Completely serious angle grinder question

[Bert Coules]

I need an angle grinder for very occasional use, initially to trim some
slates. Any recommendations? Screwfix have a basic-looking Energer model
for an amazing £17.49, with a Bosch at £34.99 and an Hitachi at just under
the £50 mark (the only one of these which comes with a disc). Toolstation
have a Makita with disc at £54.72. There is a Lidl fairly near me
advertising their Parkside 2000W model (no disc) at £34.99, but it won't be
available until the 4th of May and there doesn't seem to be a way of
checking local availability online anyway.

Price isn't everything but obviously I don't want to pay more than I have
to. Many thanks.

[Scott M]

Bert Coules wrote:

> Price isn't everything but obviously I don't want to pay more than I
> have to. Many thanks.

I bought a B&Q's own crappola PowerPro job in about 1997 for a one off
job. It's still going strong now having then discovered just how useful
they are. I even stripped down and re-greased the gearbox a few years
ago as a mark of its good service!

Mind you, for £35 the Bosch sounds cheap enough to avoid the non-name stuff.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

[Bert Coules]

Scott,

Thanks for that. The Bosch is also lighter than some, at 1.9kg, which is
quite an important factor I'd have thought.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

...Though the £49.99 Hitachi (which has a disc and a case) is even lighter.
I think this is my current favourite option.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/hitachi-g12ss-4-angle-grinder-110v/62564

Bert

[tabb...@gmail.com]

For occasional use a cheap Ferm is more than good enough. The one brand to totally avoid is power devil. A site boss bought several PD tools, all were dead 30 days later.


NT

[Bert Coules]

NT wrote:

> For occasional use a cheap Ferm...

Thanks for that. I haven't come across any Ferm models in my searching:
I'll have a specific look.

Bert

[Adrian]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:54:41 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

> I need an angle grinder for very occasional use, initially to trim some
> slates. Any recommendations? Screwfix have a basic-looking Energer
> model for an amazing £17.49, with a Bosch at £34.99 and an Hitachi at
> just under the £50 mark (the only one of these which comes with a disc).

No-brainer, the Bosch.

Don't let "comes with a disc" swing anything - they're a consumable that
really doesn't last very long at all. Get a pack of the right ones for
what you're cutting/grinding, and be willing to swap 'em when they start
to show they're "going off". Or, of course, when they turn into a handy
shirt button.

[Malcolm Race]

Ferm was the Screwfix 'Own Brand' a number of years ago. I have a number
of Ferm tools which ar good for my DIY needs but I suspect that Ferm has
been replaced by a different 'Own Brand'

Malcolm

[Bert Coules]

Adrian wrote:

> No-brainer, the Bosch.

Thanks for that, and the advice about packaged discs. The idea of a case is
appealing though, and the Bosch doesn't have one of those. Whether the
extra cost for, say, the Hitachi is worth it just for the case (and one
disc) though, is another matter.

Bert

[charles]

In article <a-adnRf-xd679qLI...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert Coules

I bought a Bosch quite some years ago - probably about 25. It still works
fine, but I only use it ocasionally.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Bert Coules]

Charles,

> I bought a Bosch quite some years ago - probably about 25. It still works

> fine, but I only use it occasionally.

Thanks. I have a couple of Bosch low-end power tools and they've always been
entirely reliable and satisfactory.

Bert

[Adrian]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 12:12:38 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

> The idea of a case is appealing though, and the Bosch doesn't have one
> of those. Whether the extra cost for, say, the Hitachi is worth it
> just for the case (and one disc) though, is another matter.

I have a case for my (low-end, about £40 some years ago) Makita. TBH,
it's a pita. Trying to get the cable to get in the case and stay there
whilst I latch it, especially if there's a few discs in there too... and
if you had the side-handle on, it'd need to be removed before putting it
away. Sure, it keeps it tidy and the spanner handy (if I've put it back
in!), but it takes up a LOT more space than just the grinder would.

How organised are you?

If you're disorganised, you won't use it, just trip over it, and the
spanner and discs'll never be in it anyway.

If you're hyper-organised, you don't need it, because you'll always be
able to find the spanner and the discs and the handle.

If you're somewhere in the middle, it may or may not get properly used
and be a benefit...

[Bert Coules]

Adrian,

Thanks for that excellent analysis, and for reminding me what a struggle it
is to get my corded B&D circular saw back in its extremely snug-fit box. I
am, I think, hyper-organised albeit with occasional lapses.

The several recommendations for the Bosch are making that the current
front-runner.

Bert

[Adrian]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 13:55:05 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

> The several recommendations for the Bosch are making that the current
> front-runner.

...and the final clincher for me...?

Bosch are that rare thing - an ethically-owned business. 92% owned by a
charity set up by the founder of the business, which uses the profits for
philanthropic, development, educational, healthcare charitable purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_Stiftung

(No, I don't work for Bosch. If I did work in their marketing dept, I'd
be shouting about that a lot more than they inexplicably don't seem to.)

[Bert Coules]

Interesting, Adrian: I didn't know that. As you say, they don't make a song
and dance about it.

Bert

[Clive George]

I wonder if it might be counterproductive in many of their markets.

It is interesting to see how it has done so well - most of their profits
go back into the company, which is rather the opposite of most
companies. I wonder if there's a lesson there for anybody else?

(wikipedia has 2004 numbers - $2.1b profit, $72m to the charity, $6m to
the family, rest back into the company. Can you imagine any owner
settling for that little over here?)

[GB]

You haven't said whether you want a 4.5" angle grinder or a 9" one.

You get a much bigger depth of cut with the 9", naturally. My 9" one is
really heavy, and if I were buying one of those again, I'd consider the
weight as very important in my decision.

The difference in weight of the smaller ones is not so important that
I'd pay extra. My cheapo brand just soldiers on, so why pay more?

They are really frightening devices, but so far none of the discs has
come apart. Some people use the smaller ones one-handed, but I always
hold mine with both hands, even the smaller one, as that way I can't
inadvertently cut a finger off.

[Bert Coules]

GB wrote:

> You haven't said whether you want a 4.5" angle grinder or a 9" one.

True, and it was a foolish oversight, though perhaps the prices I quoted
would have furnished a clue: it's a 4.5" model I need. I take your point
about the weight being more important in the larger sizes.

> My cheapo brand just soldiers on, so why pay more?

What brand is that? Some appear to have better recommendations than others.

Thanks for your reply.

Bert

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 03:38:25 -0700 (PDT), tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

> The one brand to totally avoid is power devil. A site boss bought
> several PD tools, all were dead 30 days later.

Pretty sure it was Power Devil(*) orbital sander that exploded on me.
The dicast metal backing plate just disintegrated. Lumps taken out of
wall and I was finding bits of shrapnel all over the room for ages.

(*) Pale grey red fittings, dark adjustable front handle.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Bert Coules]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

> Pretty sure it was Power Devil(*) orbital sander that exploded on me...

My word, thanks for the warning. Bad enough in a sander, but a violently
self-destroying angle grinder doesn't really bear thinking about. The Bosch
is looking better and better.

Bert

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 12:48:51 +0000 (UTC), Adrian wrote:

> I have a case for my (low-end, about £40 some years ago) Makita. TBH,

> it's a pita. Trying to get the cable to get in the case and stay there
> whilst I latch it,

That is a problem with nearly all the cased power tools I have. Why
don't they make a bit of space for the cable to be coiled (coiled,
*not* folded) into?

But I like cases despite the agro of getting the cable in. Keeps the
tool clean and protected, other wise it would end up in a plastic
storeage crate with other uncased power tools dumped on top and of
course the one you want would be at the bottom and the cables would
have got knitted...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 14:26:41 +0100, Clive George wrote:

>> Bosch are that rare thing - an ethically-owned business. 92% owned
by a
>> charity set up by the founder of the business, which uses the
profits
>> for philanthropic, development, educational, healthcare charitable

>> purposes.

Didn't know that, a bit odd that they don't make a thing of it but is
that because of a belief system and just "what you do" so to them it
isn't anything "odd"

> (wikipedia has 2004 numbers - $2.1b profit, $72m to the charity, $6m to
> the family, rest back into the company.

And, presumably, the tax man... B-)

11 year old figures though, what are the intervening years like?

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Bert Coules]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

> But I like cases...

Can you buy generic cases in the appropriate sizes (or a bit bigger)? It's
never occurred to me to look: I'll have a search.

Bert

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:54:41 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

> I need an angle grinder for very occasional use, initially to trim some
> slates. Any recommendations? Screwfix have a basic-looking Energer
> model for an amazing £17.49, with a Bosch at £34.99 and an Hitachi at
> just under the £50 mark (the only one of these which comes with a disc).

Of those I'd go for the Bosch. In green casings they are the
"reasonably made budget" tools. Things whiz around rather quickly in
an angle grinder, I'd not want corners to be cut on those parts.

Discs are consumables, the fibre based cutting ones don't last five
minutes. I got an angle grinder for the same reason as you, I think
it came with a disc and I bought another so as "not to run out". Bah,
I'd only done about 3/4 of the 15' or so of trimming I needed to do
before both discs were shirt buttons. Get a diamond disc, the kerf
will be less and it'll last a damn sight longer than fibre ones.
Smaller kerf means less dust but still a lot of dust...

But do you need an angle grinder?(*) Are these slates yet to be
fitted? Can't you trim them the traditional way with machete and iron
edge?

(*) Silly question of course you do, it's a tool, you can never have
too many tools. I did resist the Lidl cordless SDS though and that
would be useful as the hammer drill is next to useless on the stone
here. But I got side tracked by the Sabre Saw right next to it for
£29.99 and packs of 3 blades for £2.99.

I have a large pile of 2nd user timber that needs cutting for the
woodburner. It wasn't going to happen by hand... Now I'm just waiting
for the weather, between -5 and -10 windchill today but most of the
snow has melted.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[mike]

Those are the colours of Performance Power Pro (the brand that Scott M reports he's had for nearly 20 years and is still going strong). Power Devil were red, and ceased to exist as a brand many years ago, so the likelihood of Bert buying one is fairly remote.

Power Devil in the UK and Ferm (who are still going in the Netherlands) used to buy the same Chinese OEM models but obviously in their own colours. The previous posting about Ferm being good and Power Devil being no good reminds me of the market research done for a new bleach some years ago. Consumers were given three bottles of bleach: a yellow one, a blue one and a yellow-and-blue one and asked to test them. The yellow was weak and ineffective. The blue was too harsh. The yellow-and-blue was just right. Of course, the bottles contained identical bleach.

For the record, I have a Power Devil router that has been doing sterling service for years and I had one of their reciprocating saws that was crap and eventually emitted magic smoke and went for recycling.

The Bosch is a good price for a branded model and seems better than the other £35 offerings from Screwfix but the £20 125mm Lidl/Parkside one from a few weeks ago fits your original requirements too. The Lidl one you've linked to is a full size 230mm model.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:05:00 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

>> But I like cases...
>
> Can you buy generic cases in the appropriate sizes (or a bit bigger)?
> It's never occurred to me to look: I'll have a search.

Yes but supplied tool cases are generally blow moulded and shaped to
hold the tool in the case without it rattling about. A generic case
may come with that horrible cubed pluck foam that doesn't last and is
not very high density either. Almost any power tool will be too heavy
to be propely protected/held.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Bert Coules]

Mike wrote:

> ...the Ł20 125mm Lidl/Parkside one from a few weeks

> ago fits your original requirements too.

Is it still available, though? I know that Lidl stuff comes and goes, and
there doesn't seem to be any way of checking availability, short of going to
a store.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

> Of those I'd go for the Bosch...

Another vote. Thanks.

> But do you need an angle grinder?

Passing quickly over "Of course you do" (which is, of course, a very valid
point) yes, I do: I do have an excellent slate guillotine but the ones that
have to be trimmed are already immovably in situ.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

> Yes but supplied tool cases are generally blow moulded and shaped to
> hold the tool in the case without it rattling about.

Sure, but even a case which only holds a tool loosely will surely give the
tool more protection than just chucking it into a large box full of similar
items. It would also ensure that accessories and so on are all kept
together.

Bert

[The Medway Handyman]

On 28/04/2015 10:54, Bert Coules wrote:
> I need an angle grinder for very occasional use, initially to trim some
> slates. Any recommendations? Screwfix have a basic-looking Energer
> model for an amazing £17.49, with a Bosch at £34.99 and an Hitachi at
> just under the £50 mark (the only one of these which comes with a

> disc). Toolstation have a Makita with disc at £54.72. There is a Lidl
> fairly near me advertising their Parkside 2000W model (no disc) at
> £34.99, but it won't be available until the 4th of May and there doesn't
> seem to be a way of checking local availability online anyway.
>
> Price isn't everything but obviously I don't want to pay more than I
> have to. Many thanks.
>
>

I have a MacAllister which has been used twice if you want a 'pre loved'
one. Bought it because I'd left my Makita on a job & didn't have time
yo go back for it (I have now).



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[The Medway Handyman]

On 28/04/2015 17:45, Bert Coules wrote:
> Mike wrote:
>
>> ...the £20 125mm Lidl/Parkside one from a few weeks

Most AG take 115mm discs. 125mm discs aren't as common.

[GB]

On 28/04/2015 16:34, Bert Coules wrote:
> GB wrote:
>
>> You haven't said whether you want a 4.5" angle grinder or a 9" one.
>
> True, and it was a foolish oversight, though perhaps the prices I quoted
> would have furnished a clue: it's a 4.5" model I need. I take your
> point about the weight being more important in the larger sizes.
>

I ended up with both. I got the 4.5" one for slicing through some angle
iron, and discovered that the depth of cut is under an inch - the
housing and the guard get in the way. So, I got a 9" one as well. It's a
real beast. It's definitely worth finding a job that requires one!

>> My cheapo brand just soldiers on, so why pay more?
>
> What brand is that? Some appear to have better recommendations than
> others.

Power Devil. Didn't somebody else say they are no good? Anyway, mine has
lasted the best part of 20 years' occasional use and shows no sign at
all of giving up the ghost.

[Bert Coules]

The Medway Handyman wrote:

> I have a MacAllister which has been used twice if you want a 'pre loved'

> one...

Thanks for the offer Dave, but I'm hoping to pick something up locally first
thing tomorrow. Screwfix's Bosch is sounding like an ideal choice.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

GB wrote:

> Power Devil.

Ah right, thanks.

> Didn't somebody else say they are no good?

I'm slightly reeling from trying to take all all the information that's been
offered, but I think that was a mis-identification.

Bert

[Harry Bloomfield]

Bert Coules explained :

> The idea of a case is appealing though, and the Bosch doesn't have one of
> those. Whether the extra cost for, say, the Hitachi is worth it just for the
> case (and one disc) though, is another matter.

Cases for equipment are a bit of a pita to use, with anything which has
cables or which you need to add extras like disks or bits. I have four
angle grinders, all kept in a drawer, the various sized and types of
cuttings disks stacked on a shelf, their spanners hung together.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

[Bert Coules]

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

> Cases for equipment are a bit of a pita to use, with anything which has
> cables or which you need to add extras like disks or bits.

Cases specially made for specific tools can be, yes. But a simple firm
plastic box with a lid, large enough to take the tool plus any bits and
pieces but not so huge that they rattle around could be extremely useful,
especially where storage space is limited and things have to be stacked up
slightly.

But do cases like that exist? A Google search for "tool box" and "tool
case" produces only big containers intended for lots of different tools.

Bert

[mike]

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 6:28:28 PM UTC+1, The Medway Handyman wrote:
> On 28/04/2015 17:45, Bert Coules wrote:
> > Mike wrote:
> >
> >> ...the £20 125mm Lidl/Parkside one from a few weeks
> >> ago fits your original requirements too.
> >
> > Is it still available, though? I know that Lidl stuff comes and goes,
> > and there doesn't seem to be any way of checking availability, short of
> > going to a store.
> >
> > Bert
> >
> Most AG take 115mm discs. 125mm discs aren't as common.

Wouldn't you rather have an extra centimetre? (And it'll obviously take 115mm discs too.)

But if Bert's local store don't have them any more, it's academic.

[fred]

In article <7_CdnfWMDch8xaLI...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes

>I need an angle grinder for very occasional use, initially to trim some
>slates. Any recommendations? Screwfix have a basic-looking Energer model
>for an amazing £17.49, with a Bosch at £34.99 and an Hitachi at just under
>the £50 mark (the only one of these which comes with a disc). Toolstation
>have a Makita with disc at £54.72. There is a Lidl fairly near me
>advertising their Parkside 2000W model (no disc) at £34.99, but it won't be
>available until the 4th of May and there doesn't seem to be a way of
>checking local availability online anyway.
>
>Price isn't everything but obviously I don't want to pay more than I have
>to. Many thanks.
>

One tip to add to all advice given:

For all 'aggressive' power tools[1] I wear a riggers or other medium
tough glove on my free hand. The idea is that should an error result in
inadvertent contact with the moving disk/blade/cutter then the first
contact is not with your skin but with some basic inanimate protection,
giving you the chance to withdraw your hand (rapidly) before serious
damage is done.

[1] Planer, router, power saw, angle grinder etc
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

[Tony Bryer]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:58:10 +0100 Bert Coules wrote :
> Sure, but even a case which only holds a tool loosely will surely give the
> tool more protection than just chucking it into a large box full of similar
> items. It would also ensure that accessories and so on are all kept
> together.

I keep my cordless tools in zip canvas bags bought from a tourist
souvenir stand at the market, $5 each. Each bag a different design
so I know which is which.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

[GB]

I think the withdrawal had better be damn rapid! I'd say the score will
be Angle grinder: 1 - Glove : 0.

:)

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 20:18:10 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

> But a simple firm plastic box with a lid, large enough to take the tool
> plus any bits and pieces but not so huge that they rattle around could
> be extremely useful, especially where storage space is limited and
> things have to be stacked up slightly.
>
> But do cases like that exist?

Try "really useful box" quite range of sizes from 64 litres down to
not much more than a couple of table spoons in volume.

One would have to decide on a size and stick to it if you wanted then
to stack neatly. Though I think some combinations can have two
smaller ones cross ways on one larger one.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[PeterC]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 16:43:46 +0100 (BST), Dave Liquorice wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 12:48:51 +0000 (UTC), Adrian wrote:
>

>> I have a case for my (low-end, about £40 some years ago) Makita. TBH,

>> it's a pita. Trying to get the cable to get in the case and stay there
>> whilst I latch it,
>
> That is a problem with nearly all the cased power tools I have. Why
> don't they make a bit of space for the cable to be coiled (coiled,
> *not* folded) into?
>

Even the Makita jig saw is difficult to get in, as is the Lidl SDS etc.
The Bosch Multitool in its L-Boxx is very easy and has plenty of room for
the flex and tools and instructions and plenty of spares.


--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[Scott M]

Funnily enough, reminds me of the second outing for my first angle
grinder. It had been sitting in a box for a couple of years and I
suddenly remembered it when I was trying to undo a mullered brake
caliper bolt. It was 5pm in December and I was full of cold.

I'd donned gloves, goggles & ear defenders and was hacking away when
suddenly, schoomp, it sliced its way through one of the glove's fingers
though thankfully not deep enough to get me.

I forget quite how I must have been contorted for it to bite a finger,
but it taught me exactly how much care and attention one must pay to the
business end of such tools and where to keep body parts in relation to them!

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

[stuart noble]

Er, you don't need a grinder to cut slate.....:-)

[Adrian]

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 01:02:09 +0100, GB wrote:

>> One tip to add to all advice given:
>>
>> For all 'aggressive' power tools[1] I wear a riggers or other medium
>> tough glove on my free hand. The idea is that should an error result in
>> inadvertent contact with the moving disk/blade/cutter then the first
>> contact is not with your skin but with some basic inanimate protection,
>> giving you the chance to withdraw your hand (rapidly) before serious
>> damage is done.

> I think the withdrawal had better be damn rapid! I'd say the score will
> be Angle grinder: 1 - Glove : 0.

I'd agree, but I can see the logic.

For a light graze or similar snick of your finger, it'll be the
difference between blood and a wake-up call. Obviously, for anything more
- umm - determined, it's going to make bugger all difference.

Rather more to the point, though, where the bloody hell are you buying
rigger gloves that you'd realistically call "medium tough"?

Last few pairs I've bought have been about as tough as a pair of blue
nitriles. Never mind shrugging off angle-grinders, they've not even coped
with brambles. Always assuming all the seams have actually been intact to
start with.

[Bert Coules]

Stuart Noble wrote:

> Er, you don't need a grinder to cut slate...

Whether you do or not depends entirely on the circumstances.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 09:39:34 -0700 (PDT), mike wrote:

>> Pretty sure it was Power Devil(*) ...
<snip>

>> (*) Pale grey red fittings, dark adjustable front handle.
>

> Those are the colours of Performance Power Pro ...

Ah now you mention that and Power Devil being red it all comes back
yes the exploding random orbital sander was a "Performance Power
Pro".

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Bert Coules]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

> Try "really useful box" quite range of sizes from 64 litres down to
> not much more than a couple of table spoons in volume.

Thanks for that; I'll take a look.

Bert

[Harry Bloomfield]

Bert Coules formulated the question :

If you have room, old office filing cabinets make for good equipment
storage and you can get them for just a thank you.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 09:20:54 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

>> Er, you don't need a grinder to cut slate...
>
> Whether you do or not depends entirely on the circumstances.

Aye, I needed one as like you the slates needing an 1" or less
trimmed off their edge where already attached to the roof.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[fred]

In article <mhp706$o31$1...@dont-email.me>, GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com>
writes

My suggestion was to assist the careful user who might not have noticed
that their free hand was creeping closer to the disk/blade/cutter than
was safe. If someone is in the habit of blithely poking their bits into
the pointy end then I don't think there's anything that will save them
from themselves.

[Bert Coules]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

> Aye, I needed one as like you the slates needing an 1" or less
> trimmed off their edge where already attached to the roof.

My situation is similar. Though there's no roof involved, the slates are
positioned such that any undue force such as shearing or nibbling would not
be a good idea.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

> If you have room, old office filing cabinets make for good equipment
> storage and you can get them for just a thank you.

I haven't acquired any for a good few years, but back then I paid something
like £15 each for secondhand cabinets and a great deal more than that to
have them delivered. I discovered afterwards that it wouldn't have cost
much more to have bought new from a local company which offered free
delivery.

But assuming it could be done more economically, it's a good idea. Thanks.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Well, I am now the owner of the Bosch GS600 4.5" angle grinder. The tool
seems to be very well made, but the package as a whole is seriously lacking.
Firstly, there's no supplied Allen key for fitting the blade guard: how many
casual users won't bother, I wonder? But more seriously, the instructions
are hopeless: despite being a 261 page book in 31 different languages,
crucial information is rendered only in uncaptioned illustrations, peppered
with childish icons and buried away at the end of the manual. What's worse,
several different models are illustrated, including, inexplicably, a
circular saw.

Most disturbing of all, as far as I can see there is no information
whatsoever about the controls and their functions. Am I expected to learn
by simply having a play with the thing? Frankly I'm reluctant even to plug
it in. I'm seriously considering taking it back.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Bert Coules expressed precisely :

Local Freegle always have them listed as free to a good home, those
plus desks, plus printers, but transport is always a problem. They
don't make do and mend like they used to, they just buy new.

[Bert Coules]

OK, a correction: there is an Allen key. I found it clipped to the mains
lead and invisible in the coils.

But I was right about the instructions: not one word about the controls,
their locations and their function.

The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock. Presumably
it's the small circular button on the head of the machine. But I've no idea
why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch in
general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder unplugged)
until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general use is it
recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in its temporary
position?

Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

Bert

[Adrian]

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 14:52:02 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

> Most disturbing of all, as far as I can see there is no information
> whatsoever about the controls and their functions.

What "controls" are there, apart from a switch?

[Bert Coules]

Adrian wrote:

> What "controls" are there, apart from a switch?

I'm not clear why you thought it necessary to use inverted commas, but apart
from the on-off switch (which has a locking function) there's also,
apparently, a spindle lock. As I said above, the manual gives no indication
whatsoever as to when these locks should be applied and why.

Bert

[Adrian]

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 15:46:32 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

> The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock.
> Presumably it's the small circular button on the head of the machine.
> But I've no idea why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

It's there to lock the spindle so that you can unscrew the collar holding
the disc on.

> Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch
> in general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder
> unplugged) until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general
> use is it recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in
> its temporary position?

Depends on how you intend to use it. If you're just tickling something,
don't lock it. If it's going to be on for any extended time, use it -
especially if it helps you to move your hand around so you can use the
grinder in a tight space.

> Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

They're absolutely common to all angle grinders. Have you ever used one
before?

[Bert Coules]

Adrian thanks for your reply and the information.

> They're absolutely common to all angle grinders.
> Have you ever used one before?

No I haven't, and I surely can't be the only purchaser in that position.

Looking at other models on the Screwfix website I downloaded the manual for
their sub-£18 Energer. What a difference: it's written in clear, correct
English with no puerile pictures, covers all the essentials and generally
imparts a real feeling of confidence that the user can handle the tool
properly and safely.

Bert

[Adrian]

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 16:15:35 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:

>> They're absolutely common to all angle grinders.
>> Have you ever used one before?

> No I haven't

OK... Angle grinder basics...

WEAR GOGGLES. ALWAYS. I MEAN... ALWAYS.

They can bite. They can really bite.

When you first switch 'em on, there can be quite a kick of torque. Be
ready.

They take a little while to spin down after switching off. This is when I
usually catch something I didn't intend to and didn't want to.

If you're using a cutting disc, always use the edge, not the face, and
never be tempted to try to grind with it.

Cut or grind at the wrong angle, and you will get vicious kickback. Be
prepared.

Don't try and "flex" a thin cutting disc. If you drop it, and you think
the disc hit the ground anything more than trivially, bin the disc. You
REALLY don't want bits of disc flying around.

If you've been cutting bolts or anything particularly solid and metal,
the piece WILL be hot. Hotter than you think. For longer than you think.
Much hotter and longer... Don't pick it up.

Others can probably fill in the gaps, especially when it comes to slate -
I tend to use 'em on steel.

> Looking at other models on the Screwfix website I downloaded the manual
> for their sub-£18 Energer. What a difference: it's written in clear,
> correct English with no puerile pictures

Probably because they're not trying to cater for every language in one
manual, since the branding (and manual) is UK-only... <shrug>

I still wouldn't trust even the best-written manual in the world to show
me how to use a potentially very dangerous power tool, though - and a
good manual can lead you into a false sense of security.

[fred]

In article <o9SdnRXSC49Vc93I...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes

I have to agree with you there, the instructions should be clear and
unambiguous, and not require you to go on a training course (either in
tool handling or confusicon interpretation)<!>.

On the subject of fitting the guard or not, I would heartily recommend
that you do. If you do then you have an extra place to rest valuable
(gloved) fingers against when holding (always use 2 hands on the beast)
and if you don't then it is all too easy for a hand to get too close or
to slip.

I have had to use an angle grinder without a guard in the past for
access reasons but IMV it would be foolish not to use it where you
feasibly could.

[Bert Coules]

Adrian, thanks for that. I had in fact done my own online research into the
basics but it's good to have them repeated.

I wouldn't expect an instruction manual to be a substitute for proper
training or professional advice, but I would expect it to cover the absolute
fundamentals. I'm really rather shocked that the Bosch does not.

Bert

[charles]

In article <o9SdnRXSC49Vc93I...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert Coules

<ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote:
> OK, a correction: there is an Allen key. I found it clipped to the mains
> lead and invisible in the coils.

> But I was right about the instructions: not one word about the controls,
> their locations and their function.

> The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock.
> Presumably it's the small circular button on the head of the machine.
> But I've no idea why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

it's there so that you can undo the securing nut without the spindle
turning.

> Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch in
> general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder
> unplugged) until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general
> use is it recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in
> its temporary position?

> Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

> Bert

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[charles]

In article <z6adnT29zuoLb93I...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert Coules

The spindle lock is no more a control than the wheel brace is on a car.

[Bert Coules]

Charles wrote:

> The spindle lock is no more a control than the wheel brace is on a car.

An interesting viewpoint. Given that the spindle lock directly affects -
which is to say, controls - whether or not the spindle rotates, I'm inclined
to disagree with you.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Fred wrote:

> On the subject of fitting the guard or not, I would heartily recommend
> that you do.

Thanks, but in fact I wouldn't have considered otherwise, even when I
thought there was no Allen key; I have plenty.

Though the situation is rather muddled by the manual showing a completely
different design of guard than the one actually supplied. Caused by it
covering several different machines of course, but a bit of clear labeling
and captioning would make all the difference.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Charles,

> It's there so that you can undo the securing nut without the spindle
> turning.

As I realised eventually, and as others have kindly explained. But it
should still be in the damn manual.

Bert

[Harry Bloomfield]

The Medway Handyman explained :
> On 28/04/2015 17:45, Bert Coules wrote:
>> Mike wrote:
>>
>>> ...the £20 125mm Lidl/Parkside one from a few weeks
>>> ago fits your original requirements too.
>>
>> Is it still available, though? I know that Lidl stuff comes and goes,
>> and there doesn't seem to be any way of checking availability, short of
>> going to a store.
>>
>> Bert
>>
> Most AG take 115mm discs. 125mm discs aren't as common.

125mm is much more useful I find and they last longer. They are not
quite so common, but they can be found.

[charles]

In article <7pKdnXjC3PzondzI...@brightview.co.uk>,

I don't think that mine ever had a manual.

[Bert Coules]

Charles,

> I don't think that mine ever had a manual.

It depends, I suppose, on just what sort sort of purchaser any particular
model is aimed at. The Bosch is labelled "Professional" but even
professionals have to be first-time buyers at some stage, or so you might
think.

Bert

[Adrian]

It's probably more akin to using the wheelbrace before jacking the car up.

[charles]

In article <UKednWhiqe2nm9zI...@brightview.co.uk>,

The first one I used was hired. I think I got a quick "how to use it"
chat from the chap beind the counter.

[Adrian]

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 17:41:32 +0100, charles wrote:

>> > I don't think that mine ever had a manual.

>> It depends, I suppose, on just what sort sort of purchaser any
>> particular model is aimed at. The Bosch is labelled "Professional" but
>> even professionals have to be first-time buyers at some stage, or so
>> you might think.

> The first one I used was hired. I think I got a quick "how to use it"
> chat from the chap beind the counter.

First one I used was at a mate's workshop, probably. I think I got
pointed vaguely in the right direction of where to find it.

[Adam Funk]

On 2015-04-28, Clive George wrote:

> On 28/04/2015 14:04, Adrian wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 13:55:05 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:
>>
>>> The several recommendations for the Bosch are making that the current
>>> front-runner.
>>
>> ...and the final clincher for me...?
>>
>> Bosch are that rare thing - an ethically-owned business. 92% owned by a
>> charity set up by the founder of the business, which uses the profits for
>> philanthropic, development, educational, healthcare charitable purposes.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_Stiftung
>>
>> (No, I don't work for Bosch. If I did work in their marketing dept, I'd
>> be shouting about that a lot more than they inexplicably don't seem to.)
>
> I wonder if it might be counterproductive in many of their markets.
>
> It is interesting to see how it has done so well - most of their profits
> go back into the company, which is rather the opposite of most
> companies. I wonder if there's a lesson there for anybody else?
>
> (wikipedia has 2004 numbers - $2.1b profit, $72m to the charity, $6m to
> the family, rest back into the company. Can you imagine any owner
> settling for that little over here?)

Wow, I had no idea about all that!

[GB]

I've never tried, but does spindle lock on and start the motor simply
burn out the motor?

Personally, I disconnect from mains before changing discs. Me = wimp,
but with both my hands and all my teeth intact.

[Simon Brown]

"Bert Coules" <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote in message
news:o9SdnRXSC49Vc93I...@brightview.co.uk...

> OK, a correction: there is an Allen key. I found it clipped to the mains
> lead and invisible in the coils.
>
> But I was right about the instructions: not one word about the controls,
> their locations and their function.
>
> The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock.
> Presumably it's the small circular button on the head of the machine. But
> I've no idea why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

Its there to lock the spindle so you can unscrew
the thing that allows you to change the disk.

> Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch in
> general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder
> unplugged) until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general
> use is it recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in its
> temporary position?

IMO its better to not lock the motor on in a situation where
you can drop it and have it keep going after being dropped.

But sometimes, particularly when using it to grind off stuff
from freshly welded metal, its more convenient to lock the
motor on because that allows you to move the whole thing
around better when you don't have to hold the switch in.

> Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

True. But there are plenty of youtube videos explaining that basic
stuff and that is arguably better than any printed manual can be.

[Adrian]

On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 20:54:08 +0100, GB wrote:

> I've never tried, but does spindle lock on and start the motor simply
> burn out the motor?

Stall it, yes. Injure you, probably.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 28 April 2015 17:39:36 UTC+1, mike wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 4:43:04 PM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 03:38:25 -0700 (PDT), nt wrote:
> >
> > > The one brand to totally avoid is power devil. A site boss bought
> > > several PD tools, all were dead 30 days later.
> >
> > Pretty sure it was Power Devil(*) orbital sander that exploded on me.
> > The dicast metal backing plate just disintegrated. Lumps taken out of
> > wall and I was finding bits of shrapnel all over the room for ages.
> >
> > (*) Pale grey red fittings, dark adjustable front handle.
>
> Those are the colours of Performance Power Pro (the brand that Scott M reports he's had for nearly 20 years and is still going strong). Power Devil were red, and ceased to exist as a brand many years ago, so the likelihood of Bert buying one is fairly remote.
>
> Power Devil in the UK and Ferm (who are still going in the Netherlands) used to buy the same Chinese OEM models but obviously in their own colours. The

I'd be curious to see the evidence for that. Feedback I've heard is very different.


NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 29 April 2015 15:46:34 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:

> The Screwfix website tells me that the Bosch has a spindle lock. Presumably
> it's the small circular button on the head of the machine. But I've no idea
> why it's there and why and when I should apply it.

Yup. When you change discs. You'll soon know when you go to do it.

> Similarly, the advertised lock-on switch, and in fact the power switch in
> general. I know where it is and I experimented (with the grinder unplugged)
> until I finally managed to lock it in place - but in general use is it
> recommended to lock the motor on or just hold the switch in its temporary
> position?

Your choice.

> Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.

They're self explaining when you use the tool for real.


NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 29 April 2015 16:32:13 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Apr 2015 16:15:35 +0100, Bert Coules wrote:
>
> >> They're absolutely common to all angle grinders.
> >> Have you ever used one before?
>
> > No I haven't
>
> OK... Angle grinder basics...
>
> WEAR GOGGLES. ALWAYS. I MEAN... ALWAYS.

bad advice. Wear indirect vent goggles always. Don't and you're likely to end up in hospital needing something removed from your eye

> They can bite. They can really bite.

11000rpm, coarse grit disc, even faster motor, and a tendency to dig in hard. Very useful, but one of the more injurious diy tools.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Angle_grinder


NT

[Bert Coules]

>> WEAR GOGGLES. ALWAYS. I MEAN... ALWAYS.
>

> Bad advice.

Excellent advice, merely not as specific as your version.

[Bert Coules]

Simon, thanks for all that. Good sense.

> True. But there are plenty of youtube videos explaining that basic
> stuff and that is arguably better than any printed manual can be.

I agree that a visual demonstration can be better than a written one,
especially when so many many are so abysmally written, but surely a
manufacturer shouldn't *rely* on external instructions which a purchaser
might or might not look at (assuming that said purchaser has internet access
at all).

[Bert Coules]

NT wrote:

>> Not to explain these fundamentals seems to me to be astonishing.
>
> They're self explaining when you use the tool for real.

To you, perhaps, to me, possibly, to many, with luck. But to all? I don't
think so.

[Simon Brown]

"Bert Coules" <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote in message

news:lOmdnbp_7pmLZdzI...@brightview.co.uk...

Yes, they should have instructions that make it clear what can injure you
and the best of them would provide their own well done videos too.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

excellent advice if you want eye injury. Its one of those habitual errors people make, ask any A&E dept.


NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

Well, if someone doesn't figure it out I'm not sure they should be using an angle grinder. When to use the on-lock is a matter of judgement, and obviously using it increases risk. Any advice to use it in a manual could thus leave them open to being sued.


NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

Indeed. But its more expense, and a better idiot will find a way to do as they suggest and still get injured. Maybe they could fund a tool safety organisation or something. Doubtless the govt will ram that scam on us next, and we'll have to pay twice the price for every new AG and be forced to watch some dopey sod stating the obvious for 2 hours before being allowed to take the new purchase home.


NT

[Simon Brown]

<tabb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2b45c41-9059-493c...@googlegroups.com...

> On Thursday, 30 April 2015 11:34:26 UTC+1, Simon Brown wrote:
>> "Bert Coules" <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:lOmdnbp_7pmLZdzI...@brightview.co.uk...
>> > Simon, thanks for all that. Good sense.
>> >
>> >> True. But there are plenty of youtube videos explaining that basic
>> >> stuff and that is arguably better than any printed manual can be.
>> >
>> > I agree that a visual demonstration can be better than a written one,
>> > especially when so many many are so abysmally written, but surely a
>> > manufacturer shouldn't *rely* on external instructions which a
>> > purchaser
>> > might or might not look at (assuming that said purchaser has internet
>> > access at all).
>>
>> Yes, they should have instructions that make it clear what can injure you
>> and the best of them would provide their own well done videos too.

> Indeed. But its more expense,

Sure, but not much given that its spread over all of those they sell.

> and a better idiot will find a way to do as they suggest and still get
> injured.

Sure, but there isn't much can be done about those.

> Maybe they could fund a tool safety organisation or something.

I think youtube leaves that approach for dead.

> Doubtless the govt will ram that scam on us next, and we'll
> have to pay twice the price for every new AG and be forced

> to watch ome dopey sod stating the obvious for 2 hours

> before being allowed to take the new purchase home.

I doubt it. They don't even do that with cars.

[mike]

Power Devil router:
http://s8.postimg.org/p1xqpn6id/image.jpg
Ferm router:
http://s8.postimg.org/q2xzernhx/image.jpg

IIRC, that model was made by Ningbo and a quick Google will provide many good reviews of the PD version which is basically a decent quality knock-off of the classic Elu:

http://allenina-powertools.en.made-in-china.com/product-list-1.html

If you look at their website you can spot several current models rebadged as Titan, Parkside, PowerCraft etc.


This Ferm recip saw is identical to the PD one I binned (except for the colour). Can't find an online photo of the PD:

http://s8.postimg.org/y763ji9x1/image.jpg


So, if you're comparing like with like, the colour really shouldn't make a difference. As I said the PD router was very good and the recip saw was very bad so I'd expect the Ferm to be the same.

[Bert Coules]

Simon Brown wrote:

> I think Youtube leaves that approach for dead.

So far, most of the YouTube videos I've watched have shown one-handed
operation, often with no guard. One particularly choice one has the
operator holding down the workpiece with his spare hand, right in the path
of the cutter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0CSpmPlH4

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 30 April 2015 14:09:14 UTC+1, mike wrote:
> On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:31:14 AM UTC+1, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 28 April 2015 17:39:36 UTC+1, mike wrote:
>
> > > Power Devil in the UK and Ferm (who are still going in the Netherlands) used to buy the same Chinese OEM models but obviously in their own colours. The
> >
> > I'd be curious to see the evidence for that. Feedback I've heard is very different.
>
>
> Power Devil router:
> http://s8.postimg.org/p1xqpn6id/image.jpg
> Ferm router:
> http://s8.postimg.org/q2xzernhx/image.jpg
>
> IIRC, that model was made by Ningbo and a quick Google will provide many good reviews of the PD version which is basically a decent quality knock-off of the classic Elu:
>
> http://allenina-powertools.en.made-in-china.com/product-list-1.html
>
> If you look at their website you can spot several current models rebadged as Titan, Parkside, PowerCraft etc.

I thought you were going to say that.

PD & Ferm are/were large buyers.
Sosoco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need you to use this grade magnet wire, that superior switch and reinforce the gears.
Crapco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need lower cost, what can you do?
Mfrco: well, if we replace the nylon gears with ABS, use lower temp rated wire insulation, replace the plastic insulators with punched card and replace the motor with our special 5 hour life one we can do it at this price for you.

Whether the above is the reality or they're all the same we don't at this point know for sure. I've heard awful things about PD and not Ferm, but of course the sample size is too small to have any certainty.


NT

[mike]

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 6:47:05 PM UTC+1, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

> I thought you were going to say that.
>
> PD & Ferm are/were large buyers.
> Sosoco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need you to use this grade magnet wire, that superior switch and reinforce the gears.
> Crapco: Hi, we'd like to buy 50,000 of your grommulators. But we need lower cost, what can you do?
> Mfrco: well, if we replace the nylon gears with ABS, use lower temp rated wire insulation, replace the plastic insulators with punched card and replace the motor with our special 5 hour life one we can do it at this price for you.
>
> Whether the above is the reality or they're all the same we don't at this point know for sure. I've heard awful things about PD and not Ferm, but of course the sample size is too small to have any certainty.

I agree it's not conclusive that the innards are identical and you're obviously going to require a higher standard of proof than I can provide. That being the case, why are you prepared to put so much store by something you heard down the pub?

[Simon Brown]

"Bert Coules" <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote in message

news:F72dnWvRB99R19_I...@brightview.co.uk...

> Simon Brown wrote:
>
>> I think Youtube leaves that approach for dead.
>
> So far, most of the YouTube videos I've watched have shown one-handed
> operation,

I do that myself with the 4" angle grinders.
Not with the full sized ones tho.

> often with no guard.

I don't ever do that, even tho I have never had a disc or wheel come apart.

> One particularly choice one has the operator holding down the workpiece
> with his spare hand, right in the path of the cutter:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0CSpmPlH4

Sure, that is certainly the main downside of youtube, plenty
who don't have a clue about how to use them safely. But the
best of them warn you about the problems much better than
any printed instructions can do.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

its certainly not a story I heard down the pub.


NT

[Bert Coules]

Simon Brown wrote:

>> often with no guard.
>

> I don't ever do that...

Having now actually used my new first-time angle grinder, I can understand I
think why some people do remove the guard: to get a decent view of the blade
and where I was cutting I found that I had to peer over the top of it -
which rather defeats much of the point of having it there, doesn't it?

In general though I found the tool easier to use and rather less daunting
than I was expecting from all the horror stories.

Thanks to everyone here for all the thoughts and advice.

Bert

[stuart noble]

A thumbs up for my PD circ saw. Bought as a temporary measure when my
Elu got pinched, it's still there a couple of decades on. Blade not
precisely 90 degs to the baseplate but that was easily corrected

[Simon Brown]

"Bert Coules" <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote in message

news:voudnQJ9erpY3t7I...@brightview.co.uk...

> Simon Brown wrote:
>
>>> often with no guard.
>>
>> I don't ever do that...

> Having now actually used my new first-time angle grinder, I can understand
> I think why some people do remove the guard: to get a decent view of the
> blade

I don't need a decent view of the blade, I look at what its
doing to what I am using the angle grinder to do instead.

> and where I was cutting I found that I had to peer over the top of it -
> which rather defeats much of the point of having it there, doesn't it?

No, because it does prevent most of the bits
hitting the user if the disk does come apart.

> In general though I found the tool easier to use and rather less daunting
> than I was expecting from all the horror stories.

Yeah, I have never had a disc come apart and have never had
it jam in the work either. But then I don't use it to cut steel,
I use a disc in an electric saw that is mounted in my own
system to cut steel and use the angle grinder to on the
excess welds and rough edges that the saw produce.

> Thanks to everyone here for all the thoughts and advice.

Thanks for the ongoing feedback from a new user.

[charles]

In article <voudnQJ9erpY3t7I...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert Coules

<ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote:
> Simon Brown wrote:

> >> often with no guard.
> >
> > I don't ever do that...

> Having now actually used my new first-time angle grinder, I can
> understand I think why some people do remove the guard: to get a decent
> view of the blade and where I was cutting I found that I had to peer
> over the top of it - which rather defeats much of the point of having it
> there, doesn't it?

It you are peering over the top of an unguarded disc and it hits a snag you
will get the disc in your face - still it's your life. If you are cutting
metal the bits of hot metal being ground off can be hot

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18