sinking plug sockets into walls...

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Thomarse

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Jun 5, 2007, 9:02:21 AM6/5/07
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Hi,

I have some plug sockets in my bedroom which are the external box
type, just screwed to the wall. I am currently decorating the room and
want to get these sunk into the walls so they are a little neater.

I have done this before, with a hammer and chisel, but the results
werent great as the back edge of the hole i created wasnt very flat
and so was hard to drill into and screw the metal insert to.

I know you can buy guides from B&Q etc that you place on the wall and
drill a series of holes which you then knock out, but I wonder if
anyone has any experience of using these and whether they are any
good? Is there another method I could use to get this job done?

They are solid, brick walls, not plasterboard partitions.

Thanks

Tom

John Rumm

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Jun 5, 2007, 9:14:32 AM6/5/07
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Thomarse wrote:

> I have done this before, with a hammer and chisel, but the results
> werent great as the back edge of the hole i created wasnt very flat
> and so was hard to drill into and screw the metal insert to.

Amazing what you can fix with a bag of bonding plaster! ;-)

> I know you can buy guides from B&Q etc that you place on the wall and
> drill a series of holes which you then knock out, but I wonder if
> anyone has any experience of using these and whether they are any

Yup, tried one, but never use it... by the time you have screwed it to
the wall you have probably wasted more time than you save.

> good? Is there another method I could use to get this job done?

The way I use is to offer the box to the wall, and draw round it.

Stick a 20mm chisel bit in the SDS and mark the box depth on it. Then
run round the perimeter line sinking the chisel to the depth mark.

Swap to a 40mm chisel, start about a third of the way in from the left
and chisel in and toward the left until you have the left hand end sunk
to the right depth. Repeat for the other end, and then you can take out
the centre bit and level up the back. If your SDS has a decent speed
controller then it is easy enough to plane down the back of the cut out.

With practice you can do a box in under five mins.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

TMC

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Jun 5, 2007, 9:28:20 AM6/5/07
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"Thomarse" <thomas...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1181048541.2...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
When I did these by hand I marked around the box used a 40mm 'electricians'
chisel to cut the outside to depth or at least through the plaster. Then
used a scutch chisel to cut out the brick. The teeth on the chisel allowed
much better control and less chance of cracking the brick. 2lb lump hammer
for both chisels.

And then there was SDS

Tony


Dave Plowman (News)

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Jun 5, 2007, 9:39:20 AM6/5/07
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In article <1181048541.2...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,

Just bash the hole out as best you can and make good afterwards. It's
(nearly) impossible to make a perfect hole, so if you have to make good
anyway it's not worth the bother trying. As regards fixing to an irregular
hole whack in some one coat plaster and then the box - supporting if
needed until it goes off.

--
*60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Sam Farrell

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Jun 5, 2007, 9:55:45 AM6/5/07
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You could hire a box cutter with an SDS drill and do a proper professional ,
and quicker job. Have a look at
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/cat.jsp?cId=A237679&ts=51549 to see the
sort of tool I mean.

You cut it out with the large round attachment then square it off with the
box. For two gang you cut two holes and use a two gang box cutter to square
it off.

Sam Farrell.

Sam Farrell
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4eee35d...@davenoise.co.uk...

Thomarse

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Jun 5, 2007, 10:19:21 AM6/5/07
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On Jun 5, 2:55 pm, "Sam Farrell" <sam_farrell@nomail .com> wrote:
> You could hire a box cutter with an SDS drill and do a proper professional ,
> and quicker job. Have a look athttp://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/cat.jsp?cId=A237679&ts=51549to see the

> sort of tool I mean.
>
> You cut it out with the large round attachment then square it off with the
> box. For two gang you cut two holes and use a two gang box cutter to square
> it off.
>
> Sam Farrell.
>
> Sam Farrell
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in messagenews:4eee35d...@davenoise.co.uk...
>
>
>
> > In article <1181048541.257212.322...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,

> > Thomarse <thomastoog...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> >> I have some plug sockets in my bedroom which are the external box
> >> type, just screwed to the wall. I am currently decorating the room and
> >> want to get these sunk into the walls so they are a little neater.
>
> >> I have done this before, with a hammer and chisel, but the results
> >> werent great as the back edge of the hole i created wasnt very flat
> >> and so was hard to drill into and screw the metal insert to.
>
> >> I know you can buy guides from B&Q etc that you place on the wall and
> >> drill a series of holes which you then knock out, but I wonder if
> >> anyone has any experience of using these and whether they are any
> >> good? Is there another method I could use to get this job done?
>
> > Just bash the hole out as best you can and make good afterwards. It's
> > (nearly) impossible to make a perfect hole, so if you have to make good
> > anyway it's not worth the bother trying. As regards fixing to an irregular
> > hole whack in some one coat plaster and then the box - supporting if
> > needed until it goes off.
>
> > --
> > *60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer
>
> > Dave Plowman d...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
> > To e-mail, change noise into sound.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks guys, all sound advice,

I think in teh interests of keeping costs down, as it isnt something i
will be doing alot of in the future (I hope) I will just take a happy
medium by drawing around the box and drilling the edge with my drill
then drill the middle out in rows and chisel carefully from there...

I must admit last time in my ignorance and excitement I just started
knocking the wall with my bulky chisel... so If I managed to make that
good in the end (just) I think the hole drilling approach will be more
than adequate for me.

I do agree though, the template from B&Q that i mentioned in my
original post is a waste of time when I think about it, I can do the
same job without it.

Cheers again

Tom

Ben Blaukopf

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Jun 5, 2007, 11:19:00 AM6/5/07
to
Sam Farrell wrote:
> You could hire a box cutter with an SDS drill and do a proper professional ,
> and quicker job. Have a look at
> http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/cat.jsp?cId=A237679&ts=51549 to see the
> sort of tool I mean.
>
> You cut it out with the large round attachment then square it off with the
> box. For two gang you cut two holes and use a two gang box cutter to square
> it off.

I've been using one of thee (on loan from a friend for the last 18
months!) and it's great. BUT the main bulk of the whole is drilling out,
not chiseled out, and consequently it chucks dust everywhere.

Ben

Dave Plowman (News)

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Jun 5, 2007, 11:58:33 AM6/5/07
to
In article <BXd9i.1643$uU4...@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,

Sam Farrell <sam_farrell@nomail .com> wrote:
> You could hire a box cutter with an SDS drill and do a proper
> professional , and quicker job. Have a look at
> http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/cat.jsp?cId=A237679&ts=51549 to see
> the sort of tool I mean.

> You cut it out with the large round attachment then square it off with
> the box. For two gang you cut two holes and use a two gang box cutter to
> square it off.

They are a bit coy about the bricks it will work on without damage to it
as it's a fairly expensive item. Have you used one and found it a great
boon over an SDS and chisel?

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Harry Bloomfield

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Jun 5, 2007, 12:31:47 PM6/5/07
to
Thomarse laid this down on his screen :

> I think in teh interests of keeping costs down, as it isnt something i
> will be doing alot of in the future (I hope) I will just take a happy
> medium by drawing around the box and drilling the edge with my drill
> then drill the middle out in rows and chisel carefully from there...

> I must admit last time in my ignorance and excitement I just started
> knocking the wall with my bulky chisel... so If I managed to make that
> good in the end (just) I think the hole drilling approach will be more
> than adequate for me.

Don't be afraid to make the hole a little oversize - there is nothing
worse than the box being a perfect fit, with no room to get the plaster
down the sides because the gap is too narrow.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


Lurch

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Jun 5, 2007, 1:41:27 PM6/5/07
to
On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:58:33 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> mused:

>In article <BXd9i.1643$uU4...@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
> Sam Farrell <sam_farrell@nomail .com> wrote:
>> You could hire a box cutter with an SDS drill and do a proper
>> professional , and quicker job. Have a look at
>> http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/cat.jsp?cId=A237679&ts=51549 to see
>> the sort of tool I mean.
>
>> You cut it out with the large round attachment then square it off with
>> the box. For two gang you cut two holes and use a two gang box cutter to
>> square it off.
>
>They are a bit coy about the bricks it will work on without damage to it
>as it's a fairly expensive item. Have you used one and found it a great
>boon over an SDS and chisel?

I've got one and had all the boxes in a kitchen and dining room done
in a couple of hours, including measuring\marking out etc... The
bricks were mediumly hard. On hard bricks a combination of the box
cutter and a decent SDS chisel works, albeit a little slower.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

Brian Sharrock

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Jun 5, 2007, 2:02:33 PM6/5/07
to

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4eee429...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <BXd9i.1643$uU4...@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
> Sam Farrell <sam_farrell@nomail .com> wrote:
>> You could hire a box cutter with an SDS drill and do a proper
>> professional , and quicker job. Have a look at
>> http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/cat.jsp?cId=A237679&ts=51549 to see
>> the sort of tool I mean.
>
>> You cut it out with the large round attachment then square it off with
>> the box. For two gang you cut two holes and use a two gang box cutter to
>> square it off.
>
> They are a bit coy about the bricks it will work on without damage to it
> as it's a fairly expensive item. Have you used one and found it a great
> boon over an SDS and chisel?
>

> Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW

I've used one ( the single 'box' size). I gave it up as a waste of time ,
because the sheer amount of brick-dust that the rotating disc grinds off was
... disturbing. :)

I've found that the techniques of SDS+chisel to outline the aperture then a
combination of the cranked 'channelling chisel ;' together with straight
chisel is faster and less messy. {BTW, I use tan envelope stuck to the wall
plus plastics sheeting laid under the cut-out seems to cope with most of
the debris.

I use the cranked channelling chisel to 'get behind' the skirting board,
anyway

--

Brian


Steven Campbell

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Jun 5, 2007, 1:58:16 PM6/5/07
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"Harry Bloomfield" <harry.m1...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mn.2c1b7d76d...@tiscali.co.uk...

Not sure what the proper way is but I try to do the opposite and make it a
perfect fit.
I make the hole as tight as possible, that way I don't need to plaster round
the box as the socket overhangs the box.

Steven.


Lurch

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Jun 5, 2007, 2:06:19 PM6/5/07
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On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 18:58:16 +0100, "Steven Campbell"
<sp...@private.net> mused:

I'd start off aiming for a tight fit, if it goes wrong I'd loosen off
a bit more for a better key for the filler\plaster\whatever.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

John Stumbles

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Jun 5, 2007, 3:01:22 PM6/5/07
to
On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 14:28:20 +0100, TMC wrote:

> When I did these by hand I marked around the box used a 40mm
> 'electricians' chisel to cut the outside to depth or at least through
> the plaster. Then used a scutch chisel to cut out the brick. The teeth
> on the chisel allowed much better control and less chance of cracking
> the brick. 2lb lump hammer for both chisels.
>
> And then there was SDS


Toolstation do a brick removing SDS chisel with a flat end with V-shaped
teeth. You can use that a bit like a scutch hammer for sculpting masonry
without skating all over it or digging into it as you do with a normal
chisel.


--
John Stumbles

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous

Andy Dingley

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Jun 5, 2007, 4:34:39 PM6/5/07
to
On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 06:02:21 -0700, Thomarse
<thomas...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>I know you can buy guides from B&Q etc that you place on the wall and
>drill a series of holes which you then knock out, but I wonder if
>anyone has any experience of using these and whether they are any
>good?

They were great for use with hammer drills.

These days, with SDS drills, there's no need. Make yourself a crude
stencil just for marking out (or use a wall box) and then just chisel
freehand to the line. With the vastly improved chiselling power of SDS,
you can freehand it through anything up to concrete with hard aggregate.

You will of course have an SDS drill with a rotation stop, and a
suitable set of chisels, including a plaster-chasing spoon. Foolish not
to.

The back can be rough as anything, just focus on getting the sides
fairly neat.

Andrew Gabriel

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Jun 5, 2007, 4:58:30 PM6/5/07
to
In article <4eee429...@davenoise.co.uk>,

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> writes:
> In article <BXd9i.1643$uU4...@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>,
> Sam Farrell <sam_farrell@nomail .com> wrote:
>> You could hire a box cutter with an SDS drill and do a proper
>> professional , and quicker job. Have a look at
>> http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/cat.jsp?cId=A237679&ts=51549 to see
>> the sort of tool I mean.
>
>> You cut it out with the large round attachment then square it off with
>> the box. For two gang you cut two holes and use a two gang box cutter to
>> square it off.
>
> They are a bit coy about the bricks it will work on without damage to it
> as it's a fairly expensive item. Have you used one and found it a great
> boon over an SDS and chisel?

The circular cutter does about 25 holes into bricks (commons)
and then very suddenly goes blunt. So that's about £2 per hole.
If you've got a lot to do in a short time, that can be well
worth it. The squaring off cutters are completely useless and
just get jammed in a solid brick wall. A chisel bit for squaring
off works just fine.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Steve Firth

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Jun 5, 2007, 5:38:27 PM6/5/07
to
Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> The circular cutter does about 25 holes into bricks (commons)
> and then very suddenly goes blunt. So that's about £2 per hole.
> If you've got a lot to do in a short time, that can be well
> worth it. The squaring off cutters are completely useless and
> just get jammed in a solid brick wall. A chisel bit for squaring
> off works just fine.

In soft brickwork I use an SDS claw chisel to sink a box, because it
makes it easy to create vertical sides and a flat base to the box.

Dave Fawthrop

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Jun 6, 2007, 2:39:15 AM6/6/07
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On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 22:38:27 +0100, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
wrote:

|!Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:
|!
|!> The circular cutter does about 25 holes into bricks (commons)
|!> and then very suddenly goes blunt. So that's about ?2 per hole.
|!> If you've got a lot to do in a short time, that can be well
|!> worth it. The squaring off cutters are completely useless and
|!> just get jammed in a solid brick wall. A chisel bit for squaring
|!> off works just fine.
|!
|!In soft brickwork I use an SDS claw chisel to sink a box, because it
|!makes it easy to create vertical sides and a flat base to the box.

Do you have a URL for "SDS claw chisel"
Google failed me this time :-(


--
Dave Fawthrop <sf hyphenologist.co.uk> 165 *Free* SF ebooks.
165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any
address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address.

Steve Firth

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Jun 6, 2007, 3:23:12 AM6/6/07
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Dave Fawthrop <inv...@hyphenologist.co.uk.invalid> wrote:

> Do you have a URL for "SDS claw chisel"
> Google failed me this time :-(

No, I go to the local tool shop to buy them. They are rectangular bars
with several small pyramid shaped teeth on the cutting face, the same as
the claw chisels used by masons to dress stone.

Mick6

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Jun 6, 2007, 7:39:05 AM6/6/07
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In article <hdlc63td7f63e8s28...@4ax.com>,
Dave Fawthrop <inv...@hyphenologist.co.uk.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 22:38:27 +0100, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
> wrote:
>
> |!
> |!In soft brickwork I use an SDS claw chisel to sink a box, because it
> |!makes it easy to create vertical sides and a flat base to the box.
>
> Do you have a URL for "SDS claw chisel"
> Google failed me this time :-(


Fourth item down (Square hole cutter):

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/DrillBits/Chisels/d110/sd2781

Would be interested to hear from anyone else who's used this. I've
always resisted the circular cutter type as I guessed it would produce
oodles of dust - which others have just confirmed.

John Rumm

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Jun 6, 2007, 11:17:01 AM6/6/07
to
Mick6 wrote:

> Fourth item down (Square hole cutter):
>
> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/DrillBits/Chisels/d110/sd2781
>
> Would be interested to hear from anyone else who's used this. I've
> always resisted the circular cutter type as I guessed it would produce
> oodles of dust - which others have just confirmed.

I have a feeling those ones only work in soft blocks rather than hard
brick...

Dave Plowman (News)

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Jun 6, 2007, 12:20:08 PM6/6/07
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In article <4666cfed$0$8729$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>,

John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
> Mick6 wrote:

> > Fourth item down (Square hole cutter):
> >
> > http://www.toolstation.com/shop/DrillBits/Chisels/d110/sd2781
> >
> > Would be interested to hear from anyone else who's used this. I've
> > always resisted the circular cutter type as I guessed it would produce
> > oodles of dust - which others have just confirmed.

> I have a feeling those ones only work in soft blocks rather than hard
> brick...

I've a feeling none of them have a decent life with any bricks...

--
*60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW

Steve Firth

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Jun 6, 2007, 1:19:48 PM6/6/07
to
Mick6 <nos...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Do you have a URL for "SDS claw chisel"
> > Google failed me this time :-(
>
>
> Fourth item down (Square hole cutter):

Eww no.



> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/DrillBits/Chisels/d110/sd2781
>
> Would be interested to hear from anyone else who's used this. I've
> always resisted the circular cutter type as I guessed it would produce
> oodles of dust - which others have just confirmed.

The one I use is on that page:

39281 SDS Plus Brick Removing Chisel

Brian Sharrock

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Jun 6, 2007, 1:38:34 PM6/6/07
to

"Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1hzasyn.zv66jrh8dp2mN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk...

I'm open to correction; but I _think_ that 'brick removing chisel' (it's
quite thin) is for chipping out the mortar between and around bricks to
permit a brick-sized aperture to be opened -rather than 'planeing a brick. I
use the cranked chisels - sort of shovel shaped ends to 'plane' the back
surface.

BTW is the purpose of the mortar to join bricks togehter or keep them apart?

--

Brian


Steve Firth

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Jun 6, 2007, 4:16:09 PM6/6/07
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Brian Sharrock <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> "Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1hzasyn.zv66jrh8dp2mN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk...
> > Mick6 <nos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > Do you have a URL for "SDS claw chisel"
> >> > Google failed me this time :-(
> >>
> >>
> >> Fourth item down (Square hole cutter):
> >
> > Eww no.
> >
> >> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/DrillBits/Chisels/d110/sd2781
> >>
> >> Would be interested to hear from anyone else who's used this. I've
> >> always resisted the circular cutter type as I guessed it would produce
> >> oodles of dust - which others have just confirmed.
> >
> > The one I use is on that page:
> >
> > 39281 SDS Plus Brick Removing Chisel
>
> I'm open to correction; but I _think_ that 'brick removing chisel' (it's
> quite thin)

It's not that thin, and would only be good for chopping out the mortar
on a modern (i.e. far too deep) layer of mortar.

> is for chipping out the mortar between and around bricks to
> permit a brick-sized aperture to be opened -rather than 'planeing a brick.

It's not like it's going to break if used for something else and it's
perfect both for chasing in and cutting boxes in brick. If you look at
the enlargement you will see the design is very similar to a scutch
chisel which is used for dressing masonary.

> I use the cranked chisels - sort of shovel shaped ends to 'plane' the back
> surface.

The one referred to is easier to use IMO. Also available in TCT if one
is intending to do a lot of work. It can be used with the tool at 90
degrees to the back of hte box and it's possible to get a good level
finish. They are also much sturdier than the box sinkers.

> BTW is the purpose of the mortar to join bricks togehter or keep them apart?

As far as I can tell on modern brickwork it's to make the job cheaper by
using fewer bricks.

Dave Fawthrop

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Jun 7, 2007, 4:20:54 AM6/7/07
to
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:39:05 GMT, Mick6 <nos...@yahoo.com> wrote:

|!In article <hdlc63td7f63e8s28...@4ax.com>,
|! Dave Fawthrop <inv...@hyphenologist.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
|!
|!> On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 22:38:27 +0100, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
|!> wrote:
|!>
|!> |!


|!> |!In soft brickwork I use an SDS claw chisel to sink a box, because it

|!> |!makes it easy to create vertical sides and a flat base to the box.
|!>
|!> Do you have a URL for "SDS claw chisel"
|!> Google failed me this time :-(
|!
|!
|!Fourth item down (Square hole cutter):
|!
|! http://www.toolstation.com/shop/DrillBits/Chisels/d110/sd2781

Thanks I may need that sometime.

Thomarse

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Jun 7, 2007, 6:37:29 AM6/7/07
to
On Jun 6, 9:16 pm, %ste...@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth) wrote:
> Brian Sharrock <b.sharr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > "Steve Firth" <%ste...@malloc.co.uk> wrote in message
> using fewer bricks.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi agian guys,

I have done the boxes, I used my trusty hammer and chisel, and
occasional normal drill bit... no other tools, managed to have a box
cut out and attached within 20 minutes or so, with relatively little
stress or extra cost. All pretty neat and tidy too!. I went for teh
tight option then chipped away to make the box fit snugly, screwed it
into the brickwork, filler around it, ajob done!

Thanks again for all the advice!

Tom

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