CM67 Optimum Start algorithm
Set Square
Programmable Room Stat in my hallway. I bought the version with Optimum
Start capability - which purports to decide for itself when to switch on the
heating in order to achieve the target temperature by the programmed start
time.
This seems to be working, but I'm curious to know what algorithm it uses in
order to decide when to turn on the heating. The literature doesn't make
this clear, so I wonder whether any of you actually know?
Several possibilities present themselves to me:
* it could assume a fixed (factory set) rate of rise of temperature, and
apply this to the current temperature in order to work out long long it will
take to get to the target temperature
* it could depend on one of the parameters - such as Proportional Band
Width - which can be set in the Installer Set-up Mode
* if it's *really* clever, it could calibrate itself by observing the actual
rate of temperature rise when the heating is on, and then apply this to its
future predictions
Does anyone out there know what it actually does?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!
Andy Hall
wrote:
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/files/pag113.pdf
If you look at Adaptive Intelligent Recovery, it is basically doing
what you describe in your third point - i.e. if you turn that feature
on, the controller measures the rate of rise of temperature and uses
it to calculate the next heating period's start time also accounting
for the starting temperature. This is a relatively simple
controller, so it appears that it only does this session by session.
A really intelligent controller would store the temperature points by
time over more days because the rate of change of temperature is not
absolutely linear, although it is to a first approximation. Hence
the method used is a lot better than doing nothing at all.
All of that has to do with optimised starting.
The proportional band has to do with the behaviour of the controller
(it is a proportional plus integral controller)
Proportional control is that the heat contribution over a period of
time is adjusted to match the heat loss and maintain the temperature
accurately. There are controllers that will do this in a genuinely
analogue way by modulating the boiler output to match the requirement.
However, many boilers can only be controlled in an on/off fashion aand
indeed this is also true of most zone valves if you were using that as
a means of control. In order to control this type of device, the
controller does so by using time proportions. A simple example
might be that if you want 50% of the average output, the boiler is
turned on for 5 minutes and off for 5 minutes. For 80%, it would be
on for 8 and off for 2.
The CM67 does this but allows some additional settings.
- There is an cycle rate setting of 3,6,9,12 cycles per hour. If the
entity being controlled can react quickly without any disadvantages
(e.g. if you were controlling electric heating), then you could set 12
cycles per hour. At the other extreme, devices that show
inefficiency or might have other problems if cycled too frequently
would be run at three cycles per hour. In between you have typical
gas heating, which is run at 6 cycles/hour i.e. cycles last ten
minutes. So the behaviour would be as in my example above.
Note that the minimum on time is set to 1 minute, which in effect will
be 10%.
- Proportional bandwidth is the temperature range about the set point
where proportional control operates. Within this range, the
controller operates in this cycling mode. Below it, the output will
always be on and above it will always be off.
Adjustment for this will depend on the heating system and thermal
inertia of the house. Ideally what you want to have happen, is that
when starting from cold, if the current temperature is below the
proportional lower limit, then the optimisation should time operation
to fire the boiler at 100%. However, as the temperature rises into
the proportional band, the cycling control should begin to take
effect. If possible, you want to avoid the temperature overshooting
above the proportional band because a) you use more energy than needed
and b) the temperature may tend to oscillate for a long time before
settling. This is most likely to happen in well insulated properties
with oversized heating. It is really a trade off between achieving
the set point quickly and not overshooting.
On this controller, you can vary the proportional bandwidth to help
with that, in that it will enter cycling operation earlier on the rise
and begin backing off the average heat output of the system.
The proportional bandwidth may be taken into account in the optimised
start. That's not clear.
The best thing to do is to check the temperature rise behaviour by
recording temperature readings (say) every ten minutes during start up
for a few days. Plot a graph if you like.
You can then experiment with proportional bandwidth if needed.
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Harry Bloomfield
> This seems to be working, but I'm curious to know what algorithm it uses in
> order to decide when to turn on the heating. The literature doesn't make
> this clear, so I wonder whether any of you actually know?
20 years ago I designed one of these controllers and the next stage in
its development was to include the facility which you mention. The
whole idea was well ahead of the market at that time, so I was
struggling on new ground.
I got as far as working out a rough algorithm. It went something
like...
Starting with a basic programmed in setting, then incrementing or
decrementing preheat time value, based on whether it attained the
temperature before or after the set time. Which equates roughly with
your last suggested method.
It was all very experimental. There was a theory going around, that in
order to achieve this function, that an outside temperature sensor
would be needed to enable the calculation to be done satisfactorily. I
wonder if your unit includes an outdoor temperature sensor?
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT)...
Remove the 'NOSPAM' in my email address to reply.
Free Amateur Radio Courses:-
http://www.ukradioamateur.org
Andy Hall
<harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>Set Square wrote on 08/02/2004 :-
>> This seems to be working, but I'm curious to know what algorithm it uses in
>> order to decide when to turn on the heating. The literature doesn't make
>> this clear, so I wonder whether any of you actually know?
>
>20 years ago I designed one of these controllers and the next stage in
>its development was to include the facility which you mention. The
>whole idea was well ahead of the market at that time, so I was
>struggling on new ground.
>
>I got as far as working out a rough algorithm. It went something
>like...
>
>Starting with a basic programmed in setting, then incrementing or
>decrementing preheat time value, based on whether it attained the
>temperature before or after the set time. Which equates roughly with
>your last suggested method.
>
>It was all very experimental. There was a theory going around, that in
>order to achieve this function, that an outside temperature sensor
>would be needed to enable the calculation to be done satisfactorily. I
>wonder if your unit includes an outdoor temperature sensor?
I've done some work on this as well. Working purely on an internal
reading and time, you can make a first approximation assumption that
heat loss and thermal inertia effects are linear with time. That is
roughly true and better than doing nothing. It becomes better if the
controller can gather data and average over several heating sessions.
The CM67 type of controller doesn't use outside temperature sensing
but some of the sophisticated boiler controllers have outside sensors.
On mine, there is an outside sensor which goes on a north facing wall
out of the sun and gives the boiler a temperature signal based on
resistance. There is an inside controller which senses temperature
and hooks up to the boiler with a pulse width modulated digital code,
in effect providing an analogue temperature value.
It is possible to set the proportional bandwidth and the relative
sensitivities to each of these terms, with data being accumulated over
several days. The boiler output is then linearly modulated from 3kW
to full power by controlling the fan speed (influences gas input rate)
and pump power level. The slope and end points of the boiler
temperature vs the environment temperatures can be varied as well.
The controller behaviour can be logged to a PC so I can look at the
temperatures and power levels over a period of time.
I've tried running with the outside sensing turned off and it does
make some difference, although principally when there are fast moving
changes in outside temperature.
IMM
"Harry Bloomfield" <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mesnews.43267d42...@tiscali.co.uk...
> Set Square wrote on 08/02/2004 :-
> > This seems to be working, but I'm curious to know what algorithm it uses
in
> > order to decide when to turn on the heating. The literature doesn't make
> > this clear, so I wonder whether any of you actually know?
>
> 20 years ago I designed one of these controllers and the next stage in
> its development was to include the facility which you mention. The
> whole idea was well ahead of the market at that time, so I was
> struggling on new ground.
Self adaptive optimum start, and optimum stop, controllers have been around
on the commercial field for over 20 years. Microprocessor based too.
> I got as far as working out a rough algorithm. It went something
> like...
>
> Starting with a basic programmed in setting, then incrementing or
> decrementing preheat time value, based on whether it attained the
> temperature before or after the set time. Which equates roughly with
> your last suggested method.
>
> It was all very experimental. There was a theory going around, that in
> order to achieve this function, that an outside temperature sensor
> would be needed to enable the calculation to be done satisfactorily. I
> wonder if your unit includes an outdoor temperature sensor?
It is far better with an outside temperature sensor, But using just one
inside temp sensor, a decent optimised start performance can be achieved.
The DCD controller has a number of user set time zones during the day. Each
one is optimised on and off (I believe). The CM67 is only optimised on, in
the morning period, so I believe. Subsequently the DCD controller saves a
lot on energy.
Set Square
Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> wrote:
Many thanks for your very full asnwer, Andy - and for the links. My CM67 is
the hard-wired rather than RF model, and the leaflet which came with it is
slightly different. The "Adaptive Intelligent Recovery" section in the RF
model leaflet does say fairly explicitly that it uses the start-up
performance this time around to decide what to do next time. My leaflet is a
lot less explicit. Its equivalent paragraph is entitled "Optimisation
(Variable Start Time)" and says:
"The Programmable Thermostat will delay the start time to the last possible
moment, so that the desired temperature is reached by the start of the
program (sic) period. Simply set the times at which you would like to be
warm and the Programmable Thermostat will switch on when required up to a
maximum of 3 hours early."
I assume that the hard-wired version works in the same way as the RF version
in this respect, but it seems strange that they use different words to
describe it.
As you say, it appears that it bases its temperature rise rate value on what
happened at the most recent startup period - rather than averaging it over a
number of periods.
Thankyou for explaining cycles per hour too. Presumably with the default 10
minute cycle (6 per hour) once it has done its thing within the current
cycle, it won't turn the boiler on again until the start of the next 10
minute cycle even if the house has cooled rapidly in the meantime because
(say) some fool has opened all the doors and windows? Presumably also, the
minimum ON time only applies once it has decided to turn the boiler on. That
is, it never runs the boiler for less than a minute. However, it may - and
often does - decide not to run it at all within a particular cycle - e.g.
when the actual temp is way above the target temp, as in over-night
conditions.
Set Square
>
> The CM67 is only
> optimised on, in the morning period, so I believe.
This does not stack up with my experience! My CM67 is programmed to provide
a lunchtime boost of 21 degC from 12:30 to 13:30 having been set back to 18
degC for the morning period. The boiler usually fires up just before 12 in
order to achieve the target temperature by 12:30. If you monitor the target
temperature on the stat, it changes this from 18 to 21 at the point when it
decides to fire up, rather than at the programmed time.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>
>
>Many thanks for your very full asnwer, Andy - and for the links. My CM67 is
>the hard-wired rather than RF model, and the leaflet which came with it is
>slightly different.
I think that if you poke around on the sites a little, you will find
the CM61 or CM67. There are possibly a few differences in the RF
version to save battery power, but functionally from when I looked
them they are basically the same as the wired one.
>The "Adaptive Intelligent Recovery" section in the RF
>model leaflet does say fairly explicitly that it uses the start-up
>performance this time around to decide what to do next time. My leaflet is a
>lot less explicit. Its equivalent paragraph is entitled "Optimisation
>(Variable Start Time)" and says:
>"The Programmable Thermostat will delay the start time to the last possible
>moment, so that the desired temperature is reached by the start of the
>program (sic) period. Simply set the times at which you would like to be
>warm and the Programmable Thermostat will switch on when required up to a
>maximum of 3 hours early."
>
It is a bit vague isn't it. Probably written by a technical author
who didn't understand the product.
>I assume that the hard-wired version works in the same way as the RF version
>in this respect, but it seems strange that they use different words to
>describe it.
>
>As you say, it appears that it bases its temperature rise rate value on what
>happened at the most recent startup period - rather than averaging it over a
>number of periods.
>
>Thankyou for explaining cycles per hour too. Presumably with the default 10
>minute cycle (6 per hour) once it has done its thing within the current
>cycle, it won't turn the boiler on again until the start of the next 10
>minute cycle even if the house has cooled rapidly in the meantime because
>(say) some fool has opened all the doors and windows?
That would be true unless the temperature has fallen so rapidly that
you reach the edge of the proportional band. At that point, the
controller will go to 100% on. Obviously this is another factor that
you could trade in deciding on the bandwidth setting. If the sudden
loss of heat situation happens a lot, then setting the bandwidth
narrower might be in order.
>Presumably also, the
>minimum ON time only applies once it has decided to turn the boiler on. That
>is, it never runs the boiler for less than a minute.
If you set it to the 10 minute cycle, yes. Depending on the nature
of the house and system, setting a longer cycle might be worth doing -
e.g. if it's an older (say cast iron) boiler and not overpowered for
the house.
>However, it may - and
>often does - decide not to run it at all within a particular cycle - e.g.
>when the actual temp is way above the target temp, as in over-night
>conditions.
Correct. But that is where you have gone outside the proportional
band anyway. On the way down, as you come into the band, the boiler
would begin firing as soon as 10% heat or more is demanded.
Another factor that I should have mentioned is the boiler thermostat.
If the boiler is oversized or the heat is not being disposed of
quickly enough, that will come into play and have an impact on the
system. You would notice this if the boiler has a tendency to short
cycle without the controller in operation. Ideally, when starting
from cold, the boiler thermostat shouldn't come into play until you
are getting towards the set point if at all.
JH
"Set Square" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:c05kos$136i6v$1...@ID-217758.news.uni-berlin.de...
> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> IMM <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > The CM67 is only
> > optimised on, in the morning period, so I believe.
>
> This does not stack up with my experience! My CM67 is programmed to
provide
> a lunchtime boost of 21 degC from 12:30 to 13:30 having been set back to
18
> degC for the morning period. The boiler usually fires up just before 12 in
> order to achieve the target temperature by 12:30. If you monitor the
target
> temperature on the stat, it changes this from 18 to 21 at the point when
it
> decides to fire up, rather than at the programmed time.
As some will remember, with the groups useful advice I fitted a CM67RF to
my existing system a few weeks back. It's transformed the level of control
and refinement compared to before (a TRV only system) but if like me you are
new to these types of stat it does take a bit of mind set change to get the
best out of programming the device e.g. one error I made was to set the
target temp time too early because I was thinking along the lines of giving
the house a chance to warm up before getting up. The CM67 started the system
up in the middle of the night. A bit of tweaking sorted that.out.
I've not changed the factory settings but like most tuning (bikes, cars, IT
systems etc.) I'm going along the path of changing one user setting at a
time and checking the results over the next or so. I may move on the factory
settings but I doubt it.
Jules
Mike Hibbert
news:NwvVb.1659$vo1...@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
And I fitted one just after Jules (after tapping you lot up for info). It
has totally transformed our house. It feels comfortable ALL the time now!
Set Square
Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:22:09 -0000, "Set Square" <m...@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Thankyou for explaining cycles per hour too. Presumably with the
>> default 10 minute cycle (6 per hour) once it has done its thing
>> within the current cycle, it won't turn the boiler on again until
>> the start of the next 10 minute cycle even if the house has cooled
>> rapidly in the meantime because (say) some fool has opened all the
>> doors and windows?
>
> That would be true unless the temperature has fallen so rapidly that
> you reach the edge of the proportional band. At that point, the
> controller will go to 100% on. Obviously this is another factor that
> you could trade in deciding on the bandwidth setting. If the sudden
> loss of heat situation happens a lot, then setting the bandwidth
> narrower might be in order.
>
Ah, now I understand the proportional band width a bit better - I had
previously assumed that it had something to do with the gain - but it is
actually the temperature band within which the controller exercises what
might be called "time division proportionality". Outside that band it is
either fully on or fully off (if I'm right). I presume that there isn't any
user control over the gain applied to either the proportional or integral
feedback? [I must admit that, having only worked in the past on analog
controllers for mechanical systems, I'm not too clear on how the principles
apply to something which has only an on/off output].
>
>> Presumably also, the
>> minimum ON time only applies once it has decided to turn the boiler
>> on. That is, it never runs the boiler for less than a minute.
>
> If you set it to the 10 minute cycle, yes. Depending on the nature
> of the house and system, setting a longer cycle might be worth doing -
> e.g. if it's an older (say cast iron) boiler and not overpowered for
> the house.
>
My house *is* well insulated, and the boiler is at least adequate. It is a
10-year-old Baxi Solo 70/4 PF - which *does* have a cast iron heat
exchanger, albeit of fairly low water holding capacity such that pump
over-run is required. Could you please explain in slightly more detail what
the likely effect would be of setting the cycles per hour to (say) 3 rather
than 6. Should I also increase the minimum ON time to more than one minute?
[For example, for oil boilers the leaflet says to set to 3 cycles/hr and 4
minutes min ON time].
>
> Another factor that I should have mentioned is the boiler thermostat.
> If the boiler is oversized or the heat is not being disposed of
> quickly enough, that will come into play and have an impact on the
> system. You would notice this if the boiler has a tendency to short
> cycle without the controller in operation. Ideally, when starting
> from cold, the boiler thermostat shouldn't come into play until you
> are getting towards the set point if at all.
>
The boiler is on permanently when the system starts up from cold. When it
gets hot, but the room stat set point is not yet reached, the boiler *does*
cycle on its own stat - but I've always regarded this as normal. Do you
regard it as a problem?
One more point, while I think about it. One of the features on the CM67 is
something called "pump exercise" which purports to run the pump for 15
seconds each day. This is presumably to stop it seizing up if not used
during the summer. I can't quite figure out how this is supposed to work
since, on most systems the boiler and pump are either connected in parallel,
or the pump is controlled by the boiler to provide over-run. Either way, you
can't have the pump on without the boiler also being on - unless, I suppose,
you turn the boiler stat down to zero. Is this what you're supposed to do?
[This is of purely academic interest in my case because the boiler and pump
run all year for DHW anyway].
Thanks for sharing your expertise - it is very educational!
Frank McGuire
how it is operating
so the information in this thread has been useful to me.
The boiler I have is a Vaillant Turbomax Plus.
Once the house is up to the set temperature everything is fine, but it does
seem to take a long
time to get there even in 'mild' weather, set to 19.5 Degrees C
The boiler has a temperature control on it - should I set this to max and
let the CM67 take over?
Does anyone know which has priority - the boiler's thermostat or the
external (CM67)
"Set Square" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:c062sr$13ethh$1...@ID-217758.news.uni-berlin.de...
Andy Hall
wrote:
>In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:22:09 -0000, "Set Square" <m...@privacy.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Thankyou for explaining cycles per hour too. Presumably with the
>>> default 10 minute cycle (6 per hour) once it has done its thing
>>> within the current cycle, it won't turn the boiler on again until
>>> the start of the next 10 minute cycle even if the house has cooled
>>> rapidly in the meantime because (say) some fool has opened all the
>>> doors and windows?
>>
>> That would be true unless the temperature has fallen so rapidly that
>> you reach the edge of the proportional band. At that point, the
>> controller will go to 100% on. Obviously this is another factor that
>> you could trade in deciding on the bandwidth setting. If the sudden
>> loss of heat situation happens a lot, then setting the bandwidth
>> narrower might be in order.
>>
>Ah, now I understand the proportional band width a bit better - I had
>previously assumed that it had something to do with the gain - but it is
>actually the temperature band within which the controller exercises what
>might be called "time division proportionality".
Bandwidth is a bad word to use but is the usual one. Normally it's
used in connection with radio and network engineering to mean
something completely different. The way you've described it for
this application is exactly right, though.
> Outside that band it is
>either fully on or fully off (if I'm right).
Yes. Also within the band, don't forget that there is the minimum
on-time which has an influence.
> I presume that there isn't any
>user control over the gain applied to either the proportional or integral
>feedback?
Not directly. There will be several factors, including the house
behaviour which will affect behaviour.
> [I must admit that, having only worked in the past on analog
>controllers for mechanical systems, I'm not too clear on how the principles
>apply to something which has only an on/off output].
>
If you want to think of it electronically, in the proportional range
it is roughly equivalent to a switch applying charge or discharging a
capacitor and being switched each way to set a fixed voltage. If you
were to take the voltage on the capacitor and filter it to remove the
short term variation, you will end up with more or less DC voltage
which increases and decreases according to required heat.
This is really all that is happening. The house has a much longer
time constant than the cycle rate of the controller and so there is a
smoothing effect.
The proportional switching is only there because most boilers don't
have an analogue input to control the power level.
This is a very common method of industrial temperature control where
the process and the heater have a long time constant.
To give you another example, I keep snakes in a large vivarium. The
particular species requires a relatively narrow temperature range and
high humidity. They also require a temperature gradient of a few
degrees along the length of the enclosure so that they can choose the
temperature that they would like.
For the heating, I have a special kind of ceramic heater surrounded
by a guard in the enclosure at one end, and a temperature sensor
(platinum resistance probe) in the centre. There is an industrial
temperature controller which drives the heater in proportional mode
through a solid state relay. The cycle time is ten seconds which is
fine for this arrangement.
The controller is really intended to acquire and maintain the setpoint
as quickly as possible and has autolearning modes to do this. Most of
the time, the temperature is held at 29.5 degrees. However, there is
a second control system for the humidity. This consists of a
humidity probe and controller for that, the output of which is used to
drive a pump. The pump delivers water from a reservoir to fine mist
sprayers in the enclosure, wetting the bark chips on the floor. The
humidity rises and the controller cuts off. Precise control is not
so critical so this controller is a simple on/off with a hysteresis of
5% of humidity.
However, one effect of the humidifier part running is to drop the
temperature. As the water evaporates, it requires its latent heat to
do so and there is a cooling effect. The thermal control adjusts and
brings the temperature back within a minute or so without
overshooting.
The snakes seem happy with the arrangement, which reminds me, I must
go and feed them.
.andy
Andy Hall
<fmag...@indigo.ie> wrote:
>I've just installed a Honeywell CM67(RF) and I've been trying to figure out
>how it is operating
>so the information in this thread has been useful to me.
>The boiler I have is a Vaillant Turbomax Plus.
>Once the house is up to the set temperature everything is fine, but it does
>seem to take a long
>time to get there even in 'mild' weather, set to 19.5 Degrees C
>
>The boiler has a temperature control on it - should I set this to max and
>let the CM67 take over?
Yes you should. Keep an eye open for short cycling when the
controller is in the permanently on range. This would mean that you
are not getting heat away from the boiler fast enough, often because
pump setting is too low or radiators turned down too far.
>
>Does anyone know which has priority - the boiler's thermostat or the
>external (CM67)
The CM67 will give the boiler a demand for heat. The boiler will do
that until that goes away or the water temperature reaches the level
set by the boiler thermostat.
What you want to try to avoid is that the CM67 is creating a demand
for heat and the boiler is turning on and off on its own thermostat.
The system will still work, but you may get some inconsistent effects
with the controller depending on the heat actually required due to the
outside temperature. Ideally, you want if possible for the CM67 to
do the main control.
.andy
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:876d2017ilaosvtrj...@4ax.com...
> I keep snakes in a large vivarium.
My, oh my! It gets worse.
Andy Hall
Would you like to join them? I mentioned that they were due for
feeding. They are very affectionate and would be pleased to give
you a big hug.....
Michael Chare
news:81wVb.9947$fl7.90...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > As some will remember, with the groups useful advice I fitted a CM67RF to
> > my existing system a few weeks back. It's transformed the level of control
> > and refinement compared to before (a TRV only system) but if like me you
> are
> > new to these types of stat it does take a bit of mind set change to get
> the
> > best out of programming the device e.g. one error I made was to set the
> > target temp time too early because I was thinking along the lines of
> giving
> > the house a chance to warm up before getting up. The CM67 started the
> system
> > up in the middle of the night. A bit of tweaking sorted that.out.
> >
> > I've not changed the factory settings but like most tuning (bikes, cars,
> IT
> > systems etc.) I'm going along the path of changing one user setting at a
> > time and checking the results over the next or so. I may move on the
> factory
> > settings but I doubt it.
> >
> > Jules
>
> And I fitted one just after Jules (after tapping you lot up for info). It
> has totally transformed our house. It feels comfortable ALL the time now!
Are these things ever advertised? I only learnt about the existance of
programmer/thermostats where you can vary the temperature during the day from
earlier posts in this ng. I have always wanted such a device so when I learnt
that they existed I ordered one from plumbworld.
Installing and using the device has made me realise how slowly my house responds
to temperature changes. Maybe 1C /hour either up or down.
Michael Chare
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 21:31:17 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >news:876d2017ilaosvtrj...@4ax.com...
> >
> >> I keep snakes in a large vivarium.
> >
> >My, oh my! It gets worse.
> >
> Would you like to join them? I mentioned that they were due for
> feeding. They are very affectionate and would be pleased to give
> you a big hug.....
What a weirdo!
Michael Chare
> > On mine, there is an outside sensor which goes on a north facing wall
> out of the sun and gives the boiler a temperature signal based on
> resistance. There is an inside controller which senses temperature
> and hooks up to the boiler with a pulse width modulated digital code,
> in effect providing an analogue temperature value.
>
> It is possible to set the proportional bandwidth and the relative
> sensitivities to each of these terms, with data being accumulated over
> several days. The boiler output is then linearly modulated from 3kW
> to full power by controlling the fan speed (influences gas input rate)
> and pump power level. The slope and end points of the boiler
> temperature vs the environment temperatures can be varied as well.
>
> The controller behaviour can be logged to a PC so I can look at the
> temperatures and power levels over a period of time.
Is this a system sold with the boiler or something bought or developed
separately?
Just curious!
Michael Chare
Andy Hall
Integrated in as part of it.
http://www.man-heiztechnik.de/_html_e/produkte/micromat.php
>Just curious!
>
>
>Michael Chare
JH
"Mike Hibbert" <mike.h...@nospam.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:81wVb.9947$fl7.90...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> has totally transformed our house. It feels comfortable ALL the time now!
>
Likewise. Plus work commitments means the house is empty for a few days
during the week ATM. Previously I'd frig around with the old timer to get
the house warm on my return but it didn't really do the job i.e. the air was
warm but the house still felt cold, much better now even without fine tuning
the programs or factory settings. I'll be interested to see in the gas bill
next time mind.
Thanks again to old CH hands in this group. Why on earth installers put the
Mickey Mouse stats or in my case none at all can only be put down to cost,
but for the sake of less than 90 quid it's false economy in my book.
Jules
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:32:48 -0000, "Set Square" <m...@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> >Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:22:09 -0000, "Set Square" <m...@privacy.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thankyou for explaining cycles per hour too. Presumably with the
> >>> default 10 minute cycle (6 per hour) once it has done its thing
> >>> within the current cycle, it won't turn the boiler on again until
> >>> the start of the next 10 minute cycle even if the house has cooled
> >>> rapidly in the meantime because (say) some fool has opened all the
> >>> doors and windows?
> >>
> >> That would be true unless the temperature has fallen so rapidly that
> >> you reach the edge of the proportional band. At that point, the
> >> controller will go to 100% on. Obviously this is another factor that
> >> you could trade in deciding on the bandwidth setting. If the sudden
> >> loss of heat situation happens a lot, then setting the bandwidth
> >> narrower might be in order.
> >>
> >Ah, now I understand the proportional band width a bit better - I had
> >previously assumed that it had something to do with the gain - but it is
> >actually the temperature band within which the controller exercises what
> >might be called "time division proportionality".
Proportional control has no time division. That would be PI control, which
the CM67 has. Most commercial controllers now tend to have PID control.
Full explanation.
>>>>>
PROPORTIONAL
Proportional control is a corrective action that is proportional to the
error. Remember that error is defined as the difference between the desired
value (setpoint) and the actual measured value (process variable).
Proportional control is referred to as either "gain" or "proportional band".
Proportional band is the percent of change in the controlled variable that
causes the controller output to move over 100% of its range. In other words,
a proportional band of 100% means that if the measured variable moves over
100% of its range, the controller output signal will move over 100% of its
range; or, if the measured variable moves 1% of its full range, then the
control output moves 1%. In general, as the proportional band percentage
gets smaller, the controller becomes more sensitive. It is possible to make
it so sensitive that a very small change in the process variable measurement
will result in very large controller output. For those who like to work in
gain instead of proportional band, the relationship between these terms is
simple: gain is the reciprocal of proportional band. If the proportional
band is 100%, then gain is 1/100%, or 1. If proportional band is 50%, then
gain is 1/50%, or 2.
A proportional-only controller cannot control most processes well because it
never reaches the desired setpoint. This offset, defined as the difference
between the desired setpoint and the actual process value that the
controller can achieve for the process, is due to the mathematical nature of
the proportional control mode. Because there is only one controller signal
output value associated with the particular process variable value the
controller is reading, the controller sticks to its rigid mathematical
association between input and output values. It cannot recognize that there
is a problem of not achieving the desired setpoint value with
proportional-only control. Increasing the controller gain will reduce, but
not eliminate, the offset, but too much gain will result in unstable control
that will oscillate endlessly above and below the desired setpoint.
INTEGRAL
Integral settings are defined in repeats per minute or minutes per repeat. A
setting of 10 repeats per minute will instruct the controller to repeat the
action 10 times each minute. In general, the more often the repeats, the
faster the offset will be eliminated. Integral control is a control mode
that acts only as long as an offset exists.
<<<<<<
There are three basic modes of control:
1. Proportional - operates on off-set and never reaches setpoint
2. Integral - time.
4. Derivative - anticipation, measurting rate of change.
PID controllers, which incorporate all three, are generally better.
Certainly more flexible. In short, the PI of the CM67: proportional gets it
near the setpoint, but never reaches setpoint because it operates on
"offset". A proportional controler can sit there all day and not move and
the setpoint will not be reached. They need a prod. The Integral mode of
control operates on time and pulses the offset (the differnce bewteen the
setting the proportional mode has decided to stay on an the setpoint) up to
setpoint, giving high accuracy.
Be careful not to have the proportional band too tight as "hunting" will
occur, known is short cycling to you.
In a CM67, the control aspect that times the delayed start is separet from
the PI temperature control.
The time proportions of the CM67, are a crude way of keeping an on-off
boiler within the proportional band.
The CM67 can control an electric actuator. A better system would be a heat
bank, heated by a basic on-off control boiler (these are cheaper and have
simple more reliable basic controls. The CH flow and return pipes would
have a modulated 3-way valve, moved up and down by and electric actuator.
This can stop at any point in the travel. This way only PI control would be
used and guarantee much more accuracy of setpoint temperature control. As
many heat bank and thermal stores are recommended to be on 24/7, the boiler
can be controlled only by the heat bank and the CM67 moves the modulated
valve and switches on the pump when it calculates the start time.
> Bandwidth is a bad word to use but is the usual one. Normally it's
> used in connection with radio and network engineering to mean
> something completely different.
It is not "bandwidth". It is "Proportional Band - width". The "width" is
the range of the band, e.g., 2C. That is the setpoint and 1C either side.
< snip crap about snakes, which should all be banned >
IMM
And ignorance. Most installers know sweet nothing of control.
Andy Hall
>
<< snip cut and pasted explanation>>
>
>There are three basic modes of control:
>
>1. Proportional - operates on off-set and never reaches setpoint
>2. Integral - time.
>4. Derivative - anticipation, measurting rate of change.
>
>PID controllers, which incorporate all three, are generally better.
>Certainly more flexible. In short, the PI of the CM67: proportional gets it
>near the setpoint, but never reaches setpoint because it operates on
>"offset". A proportional controler can sit there all day and not move and
>the setpoint will not be reached. They need a prod. The Integral mode of
>control operates on time and pulses the offset (the differnce bewteen the
>setting the proportional mode has decided to stay on an the setpoint) up to
>setpoint, giving high accuracy.
>
>Be careful not to have the proportional band too tight as "hunting" will
>occur, known is short cycling to you.
Hunting is hunting. It is not short cycling but movement around the
set point.
>
>In a CM67, the control aspect that times the delayed start is separet from
>the PI temperature control.
They could conceivably be related. the manufacturer doesn't say.
>
>The time proportions of the CM67, are a crude way of keeping an on-off
>boiler within the proportional band.
That was already covered.
>
>The CM67 can control an electric actuator. A better system would be a heat
>bank, heated by a basic on-off control boiler (these are cheaper and have
>simple more reliable basic controls. The CH flow and return pipes would
>have a modulated 3-way valve, moved up and down by and electric actuator.
>This can stop at any point in the travel. This way only PI control would be
>used and guarantee much more accuracy of setpoint temperature control. As
>many heat bank and thermal stores are recommended to be on 24/7, the boiler
>can be controlled only by the heat bank and the CM67 moves the modulated
>valve and switches on the pump when it calculates the start time.
I think you are confusing the issue. From the control mathematics
perspective this is PI control exactly the same. All that this
achieves, although it will work is perhaps finer grain control of heat
delivery from the heatbank to the radiators. Of itself, the heatbank
is a red herring in this if the boiler is not part of the main control
loop.
I would also be surprised if a valve for this application would be
modulated with a ten minute or even 5 minute cycle time. but rather
that it would have some form of electronic control requiring a much
shorter cycle time -seconds or even sub second.
Can you suggest a make and model that would have the characteristics
to work with a controller like the CM6x which has a much longer time?
>
>> Bandwidth is a bad word to use but is the usual one. Normally it's
>> used in connection with radio and network engineering to mean
>> something completely different.
>
>It is not "bandwidth". It is "Proportional Band - width". The "width" is
>the range of the band, e.g., 2C. That is the setpoint and 1C either side.
Obviously, and that is explained in the data sheets. However it is
often written as a single word in controller data sheets.
>
>< snip crap about snakes, which should all be banned >
>
Well.... they were around before you and will probably be afterwards.
This is a real life application using an industrial type of PID
controller and served as a reasonable explanation of some of the
principles.
I felt that it was a better illustration than simply cutting and
pasting material from a web site
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 23:37:40 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> << snip cut and pasted explanation>>
> >
> >There are three basic modes of control:
> >
> >1. Proportional - operates on off-set and never reaches setpoint
> >2. Integral - time.
> >4. Derivative - anticipation, measurting rate of change.
> >
> >PID controllers, which incorporate all three, are generally better.
> >Certainly more flexible. In short, the PI of the CM67: proportional gets
it
> >near the setpoint, but never reaches setpoint because it operates on
> >"offset". A proportional controler can sit there all day and not move
and
> >the setpoint will not be reached. They need a prod. The Integral mode
of
> >control operates on time and pulses the offset (the differnce bewteen the
> >setting the proportional mode has decided to stay on an the setpoint) up
to
> >setpoint, giving high accuracy.
> >
> >Be careful not to have the proportional band too tight as "hunting" will
> >occur, known is short cycling to you.
>
> Hunting is hunting. It is not short cycling but movement around the
> set point.
It is a form of short cycling an easier for others to understand.
> >In a CM67, the control aspect that times the delayed start is separet
from
> >the PI temperature control.
>
> They could conceivably be related. the manufacturer doesn't say.
Controlwise they have to be eparte. The user doesn't know this nor care.
> >The time proportions of the CM67, are a crude way of keeping an on-off
> >boiler within the proportional band.
>
> That was already covered.
> >
> >The CM67 can control an electric actuator. A better system would be a
heat
> >bank, heated by a basic on-off control boiler (these are cheaper and have
> >simple more reliable basic controls. The CH flow and return pipes would
> >have a modulated 3-way valve, moved up and down by and electric actuator.
> >This can stop at any point in the travel. This way only PI control would
be
> >used and guarantee much more accuracy of setpoint temperature control.
As
> >many heat bank and thermal stores are recommended to be on 24/7, the
boiler
> >can be controlled only by the heat bank and the CM67 moves the modulated
> >valve and switches on the pump when it calculates the start time.
>
> I think you are confusing the issue.
Not at all.
> From the control mathematics
> perspective this is PI control exactly the same. All that this
> achieves, although it will work is perhaps finer grain control of heat
> delivery from the heatbank to the radiators. Of itself, the heatbank
> is a red herring in this if the boiler is not part of the main control
> loop.
Not so. The heat bank can sit there 24/7 keeping itself to its own setpoint
providing a nice constant heat source. Just a store of heat. The CM67 will
then just switch on the CH pump and modulate the CH actuator. Modulating a
3-way valve gives far more precise temperature control than switching in and
out a boiler.
Another way is that the thermal store can be switched on also by another
CM67. The desired time must be earlier than the time of the heating. This
is if you can replace the room temperature sensor with a water strap-on
cylinder sensor of course.
> I would also be surprised if a valve for this application would be
> modulated with a ten minute or even 5 minute cycle time. but rather
> that it would have some form of electronic control requiring a much
> shorter cycle time -seconds or even sub second.
All those cycle times in minutes would be redundant, as only PI control on
an actuator is required.
> Can you suggest a make and model that would have the characteristics
> to work with a controller like the CM6x which has a much longer time?
> >> Bandwidth is a bad word to use but is the usual one. Normally it's
> >> used in connection with radio and network engineering to mean
> >> something completely different.
> >
> >It is not "bandwidth". It is "Proportional Band - width". The "width"
is
> >the range of the band, e.g., 2C. That is the setpoint and 1C either
side.
>
> Obviously, and that is explained in the data sheets. However it is
> often written as a single word in controller data sheets.
> >< snip crap about snakes, which should all be banned >
> >
> Well.... they were around before you and will probably be afterwards.
Don't care They should not be allowed in the country. If a couple of those
get out and breed in the wild.
Anthony James
> I've just finally bitten the bullet and installed a Honeywell CM67
> Programmable Room Stat
Does anyone have any views on the relative merits of the Honeywell and ACL
Drayton programmable stats? Much of a muchness?
Tony Bryer
wrote:
> Thanks again to old CH hands in this group. Why on earth
> installers put the Mickey Mouse stats or in my case none at all
> can only be put down to cost, but for the sake of less than 90
> quid it's false economy in my book.
Because people understand basic thermostats. I think the CM67 is a
brilliant piece of work (especially being able to use the party
button to kill the heating for a few hours if you go out) but you
need to understand the concept of time/temperature variations
rather than on/off and then how to override it when required.
It's not difficult but I put one in at my mum's place and she
really does not like. With a £10 stat when the rads went cold she
could just turn it up a bit more <g>. Expensive controls that
people cannot/will not master are a waste of money.
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
Bungle & Zippy
"Kamel Norman" <nor...@mhus.arelz.qkn.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4120e9e4f6a611ac...@news.1usenet.com...
> Fuck off, Harry, you useless goat penis.
Sore losers
--
Inside information? Never
Try Aunt Bessies foods, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, yummy
Andy Hall
It's a totally different mechanism
>
>> >In a CM67, the control aspect that times the delayed start is separet
>from
>> >the PI temperature control.
>>
>> They could conceivably be related. the manufacturer doesn't say.
>
>Controlwise they have to be eparte. The user doesn't know this nor care.
Not true. The piece controlling the optimised start could make very
good use of knowledge of the characteristics of the PI part. Whether
it does or not is a matter for the manufacturer.
>
>> >The time proportions of the CM67, are a crude way of keeping an on-off
>> >boiler within the proportional band.
>>
>> That was already covered.
>> >
>> >The CM67 can control an electric actuator. A better system would be a
>heat
>> >bank, heated by a basic on-off control boiler (these are cheaper and have
>> >simple more reliable basic controls. The CH flow and return pipes would
>> >have a modulated 3-way valve, moved up and down by and electric actuator.
>> >This can stop at any point in the travel. This way only PI control would
>be
>> >used and guarantee much more accuracy of setpoint temperature control.
>As
>> >many heat bank and thermal stores are recommended to be on 24/7, the
>boiler
>> >can be controlled only by the heat bank and the CM67 moves the modulated
>> >valve and switches on the pump when it calculates the start time.
>>
>> I think you are confusing the issue.
>
>Not at all.
You are because the heatbank is only a source of heat if designed to
be oversized by a reasonable amount so that the boiler behaviour goes
out of the equation.
>
>> From the control mathematics
>> perspective this is PI control exactly the same. All that this
>> achieves, although it will work is perhaps finer grain control of heat
>> delivery from the heatbank to the radiators. Of itself, the heatbank
>> is a red herring in this if the boiler is not part of the main control
>> loop.
>
>Not so. The heat bank can sit there 24/7 keeping itself to its own setpoint
>providing a nice constant heat source. Just a store of heat.
Exactly, but that's all.
>The CM67 will
>then just switch on the CH pump and modulate the CH actuator. Modulating a
>3-way valve gives far more precise temperature control than switching in and
>out a boiler.
I don't disagree with that notion but can you suggest a make and model
that can be modulated in a precise "analogue" way (i.e. part opened)
by a CM67 type of controller with a long cycle time?
There are certainly valves that can be modulated with a DC voltage (I
have some) and I could imagine pulse width modulated using a much
shorter cycle time - e.g. in the way that model control servos work.
If you can't suggest one that will work with the CM67 type of
controller, then the argument becomes a bit academic because either a
different type of controller is needed, which is not in the same price
bracket, or you would be talking about a standard motorised zone valve
and proportioned on/off control of it. That would be a bit better
than controlling a boiler on/off, although with a lightweight heat
exchange type, I don't think that the difference would be substantial.
>
>Another way is that the thermal store can be switched on also by another
>CM67. The desired time must be earlier than the time of the heating. This
>is if you can replace the room temperature sensor with a water strap-on
>cylinder sensor of course.
Yes of course, but this is adding extra complication. As you said, a
thermal store ought to be on 24/7 anyway.
>
>> I would also be surprised if a valve for this application would be
>> modulated with a ten minute or even 5 minute cycle time. but rather
>> that it would have some form of electronic control requiring a much
>> shorter cycle time -seconds or even sub second.
>
>All those cycle times in minutes would be redundant, as only PI control on
>an actuator is required.
The proportional pulse width output from the controller would be used,
but can you suggest a valve that will take this and use it to operate
the valve to arbitrary positions.
>
>
>> >< snip crap about snakes, which should all be banned >
>> >
>> Well.... they were around before you and will probably be afterwards.
>
>Don't care They should not be allowed in the country. If a couple of those
>get out and breed in the wild.
>
Don't be silly. Clearly you know very little about herpetology.
First of all, the particular snakes in question (Brazilian Rainbow Boa
- Epichrates Cenchria Cenchria) range in the wild in the Brazilian
rainforest and their habitat is rapidly disappearing together with
their numbers in the wild. They do, however, breed and thrive
perfectly well in captivity, given the right conditions of temperature
and humidity (28 - 31 degrees and 70-80% humidity). In order for
them to breed, the conditions have to be right and there needs to be a
pattern of temperature drop and rise around the breeding time.
The UK climate simply won't create the conditions for them to breed in
the wild and they would be unlikely to live for very long in the wild
anyway. Considering the massive species loss in the rainforests,
anything that can be done to sustain them in captivity until their
natural habitat issues can be resolved is a positive step.
The Most Rev. Peter Parsnip
Bloomfield, and I thusly replied:
> Set Square wrote on 08/02/2004 :-
>> This seems to be working, but I'm curious to know what algorithm it
>> uses in order to decide when to turn on the heating. The literature
>> doesn't make this clear, so I wonder whether any of you actually know?
>
> 20 years ago I designed one of these controllers and the next stage in
> its development was to include the facility which you mention. The
> whole idea was well ahead of the market at that time, so I was
> struggling on new ground.
>
> I got as far as working out a rough algorithm. It went something
> like...
You do like to sing your own praises, don't you?
--
The Reverend Parson Peter Parsnip
Smiting Sinful Usenet Users Since 1874
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his
tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord."
- Deuteronomy 23:2
Phil Kyle
> Set Square wrote on 08/02/2004 :-
>> This seems to be working, but I'm curious to know what algorithm it uses in
>> order to decide when to turn on the heating. The literature doesn't make
>> this clear, so I wonder whether any of you actually know?
>
> 20 years ago I designed one of these controllers and the next stage in
> its development was to include the facility which you mention.
Good, you must be nearly dead now then.
>The
> whole idea was well ahead of the market at that time, so I was
> struggling on new ground.
Modesty, Harry.
>
> I got as far as working out a rough algorithm. It went something
> like...
>
> Starting with a basic programmed in setting, then incrementing or
> decrementing preheat time value, based on whether it attained the
> temperature before or after the set time. Which equates roughly with
> your last suggested method.
>
> It was all very experimental. There was a theory going around, that in
> order to achieve this function, that an outside temperature sensor
> would be needed to enable the calculation to be done satisfactorily. I
> wonder if your unit includes an outdoor temperature sensor?
Christ that was boring.
--
Phil Kyle - Usenet Legend.
http://philkyle2003.reachme.at/
"If Harry would just shut up half the
problems on this group would go away,
He brought the trolls here from
local.yorkshire in the first place!! " - wemfish
tony sayer
>be oversized by a reasonable amount so that the boiler behaviour goes
>out of the equation.
So what does a Suprima having a lockout wobbly have on all this then?...
--
Tony Sayer
Andy Hall
wrote:
You'd need to ask Professor Stanley Unwin that question.
I'm pretty sure that he was IMM's english language teature.....
tony sayer
<an...@hall.nospam> writes
Better get the glass out for the seance then, he threw off his mortal
coil a while ago.
Still, could you imagine the glass wizzing about with the
answer:-)).....
--
Tony Sayer
Andy Hall
wrote:
>In article <n6pf2016p9qs3ecme...@4ax.com>, Andy Hall
><an...@hall.nospam> writes
>>On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:56:53 +0000, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>You are because the heatbank is only a source of heat if designed to
>>>>be oversized by a reasonable amount so that the boiler behaviour goes
>>>>out of the equation.
>>>
>>>
>>>So what does a Suprima having a lockout wobbly have on all this then?...
>>
>>
>>You'd need to ask Professor Stanley Unwin that question.
>>
>>I'm pretty sure that he was IMM's english language teature.....
>>
>>
>
>Better get the glass out for the seance then, he threw off his mortal
>coil a while ago.
>
>Still, could you imagine the glass wizzing about with the
>answer:-)).....
Doesn't bear thinking about, does it?
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
It constantly moves up and down in an on-off manner.
> >> >In a CM67, the control aspect that times the delayed start is separet
> >from
> >> >the PI temperature control.
> >>
> >> They could conceivably be related. the manufacturer doesn't say.
> >
> >Controlwise they have to be separte. The user doesn't know this nor
care.
>
> Not true. The piece controlling the optimised start could make very
> good use of knowledge of the characteristics of the PI part. Whether
> it does or not is a matter for the manufacturer.
It could supply data to other control processes, but it is a separate
control process.
And, the modulating 3-way valve has finer accuracy to maintain a setpoint
temperature than switching on-off a boiler.
> >> From the control mathematics
> >> perspective this is PI control exactly the same. All that this
> >> achieves, although it will work is perhaps finer grain control of heat
> >> delivery from the heatbank to the radiators. Of itself, the heatbank
> >> is a red herring in this if the boiler is not part of the main control
> >> loop.
> >
> >Not so. The heat bank can sit there 24/7 keeping itself to its own
setpoint
> >providing a nice constant heat source. Just a store of heat.
>
> Exactly, but that's all.
See above.
> >The CM67 will
> >then just switch on the CH pump and modulate the CH actuator. Modulating
a
> >3-way valve gives far more precise temperature control than switching in
and
> >out a boiler.
>
> I don't disagree with that notion
> but can you suggest a make and model
> that can be modulated in a precise "analogue"
> way (i.e. part opened) by a CM67 type of
> controller with a long cycle time?
The cycle times are not a part of the Integral aspect of the controller
AFAICS.
> There are certainly valves that can be
> modulated with a DC voltage (I
> have some) and I could imagine pulse
> width modulated using a much
> shorter cycle time - e.g. in the way that
> model control servos work.
There are 230v electric modulating valves available. Look in the CM67 pdf,
it has a diagram of one.
> If you can't suggest one that will work with the CM67 type of
> controller, then the argument becomes a bit academic because either a
> different type of controller is needed, which is not in the same price
> bracket, or you would be talking about a standard motorised zone valve
> and proportioned on/off control of it. That would be a bit better
> than controlling a boiler on/off, although with a lightweight heat
> exchange type, I don't think that the difference would be substantial.
What I am on about is a "modulted" 3-port mixing valve, with an electric
actuator. I have a few here.
> >Another way is that the thermal store can be switched on also by another
> >CM67. The desired time must be earlier than the time of the heating.
This
> >is if you can replace the room temperature sensor with a water strap-on
> >cylinder sensor of course.
>
> Yes of course, but this is adding extra complication. As you said, a
> thermal store ought to be on 24/7 anyway.
It depends on how far you want to take it. A CM67 on a themal store will
learn how long it takes the boiler to heat it up, and bring it on at the
right time.
> >> I would also be surprised if a valve for this application would be
> >> modulated with a ten minute or even 5 minute cycle time. but rather
> >> that it would have some form of electronic control requiring a much
> >> shorter cycle time -seconds or even sub second.
> >
> >All those cycle times in minutes would be redundant, as only PI control
on
> >an actuator is required.
>
> The proportional pulse width output from the controller would be used,
> but can you suggest a valve that will take this and use it to operate
> the valve to arbitrary positions.
AFAIK, the cm67 when controlling the setpoint temperature, only applies PI
control modes. The cycle times appear to be an underlying control layer
which only allows the boiler and PI control on it at certain time periods.
< snip crap about snakes, which should all be banned.>
<If Brazil is short of snakes then you should not be having one. >
Andy Hall
>
>> >> >
>> >> >Be careful not to have the proportional band too tight as "hunting"
>will
>> >> >occur, known is short cycling to you.
>> >>
>> >> Hunting is hunting. It is not short cycling but movement around the
>> >> set point.
>> >
>> >It is a form of short cycling an easier for others to understand.
>>
>> It's a totally different mechanism
>
>It constantly moves up and down in an on-off manner.
That's a good technical explanation....:-)
>
>> >> >In a CM67, the control aspect that times the delayed start is separet
>> >from
>> >> >the PI temperature control.
>> >>
>> >> They could conceivably be related. the manufacturer doesn't say.
>> >
>> >Controlwise they have to be separte. The user doesn't know this nor
>care.
>>
>> Not true. The piece controlling the optimised start could make very
>> good use of knowledge of the characteristics of the PI part. Whether
>> it does or not is a matter for the manufacturer.
>
>It could supply data to other control processes, but it is a separate
>control process.
Of course.
Yes, except that I was referring to the heatbank.
>
>> >> From the control mathematics
>> >> perspective this is PI control exactly the same. All that this
>> >> achieves, although it will work is perhaps finer grain control of heat
>> >> delivery from the heatbank to the radiators. Of itself, the heatbank
>> >> is a red herring in this if the boiler is not part of the main control
>> >> loop.
>> >
>> >Not so. The heat bank can sit there 24/7 keeping itself to its own
>setpoint
>> >providing a nice constant heat source. Just a store of heat.
>>
>> Exactly, but that's all.
>
>See above.
Glad to see that you clarified it.
>
>> >The CM67 will
>> >then just switch on the CH pump and modulate the CH actuator. Modulating
>a
>> >3-way valve gives far more precise temperature control than switching in
>and
>> >out a boiler.
>>
>> I don't disagree with that notion
>> but can you suggest a make and model
>> that can be modulated in a precise "analogue"
>> way (i.e. part opened) by a CM67 type of
>> controller with a long cycle time?
>
>The cycle times are not a part of the Integral aspect of the controller
>AFAICS.
I am referring to the specific method of operating the control valve -
the signalling between the controller and the valve. The CM67
provides a pulse with a total width of anything from 5 to 20 minutes
depending on the what is configured on the setup. In order to
control the controlled device (boiler, motorised valve etc) it will be
on for between 1 minute and 100% of that time while operating in the
proportional band. On the fastest cycle time, that will equate to
a range between 60 and 300 seconds of on time per 300 second cycle.
What I have specifically asked you to provide is the make and model of
a valve which will operate in a modulated fashion given that type of
control signal.
Please reply to that specific point.
I would be surprised if such a thing exists. I know that there are
voltage controlled modulating valves ( I have some radiator valves
that can be controlled by 0-10v DC); and I could believe that there
are some that would modulate based on a pulse width with a much
shorter cycle time ( a second or less)
>
>> There are certainly valves that can be
>> modulated with a DC voltage (I
>> have some) and I could imagine pulse
>> width modulated using a much
>> shorter cycle time - e.g. in the way that
>> model control servos work.
>
>There are 230v electric modulating valves available. Look in the CM67 pdf,
>it has a diagram of one.
I just have. Presumably you are referring to the sheet I posted -
http://tinyurl.com/2yc23
It doesn't say anything about it being modulating.
There is a thermal actuator (diagram c) controlling a boiler. This
type of device is a thermally operated relay which controls the boiler
on and off, not modulating.
There is an electric actuator (diagram h) which is an electric
actuator. This is a motorised device to operate some kind of
mechanical entity such as a damper. It even shows the limit switches
which stop travel. This isn't a modulated device either.
Did you mean something different? Please provide the URL to the CM67
sheet that shows it if I have the wrong one.
>
>> If you can't suggest one that will work with the CM67 type of
>> controller, then the argument becomes a bit academic because either a
>> different type of controller is needed, which is not in the same price
>> bracket, or you would be talking about a standard motorised zone valve
>> and proportioned on/off control of it. That would be a bit better
>> than controlling a boiler on/off, although with a lightweight heat
>> exchange type, I don't think that the difference would be substantial.
>
>What I am on about is a "modulted" 3-port mixing valve, with an electric
>actuator. I have a few here.
I know. Please provide the make and model of them. I am simply
asking you to provide details of a *modulated* device which will work
with a CM67.
>
>> >Another way is that the thermal store can be switched on also by another
>> >CM67. The desired time must be earlier than the time of the heating.
>This
>> >is if you can replace the room temperature sensor with a water strap-on
>> >cylinder sensor of course.
>>
>> Yes of course, but this is adding extra complication. As you said, a
>> thermal store ought to be on 24/7 anyway.
>
>It depends on how far you want to take it. A CM67 on a themal store will
>learn how long it takes the boiler to heat it up, and bring it on at the
>right time.
True.
>
>> >> I would also be surprised if a valve for this application would be
>> >> modulated with a ten minute or even 5 minute cycle time. but rather
>> >> that it would have some form of electronic control requiring a much
>> >> shorter cycle time -seconds or even sub second.
>> >
>> >All those cycle times in minutes would be redundant, as only PI control
>on
>> >an actuator is required.
>>
>> The proportional pulse width output from the controller would be used,
>> but can you suggest a valve that will take this and use it to operate
>> the valve to arbitrary positions.
>
>AFAIK, the cm67 when controlling the setpoint temperature, only applies PI
>control modes. The cycle times appear to be an underlying control layer
>which only allows the boiler and PI control on it at certain time periods.
The cycle time is about choosing a control signal suitable for the
device being controlled e.g. boiler, zone valve, electric heater
>
>< snip crap about snakes, which should all be banned.>
><If Brazil is short of snakes then you should not be having one. >
>
They didn't come from Brazil, they were captive bred in the UK.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:59:17 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Be careful not to have the proportional band too tight as "hunting"
> >will
> >> >> >occur, known is short cycling to you.
> >> >>
> >> >> Hunting is hunting. It is not short cycling but movement around the
> >> >> set point.
> >> >
> >> >It is a form of short cycling an easier for others to understand.
> >>
> >> It's a totally different mechanism
> >
> >It constantly moves up and down in an on-off manner.
>
> That's a good technical explanation....:-)
Good enough for you.
The heat bank supplies the constant hot water for modulation purposes.
A pulse? A signal going on and off continuously?
> depending on the what is configured on the setup. In order to
> control the controlled device (boiler, motorised valve etc) it will be
> on for between 1 minute and 100% of that time while operating in the
> proportional band. On the fastest cycle time, that will equate to
> a range between 60 and 300 seconds of on time per 300 second cycle.
>
> What I have specifically asked you to provide is the make and model of
> a valve which will operate in a modulated fashion given that type of
> control signal.
>
> Please reply to that specific point.
The control signal is 230V.
> I would be surprised if such a thing exists. I know that there are
> voltage controlled modulating valves ( I have some radiator valves
> that can be controlled by 0-10v DC); and I could believe that there
> are some that would modulate based on a pulse width with a much
> shorter cycle time ( a second or less)
> >> There are certainly valves that can be
> >> modulated with a DC voltage (I
> >> have some) and I could imagine pulse
> >> width modulated using a much
> >> shorter cycle time - e.g. in the way that
> >> model control servos work.
> >
> >There are 230v electric modulating valves available. Look in the CM67
pdf,
> >it has a diagram of one.
>
> I just have. Presumably you are referring to the sheet I posted -
> http://tinyurl.com/2yc23
>
> It doesn't say anything about it being modulating.
It does. A reversible motor. 230v on one terminal and it moves one way,
same the other way. Stop the singal and it stays where it is.
> There is a thermal actuator (diagram c) controlling a boiler. This
> type of device is a thermally operated relay which controls the boiler
> on and off, not modulating.
>
> There is an electric actuator (diagram h) which is an electric
> actuator. This is a motorised device to operate some kind of
> mechanical entity such as a damper. It even shows the limit switches
> which stop travel. This isn't a modulated device either.
It appears to be.
> Did you mean something different? Please provide the URL to the CM67
> sheet that shows it if I have the wrong one.
> >> If you can't suggest one that will work with the CM67 type of
> >> controller, then the argument becomes a bit academic because either a
> >> different type of controller is needed, which is not in the same price
> >> bracket, or you would be talking about a standard motorised zone valve
> >> and proportioned on/off control of it. That would be a bit better
> >> than controlling a boiler on/off, although with a lightweight heat
> >> exchange type, I don't think that the difference would be substantial.
> >
> >What I am on about is a "modulted" 3-port mixing valve, with an electric
> >actuator. I have a few here.
>
> I know. Please provide the make and model of them. I am simply
> asking you to provide details of a *modulated* device which will work
> with a CM67.
Any maker makes them. They are common.
AFAIK the CM67 can operate a 230v modulated valve. If that is not the case
(specs vague on this from wjat I have seen), then I think the Landis &
Staefa version can. If so, I would go for this controller not the CM67. I
tend to prefer Landis & Staefa controls anyhow. They are much more
reliable, better made, better user intefaces and generally cheaper too.
> >< snip crap about snakes, which should all be banned.>
> ><If Brazil is short of snakes then you should not be having one. >
> >
> They didn't come from Brazil, they were captive bred in the UK.
They should be sent back to the wild then.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
You were on about individual radiator electronic control:
http://europe.hbc.honeywell.com/products/docs/CMZONE.html
IMM
"IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote in message
news:c0a9jd$mou$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> AFAIK the CM67 can operate a 230v modulated valve. If that is not the
case
> (specs vague on this from wjat I have seen), then I think the Landis &
> Staefa version can. If so, I would go for this controller not the CM67.
I
> tend to prefer Landis & Staefa controls anyhow. They are much more
> reliable, better made, better user intefaces and generally cheaper too.
The Landis & Staefa RVP will give proportional control by driving a servo on
top of a mixing valve, measuring the flow, return, inside and outside
temperatures, deriving the setting from a pre learnt heating curve for your
house. Assuming your boiler already has a RVP the extra cost is about 200
quid for the valve and servo. With a rad based system I would recommend
fitting this type of control as the temperature swings are eliminated by
matching the heat input to the heat loss. But with UFH time constant you
would really gain much from these controls.
IMM
Even better:
http://europe.hbc.honeywell.com/products/docs/APPLCMZONE.html
Neil Jones
I was just looking at these a few minutes ago, but I can't find a
supplier or pricing info. Any ideas?
Neil
IMM
"Neil Jones" <ne...@the-joneses.org.uk> wrote in message
news:c0aeqh$12dth6$1...@ID-215588.news.uni-berlin.de...
Not really. Try ringing Honeywell at some awful place called Bracknell, who
will give you the distributors.
It is very, very neat, but I don't think cheap, or I may be surprised.
Neil Jones
In my experience they'll point me in the direction of an 'installer' who
wants to supply and fit (for an arm and a leg), not supply only.
I like the idea but the HR80 seems a bit bulky.
Neil
Tony Bryer
> I was just looking at these a few minutes ago, but I can't find a
> supplier or pricing info. Any ideas?
They may not yet be into the supply chain. PHAM magazine came today
and has a write-up on them as a new product with launch
presentations from Feb 17th
Neil Jones
"Tony Bryer" <to...@delme.sda.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VA.000027b...@delme.sda.co.uk...
OK, thanks. The HR80 has been around for I bit, I think, as part of the
Hometronic system. As far as I can see, the new bit is the CF67z.
Neil
IMM
>
> "Tony Bryer" <to...@delme.sda.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:VA.000027b...@delme.sda.co.uk...
> > In article <c0aeqh$12dth6$1...@ID-215588.news.uni-berlin.de>, Neil
> > Jones wrote:
> > > I was just looking at these a few minutes ago, but I can't find a
> > > supplier or pricing info. Any ideas?
> >
> > They may not yet be into the supply chain. PHAM magazine came today
> > and has a write-up on them as a new product with launch
> > presentations from Feb 17th
> > Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
> > Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
>
> OK, thanks. The HR80 has been around for I bit, I think, as part of the
> Hometronic system. As far as I can see, the new bit is the CF67z.
Looks very neat and hassle free to install. If it takes off many imitators
will emerge dropping prices.
Set Square
Neil Jones <ne...@the-joneses.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was just looking at these a few minutes ago, but I can't find a
>>> supplier or pricing info. Any ideas?
>
> I like the idea but the HR80 seems a bit bulky.
>
> Neil
Have a word with Richard at RKM Heating Controls (01954 261855). I can't see
the HR80 or CM67z on their website, but they can probably get a price for
you - and will sell you the kit for DIY installation!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!
Andy Hall
>
>> >
>> >It constantly moves up and down in an on-off manner.
>>
>> That's a good technical explanation....:-)
>
>Good enough for you.
Your explanations are seldom good enough for me
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> >The CM67 will
>> >> >then just switch on the CH pump and modulate the CH actuator.
>Modulating
>> >a
>> >> >3-way valve gives far more precise temperature control than switching
>in
>> >and
>> >> >out a boiler.
>> >>
>> >> I don't disagree with that notion
>> >> but can you suggest a make and model
>> >> that can be modulated in a precise "analogue"
>> >> way (i.e. part opened) by a CM67 type of
>> >> controller with a long cycle time?
>> >
>> >The cycle times are not a part of the Integral aspect of the controller
>> >AFAICS.
>>
>> I am referring to the specific method of operating the control valve -
>> the signalling between the controller and the valve. The CM67
>> provides a pulse with a total width of anything from 5 to 20 minutes
>
>A pulse? A signal going on and off continuously?
This controller has a contact which makes and breaks with a duty cycle
as described - e.g. 1 minute on, 4 off out of a total of 5.
When this is controlling a supply to a device, it is pulse controlling
it in this case with a long duty cycle.
>
>> depending on the what is configured on the setup. In order to
>> control the controlled device (boiler, motorised valve etc) it will be
>> on for between 1 minute and 100% of that time while operating in the
>> proportional band. On the fastest cycle time, that will equate to
>> a range between 60 and 300 seconds of on time per 300 second cycle.
>>
>> What I have specifically asked you to provide is the make and model of
>> a valve which will operate in a modulated fashion given that type of
>> control signal.
>>
>> Please reply to that specific point.
>
>The control signal is 230V.
That's the source of power to the controlled device. The controller
is turning on and off.
>
>> >
>> >There are 230v electric modulating valves available. Look in the CM67
>pdf,
>> >it has a diagram of one.
>>
>> I just have. Presumably you are referring to the sheet I posted -
>> http://tinyurl.com/2yc23
>>
>> It doesn't say anything about it being modulating.
>
>It does. A reversible motor. 230v on one terminal and it moves one way,
>same the other way. Stop the singal and it stays where it is.
I very much doubt it. An actuator should run from end to end
reasonably quickly - certainly less than a minute.
You can't have an arrangement as you describe. This would require a
controller which could stop and start the motor and another to reverse
it and something to report back to the controller what the position
is.
That is not a simple actuator and it requires a more complex
controller than a CM67.
It is possible to have pulse width controlled actuators in other
applications where the control to it is effectively open loop, but the
pulse cycle time is vry much less and the switchover time in the cycle
used to determine the stopping position - not the same thing and it
also requires some electronics at the actuator to do the motor
control. This is how model control servos work, for example.
>
>> There is a thermal actuator (diagram c) controlling a boiler. This
>> type of device is a thermally operated relay which controls the boiler
>> on and off, not modulating.
>>
>> There is an electric actuator (diagram h) which is an electric
>> actuator. This is a motorised device to operate some kind of
>> mechanical entity such as a damper. It even shows the limit switches
>> which stop travel. This isn't a modulated device either.
>
>It appears to be.
I don't think so.
>> >
>> >What I am on about is a "modulted" 3-port mixing valve, with an electric
>> >actuator. I have a few here.
>>
>> I know. Please provide the make and model of them. I am simply
>> asking you to provide details of a *modulated* device which will work
>> with a CM67.
>
>Any maker makes them. They are common.
So please suggest a make and model that will work in a modulated
fashion with a CM67.
>
>
>AFAIK the CM67 can operate a 230v modulated valve.
OK, so now you are changing your tune.
> If that is not the case
>(specs vague on this from wjat I have seen), then I think the Landis &
>Staefa version can. If so, I would go for this controller not the CM67. I
>tend to prefer Landis & Staefa controls anyhow. They are much more
>reliable, better made, better user intefaces and generally cheaper too.
OK. Please supply the part number of the L&S controller that will do
this and a suitable modulating valve to go with it
>
>> >< snip crap about snakes, which should all be banned.>
>> ><If Brazil is short of snakes then you should not be having one. >
>> >
>> They didn't come from Brazil, they were captive bred in the UK.
>
>They should be sent back to the wild then.
>
To a diminishing habitat to die? Great idea.
Neil Jones
Thanks for that.
Neil
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:50:16 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >> >
> >> >It constantly moves up and down in an on-off manner.
> >>
> >> That's a good technical explanation....:-)
> >
> >Good enough for you.
>
> Your explanations are seldom good enough for me
I know your limits. Good enough for you.
That is not pulse. A pulse is a rapid on-off, probably 100s of time/sec.
> >> depending on the what is configured on the setup. In order to
> >> control the controlled device (boiler, motorised valve etc) it will be
> >> on for between 1 minute and 100% of that time while operating in the
> >> proportional band. On the fastest cycle time, that will equate to
> >> a range between 60 and 300 seconds of on time per 300 second cycle.
> >>
> >> What I have specifically asked you to provide is the make and model of
> >> a valve which will operate in a modulated fashion given that type of
> >> control signal.
> >>
> >> Please reply to that specific point.
> >
> >The control signal is 230V.
>
> That's the source of power to the controlled device. The controller
> is turning on and off.
> >> >There are 230v electric modulating valves available. Look in the CM67
> >pdf,
> >> >it has a diagram of one.
> >>
> >> I just have. Presumably you are referring to the sheet I posted -
> >> http://tinyurl.com/2yc23
> >>
> >> It doesn't say anything about it being modulating.
> >
> >It does. A reversible motor. 230v on one terminal and it moves one way,
> >same the other way. Stop the singal and it stays where it is.
>
> I very much doubt it. An actuator should run from end to end
> reasonably quickly - certainly less than a minute.
There are modulating actuators around. I must have about 4 of tem in boxes.
> You can't have an arrangement as you describe. This would require a
> controller which could stop and start the motor and another to reverse
> it and something to report back to the controller what the position
> is.
You know very little of HVAC control.
> That is not a simple actuator and it requires a more complex
> controller than a CM67.
>
> It is possible to have pulse width controlled actuators in other
> applications where the control to it is effectively open loop, but the
> pulse cycle time is vry much less and the switchover time in the cycle
> used to determine the stopping position - not the same thing and it
> also requires some electronics at the actuator to do the motor
> control. This is how model control servos work, for example.
>
>
> >
> >> There is a thermal actuator (diagram c) controlling a boiler. This
> >> type of device is a thermally operated relay which controls the boiler
> >> on and off, not modulating.
> >>
> >> There is an electric actuator (diagram h) which is an electric
> >> actuator. This is a motorised device to operate some kind of
> >> mechanical entity such as a damper. It even shows the limit switches
> >> which stop travel. This isn't a modulated device either.
> >
> >It appears to be.
>
> I don't think so.
It is vague.
> >> >What I am on about is a "modulted" 3-port mixing valve, with an
electric
> >> >actuator. I have a few here.
> >>
> >> I know. Please provide the make and model of them. I am simply
> >> asking you to provide details of a *modulated* device which will work
> >> with a CM67.
> >
> >Any maker makes them. They are common.
>
> So please suggest a make and model that will work in a modulated
> fashion with a CM67.
> >AFAIK the CM67 can operate a 230v modulated valve.
>
> OK, so now you are changing your tune.
>
> > If that is not the case
> >(specs vague on this from wjat I have seen), then I think the Landis &
> >Staefa version can. If so, I would go for this controller not the CM67.
I
> >tend to prefer Landis & Staefa controls anyhow. They are much more
> >reliable, better made, better user intefaces and generally cheaper too.
>
> OK. Please supply the part number of the L&S controller that will do
> this and a suitable modulating valve to go with it
Try their web site. It is not bad.
> >> >< snip crap about snakes, which should all be banned.>
> >> ><If Brazil is short of snakes then you should not be having one. >
> >> >
> >> They didn't come from Brazil, they were captive bred in the UK.
> >
> >They should be sent back to the wild then.
> >
> To a diminishing habitat to die? Great idea.
They don't belong here.
Andy Hall
>
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:vgmh20d0fshd8d0h5...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:50:16 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >It constantly moves up and down in an on-off manner.
>> >>
>> >> That's a good technical explanation....:-)
>> >
>> >Good enough for you.
>>
>> Your explanations are seldom good enough for me
>
>I know your limits. Good enough for you.
You don't, you know :-)
>
>>
>> This controller has a contact which makes and breaks with a duty cycle
>> as described - e.g. 1 minute on, 4 off out of a total of 5.
>> When this is controlling a supply to a device, it is pulse controlling
>> it in this case with a long duty cycle.
>
>That is not pulse. A pulse is a rapid on-off, probably 100s of time/sec.
It can be any cycle time. The technical definition does not put any
time limitations on it.
>
>
>> >> >There are 230v electric modulating valves available. Look in the CM67
>> >pdf,
>> >> >it has a diagram of one.
>> >>
>> >> I just have. Presumably you are referring to the sheet I posted -
>> >> http://tinyurl.com/2yc23
>> >>
>> >> It doesn't say anything about it being modulating.
>> >
>> >It does. A reversible motor. 230v on one terminal and it moves one way,
>> >same the other way. Stop the singal and it stays where it is.
>>
>> I very much doubt it. An actuator should run from end to end
>> reasonably quickly - certainly less than a minute.
>
>There are modulating actuators around. I must have about 4 of tem in boxes.
So please give the makes and models so that it can be seen how they
work.
>
>> You can't have an arrangement as you describe. This would require a
>> controller which could stop and start the motor and another to reverse
>> it and something to report back to the controller what the position
>> is.
>
>You know very little of HVAC control.
Stop trying to evade the point.
You have asserted that the CM67 can control a modulating valve.
You have further asserted that you have four such valves in boxes.
You have been asked three times to provide the makes and model numbers
of such valves.
You have tried to divert the subject onto a different make of
controller.
You continue to duck the clear and direct question that is asked.,
When provided with a bit more information that might lead you to
explain what you mean and how servos work you continue to evade and
suggest that I know little about HVAC control.
This is your classic modus operandi and doesn't fool anybody.
Why don't you either come up with a modulating valve type for the CM67
or simply admint that you made a mistake?
>
>> That is not a simple actuator and it requires a more complex
>> controller than a CM67.
>>
>> It is possible to have pulse width controlled actuators in other
>> applications where the control to it is effectively open loop, but the
>> pulse cycle time is vry much less and the switchover time in the cycle
>> used to determine the stopping position - not the same thing and it
>> also requires some electronics at the actuator to do the motor
>> control. This is how model control servos work, for example.
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> There is a thermal actuator (diagram c) controlling a boiler. This
>> >> type of device is a thermally operated relay which controls the boiler
>> >> on and off, not modulating.
>> >>
>> >> There is an electric actuator (diagram h) which is an electric
>> >> actuator. This is a motorised device to operate some kind of
>> >> mechanical entity such as a damper. It even shows the limit switches
>> >> which stop travel. This isn't a modulated device either.
>> >
>> >It appears to be.
>>
>> I don't think so.
>
>It is vague.
I agree, and you certainly can't deduce what you have from it
>
>> >> >What I am on about is a "modulted" 3-port mixing valve, with an
>electric
>> >> >actuator. I have a few here.
>> >>
>> >> I know. Please provide the make and model of them. I am simply
>> >> asking you to provide details of a *modulated* device which will work
>> >> with a CM67.
>> >
>> >Any maker makes them. They are common.
>>
>> So please suggest a make and model that will work in a modulated
>> fashion with a CM67.
>
>> >AFAIK the CM67 can operate a 230v modulated valve.
>>
>> OK, so now you are changing your tune.
>>
>> > If that is not the case
>> >(specs vague on this from wjat I have seen), then I think the Landis &
>> >Staefa version can. If so, I would go for this controller not the CM67.
>I
>> >tend to prefer Landis & Staefa controls anyhow. They are much more
>> >reliable, better made, better user intefaces and generally cheaper too.
>>
>> OK. Please supply the part number of the L&S controller that will do
>> this and a suitable modulating valve to go with it
>
>Try their web site. It is not bad.
I'm sure, but I'm asking the expert who claims to know all about this.
>
>> >> >< snip crap about snakes, which should all be banned.>
>> >> ><If Brazil is short of snakes then you should not be having one. >
>> >> >
>> >> They didn't come from Brazil, they were captive bred in the UK.
>> >
>> >They should be sent back to the wild then.
>> >
>> To a diminishing habitat to die? Great idea.
>
>They don't belong here.
>
It's a better solution than letting them become extinct.
There's some chance that their natural habitat can be stabilised at
some point.
IMM
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:44:02 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >news:vgmh20d0fshd8d0h5...@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:50:16 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >It constantly moves up and down in an on-off manner.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's a good technical explanation....:-)
> >> >
> >> >Good enough for you.
> >>
> >> Your explanations are seldom good enough for me
> >
> >I know your limits. Good enough for you.
>
> You don't, you know :-)
Andy, I "know".
> >> This controller has a contact which makes and breaks with a duty cycle
> >> as described - e.g. 1 minute on, 4 off out of a total of 5.
> >> When this is controlling a supply to a device, it is pulse controlling
> >> it in this case with a long duty cycle.
> >
> >That is not pulse. A pulse is a rapid on-off, probably 100s of time/sec.
>
> It can be any cycle time. The technical definition does not put any
> time limitations on it.
having a signal on for 6 minutes is not a pulse.
> >> >> >There are 230v electric modulating valves available. Look in the
CM67
> >> >pdf,
> >> >> >it has a diagram of one.
> >> >>
> >> >> I just have. Presumably you are referring to the sheet I posted -
> >> >> http://tinyurl.com/2yc23
> >> >>
> >> >> It doesn't say anything about it being modulating.
> >> >
> >> >It does. A reversible motor. 230v on one terminal and it moves one
way,
> >> >same the other way. Stop the singal and it stays where it is.
> >>
> >> I very much doubt it. An actuator should run from end to end
> >> reasonably quickly - certainly less than a minute.
> >
> >There are modulating actuators around. I must have about 4 of tem in
boxes.
>
> So please give the makes and models so that it can be seen how they
> work.
They are 230v electic actuators have a look:
http://www.landisstaefa.com/opc_e/catalog/cat_content.asp?
> >> You can't have an arrangement as you describe. This would require a
> >> controller which could stop and start the motor and another to reverse
> >> it and something to report back to the controller what the position
> >> is.
> >
> >You know very little of HVAC control.
>
> Stop trying to evade the point.
It is spot on.
> You have asserted that the CM67 can control a modulating valve.
It looked that way from the brief spec.
> You have further asserted that you have four such valves in boxes.
I have.
> You have been asked three times to provide the makes and model numbers
> of such valves.
There are some valve, not the ones I have, in the URL I provided.
> You have tried to divert the subject onto a different make of
> controller.
Which appears better.
> You continue to duck the clear and direct question that is asked.,
I don't .
> When provided with a bit more information that might lead you to
> explain what you mean and how servos work you continue to evade and
> suggest that I know little about HVAC control.
You know little about it that is clear fro all HVAC aficionados to see.
> This is your classic modus operandi and doesn't fool anybody.
I don't fools anyone. Obviously confuse the hard of thing though.
> Why don't you either come up with a modulating valve type for the CM67
> or simply admint that you made a mistake?
Honeywell tech dept are the peopel to ask.
Who cares if all snakes go.
IMM
> "Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> news:ibth20hougnknvm7i...@4ax.com...
> They are 230v electic actuators have a look:
> http://www.landisstaefa.com/opc_e/catalog/cat_content.asp?
Or try this:
http://tinyurl.com/ypjw7
IMM
The Landis & Staefa REV 300, this will modulate a valve. This is a class
act...
>>>
€ 215,00
CE1N2213
- Mains-independent, electronic PI controller with 3-position output,
battery-powered
- Self-explanatory touch screen
- Choice of 3 different 24-hour operating modes and one 7-day mode including
individually adjustable 24-hour modes
- Remote operation, override button
- Sensor calibration and reset function
- Locking of display buttons for cleaning or as a protection against
tampering
- Frost protection function and minimum limitation of setpoint
- Color: signal-white RAL 9003
- Holiday mode
-Optimum start control for the first heating period
-Adjustment of integral action time (volume adaptation)
-Adjustment of control gain (adaptation of heating output)
-For control of 3-position electromotoric actuators with a running time of
120...150 seconds (suitable for stroke or rotary actuators)
Operating modes:
- 24-hour mode with 1 heating period
- 24-hour mode with 2 heating periods
- 24-hour mode with 3 heating periods
- Continuously comfort temperature
- Continuously economy temperature
- Standby with frost protection setpoint (fixed: 5 °C)
- 7-day mode including individually adjustable 24-hour modes
Power supply DC 3 V batteries 2 x 1.5 V AA alkaline
Battery life approx. 2 years
Setpoint setting range 3...29 °C
Switching capacity of relay
Voltage AC 24...250 V
<<<
This also modulates a valve too
>>>>
REV33 € 181,00 CE1N2267
- Mains-independent, battery-powered electronic PI controller with 3-positio
n output
- With digital 7-day time switch for 24-hour, working day, weekend or 7-day
operation with up to 3 heating periods per day
- Straightforward, self-explanatory menu selection via roller selector
- Optimum start control for the first heating period
- One temperature setpoint for each heating period
- Remote operation
- Override button
- Sensor calibration and reset function
- Limitation of the minimum setpoint
- Holiday mode
- Color: signal-white RAL9003
- Adjustment of integral action time (volume adaptation)
- Adjustment of control gain (adaptation of heating output)
- For control of 3-position electromotoric actuators with a running time of
120...150 seconds (suitable for stroke or rotary actuators)
Operating modes:
- Automatic mode with 7-day switching program
- Continuously comfort temperature
- Continuously economy temperature
- Frost protection setpoint
- One 24-hour operating mode with one heating period
Voltage DC 3 V batteries 2 x 1.5 V AA alkaline
Battery life approx. 2 years
Setpoint setting range 5...29 °C
Switching capacity of relay
Voltage AC 24...250 V
Current0.1...6 (2.5) A
<<<<<
Set Square
>>
>>> They are 230v electic actuators have a look:
>>> http://www.landisstaefa.com/opc_e/catalog/cat_content.asp?
>>
>> Or try this:
>> http://tinyurl.com/ypjw7
>
> The Landis & Staefa REV 300, this will modulate a valve. This is a
> class act...
>
>>>>
> ? 215,00
> CE1N2213
>
>
> This also modulates a valve too
>
>>>>>
> REV33 ? 181,00 CE1N2267
>
This thread has rather lost its way - and has unfortunately degenerated into
a another slanging match between IMM and Andy - even including the merits or
otherwise of keeping snakes!
I thought that this part of the discussion was whether the CM67 could drive
a modulating type of mixing valve in order to control the output temperature
of the mixed water. Since the CM67's only interface to the outside world is
an on/off switch, it quite clearly can't provide closed-loop control of
anything which needs to be driven to any one of a virtually infinite number
of positions. From my experience, controlling mixed temperature with such a
valve actually requires two control loops - one inside the other. The outer
one monitors temperature, and outputs a position demand to the inner one.
The inner one monitors position, and drives the valve to the position
demanded by the outer loop.
Some of the kit cited by IMM can probably do this - but only by virtue of
it's own controllers - so it is not relevant in the context of the CM67
discussion.
Andy Hall
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:ibth20hougnknvm7i...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:44:02 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>> >news:vgmh20d0fshd8d0h5...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:50:16 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >It constantly moves up and down in an on-off manner.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That's a good technical explanation....:-)
>> >> >
>> >> >Good enough for you.
>> >>
>> >> Your explanations are seldom good enough for me
>> >
>> >I know your limits. Good enough for you.
>>
>> You don't, you know :-)
>
>Andy, I "know".
In the same way that Dr Evil "knew" Frau Farbissina, no doubt?
>
>> >> This controller has a contact which makes and breaks with a duty cycle
>> >> as described - e.g. 1 minute on, 4 off out of a total of 5.
>> >> When this is controlling a supply to a device, it is pulse controlling
>> >> it in this case with a long duty cycle.
>> >
>> >That is not pulse. A pulse is a rapid on-off, probably 100s of time/sec.
>>
>> It can be any cycle time. The technical definition does not put any
>> time limitations on it.
>
>having a signal on for 6 minutes is not a pulse.
There is no specific definition in control terms. If somehting goes
on and off and can be varied, it's a pulse.
Not to me it didn't. To me it was clear that a controller with a
cycle time of 5 minutes or more is not going to be able to control a
modulating device.
>
>> You have further asserted that you have four such valves in boxes.
>
>I have.
>
>> You have been asked three times to provide the makes and model numbers
>> of such valves.
>
>There are some valve, not the ones I have, in the URL I provided.
So you're bullshitting.
>
>> You have tried to divert the subject onto a different make of
>> controller.
>
>Which appears better.
It may well be,.
>
>> You continue to duck the clear and direct question that is asked.,
>
>I don't .
So where is the make and part number of the modulating actuators that
you claim to have?
>
>> When provided with a bit more information that might lead you to
>> explain what you mean and how servos work you continue to evade and
>> suggest that I know little about HVAC control.
>
>You know little about it that is clear fro all HVAC aficionados to see.
Clearly I know more about the subject thatn you, since you continue to
duck the direct and obvious questions and when challenged attempt to
play down the questioner. If you did this just occasionally, it
would go unnoticed. The trouble is that you do it every time that
somebody picks you up on a point where you have asserted something and
it has been demonstrated to be bullshit. Presumably your teacher is
the current occupant of No. 10. He thinks that he can do that, and
doesn't fool anyone either.
>
>> This is your classic modus operandi and doesn't fool anybody.
>
>I don't fools anyone. Obviously confuse the hard of thing though.
This is normally your tertiary step - spouting an incoherent sentence.
>
>> Why don't you either come up with a modulating valve type for the CM67
>> or simply admint that you made a mistake?
>
>Honeywell tech dept are the peopel to ask.
You might want to do that before you make statements on this subject
again. With luck you might avoid looking silly as you have done now.
>
>> >> >> ><If Brazil is short of snakes then you should not be having one. >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> They didn't come from Brazil, they were captive bred in the UK.
>> >> >
>> >> >They should be sent back to the wild then.
>> >> >
>> >> To a diminishing habitat to die? Great idea.
>> >
>> >They don't belong here.
>> >
>> It's a better solution than letting them become extinct.
>> There's some chance that their natural habitat can be stabilised at
>> some point.
>
>Who cares if all snakes go.
>
This is somewhat inconsistent with your normal eco-position isn't it?
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >> >> >> >It constantly moves up and down in an on-off manner.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That's a good technical explanation....:-)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Good enough for you.
> >> >>
> >> >> Your explanations are seldom good enough for me
> >> >
> >> >I know your limits. Good enough for you.
> >>
> >> You don't, you know :-)
> >
> >Andy, I "know".
>
> In the same way that Dr Evil "knew" Frau Farbissina, no doubt?
If you say so.
> >> >> This controller has a contact which makes and breaks with a duty
cycle
> >> >> as described - e.g. 1 minute on, 4 off out of a total of 5.
> >> >> When this is controlling a supply to a device, it is pulse
controlling
> >> >> it in this case with a long duty cycle.
> >> >
> >> >That is not pulse. A pulse is a rapid on-off, probably 100s of
time/sec.
> >>
> >> It can be any cycle time. The technical definition does not put any
> >> time limitations on it.
> >
> >having a signal on for 6 minutes is not a pulse.
>
> There is no specific definition in control terms. If somehting goes
> on and off and can be varied, it's a pulse.
That is switched. A big difference.
If it is switched off it can
> >> You have further asserted that you have four such valves in boxes.
> >
> >I have.
> >
> >> You have been asked three times to provide the makes and model numbers
> >> of such valves.
> >
> >There are some valve, not the ones I have, in the URL I provided.
>
> So you're bullshitting.
I don't have bunch here? Oh I do!
> >> You have tried to divert the subject onto a different make of
> >> controller.
> >
> >Which appears better.
>
> It may well be,.
> >> You continue to duck the clear and direct question that is asked.,
> >
> >I don't .
>
> So where is the make and part number of the modulating actuators that
> you claim to have?
Why? Why are you so concerned what is in a cupboard? Some are Satchwell,
some are L&G
> >> When provided with a bit more information that might lead you to
> >> explain what you mean and how servos work you continue to evade and
> >> suggest that I know little about HVAC control.
> >
> >You know little about it that is clear fro all HVAC aficionados to see.
>
> Clearly I know more about the subject thatn you,
That snake has gone to his head.
< snip drivel >
Andy Hall
This is *precisely* the point that I made in earlier posts in this
thread.
The SSB31... and SSB81.. valves are 3 position types which can be
controlled with an on/off signal.
You apply a voltage (24 or 240v depending on model) between Y1 or Y2
and neutral and it will drive the actuator towards one end of travel
or the other.
The controller to use this (e.g. REV300) relies on the end to end
travel time being 150 seconds and the controller times the length of
the on signal to adjust the valve. This is actually a really poor
method of control because the controller has no absolute way of
knowing the valve position and has to periodically drive it to and end
point to calibrate it.
The CM67 type of controller, just doesn't have the two signals
required to do the job or the logic either.
There is a third type, of actuator, SSB 61. This is a 0-10v control
type and is able to achieve much greater accuracy because there is
electronics in the valve head able to monitor the valve position.
I'm using a Sauter equivalent of this product in place of TRV heads.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
>IMM <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>> They are 230v electic actuators have a look:
>>>> http://www.landisstaefa.com/opc_e/catalog/cat_content.asp?
>>>
>>> Or try this:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/ypjw7
>>
>> The Landis & Staefa REV 300, this will modulate a valve. This is a
>> class act...
>>
>>>>>
>> ? 215,00
>> CE1N2213
>>
>>
>> This also modulates a valve too
>>
>>>>>>
>> REV33 ? 181,00 CE1N2267
>>
>
>
>This thread has rather lost its way - and has unfortunately degenerated into
>a another slanging match between IMM and Andy - even including the merits or
>otherwise of keeping snakes!
That was an illustration of proportional and switched control systems
(at the start at least).
>
>I thought that this part of the discussion was whether the CM67 could drive
>a modulating type of mixing valve in order to control the output temperature
>of the mixed water.
It was.
>Since the CM67's only interface to the outside world is
>an on/off switch, it quite clearly can't provide closed-loop control of
>anything which needs to be driven to any one of a virtually infinite number
>of positions.
Not with that cycle time at least. It is possible to control things
in a pseudo-analogue fashion with a much shorter cycle time - e.g.
model control servos.
>
>From my experience, controlling mixed temperature with such a
>valve actually requires two control loops - one inside the other. The outer
>one monitors temperature, and outputs a position demand to the inner one.
>The inner one monitors position, and drives the valve to the position
>demanded by the outer loop.
>
>Some of the kit cited by IMM can probably do this - but only by virtue of
>it's own controllers - so it is not relevant in the context of the CM67
>discussion.
The L&S switched stuff is still largely open loop and will require
regular resets by the controller so that the controller's idea of
position will match the real one. Crude but effective to a point.
Andy Hall
>
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>>
>> There is no specific definition in control terms. If somehting goes
>> on and off and can be varied, it's a pulse.
>
>That is switched. A big difference.
Nope.
>
>>
>> Not to me it didn't. To me it was clear that a controller with a
>> cycle time of 5 minutes or more is not going to be able to control a
>> modulating device.
>
>If it is switched off it can
Nope. You need either two signals driving a motor one way or the
other, or a short cycle time pulse controlling some electronics hooked
up to the motor.
>
>>
>> So where is the make and part number of the modulating actuators that
>> you claim to have?
>
>Why? Why are you so concerned what is in a cupboard? Some are Satchwell,
>some are L&G
In a form that could be controlled by a single output pulse switch
controller like a CM67 they don't exist......
>
>That snake has gone to his head.
>
>< snip drivel >
>
That's your quaternary response.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> The L&S switched stuff is still largely open loop and will require
> regular resets by the controller so that the controller's idea of
> position will match the real one. Crude but effective to a point.
No open loop. You are on about simulated proportional feedback, but it was
obvious you knew that.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:16:12 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
> >"IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote in message
> >news:c0avjb$205$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >> "Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >> news:ibth20hougnknvm7i...@4ax.com...
> >
> >> They are 230v electic actuators have a look:
> >> http://www.landisstaefa.com/opc_e/catalog/cat_content.asp?
> >
> >Or try this:
> >http://tinyurl.com/ypjw7
> This is *precisely* the point that I made in earlier posts in this
> thread.
>
> The SSB31... and SSB81.. valves are 3 position types which can be
> controlled with an on/off signal.
>
> You apply a voltage (24 or 240v depending on model) between Y1 or Y2
> and neutral and it will drive the actuator towards one end of travel
> or the other.
Er no. You take away the power and it says at the position it was when
power was taken away (de-energised)
> The controller to use this (e.g. REV300) relies on the end to end
> travel time being 150 seconds and the controller times the length of
> the on signal to adjust the valve. This is actually a really poor
> method of control because the controller has no absolute way of
> knowing the valve position and has to periodically drive it to and end
> point to calibrate it.
That is true, but they are accurate enough once settled. That is why there
is a 0-10v (simulated proportional feedback) version, so the controller
knows exactly where the valve is.
> The CM67 type of controller, just doesn't have the two signals
> required to do the job or the logic either.
It appears to have two coming out of it in some diagrams, but on read some
more in depth data it will not modulate a valve. That is why L&S stuff is
much superior.
> There is a third type, of actuator, SSB 61. This is a 0-10v control
> type and is able to achieve much greater accuracy because there is
> electronics in the valve head able to monitor the valve position.
> I'm using a Sauter equivalent of this product in place of TRV heads.
A waste of time now, now the cm67z is here.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:03:36 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>
> >>
> >> There is no specific definition in control terms. If somehting goes
> >> on and off and can be varied, it's a pulse.
> >
> >That is switched. A big difference.
>
> Nope.
>
>
> >
>
> >>
> >> Not to me it didn't. To me it was clear that a controller with a
> >> cycle time of 5 minutes or more is not going to be able to control a
> >> modulating device.
> >
> >If it is switched off it can
>
> Nope. You need either two signals driving a motor one way or the
> other, or a short cycle time pulse controlling some electronics hooked
> up to the motor.
>
> >
>
> >>
> >> So where is the make and part number of the modulating actuators that
> >> you claim to have?
> >
> >Why? Why are you so concerned what is in a cupboard? Some are
Satchwell,
> >some are L&G
>
> In a form that could be controlled by a single output pulse switch
> controller like a CM67 they don't exist......
The cm67 can't modulate, tat is why it is best to go for a good L&S model
that can and have finite temp control.
> >That snake has gone to his head.
> >
> >< snip drivel >
> >
> That's your quaternary response.
All snakes should be killed, especially the poisonous ones.
Andy Hall
It is open loop between the controller and the actuator because there
is no direct feedback of the valve position to the controller. The
only feedback is the outer control loop which is the temperature of
the controlled environment. That has a much longer time constant
than the operating time of the actuator
Andy Hall
>
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:5moi209u39l8p954i...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:16:12 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
>> >"IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote in message
>> >news:c0avjb$205$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> >> "Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>> >> news:ibth20hougnknvm7i...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >> They are 230v electic actuators have a look:
>> >> http://www.landisstaefa.com/opc_e/catalog/cat_content.asp?
>> >
>> >Or try this:
>> >http://tinyurl.com/ypjw7
>
>> This is *precisely* the point that I made in earlier posts in this
>> thread.
>>
>> The SSB31... and SSB81.. valves are 3 position types which can be
>> controlled with an on/off signal.
>>
>> You apply a voltage (24 or 240v depending on model) between Y1 or Y2
>> and neutral and it will drive the actuator towards one end of travel
>> or the other.
>
>Er no. You take away the power and it says at the position it was when
>power was taken away (de-energised)
>
It is pretty obvious that the damn thing will stop when the power is
removed because it has only three wires and no separate source of
power.
>> The controller to use this (e.g. REV300) relies on the end to end
>> travel time being 150 seconds and the controller times the length of
>> the on signal to adjust the valve. This is actually a really poor
>> method of control because the controller has no absolute way of
>> knowing the valve position and has to periodically drive it to and end
>> point to calibrate it.
>
>That is true, but they are accurate enough once settled. That is why there
>is a 0-10v (simulated proportional feedback) version, so the controller
>knows exactly where the valve is.
Nope. The (temperature) controller does not know where the valve is
directly at all. There is separate motor control electronics in the
valve head, and that has feedback locally about the motor position.
The effect of this is that the actuator position is more accurately
repeatable from an applied voltage on the control input but there is
still no direct feedback regarding the motor position to the
temperature controller. However the arrangement is much more
accurate than one with simple on/off/reverse control which relies on
the assuming speed of movement of the actuator
>
>> The CM67 type of controller, just doesn't have the two signals
>> required to do the job or the logic either.
>
>It appears to have two coming out of it in some diagrams, but on read some
>more in depth data it will not modulate a valve.
Which is what I said in the first place.
>That is why L&S stuff is
>much superior.
>
>> There is a third type, of actuator, SSB 61. This is a 0-10v control
>> type and is able to achieve much greater accuracy because there is
>> electronics in the valve head able to monitor the valve position.
>> I'm using a Sauter equivalent of this product in place of TRV heads.
>
> A waste of time now, now the cm67z is here.
>
Not at all. This is but one componen. I'm already doing what this
system does and more.
Each room has temperature sensing leading to a central control system
and then there is individual control to each radiator valve.
The CM67z system is interesting, but each controller only manages two
zones so it is going to get expensive to implement.
Since each TRV requires 2xAA batteries (not a lot of power available)
it is going to keep Duracell sales quite buoyant....
Andy Hall
>
>
>
>The cm67 can't modulate, tat is why it is best to go for a good L&S model
>that can and have finite temp control.
Which is what I said in the first place.
>
>> >That snake has gone to his head.
>> >
>> >< snip drivel >
>> >
>> That's your quaternary response.
>
>All snakes should be killed, especially the poisonous ones.
>
Now you're just getting silly and emotional. :-)
Andy Hall
The Hometronic system itself isn't new and has been around in Germany
for a number of years, where it is quite suited to apartment
installations. The earlier version of the radiator valve was RF
controlled as well but AFAICR did not have transmission capability to
a boiler interlock device.
The CF67z is new, although one point to realise is that it will only
cover two zones to a set point. Each HR80 can be set in itself but
then that is not under CM67z control. The data sheet leaves that bit
out.
Also, since each HR80 uses 2 x AAA batteries, it is going to make
Duracell shareholders very happy. :-)
Some interesting ideas though
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:23:15 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >news:5bpi20tqafstsi3kd...@4ax.com...
> >
> >> The L&S switched stuff is still largely open loop and will require
> >> regular resets by the controller so that the controller's idea of
> >> position will match the real one. Crude but effective to a point.
> >
> >No open loop. You are on about simulated proportional feedback, but it
was
> >
> It is open loop between the controller and the actuator because there
> is no direct feedback of the valve position to the controller. The
> only feedback is the outer control loop which is the temperature of
> the controlled environment. That has a much longer time constant
> than the operating time of the actuator
A 0-10v simulated proportional feedback conbtroller has to guess to some
degree. The word simulated gives it away.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
A controller acting on a 3 position actuator would pulse it one way or the
other (a pulse to not 6 minutes as you mistakingly believe). In short, it
nudges the valve one way or the other to reach setpoint. Some controllers
can be used with any 3 position actuator of any make. It doesn't need to
know the speed of the actuators travel. Simulated proportional feedback are
more suited to PID controllers.
> >> There is a third type, of actuator, SSB 61. This is a 0-10v control
> >> type and is able to achieve much greater accuracy because there is
> >> electronics in the valve head able to monitor the valve position.
> >> I'm using a Sauter equivalent of this product in place of TRV heads.
> >
> > A waste of time now, now the cm67z is here.
>
> Not at all. This is but one componen. I'm
> already doing what this system does and more.
No, throw it all out and get the cm67z
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:33:26 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >The cm67 can't modulate, tat is why it is best to go for a good L&S model
> >that can and have finite temp control.
>
> Which is what I said in the first place.
You never mentioned L&S. You never knew of their controllers.
> >> >That snake has gone to his head.
> >> >
> >> >< snip drivel >
> >> >
> >> That's your quaternary response.
> >
> >All snakes should be killed, especially the poisonous ones.
> >
> Now you're just getting silly and emotional. :-)
No. Poisonous snakes are no use whatsoever and kill people.
Andy Hall
>
>
>A controller acting on a 3 position actuator would pulse it one way or the
>other (a pulse to not 6 minutes as you mistakingly believe).
I didn't believe that at all, you did.
> In short, it
>nudges the valve one way or the other to reach setpoint. Some controllers
>can be used with any 3 position actuator of any make. It doesn't need to
>know the speed of the actuators travel.
The L&S one certainly does, and any controller working in this way
will need to know the speed of travel at least approximately, or as a
loop there would be far too much or far too little gain.
The data sheet for the L&S controller certainly refers to a range of
speeds of actuator
>Simulated proportional feedback are
>more suited to PID controllers.
>
>> >> There is a third type, of actuator, SSB 61. This is a 0-10v control
>> >> type and is able to achieve much greater accuracy because there is
>> >> electronics in the valve head able to monitor the valve position.
>> >> I'm using a Sauter equivalent of this product in place of TRV heads.
>> >
>> > A waste of time now, now the cm67z is here.
>>
>> Not at all. This is but one componen. I'm
>> already doing what this system does and more.
>
>No, throw it all out and get the cm67z
I don't think so. I am doing some far better things and have some
original ideas that I'm working on. I won't discuss them here
though..
Andy Hall
>
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:qk9j20he6ojpee3q5...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:23:15 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>> >news:5bpi20tqafstsi3kd...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >> The L&S switched stuff is still largely open loop and will require
>> >> regular resets by the controller so that the controller's idea of
>> >> position will match the real one. Crude but effective to a point.
>> >
>> >No open loop. You are on about simulated proportional feedback, but it
>was
>> >obvious you didn't know that.
>> >
>> It is open loop between the controller and the actuator because there
>> is no direct feedback of the valve position to the controller. The
>> only feedback is the outer control loop which is the temperature of
>> the controlled environment. That has a much longer time constant
>> than the operating time of the actuator
>
>A 0-10v simulated proportional feedback conbtroller has to guess to some
>degree. The word simulated gives it away.
>
Of course, but because there is local position detection at the valve,
the result is more accurate and the system loop behaviour much more
predictable.
Andy Hall
>
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:1bbj20pr40ch3a7h4...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:33:26 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >The cm67 can't modulate, tat is why it is best to go for a good L&S model
>> >that can and have finite temp control.
>>
>> Which is what I said in the first place.
>
>You never mentioned L&S. You never knew of their controllers.
L&S was never the subject of the thread. You introduced it because
you had painted yourself into a corner with respect to the CM67.
>
>> >> >That snake has gone to his head.
>> >> >
>> >> >< snip drivel >
>> >> >
>> >> That's your quaternary response.
>> >
>> >All snakes should be killed, especially the poisonous ones.
>> >
>> Now you're just getting silly and emotional. :-)
>
>No. Poisonous snakes are no use whatsoever and kill people.
>
Who said anything about poisonous? The vast majority are not, and
even those that are are seldom aggressive towards humans.
Of course if you're a rodent, then that's a different matter, whether
you can tango or not...... cha cha cha doesn't help either.. ;-)
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
A decent "well adjusted" controller on a 3 position valve gives the same
accuracy.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:27:32 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >A controller acting on a 3 position actuator would pulse it one way or
the
> >other (a pulse to not 6 minutes as you mistakingly believe).
>
> I didn't believe that at all, you did.
You said a pulse can be minutes long. Duh!
> > In short, it
> >nudges the valve one way or the other to reach setpoint. Some
controllers
> >can be used with any 3 position actuator of any make. It doesn't need to
> >know the speed of the actuators travel.
>
> The L&S one certainly does, and any controller working in this way
> will need to know the speed of travel at least approximately, or as a
> loop there would be far too much or far too little gain.
I'll let you into a secret. These controllers have adjustments on them.
> >Simulated proportional feedback are
> >more suited to PID controllers.
> >
> >> >> There is a third type, of actuator, SSB 61. This is a 0-10v
control
> >> >> type and is able to achieve much greater accuracy because there is
> >> >> electronics in the valve head able to monitor the valve position.
> >> >> I'm using a Sauter equivalent of this product in place of TRV heads.
> >> >
> >> > A waste of time now, now the cm67z is here.
> >>
> >> Not at all. This is but one componen. I'm
> >> already doing what this system does and more.
> >
> >No, throw it all out and get the cm67z
>
> I don't think so. I am doing some far better things and have some
> original ideas that I'm working on. I won't discuss them here
> though..
No. You will F**k it up. Throw it all out and get a ready made solution.
Stop trying to be a controls engineer, when you clearly have missed the
basics.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:29:08 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >news:1bbj20pr40ch3a7h4...@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:33:26 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >The cm67 can't modulate, tat is why it is best to go for a good L&S
model
> >> >that can and have finite temp control.
> >>
> >> Which is what I said in the first place.
> >
> >You never mentioned L&S. You never knew of their controllers.
>
> L&S was never the subject of the thread. You introduced it because
> you had painted yourself into a corner with respect to the CM67.
The thread had moved to finer temp control via modulation. Better choice is
a heat bank, using a cheap simple condensing boiler and a 3-way mixing valve
from a L&S controller for the heating off the heat bank.
> >> >> >That snake has gone to his head.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >< snip drivel >
> >> >> >
> >> >> That's your quaternary response.
> >> >
> >> >All snakes should be killed, especially the poisonous ones.
> >> >
> >> Now you're just getting silly and emotional. :-)
> >
> >No. Poisonous snakes are no use whatsoever and kill people.
>
> Who said anything about poisonous? The vast majority are not, and
> even those that are are seldom aggressive towards humans.
Do you feed this reptile live mammals?
Neil Jones
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message > The Hometronic system
itself isn't new and has been around in Germany
> for a number of years, where it is quite suited to apartment
> installations. The earlier version of the radiator valve was RF
> controlled as well but AFAICR did not have transmission capability to
> a boiler interlock device.
>
> The CF67z is new, although one point to realise is that it will only
> cover two zones to a set point. Each HR80 can be set in itself but
> then that is not under CM67z control. The data sheet leaves that bit
> out.
>
> Also, since each HR80 uses 2 x AAA batteries, it is going to make
> Duracell shareholders very happy. :-)
>
> Some interesting ideas though
I looked at Hometronic last year but I think it's far too expensive for
what it is.
I'm vaguely interested in the new solution, but only if it's comparable
in price with a normal CM67 + TRV solution. If it's a lot more, I'd be
more interested in getting a solution with a bit more intelligence which
could be integrated into a whole house system.
Neil
Andy Hall
>> >
>> Of course, but because there is local position detection at the valve,
>> the result is more accurate and the system loop behaviour much more
>> predictable.
>
>A decent "well adjusted" controller on a 3 position valve gives the same
>accuracy.
>
That's not possible. There is no position detection, apart from
driving the thing periodically to the end stop and timing from there.
DC controlled actuators have servo electronics in the head with
position detection based on a stepper motor. That is inherently a
lot more accurate than something run end to end with on/off control.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:46:29 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
>
> >> >
> >> Of course, but because there is local position detection at the valve,
> >> the result is more accurate and the system loop behaviour much more
> >> predictable.
> >
> >A decent "well adjusted" controller on a 3 position valve gives the same
> >accuracy.
> >
> That's not possible. There is no position detection,
Doesn't need it.
> apart from driving the thing periodically to
> the end stop and timing from there.
It doesn't time it. The proportional side is in control until it is inside
the proportional band and when it settles inside the band the Integral
pulses it to set point. I have had "highly accurate " control with simple
controllers and actuators.
> DC controlled actuators have servo electronics in the head with
> position detection based on a stepper motor. That is inherently a
> lot more accurate than something run end to end with on/off control.
Not necessarily, but generally I prefer this method.
Andy Hall
>
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:8luj20hth1rlc56ti...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:27:32 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >A controller acting on a 3 position actuator would pulse it one way or
>the
>> >other (a pulse to not 6 minutes as you mistakingly believe).
>>
>> I didn't believe that at all, you did.
>
>You said a pulse can be minutes long. Duh!
It can. It can be days or even months. The only criterion is that
it goes on and off.
>
>> > In short, it
>> >nudges the valve one way or the other to reach setpoint. Some
>controllers
>> >can be used with any 3 position actuator of any make. It doesn't need to
>> >know the speed of the actuators travel.
>>
>> The L&S one certainly does, and any controller working in this way
>> will need to know the speed of travel at least approximately, or as a
>> loop there would be far too much or far too little gain.
>
>I'll let you into a secret. These controllers have adjustments on them.
Some fairly crude ones, and I can read at least as well as you can,
the difference being that I understand what I read.....
>
>> >Simulated proportional feedback are
>> >more suited to PID controllers.
>> >
>> >> >> There is a third type, of actuator, SSB 61. This is a 0-10v
>control
>> >> >> type and is able to achieve much greater accuracy because there is
>> >> >> electronics in the valve head able to monitor the valve position.
>> >> >> I'm using a Sauter equivalent of this product in place of TRV heads.
>> >> >
>> >> > A waste of time now, now the cm67z is here.
>> >>
>> >> Not at all. This is but one componen. I'm
>> >> already doing what this system does and more.
>> >
>> >No, throw it all out and get the cm67z
>>
>> I don't think so. I am doing some far better things and have some
>> original ideas that I'm working on. I won't discuss them here
>> though..
>
>No. You will F**k it up.
I don't think so. Already working and there are some interesting
ideas which are commercially exploitable so I won't be discussing them
here as I said.
>Stop trying to be a controls engineer, when you clearly have missed the
>basics.
>
I don't need to try to be anything. I designed control systems as
an honours degree project and subsequently commercially for various
industries for more than 10 years after that.
IMM
"Neil Jones" <ne...@the-joneses.org.uk> wrote in message
news:c0d1pb$156r2h$1...@ID-215588.news.uni-berlin.de...
A real cheap solutions is to create a manifold and have all the rads flows
off this. Each rad has a 2-port zone valve (cheap at £12 at BES) and each
rad hasn electronic wall stat.
Andy Hall
>
>> >> >
>> >> >The cm67 can't modulate, tat is why it is best to go for a good L&S
>model
>> >> >that can and have finite temp control.
>> >>
>> >> Which is what I said in the first place.
>> >
>> >You never mentioned L&S. You never knew of their controllers.
>>
>> L&S was never the subject of the thread. You introduced it because
>> you had painted yourself into a corner with respect to the CM67.
>
>The thread had moved to finer temp control via modulation. Better choice is
>a heat bank, using a cheap simple condensing boiler and a 3-way mixing valve
>from a L&S controller for the heating off the heat bank.
>
You moved it to that discussion because you got out of your depth with
respect to the CM67 by trying to be clever and falling on your face.
You then proceeded o compound the issue by using your normal tactics.
Actually the discussion about snakes is quite apropos. They slither
around as well.
>> >> >> >That snake has gone to his head.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >< snip drivel >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> That's your quaternary response.
>> >> >
>> >> >All snakes should be killed, especially the poisonous ones.
>> >> >
>> >> Now you're just getting silly and emotional. :-)
>> >
>> >No. Poisonous snakes are no use whatsoever and kill people.
>>
>> Who said anything about poisonous? The vast majority are not, and
>> even those that are are seldom aggressive towards humans.
>
>Do you feed this reptile live mammals?
>
Nope and there are two.
Neil Jones
>
>
> A real cheap solutions is to create a manifold and have all the rads
flows
> off this. Each rad has a 2-port zone valve (cheap at Ł12 at BES) and
each
> rad hasn electronic wall stat.
This only goes half way, though. With a simple wall stat I can't say
that I want my bedroom at 18C between 10pm and 11pm, and 20C between 6am
and 8am, and that I don't care what happens in between as long as it
doesn't go below 5C.
Andy Hall
Quite. I would be surprised if the valves are south of £100 a go.
I've been developing a system which includes this type of
functionality plus a great deal more. There are some commercially
exploitable aspects, so I don't want to expand on the details as yet.
IMM
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:50:15 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >news:8luj20hth1rlc56ti...@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:27:32 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
> >> >A controller acting on a 3 position actuator would pulse it one way or
> >the
> >> >other (a pulse to not 6 minutes as you mistakingly believe).
> >>
> >> I didn't believe that at all, you did.
> >
> >You said a pulse can be minutes long. Duh!
>
> It can. It can be days or even months. The only criterion is that
> it goes on and off.
>
> >
> >> > In short, it
> >> >nudges the valve one way or the other to reach setpoint. Some
> >controllers
> >> >can be used with any 3 position actuator of any make. It doesn't need
to
> >> >know the speed of the actuators travel.
> >>
> >> The L&S one certainly does, and any controller working in this way
> >> will need to know the speed of travel at least approximately, or as a
> >> loop there would be far too much or far too little gain.
> >
> >I'll let you into a secret. These controllers have adjustments on them.
>
> Some fairly crude ones,
Not so.
> and I can read at least as well as you can,
But you have absolutely no experience whatsoever of them.
> the difference being that I understand what I read.....
Not so.
> >> >Simulated proportional feedback are
> >> >more suited to PID controllers.
> >> >
> >> >> >> There is a third type, of actuator, SSB 61. This is a 0-10v
> >control
> >> >> >> type and is able to achieve much greater accuracy because there
is
> >> >> >> electronics in the valve head able to monitor the valve position.
> >> >> >> I'm using a Sauter equivalent of this product in place of TRV
heads.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A waste of time now, now the cm67z is here.
> >> >>
> >> >> Not at all. This is but one componen. I'm
> >> >> already doing what this system does and more.
> >> >
> >> >No, throw it all out and get the cm67z
> >>
> >> I don't think so. I am doing some far better things and have some
> >> original ideas that I'm working on. I won't discuss them here
> >> though..
> >
> >No. You will F**k it up.
>
> I don't think so. Already working and there are some interesting
> ideas which are commercially exploitable so I won't be discussing them
> here as I said.
Such as what? Electric valves on a rad with a central controller? Not new
at all. The Honeywell RF system is the best in principle as there is no
wiring. Or are you going to sell snake controllers?
> >Stop trying to be a controls engineer, when you clearly have missed the
> >basics.
> >
> I don't need to try to be anything.
> I designed control systems as
> an honours degree project
This have moved on since then and you are clearly way behind.
> and subsequently
> commercially for various
> industries for more than 10 years after that.
Who?
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
> >The thread had moved to finer temp control via modulation. Better choice
is
> >a heat bank, using a cheap simple condensing boiler and a 3-way mixing
valve
> >from a L&S controller for the heating off the heat bank.
>
> You moved it to that discussion because you got out of your depth with
> respect to the CM67 by trying to be clever and falling on your face.
> You then proceeded o compound the issue by using your normal tactics.
Andy you are clearly bitter and twisted. You never thought of this
brilliant simple method
> Actually the discussion about snakes is quite apropos. They slither
> around as well.
Andy, you being a snake aficionado will know about slithering from close
quarters.
IMM
>
> "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote in message
> news:c0d2fh$mlr$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
>
> >
> > A real cheap solutions is to create a
> > manifold and have all the rads
> > flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
> > each rad has an electronic wall stat.
>
> This only goes half way, though. With
> a simple wall stat I can't say
> that I want my bedroom at 18C between
> 10pm and 11pm, and 20C between 6am
> and 8am, and that I don't care what happens
> in between as long as it
> doesn't go below 5C.
Then replace the simple wall stat with a wall stat/programmer. Some of
these are now quite cheap and well specced. So, one single channel timer
for the DHW and only wall stat/programmers. But I would have a single
channel timer on the CH to make sure all the CH off, a master controller.
This could be programmed to be on for a few hours a day when on hols. For
frost protection, you could have a switch that only allows the hall
stat/programmer to operate and all zone valves are powered full open
bypassing the room stat/programmers.
This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution for a new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the existing
pipes.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
Just give us the functionality, not the details. I'm certain it has already
been thought of.
Neil Jones
OK, so I've got £23 for the zone valve and £30 for the programmable
stat, per room. Plus wiring to supply each stat, and replumbing, and
redecorating. I don't think your suggested system is realistic as a
retrofit, in my situation, at least.
All of a sudden, Andy's suggested £100 per HR80 looks rather more
reasonable (purchase of shares in Duracell notwithstanding)...
Neil
IMM
They are available for far less than that.
> Plus wiring to supply each stat, and replumbing, and
> redecorating. I don't think your suggested system is realistic as a
> retrofit, in my situation, at least.
That is what I pointed out. If renovating then this is a good solution.
Neil Jones
Are they?
>
> > Plus wiring to supply each stat, and replumbing, and
> > redecorating. I don't think your suggested system is realistic as a
> > retrofit, in my situation, at least.
>
> That is what I pointed out. If renovating then this is a good
solution.
>
No, what you actually said was "A real cheap solutions is to create a
manifold and have all the rads flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
zone valve (cheap at £12 at BES) and each rad hasn electronic wall
stat."
It was once I started to look into your suggestion that you added the
caveats that meant it wasn't a solution at all, nor was it "real cheap".
Neil
IMM
I have seen them around for £20-25. Screwfix do one for £25, not sure if
the spec fits your needs though.
> > > Plus wiring to supply each stat, and replumbing, and
> > > redecorating. I don't think your suggested system is realistic as a
> > > retrofit, in my situation, at least.
> >
> > That is what I pointed out. If renovating then this is a good
> solution.
> >
> No, what you actually said was "A real cheap solutions is to create a
> manifold and have all the rads flows off this. Each rad has a 2-port
> zone valve (cheap at £21 at BES) and each rad hasn electronic wall
> stat."
What I also said was:
"This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution for a new
installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any heating
engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert the existing
pipes."
> It was once I started to look into your suggestion that you added the
> caveats that meant it wasn't a solution at all, nor was it "real cheap".
What do you mean it is not a solution? What do understand by "solution"?
Cheap? At max £50 per room (£24.68 per zone valve: £25 for stat = less than
£50). If ordering 10 of each you may get a discount. Compare that to the
Honeywell RF method.
As I said..."This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective solution
Neil Jones
You said this after I pointed out your 'solution' wasn't going to fly,
so you modified it to use programmable stats instead of ordinary
bimetallic ones.
>
> > It was once I started to look into your suggestion that you added
the
> > caveats that meant it wasn't a solution at all, nor was it "real
cheap".
>
> What do you mean it is not a solution? What do understand by >
"solution"?
YOu haven't even found out what I want to achieve - how can you know if
it is a solution or not?
> Cheap? At max £50 per room (£24.68 per zone valve: £25 for stat = less
than
> £50). If ordering 10 of each you may get a discount. Compare that to
the
> Honeywell RF method.
I have 11 radiators. According to you, £550 is cheap?
Plus wiring, plus plumbing, plus redecoration. All these are cheap too,
are they?
>
> As I said..."This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective
solution
> for a new installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any
> heating engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert
the
> existing pipes."
>
>
You said this after I had pointed out that your original 'solution' was
a non starter.
Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions' when
you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.
Neil
IMM
You must follow the thread, you were apart of it. I suggested "electronic"
stats BTW, then with your response stat/programmers.
> >> > > It was once I started to look into your suggestion that you added
> the
> > > caveats that meant it wasn't a solution at all, nor was it "real
> cheap".
> >
> > What do you mean it is not a solution? What do understand by >
> "solution"?
>
> YOu haven't even found out what I want to achieve - how can you know if
> it is a solution or not?
You were on about individual control of each room if I recall rightly. If
you want individual control of each room in temperature and time, and temps
at set patterns over a day, then this is very cheap solution. VERY CHEAP!
> > Cheap? At max £50 per room (£24.68 per zone valve: £25 for stat = less
> than
> > £50). If ordering 10 of each you may get a discount. Compare that to
> the
> > Honeywell RF method.
>
> I have 11 radiators. According to you, £550 is cheap?
For that solution? with functionality? buttons!
> Plus wiring, plus plumbing, plus redecoration. All these are cheap too,
> are they?
You must focus. I clearly made the distinction new build/renovation and
existing.
> > As I said..."This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective
> solution
> > for a new installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that any
> > heating engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to re-divert
> the
> > existing pipes."
>
> You said this after I had pointed out that your original 'solution' was
> a non starter.
It was a starter, then you said you wanted time control and different temp
throughout the day for individual rooms. What do you want? Me to pay for a
CM67z system for you and fit it over the weekend too? My God!
What an ungrateful sod!
> Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions' when
> you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.
What is your problem? The technical one, it is clear you have a personal
one.
Neil Jones
>
> "Neil Jones" <ne...@the-joneses.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:c0de0a$151ji9$1...@ID-215588.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
fly,
> > so you modified it to use programmable stats instead of ordinary
> > bimetallic ones.
>
> You must follow the thread, you were apart of it. I suggested
"electronic"
> stats BTW, then with your response stat/programmers.
My mistake. Are electronic room stats cheaper than bimetallic ones?
>
> > >> > > It was once I started to look into your suggestion that you
added
> > the
> > > > caveats that meant it wasn't a solution at all, nor was it "real
> > cheap".
> > >
> > > What do you mean it is not a solution? What do understand by >
> > "solution"?
> >
> > YOu haven't even found out what I want to achieve - how can you know
if
> > it is a solution or not?
>
> You were on about individual control of each room if I recall rightly.
If
> you want individual control of each room in temperature and time, and
temps
> at set patterns over a day, then this is very cheap solution. VERY
CHEAP!
Your "real cheap solution" didn't do this. Ergo it wasn't a solution.
>
> > > Cheap? At max £50 per room (£24.68 per zone valve: £25 for stat =
less
> > than
> > > £50). If ordering 10 of each you may get a discount. Compare
that to
> > the
> > > Honeywell RF method.
> >
> > I have 11 radiators. According to you, £550 is cheap?
>
> For that solution? with functionality? buttons!
>
> > Plus wiring, plus plumbing, plus redecoration. All these are cheap
too,
> > are they?
>
> You must focus. I clearly made the distinction new build/renovation
and
> existing.
Which is relevent to me how, excatly? Am I buliding a new house or
renovating?
>
> > > As I said..."This is a good, relatively simple, and very effective
> > solution
> > > for a new installation, using ready made off-the-shelf parts, that
any
> > > heating engineer can understand, but may be disruptive to
re-divert
> > the
> > > existing pipes."
> >
> > You said this after I had pointed out that your original 'solution'
was
> > a non starter.
>
> It was a starter, then you said you wanted time control and different
temp
> throughout the day for individual rooms. What do you want?
This is a good start - ask me what I want first, before suggesting a
'solution'. I am glad you have learned something today.
> Me to pay for a
> CM67z system for you and fit it over the weekend too? My God!
>
> What an ungrateful sod!
Not at all.
>
> > Your problem, if I may be so bold, is that you propose 'solutions'
when
> > you haven't taken the trouble to identify the problem.
>
> What is your problem? The technical one, it is clear you have a
personal
> one.
>
I have gas fired central heating with a non-modulating conventional cast
iron boiler which is rated at about double the worst-case heat loss for
the house. I have a programmable room stat, with TRVs on 10 radiators
and one bypass.
How much would it cost to add individual time/temp control to the system
with a view to increasing efficiency without the disruption of moving or
reconfiguring pipework?
If you recall, I mentioned that I had been looking at the CM67z and HR80
solution yesterday becasue it appeared to do what I wanted, although at
the price indicated I would want more - interfaces to house control
system, that kind of thing.
Neil
Set Square
Neil Jones <ne...@the-joneses.org.uk> wrote:
>
> I have gas fired central heating with a non-modulating conventional
> cast iron boiler which is rated at about double the worst-case heat
> loss for the house. I have a programmable room stat, with TRVs on 10
> radiators and one bypass.
>
> How much would it cost to add individual time/temp control to the
> system with a view to increasing efficiency without the disruption of
> moving or reconfiguring pipework?
>
> If you recall, I mentioned that I had been looking at the CM67z and
> HR80 solution yesterday becasue it appeared to do what I wanted,
> although at the price indicated I would want more - interfaces to
> house control system, that kind of thing.
>
> Neil
Hi Neil,
The CM67z sounds interesting to me as a way of retrofitting some measure of
individual room control to an existing system without a lot of plumbing and
wiring changes. The main drawback seems to me (apart from the batteries!) to
be the fact that each CM67z only controls 2 zones. So if you have (say) 10
rooms, and want each room to do something different by way of temperature
profile, you need 5 CM67z's - which could get a bit expensive.
I think that if I were to upgrade my system - which is similar to yours
except that I haven't got any TRVs - I would probably fit a 2-port zone
valve in the feed to each rad, and have each of these controlled by a
programmable room stat. [Ok, I would need 10 stats, but they could be a lot
less exotic than a CM67z]. Installing zone valves would not necessitate
converting to a manifold system (contrary to IMM's inference) as long as you
can get at the feed pipe to each rad in some suitable location. Bringing
them all together in a central point would simplify wiring up all the
volt-free contacts on the zone valves to control the boiler - but is by no
means essential. In my case, at any rate, all the zone valves could be under
the upstairs floorboards, and the only exposed wiring would be that going to
each room stat - which I would cover with small section white square
trunking until the room is next decorated, when I would chase it into the
plaster.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is Black Hole!
Andy Hall
>
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:uc2k20950bc0ovqsa...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:46:29 -0000, "IMM" <abus...@easy.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> >
>> >> Of course, but because there is local position detection at the valve,
>> >> the result is more accurate and the system loop behaviour much more
>> >> predictable.
>> >
>> >A decent "well adjusted" controller on a 3 position valve gives the same
>> >accuracy.
>> >
>> That's not possible. There is no position detection,
>
>Doesn't need it.
Then it won't be as accurate.
>
>> apart from driving the thing periodically to
>> the end stop and timing from there.
>
>It doesn't time it. The proportional side is in control until it is inside
>the proportional band and when it settles inside the band the Integral
>pulses it to set point. I have had "highly accurate " control with simple
>controllers and actuators.
Glad you put that in double quotes.
>
>> DC controlled actuators have servo electronics in the head with
>> position detection based on a stepper motor. That is inherently a
>> lot more accurate than something run end to end with on/off control.
>
>Not necessarily, but generally I prefer this method.
>
I can understand that.
Andy Hall
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:tu2k20hkq7nlb3ihs...@4ax.com...
>> >>
>> >> The L&S one certainly does, and any controller working in this way
>> >> will need to know the speed of travel at least approximately, or as a
>> >> loop there would be far too much or far too little gain.
>> >
>> >I'll let you into a secret. These controllers have adjustments on them.
>>
>> Some fairly crude ones,
>
>Not so.
From the data sheet, the adjustments are quite crude in their effect
simply because the device being controlled is crude in nature.
>>
>> I don't think so. Already working and there are some interesting
>> ideas which are commercially exploitable so I won't be discussing them
>> here as I said.
>
>Such as what? Electric valves on a rad with a central controller? Not new
>at all. The Honeywell RF system is the best in principle as there is no
>wiring.
As I said, there are some commercially exploitable things in what I'm
doing, so I won't be going into detail
>
>> >Stop trying to be a controls engineer, when you clearly have missed the
>> >basics.
>> >
>> I don't need to try to be anything.
>> I designed control systems as
>> an honours degree project
>
>This have moved on since then and you are clearly way behind.
Basic principles of control mathematics don't change. Their practical
application certainly does and I have some interesting new concepts
that I am developing.
>
>> and subsequently
>> commercially for various
>> industries for more than 10 years after that.
>
>Who?
>
I wouldn't reveal information like that any more than you would.
Andy Hall
>
>"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
>news:o93k2017g67c2ippt...@4ax.com...
>
>> >The thread had moved to finer temp control via modulation. Better choice
>is
>> >a heat bank, using a cheap simple condensing boiler and a 3-way mixing
>valve
>> >from a L&S controller for the heating off the heat bank.
>>
>> You moved it to that discussion because you got out of your depth with
>> respect to the CM67 by trying to be clever and falling on your face.
>> You then proceeded o compound the issue by using your normal tactics.
>
>Andy you are clearly bitter and twisted. You never thought of this
>brilliant simple method
>
Far from it. This is such an old and outdated way of controlling
actuators that I am surprised that there are still products on the
market using it.