fix leak in lead pipe water supply

[Johnny B Good]

I finally tracked down the source of water ingress into our basement to
a pin prick hole in the lead service pipe just where it enters the
building. I've made a temporary repair with a small self tapping screw
(unfluted type) and some expoxy resin.

It still leaks but it's now only a matter of millilitres per hour versus
the initial 8l/hour I'd ascertained from the water meter readings after
shutting the internal stopcock located just 50cms from the entry point in
the basement.

I'd like to improve my temporary repair efforts by cutting the pipe at
the leak point to insert a 4 or 5 inch 15mm copper pipe, secured with
hose clamps. Although it seems like an effective way to make a semi
permanent repair, I'm wondering if there'll be any snags I've overlooked,
hence my asking in this NG whether I'll be making a serious mistake
rather than a cost effective "temporary" repair.

--
Johnny B Good

[Andy Burns]

Johnny B Good wrote:

> I'd like to improve my temporary repair efforts by cutting the pipe at
> the leak point to insert a 4 or 5 inch 15mm copper pipe, secured with
> hose clamps.

Why not use a proper lead to copper coupler? You'd need to figure out whether
it's 5lb, 7lb or 9lb lead, I imagine there's a table of lead pipe diameters out
there somewhere?

<https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=leadline+coupler&_sacat=0>

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

On 09/08/2022 13:42, Johnny B Good wrote:
> like to improve my temporary repair efforts by cutting the pipe at
> the leak point to insert a 4 or 5 inch 15mm copper pipe, secured with
> hose clamps. Although it seems like an effective way to make a semi
> permanent repair, I'm wondering if there'll be any snags I've overlooked,
> hence my asking in this NG whether I'll be making a serious mistake
> rather than a cost effective "temporary" repair.

A hose clamp fitted where the leak is at the moment, might help reduce
the flow as a temporary.

A bit of copper pipe and two clamps can work, but the clamps will need
to be stainless, because they will rust rapidly away.

[John Rumm]

On 09/08/2022 13:42, Johnny B Good wrote:

For a temporary fix on a weeping pinhole, I normally find just tapping
the area round the hole with a light hammer is enough to peen over some
metal and seal it.

However for a permanent you have two options - a proper coupler, or a
proper made up "wiped joint". The former is much easier!

e.g.

https://www.bes.co.uk/pipes-tubes-and-fittings/pipe-fittings/compression/lead-pipe/

Those are the compression style ones - there are also various poly style
fittings with rubber O ring seals.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Clive Arthur]

On 09/08/2022 14:54, John Rumm wrote:

<snip>

>
> For a temporary fix on a weeping pinhole, I normally find just tapping
> the area round the hole with a light hammer is enough to peen over some
> metal and seal it.

Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcNiYQgsBUU

--
Cheers
Clive

[Robin]

On 09/08/2022 14:54, John Rumm wrote:

the latter a bid more flexible if the pipe is too oval for a Lead Loc?

(I'm too much of a wimp to try to knock it back into shape when it's
reinforced by 100+ years of hard water scale.)



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Andrew]

On 09/08/2022 13:42, Johnny B Good wrote:

Aren't you allowed one free leak fix per year from your water
supplier ?. If so, get them to dig up the road outside and
change it all to MDPE through to your internal stopcock.

[SH]

and ISTR that the water companies have a national lead pipe replacement
programme?


SFX: tap tap tap for google.....

Aha!

https://www.pipelineservices.co.uk/lead-replacement-scheme/

I was right... :-)

S.

[John Rumm]

To be fair I have not tried - if the pipe is deformed I usually just try
to find a round bit to make the cut into!

They probably will accept a bit of deformity since lead pipe is not
usually that regular.

[Brian Gaff]

Well in this house there was apparently a leak before we moved in half way
up a wall in the lead pipe. What it looks like is that a copper pipe is
joined using what looks like two rings of something like solder. Its lasted
for over 40 years and I'm not about to disturb it to get a loser look!

Brian

--

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"Johnny B Good" <johnny...@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote in message
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[Robin]

none of the links on that page work for me; not too surprising as it's
the site of a dormant company

I can't speak for water companies generally but Thames will usually
replace their lead pipes (if any) *if* you replace yours. But they
won't pay for yours to be replaced. And "yours" includes the supply
pipe from the tap in (typically) the pavement.

https://www.thameswater.co.uk/help/water-quality/lead

What you can get for free is a check on how much lead is in your water.

[Jeff Layman]

On 09/08/2022 13:42, Johnny B Good wrote:

Would it be possible to freeze the pipe and solder over the leak (before
the soldering iron melts the water inside)?

--

Jeff

[Adrian]

In message <519ba021-faa8-d02d...@outlook.com>, Robin
<r...@outlook.com> writes

>I can't speak for water companies generally but Thames will usually
>replace their lead pipes (if any) *if* you replace yours. But they
>won't pay for yours to be replaced. And "yours" includes the supply
>pipe from the tap in (typically) the pavement.
>

Mine do that as well, but ...

Before they go ahead, they want a documentation to show that I've done
my bit. I had a new main moled in, but the guy that did it never
supplied the paperwork, so (almost) 20 years on, I've still go lead to
the stop cock, and for a few inches on my side of it. Mine was replaced
because the in-house stop cock was in a silly place (and seized solid),
rather than because of a leak.

So if you are going down that route, make sure that you've got the
relevant paper work.

Adrian
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[Johnny B Good]

That's going to cost money on top of my time. :(

I tracked down a list of lead pipe sizes and copied this list posted by
a screwfix forum member:-

/QUOTE
===============================================================================

" Old lead pipe is measured by internal diameter the outside diameter
governs the weight per yard as follows.

measurements to nearest 1/64"

1/2" Internal dia

5lb =53/64" o/dia ( 21.83mm)

6lb= 7/8" o/dia (22.23mm)

7lb= 59/64 o/dia ( 23.42mm)

9lb =1-1/64" o/dia (25.8mm)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3/4" internal dia

6lb= 1-3/64" o/dia (26.59mm)

8lb =1-1/8" o/dia ( 28.58mm)

9lb= 1-5/32" o/dia (29.37mm)

11lb= 1-15/64" o/dia (31.35mm)

12lb= 1-17/64" o/dia (32.15mm)

15lb =1-23/64" o/dia 34.53mm)

Philip Dennis, Sep 28, 2015#5

==============================================================================
EndQuote/

I measured the circumference to be 73mm using a twist tie and calculated
the closest match to be 1/2 inch 7Lb/yd lead pipe.

Using a 15mm copper joining piece means I'll need to swage it out to at
least an inch into the cut ends of the pipe.

It's this bit of the job that concerns me a lttle since I no longer have
my collection of scrap 1/2 inch 7Lb lead pipe to practice this on.
However, if push comes to shove, I do have a length of 1/2 inch aluminium
tube I could use as a temporary quick fix whilst I shop for a better
coupling option. I'm not so sure that mixing ally with lead is such a
good idea but I'd be delighted to be corrected on this point. :)

At least I now know the pipe size with enough confidence, should the
need arise, to search for the appropriate sized fittings.

--
Johnny B Good

[Bob Eager]

On Tue, 09 Aug 2022 12:42:11 +0000, Johnny B Good wrote:

> I'd like to improve my temporary repair efforts by cutting the pipe at
> the leak point to insert a 4 or 5 inch 15mm copper pipe, secured with
> hose clamps. Although it seems like an effective way to make a semi
> permanent repair, I'm wondering if there'll be any snags I've
> overlooked,
> hence my asking in this NG whether I'll be making a serious mistake
> rather than a cost effective "temporary" repair.

When I had to do this, I used a Johnson coupling (no sniggers about the
PM here, please).

I intended it to be permanent, and indeed it was still there when we
moved out 13 years later.



--
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wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
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[Johnny B Good]

I suspect any such attempt to completely stop the trickle is more likely
to undo what I've managed to achieve with a self tapping screw and some
epoxy so will pass on that option. However, you raised a good point about
the hose clamps.

The ones I bought a couple of months ago (from Lidl since they're a box
of Parkside branded hose clamps) don't seem to be stainless steel - no
mention of ss on the box label and a magnet sticks very firmly to them.

I might be able to reduce the corrosion hazard by wrapping each clamp
separately in SA tape. Alternatively, a thick coating of a bitumastic
paint might be a better alternative.



--
Johnny B Good

[Johnny B Good]

Thanks for the link (a wiped joint is beyond my capabilities). However
I'd need to use a couple of these "1/2" x 7 lb Lead to 15 mm Copper
Compression - Lead line" back to back and with the VAT would cost me
£16.58 so I'll save that for when my cheap bodge proves to be not such
the good idea I think it is. :)

--
Johnny B Good

[Johnny B Good]

Not a cat in hell's chance! :) In any case, there's no need to freeze
the water when you can simply shut off the supply at pavement stopcock
and drain the pipe down so you don't have even a trickle of water boiling
away the heat of the blow torch (even a BFO soldering iron stands no
chance of soldering a patch onto 1/2 inch 7Lb/yd lead pipe).

--
Johnny B Good

[John J]

I've made several "temporary" repairs to pinholes in pipes by using a patch of rubber and a stainless steel jubilee clip. For temporary - one is now 30 years old and the latest is four years old. eBay is a useful source for "samples" of 2mm thick silicon rubber and jubilee clips.
The old timers used to drive a small tapered wooden peg into pinholes in lead pipe. The wood expanded when wet and stayed drip free for almost ever. It sometimes created a problem if the pipe was drained for winter frost protection and the wood dried out then it leaked. Holding the peg in place until it swelled again usually worked.

[SteveW]

I think that my big torch might - with the gas pressure turned up to 4
Barg, it outputs 130 kW ! I actually have it for heating copper for
silver soldering to make a model boiler.

[Johnny B Good]

Unfortunately, the pinhole leak seems to have been caused by a spade
strike (there was only six inches, if that, of soil covering its entry
point) so the dent makes such a repair problematical and I'm not certain
whether those hose clamps can be opened to permit slipping them over the
pipe anyway.

It's why I was planning on cutting at the leak site so I ccould swage it
back to round and insert a stub of 15mm copper (or maybe some half inch
ally tube) and clamp it with hose clamps. Mind you, I might just chuck
£16.58 worth of 15mm copper to half inch 7Lb/yd lead couplers at it.

A question I posed regarding my doubts over the use of aluminium with
lead seems to be answered by the galvanic corrosion risk chart and the
chemical reactivity chart.

The galvanic corrosion risk is low between lead and aluminium (less than
that of copper/lead) but the high reactivity of aluminium with all the
halogens (including chlorine) suggests my concern has some justification
due to the use of chlorination by public water supply utilities.

If it proves too much of a struggle to insert the 15mm copper into the
pipe ends, the ally tube option can at least buy me some time to get hold
of those couplers without having to manage without a water supply for
more than a day.

Anyway, thanks for offering your suggestions and thanks to everyone who
took the time to offer their advice and suggestions. I'll likely have it
sorted before the weekend when number one son can spare some more time to
assist me. I'll report on the outcome once it's all done and dusted.


--
Johnny B Good

[Johnny B Good]

The problem in my case is that even if I possessed such a BFO torch, I'd
most likely find myself staring at a puddle of molten lead where the pipe
ends used to be. :( It takes considerable skill and practice to make a
lead wipe joint and I possess neither. I know my limitations so I
definitely won't be going there. :)


--
Johnny B Good

[Colin Bignell]

On 10/08/2022 00:07, Johnny B Good wrote:
...

> Unfortunately, the pinhole leak seems to have been caused by a spade
> strike (there was only six inches, if that, of soil covering its entry
> point) so the dent makes such a repair problematical and I'm not certain
> whether those hose clamps can be opened to permit slipping them over the

> pipe anyway....

It is a bit fiddly on very small sizes, but I have done it with a 1X
Jubilee clip. The larger sizes, such as the 9.5 that I sometimes used to
use, are supplied open as standard.


--
Colin Bignell

[Rob Morley]

On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 12:42:11 -0000 (UTC)
Johnny B Good <johnny...@invalid.ntlworld.com> wrote:

> I'd like to improve my temporary repair efforts by cutting the pipe
> at the leak point to insert a 4 or 5 inch 15mm copper pipe, secured
> with hose clamps. Although it seems like an effective way to make a
> semi permanent repair, I'm wondering if there'll be any snags I've
> overlooked, hence my asking in this NG whether I'll be making a
> serious mistake rather than a cost effective "temporary" repair.
>

I temporarily fixed a damaged pipe with a bit of car radiator hose and
the associated clip - twenty years on it still hasn't leaked. :-)

[John Rumm]

SF might have something suitable for a bit less - but prolly still ~£10
a fitting...

[John Rumm]

There is an alternative method that will work for a straight "end to
end" lead to copper joint.

You start by swaging / reaming / drilling the end of the lead pipe to
accept an inch of copper inserted into the end. Clean up the end /
interior of the lead so that it is bright and clean, likewise the copper.

Shove the copper in the end of the lead with plenty of flux. Then
*gently* start heating the copper pipe with a soft flame - not letting
the flame play on the lead directly. The idea being to get the copper up
to soldering temp, and just on the verge of melting the inner surface of
lead it is touching. Then using a normal lead/tin plumbing solder start
touching in all around the joint. You should be able to get a decent
fillet of solder into the joint and bonded to the end of the lead. It
will take a number of minutes to complete the joint.

[N_Cook]

On 09/08/2022 13:42, Johnny B Good wrote:
> I finally tracked down the source of water ingress into our basement to
> a pin prick hole in the lead service pipe just where it enters the
> building. I've made a temporary repair with a small self tapping screw
> (unfluted type) and some expoxy resin.
>
> It still leaks but it's now only a matter of millilitres per hour versus
> the initial 8l/hour I'd ascertained from the water meter readings after
> shutting the internal stopcock located just 50cms from the entry point in
> the basement.
>
> I'd like to improve my temporary repair efforts by cutting the pipe at
> the leak point to insert a 4 or 5 inch 15mm copper pipe, secured with
> hose clamps. Although it seems like an effective way to make a semi
> permanent repair, I'm wondering if there'll be any snags I've overlooked,
> hence my asking in this NG whether I'll be making a serious mistake
> rather than a cost effective "temporary" repair.
>

I managed to fix a leak in lead pipe where it passed through a sleeper
wall and over the brick, so failed on underside with thermal changes
,vibration or something, using 2 hot air guns.
As it was impossible to turn off totally the water supply, 1 gun to boil
away the water at the lowest section in the pipe run and the other one
locally to heat the pipe at the failure, not enough heat to melt it ,
and sweat in some solder over the leak . After abraiding and fluxing that is

--
Global sea level rise to 2100 from curve-fitted existing altimetry data
<http://diverse.4mg.com/slr.htm>

[John Rumm]

Handy table - I thought it might be worth keeping that for future
reference, so put it in a new wiki page:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lead_pipe

[Robin]

Just for the record, one of the Screwfix conversions has (probably) a
typo. 53/64" is 21.43mm. I've amended the wiki table.

[John Rumm]

Looking into it a bit more, there seems to be conflicting information -
some sources quoting the size of 1/2" 5lb as 53/64"

I dug out a copy of BS602, but could only get the 1970 version. They
seem to have had a half hearted attempt at metric conversion and made
many of the measurements look rather "rounded" (i.e. nominal pipe bores
shown exactly as 12, 20, 25mm etc. It would be interesting to see the
1956 version if anyone has a copy?

Some of the transition manufacturers also quote sizes, but not all of
those agree either.

[Andy Burns]

John Rumm wrote:

> I dug out a copy of BS602

Don't think I've ever seen lead gas pipes!

[John Rumm]

Pretty sure there were some in the house I grew up in (built ~1880) -
mostly buried in walls for gas lighting. Some was iron barrel.

[Fredxx]

On 09/08/2022 20:39, Johnny B Good wrote:

I've seen a plumber get come leadlocks which were too small for the lead
pipe and used a knife to take slithers off the pipe to fit.

[Johnny B Good]

I did check, and you're pretty well spot on. :(


--
Johnny B Good

[Fredxx]

On 09/08/2022 21:27, Johnny B Good wrote:

I have heard, but not seen, of a plumber enlarging the centre by
drilling with a 15mm drill bit. He passed a piece of fluxed copper into
the lead. Then heated the copper and successfully filled the joint with
solder.

Obviously if there's any water around it won't work.

[Robin]

On 10/08/2022 15:46, John Rumm wrote:
> On 10/08/2022 13:33, Robin wrote:
>> On 10/08/2022 12:47, John Rumm wrote:
>>> On 09/08/2022 20:39, Johnny B Good wrote:

<snip>

>>>> /QUOTE
>>>> ===============================================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> " Old lead pipe is measured by internal diameter the outside diameter
>>>> governs the weight per yard as follows.
>>>>
>>>> measurements to nearest 1/64"
>>>>
>>>> 1/2" Internal dia
>>>>
>>>> 5lb =53/64" o/dia ( 21.83mm) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>

<snip>

>>
>> Just for the record, one of the Screwfix conversions has (probably) a
>> typo.  53/64" is 21.43mm.  I've amended the wiki table. <<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Looking into it a bit more, there seems to be conflicting information -
> some sources quoting the size of 1/2" 5lb as 53/64" <<<<<<<<<<<<<

My head hurts. This is not unusual. But it still hurts.

[Roger Mills]

On 10/08/2022 16:02, Andy Burns wrote:

I have! The house I grew up in (built 1931) had lead gas pipes. When we
had a gas copper installed to replace the original coal-fired one, the
gas fitter tee'd off the pipe to the cooker by bodging a hole in it and
creating a wiped joint.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[John Rumm]

IME if there is doubt over the size required, then the universal
transition fittings like the Philmac are a safer bet - they do only a
few different sizes, but they cover a fairly wide range of lead pipe sizes.

https://www.stevensonplumbing.co.uk/universal-coupling-21-27-x-15-21.html

[John Rumm]

Yup I would guess that process is doable for anyone reasonably
experienced with soldering copper pipe:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lead_pipe#Lead_to_copper_transition_-_soldered

Using a drill is easy, and cleans the pipe inside really well, but does
risk lots of lead swarf getting into the pipe...

[Bob Eager]

We still have a few bits in our walls (1903 house).

I took quite a bit out ofg our previous house (1926).

[Fredxx]

On 10/08/2022 19:45, John Rumm wrote:
> On 10/08/2022 17:08, Fredxx wrote:
>> On 09/08/2022 21:27, Johnny B Good wrote:
>
>>>   Thanks for the link (a wiped joint is beyond my capabilities). However
>>> I'd need to use a couple of these "1/2" x 7 lb Lead to 15 mm Copper
>>> Compression - Lead line" back to back and with the VAT would cost me
>>> £16.58 so I'll save that for when my cheap bodge proves to be not such
>>> the good idea I think it is. :)
>>
>> I have heard, but not seen, of a plumber enlarging the centre by
>> drilling with a 15mm drill bit. He passed a piece of fluxed copper
>> into the lead. Then heated the copper and successfully filled the
>> joint with solder.
>
> Yup I would guess that process is doable for anyone reasonably
> experienced with soldering copper pipe:
>
> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lead_pipe#Lead_to_copper_transition_-_soldered

I hadn't spotted that article. One minor comment is that lead melts at
327C a lot higher than 60/40 solder, though I wouldn't recommend lead
free as that melts nearer 210C if 60/40 is available. Either way, if you
heat the copper I thought you would be pretty safe?

> Using a drill is easy, and cleans the pipe inside really well, but does
> risk lots of lead swarf getting into the pipe...

Yes, but that's true with any pipe. The last bit of plumbing I did was
for a shower and I first ran water through the pipes, before connecting
up to the fitting, to have a fighting chance that no debris would get
stuck in a filter.

[John Rumm]

On 10/08/2022 21:35, Fredxx wrote:
> On 10/08/2022 19:45, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 10/08/2022 17:08, Fredxx wrote:
>>> On 09/08/2022 21:27, Johnny B Good wrote:
>>
>>>>   Thanks for the link (a wiped joint is beyond my capabilities).
>>>> However
>>>> I'd need to use a couple of these "1/2" x 7 lb Lead to 15 mm Copper
>>>> Compression - Lead line" back to back and with the VAT would cost me
>>>> £16.58 so I'll save that for when my cheap bodge proves to be not such
>>>> the good idea I think it is. :)
>>>
>>> I have heard, but not seen, of a plumber enlarging the centre by
>>> drilling with a 15mm drill bit. He passed a piece of fluxed copper
>>> into the lead. Then heated the copper and successfully filled the
>>> joint with solder.
>>
>> Yup I would guess that process is doable for anyone reasonably
>> experienced with soldering copper pipe:
>>
>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lead_pipe#Lead_to_copper_transition_-_soldered
>
>
> I hadn't spotted that article. One minor comment is that lead melts at
> 327C a lot higher than 60/40 solder, though I wouldn't recommend lead
> free as that melts nearer 210C if 60/40 is available. Either way, if you
> heat the copper I thought you would be pretty safe?

Yup the key is not to heat the lead directly, and use the copper to
transfer the heat. Keep that hot enough to melt the solder (> 180 deg C
should be enough), and you should be able to do the joint. Point a
blazing torch at the lead, and you might just have a puddle of lead
where the pipe used to be!

>> Using a drill is easy, and cleans the pipe inside really well, but
>> does risk lots of lead swarf getting into the pipe...
>
> Yes, but that's true with any pipe. The last bit of plumbing I did was
> for a shower and I first ran water through the pipes, before connecting
> up to the fitting,  to have a fighting chance that no debris would get
> stuck in a filter.
>