Water softeners not good for combi boilers?

[Bert Coules]

I was surprised yesterday to be told that water softeners can be damaging to
combi boilers; I'd never come across that before. Googling reveals no
unanimity of opinion on the subject and I'd be interested to know what
people here think. My combi is a twelve year old Baxi 80e and the softener
I'm considering is a Kinetico. I've spoken to Kinetico about the
installation and they never mentioned any possible problem, but then perhaps
they wouldn't.

Many thanks.

[David WE Roberts]

The manual for my Worcester Bosch warns against filling the central
heating part with softened water.

No problem - just engage the bypass for the water softener and then run
some hot water through to flush out the softened water before filling up
the central heating.

There are no warnings about running softened water through the hot water
side - you have to fit a water conditioner in hard water areas to prevent
scaling up if you don't have a water softener.

HTH

Dave R

[The Natural Philosopher]

Do combi boilers come with a sticker that says 'not for use in soft
water areas?'

I think not.

Only issue is pressure reduction but thats cured by using the right size
of softener and pipework.

even if it has small connectors, use bigger pipes in and out and adapters.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Bert Coules]

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote:

> Do combi boilers come with a sticker that says 'not for use in soft water
> areas?'

Ah, but the issue as I understood it is that artificially softened water has
properties which the naturally occurring variety does not, and it's these
properties which might be damaging in some way.

[Bert Coules]

David WE Roberts wrote:

> The manual for my Worcester Bosch warns against filling the central
> heating part with softened water.

Ah, so it's only when refilling or topping up the heating system's water
that it becomes an issue? That's good news, many thanks.

[RobertL]

The same ones that mean you should not drink softened water, perhaps. it has a lot of sodium in it.

Robert

[Bert Coules]

RobertL wrote:

> The same ones that mean you should not drink
> softened water, perhaps. it has a lot of sodium in it.

I was going to ask about that. Again, there seem to be several schools of
thought, or rather two: it is OK to drink softened water and it isn't.

If you believe the second, isn't there a device which you can plumb in just
before the kitchen cold water tap to remove the sodium? But does that have
the effect of making the water hard again?

In my case it would be a very major disruption to install a separate branch
of the incoming main just to feed a kitchen tap (and an outdoor tap) so the
idea of softening all the system has a certain appeal.

[charles]

In article <3aKdndy-s7ZPHsvP...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert Coules

In my case, the water softener is beside the storage tank; the kitchen tap
and the outside ones are fed from before the device. My CH storage tank
get softened water too. It should minimise scaling in the boiler.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[The Natural Philosopher]

sodium carbonate?

hardly the world worst corrosive agent.

obviously fill CV up with correct fernox stuff and so on, but really
.......

[The Natural Philosopher]

yeah, about a crisp packet per ten gallons worth.

> Robert

[The Natural Philosopher]

I am afraid you legally need to do that.

[Bert Coules]

Charles wrote:

> In my case, the water softener is beside the storage tank; the kitchen tap
> and the outside ones are fed from before the device.

That would be tricky for me to do, simply because of the physical layout of
the property: the main comes into the house at the front, runs under the
bathroom (three feeds) and then into the kitchen (boiler, sink and washing
machine, in that order) and finally the outside tap. There would have to be
a lot of doubling-up of the cold water pipe run which would necessitate a
pretty major disruption.

[Bert Coules]

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote:

>> In my case it would be a very major disruption to install a separate
>> branch of the incoming main just to feed a kitchen tap (and an outdoor

>> tap)...>>

>
> I am afraid you legally need to do that.

I do? It's *illegal* to supply softened water to a kitchen and an outdoor
tap?

[The Natural Philosopher]

a kitchen yes.

Outdoor tap, no BUT its a hell of a lot of salt you will be using to
water the garden.

Its all this bollocks about 'sodium in the diet' so its a building
regulation I think now.

You will need to run a spur to at least the kitchen tap.
plastic pipe makes this easier than it used to be.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 10/10/13 13:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/10/13 12:34, Bert Coules wrote:
>> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote:
>>
>>>> In my case it would be a very major disruption to install a separate
>>>> branch of the incoming main just to feed a kitchen tap (and an outdoor
>>>> tap)...>>
>>>
>>> I am afraid you legally need to do that.
>>
>> I do? It's *illegal* to supply softened water to a kitchen and an
>> outdoor tap?
>>
>>
> a kitchen yes.
>
> Outdoor tap, no BUT its a hell of a lot of salt you will be using to
> water the garden.
>
> Its all this bollocks about 'sodium in the diet' so its a building
> regulation I think now.
>
> You will need to run a spur to at least the kitchen tap.
> plastic pipe makes this easier than it used to be.
>
>

on further research it seems it 'depends on how hard the water was to
start with'...

"Fitment of separate hard water drinking tap is not required by
regulation, except in exceptionally hard water areas (above 400mg/l)
where the Sodium content of the treated water (increased due to the
softening process) exceeds the level laid down in the Water Supply
(Water Quality) Regulations 2000. Fitting a separate drinking water tap
is currently recommended by the UK Dept of Health, WRAS and the UKWTA."

I am in such an area, and it was mandatory.

Not that in general there is more sodium in a pint of milk that a pint
of softened water.

Some people don't like the taste of sodium carbonate, either.

[Bert Coules]

Thanks for the update.

> "Fitment of separate hard water drinking tap is not required by
> regulation, except in exceptionally hard water areas (above 400mg/l) where
> the Sodium content of the treated water (increased due to the softening
> process) exceeds the level laid down in the Water Supply

I don't know how to find out the exact hardness of my drinking water: I'll
investigate.

[Bert Coules]

Well, according to my water supplier (Affinity Water) the rating for my
postcode is 288 mg/l - well below the 400mg/l level which makes a separate
unsoftened drinking tap supply mandatory.

So the issues become, would I be OK with the taste of softened water, and
would the disruption and costs of installing separate feeds for kitchen sink
and outside tap outweigh the cost of using softened water for those places.

[harryagain]

"Bert Coules" <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote in message
news:yNWdnajzn7X58svP...@brightview.co.uk...

Softened water does not "get along with" the chemicals recommended for the
system especially if there is an aluminiun heat exchanger.
http://www.aqua-nouveau.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/aquafacts11_concerns_about_softened_water_and_aluminium_boilers_p456.pdf


You're not supposed to drink it either The calcium bit has been replaced
with sodium.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <85ee4667-8498-4453...@googlegroups.com>,

RobertL <rober...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>The same ones that mean you should not drink softened water, perhaps.
>it has a lot of sodium in it.

Where "a lot" means typically about 1/200 of the recommended maximum
daily intake in a glass of water. This is only something to be
concerned about if you are on a strict low-sodium diet for medical
reasons.

-- Richard

[Fredxx]

On 10/10/2013 11:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/10/13 11:32, RobertL wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:13:16 AM UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
> >> "The Natural Philosopher" wrote:
> >
> >>> Do combi boilers come with a sticker that says 'not for use in
> >>> soft water
> >>> areas?'
> >
> >>
> >> Ah, but the issue as I understood it is that artificially softened
> >> water has
> >> properties which the naturally occurring variety does not, and it's
> >> these
> >> properties which might be damaging in some way.
> >
> > The same ones that mean you should not drink softened water, perhaps.
> > it has a lot of sodium in it.
> >
>
> yeah, about a crisp packet per ten gallons worth.
>

Lets take London's hard water to have a calcium carbonate content of 300mg/l

After softening that would correspond to a sodium content of 140mg/l or
a salt content of 350mg/l

So 10 gallons would have 15g of salt.

Does that mean when I buy my multipack of Walkers crisps (23g) I'm
paying for 65% salt? Wow!

Or do you have some humongous sized bag in mind!

[The Natural Philosopher]

no you aren't paying for the 65% salt

You are paying for that stupid prick lineker.

> Or do you have some humongous sized bag in mind!
>

just a salty one.

[Fredxx]

You're now comparing Lineker with 10 gallons of softened water?

>
> > Or do you have some humongous sized bag in mind!
> >
> just a salty one.

So the conclusion is there's a lot of salt in softened water so it's
best to avoid.

10 gallons of softened London water has 15 grams of salt, equivalent to
30 packs of Walkers' 34.5g bags of crisps.

Walkers crisps aren't so bad after all!

[Martin Bonner]

An additional issue to consider:
- is there any risk of you (or someone else living in the house) developing
a condition where drinking the salt in softened water would be medically
prohibited? (Note that Fredxx's calculation suggest an equivalent of about
150mg salt/pint ~ 1/3 bag of crisps).

[The Natural Philosopher]

more salt in a pint of milk than in a pint of softened water.

[Onetap]

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:12:04 AM UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:

There's not much on the HW side of a combi that might be damaged by softened water; only the plate heat exchanger really and that shouldn't be affected.
There are thousands of commercial installations running softened DHW through PHXs. I ran a PHX water system (not a combi) on softened water for 4 or 5 years with no problems at all.

If you have a water softener, then you have hard water and that will certainly scale up the secondary side of the plate heat exchanger if unsoftened.

There is widespread misunderstanding of both water softening and combi boilers all over the internet.

[Bert Coules]

Onetap wrote:

> There's not much on the HW side of a combi

> that might be damaged by softened water...

Thanks very much for that.

[lilyg...@gmail.com]

I had a well known brand date softener which was cleaned by block salt. There is a water bypass to use for drinking water and cooking - as every time the cleaning cycle takes place the water is ever so slightly salty! My boiler heater exchanger, I believe was ruined because of this ( Worcester Bosch) I was quoted 1.4 k to repair by the Insurance boiler cover I had - beyond economic feasibility. Went back to Worcester Bosch who stood by their product got it done for just £220.

I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go for magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.

[harryagain]

<lilyg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bbe4783b-a918-44a0...@googlegroups.com...

The salt regenerates the chemical that softens the water. Nothing to do with
cleaning.
A softener prevents scale build up in your boiler heatX.

The magnetic/electronic softeners are pure bollix.

[stuart noble]

The WB callout charge is a good deal if something serious needs
replacing, plus they invariably have the part on board and are gone
within the hour. Can't see why a water softener would ruin your heat
exchanger though

[Vir Campestris]

On 23/03/2014 11:59, lilyg...@gmail.com wrote:

> I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go for magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.

I bet you cannot find an independent test that says they work.

BTW salty taste in softened water is a fault.

Andy

[Tim+]

I think Lily is in the bogus water softener market...

Tim

[The Natural Philosopher]

Depends what you mean by 'salty' Mine tastes as it should of sodium
carbonate.

Slightly similar to sodium bicarbonate or baking powder..

[Onetap]

On Sunday, March 23, 2014 11:59:22 AM UTC, lilyg...@gmail.com wrote:
> I had a well known brand date softener which was cleaned by block salt. There is a water bypass to use for drinking water and cooking - as every time the cleaning cycle takes place the water is ever so slightly salty! My boiler heater exchanger, I believe was ruined because of this ( Worcester Bosch) I was quoted 1.4 k to repair by the Insurance boiler cover I had - beyond economic feasibility. Went back to Worcester Bosch who stood by their product got it done for just £220.
>

The softener is regenerated with brine.
After all the brine is drawn off, there is a rinse stage, during which water continues flowing through the resin and down the drain, to remove all traces of salt.

The fact that the water tasted salty suggests too much brine and/or too short a rinse, i.e., the softener was defective.

> I would not recomend these types of water softeners - better to go for magnets or electronic gadgets which process the hard water.

They're not softeners and they don't process the hard water. They remove none of the hardness.
The dissolved calcium and magnesium salt content remains exactly the same.

[John Rumm]

It would help if it was made clear which HEX was being discussed - the
primary or the secondary plate HE. The primary's only potential contact
with softened water is from the initial fill. Assuming the system is not
being refilled often, and is treated with corrosion inhibitor the
chances of softened water causing it any damage would seem remote.

The PHE use for the DHW side of the combi would obviously be more at
risk (but that is certainly not a "beyond economic replacement" item.
Also most combi makers fitting instructions require some form of scale
inhibition system to be present.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[stuart noble]

On 23/03/2014 16:51, Huge wrote:

>> for magnets or electronic gadgets which ...
>
> ... do absolutely nothing.
>
>

AIUI the principle works in industry, and a magnet the size of a double
kitchen unit might just handle domestic mains pressure water.....

[Davey]

On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:54:22 +0000
stuart noble <stuart...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> AIUI the principle works in industry,

Some references would be interesting. I can find lots of claims, but
nothing definitive.

--
Davey.

[Tim+]

Please, let's not go there. ;-) I thing most folk would agree that ion
exchange water softeners DO work (other than the OP).

Tim

[Davey]

I thought that this claim ("AIUI the principle works in industry"),
was about magnets working. Ion exchange, no problem. Magnets, not so sure.

--
Davey.

[xbi...@tiscali.co.uk]

On Thursday, 10 October 2013 10:12:04 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
> I was surprised yesterday to be told that water softeners can be damaging to
> combi boilers; I'd never come across that before. Googling reveals no
> unanimity of opinion on the subject and I'd be interested to know what
> people here think. My combi is a twelve year old Baxi 80e and the softener
> I'm considering is a Kinetico. I've spoken to Kinetico about the
> installation and they never mentioned any possible problem, but then perhaps
> they wouldn't.
>
> Many thanks.

All this talk of SALT in SOFTENED WATER is rubbish SALT is not added to the water supply with softners it is used for Cleaning & Regeneration of the Resin which softens the water. The salt tank has water added to produce a Brine which is pushed through the resin tank to clean it and then pumped out followed by flushing with Clean water to remove any remaining salt! during this process the house supply is shut off ( Bypassed ) and reopened after so NO SALT enters the house supply. If you have Salt ? Salt Taste in your softned / drinking water your System is FAULTY and needs checking.

BY THE WAY.. I still Have A Halsted Trio Combi Boiler running on Softned Water which is 22 years old and still running without ever needing a heat exchanger! Only part ever needed in that time is the 3 way valve changed twice. I bet a new Condensing Combi will not go that long!!

[xbi...@tiscali.co.uk]

[Brian Gaff]

Where are these old threads coming from?
2013?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please!
<xbi...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5d840f6f-644c-4025...@googlegroups.com...

[Thomas Prufer]

YOU are REPLYING to a THREAD from 2013.

THE SALT regenerates the resin by displacing calcium with sodium within the
resin. In daily USE, the SODIUM ions again replaces the CALCIUM ions. So there
are sodium in the water rather than calcium ions...