yours will be similar:
The winter consumption for sunbrite is specified as 175 Kg
per week, but I'm burning anthracite, and reckon on using
between 25KG a day if it's very cold to 25KG every two
days if it's mild. A bag of anthracite costs about L.4.
The consumption mainly depends on your central heating, so
if you use less CH, you'll use a lot less fuel. N.B. it
is hard to keep the fire burning efficiently and continuously
with very low fuel usage, so a minimum usage figure might
be a bag (25KG) every 2 1/2 to 3 days. That is adequate for
domestic hot water, but you should consider an immersion
heater for summer (see below). It's still a good idea to
use the Rayburn occasionally in the summer, say once a
week, to stop condensation from becoming a problem on
the inside of the range.
> 2. Will we need an elec oven/hob as well if we are not
> to starve -:).
You won't *need* one, but it is useful to have one for
times when you can use the above immersion.
> 3. Will it generate enough heat to keep the kitchen warm without
any
> other heater? (Myson estimates 6000btu for kitchen)
How big is your kitchen? Mine is "galley" style, about 4x2.5m,
and the above rayburn is sufficient when central heating is
in use
> 4. How many times a day/week does the ash need emptying and
> how much ash will it produce?
Twice a day. It will produce about 10% of the volume of
anthracite burned. Riddle the thing a little but often.
Don't over fuel, it will tend to clog the burning fuel
with ash.
> 5. Can I control central heating and hot water temperatures
> separately?
Probably. I've just thrown together the plumbing, and it
seems to work fine re. DHW/CH temperature.
> 6. How much coal can you fit in a 1.5m x 1m x 2m box?
Erm. A guess. 2 ton(ne)s.
> The other option I have is storage heaters.
> Would it be better going for storage heaters?
I would avoid them. A range is much nicer, so is C.H.
> Can they heat a house this size?
Storage heaters? Yes.
> I assume it would be cheaper to run - is this correct?
I doubt it. A ton(ne) of anthracite costs me about L.150,
and I might L.450s worth a year. It's cheaper to buy in
the summer (price as above else L.170).
> Are they flexible enough to increase/reduce heat as and when?
Not very.
> Any assistance with these questions, and any others I haven't
thought
> of would be very much appreciated.
Ash. Before you fuel/de-ash, open the flue damper and spin-
wheel for a minute. Most particles will then be sucked up
the chimney rather than being a nuisance. There will still
be some dusting to do every so often, though.
HTH.
________________________________________________________________
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Juliette
andyd...@btinternet.com says...
>
> The property itself is all 2.5ft thick solid stone. Currently dry
> lined internally, but my girlfriend is keen on stripping this stuff
> off and going back to the stone work. (women eh! -:) ) Will this
> severely effect the heat escaping through the walls. People say this
> type of build is "...warm in winter, cool in summer..." but is this
> just an old wives tale?
Not true here. Our walls are between two and four feet thick
granite and without proper heating it is bloody freezing in
winter. It is beautifully cool in summer. I'd leave the dry
lining for a while and see how the house feels before tearing it
out - it will be expensive if you have to put it back again.
> Specifcally
> 1. Rayburn estimate 210kg coal/week in winter for 12 rads, hot water
> and cooking. Is this figure about right? There's only 2 of us so we
> won't use that much hot water a day.
The two of us use 75kg of coal per week in the winter and less
than 50kg in the summer. Our Rayburn only does hot water though.
We use coal nuts having found that anthracite was getting through
the grate baskets at a fair rate.
> 2. Will we need an elec oven/hob as well if we are not to starve -:).
We don't need anything else but we both work from home and are
able to tend the stove during the day. I imagine that if you are
both out all day then waiting for the Rayburn to get up to
temperature could be a drag. As for cooking, I can manage bread,
cakes, souffles, stir-frys in a wok on the hob and loads of other
stuff besides. There is a knack to cooking on a Rayburn but once
you have it I don't think that you will find it limiting - I
don't.
> 3. Will it generate enough heat to keep the kitchen warm without any
> other heater? (Myson estimates 6000btu for kitchen)
Ours does but it is an older model and the newer ones may be
better insulated than ours.
> 4. How many times a day/week does the ash need emptying and how much
> ash will it produce?
It depends how often you feed it:-) Seriously, when we were
considering upgrading our Rayburn I'm sure that the refill cycle
was ridiculous (have you asked about this?) something like every
3 or 4 hours. That would generate a lot of ash. We empty ours
once daily and provided nobody (eg: HWTNNOM) has just riddled it
before opening then dust isn't a problem. We feed it two or three
times daily in the winter and once daily during the summer.
We decided to get a stove that was capable of running the central
heating for the sitting room. The Rayburn does the hot water and
we keep it in all year round - only letting the fire out for the
sweep's visits and the occasional pre-maternal-visit cleaning
blitz! We don't have any problem with an overheated kitchen in
the summer and the kitchen is always lovely and warm in the
winter. The stove that runs the central heating runs during the
winter only.
> 6. How much coal can you fit in a 1.5m x 1m x 2m box?
You could get a week's supply (per Rayburn estimate) in there no
problem.
> The other option I have is storage heaters.
> Would it be better going for storage heaters?
I had storage heaters in a small, well insulated modern flat.
They were fine - I rarely felt cold and my fuel bills were
reasonable, I'm not sure how they'd cope with this draughty old
pile. Not very well I'd guess but it is only a guess.
Juliette
--
The Natural Philosopher
Andy wrote:
> Hi
> I'm moving to an old(1800) property in a village with no gas. I have
> no room available for oil/LPG tanks, and therefore am faced with the
> decision of choosing solid fuel or electric central heating. There is
> currently no heating in the property, except a couple of panel
> heaters.
If you have room for a ton of coal you have room for 1000 liters of oil.
whatever you do, don't use solid fuel, its awful, or electricity, its
really expensive.
>
> The property itself is all 2.5ft thick solid stone. Currently dry
> lined internally, but my girlfriend is keen on stripping this stuff
> off and going back to the stone work. (women eh! -:) ) Will this
> severely effect the heat escaping through the walls.
Probably.
> People say this
> type of build is "...warm in winter, cool in summer..." but is this
> just an old wives tale?
Up to a point, no. Thick walls - even stone ones - do insulate, and the
mass equalises night and day temperatures a lot.
However even 2.5ft of stone has a U value of something like 2 - not bad,
but even 10mm of decent insulation is better than that. I'd keep the dry
lining if I were you.
> I've stuck the ground floor figures through
> the Myson calculator and stone walls have the higher end U values for
> heat loss (although they are 18" thick). Incidentally ground floor
> requires approx 38000btu according to Myson. Yet to calculate upstairs
> but 3 bedrooms and landing(rooms are about 3x4x2m, 1 window each,
> wooden floors, insulated loft).
Not too bad with small windows then. But those walls, those walls...
>
> I am currently considering the Rayburn Heatranger 355M solid fuel
> boiler (55000btu so upstairs needs to be less than 17000btu), for
> central heating, hot water and cooking. Does anyone have any
> experience of this unit they can share.
>
> Specifcally
> 1. Rayburn estimate 210kg coal/week in winter for 12 rads, hot water
> and cooking. Is this figure about right? There's only 2 of us so we
> won't use that much hot water a day.
> 2. Will we need an elec oven/hob as well if we are not to starve -:).
> 3. Will it generate enough heat to keep the kitchen warm without any
> other heater? (Myson estimates 6000btu for kitchen)
> 4. How many times a day/week does the ash need emptying and how much
> ash will it produce?
ash needs emptying a minimum of twice a day, and you need - to keep it
all hot - to add a *little* coal 4 times a day ideally. If you are out
all day, then you can fill up morning and evening..leastways all teh
solid fuel stuff I have ever used was about that sort of pattern.
> 5. Can I control central heating and hot water temperatures
> separately?
> 6. How much coal can you fit in a 1.5m x 1m x 2m box?
>
About 6 tons I would estimate. Roughly 10 weeks usage. or about 2500
liters of oil. More than enough for 3 moths usage :-)
> The other option I have is storage heaters.
> Would it be better going for storage heaters?
Rock and a hard place?
> Can they heat a house this size?
If you have enough, yes.
> I assume it would be cheaper to run - is this correct?
> Are they flexible enough to increase/reduce heat as and when?
More expensive and less flexible. IMHO completely useless except to warm
bedrooms overnight. They NEVER have any heat left at 10pm.
>
> Any assistance with these questions, and any others I haven't thought
> of would be very much appreciated.
Forget the whole thing, and work out how you are going to get an oil
tank in. If you can get coal in, you can get oil in.
>
> best regards
> Andy Dobbing
>
David Cawkwell
available.
It seems to cook reasonably well provided your not in a hurry for it to heat
up.
Our kitchen also has a calor gas cooker. No grill on a rayburn.
Most of the time the oil boiler is in use though. It's simply easier and the
fuel
works out fairly cheap.
You could have a LPG tank underground which doesn't cost that much more
if space is a problem.
Having said the above when my old oil boiler quites I think I'll save up for
an alpha cooker which is similar to a rayburn can do loads of radiators
and cook on demand oil or gas fired about 5k ouch!
"Andy" <andyd...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:79f66c11.03011...@posting.google.com...