Advice on making contiboard cabinets
Alan
I'm going to make up some cabinets out of contiboard using biscuit joints.
1. Will ordinary PVA wood glue work at the corners (i.e. edge to face) or
will I need to skim off the melamine surface with a router first?
2. The advice I've seen is for biscuits every 12" - any problems in having
them closer (how close)?
3. Any better ideas than biscuits?
Alan
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Cicero
=========================================
I doubt if wood glue will stick firmly to melamine (it can usually be
chipped off when dry) so you will need to remove the melamine to a depth
of about 2mm at least.
You might find that your biscuit cutter breaks through your contiboard
(5/8" - 16mm) so it would be worth doing a test to see which biscuits will
fit - if any. You can get thicker contiboard - B&Q sell 18mm.
There are plenty of good mechanical fixings (no glue) available to do this
job which you might consider unless you're determined to use biscuits. If
you do use biscuits there's no practical close limit except to ensure that
they don't overlap.
Look at www.screwfix.co.uk for a variety of mechanical fixings. Try
'pinging' The Medway Handyman here for his opinion on which are the best
mechanical fixings as he seems to do a lot of flat-pack assembly for
clients.
Cic.
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Andy Dingley
> I'm going to make up some cabinets out of contiboard using biscuit joints.
I'd suggest either:
1. Not using chipboard.
2. If you must, use MDF core rather than chipboard.
3. If you are using chipboard, then not using biscuits. Any expansion
force delaminates it too easily. I'd go for the old plastic Contiboard
blocks instead.
If you do use biscuits, plywood ones generally expand a little less
than plain beech. You can also over-width the slots slightly.
> 1. Will ordinary PVA wood glue work at the corners (i.e. edge to face)
Not a hope. Epoxy will, but even then the melamine will peel off the
core under any real load. It's also near-impossible to bond to the
"end grain" of the chipboard core.
> 2. The advice I've seen is for biscuits every 12" - any problems in having
> them closer (how close)?
The closer you pack them, the better they are at splitting the board.
12" biscuits are comparably as strong as chipboard. No point in
putting them closer.
You should be able to biscuit into 5/8" boards OK, so long as you use
small biscuits. You can do 1/2" if you're careful, but that is tricky
(there are tricks like offsetting the cut depth to put more into the
end board and less into the face board).
> 3. Any better ideas than biscuits?
Plastic uglyblocks on the surface. Just about the only fixings that
_do_ hold in chipboard are chipboard screws (correct thread) in at
right angles to the surface. Ugly, but that's chipboard for you.
Alan
> On 1 May, 08:43, Alan <a...@nospam.fudokai.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm going to make up some cabinets out of contiboard using biscuit
>> joints.
>
> I'd suggest either:
>
> 1. Not using chipboard.
>
> 2. If you must, use MDF core rather than chipboard.
If I'd found a supplier of veneered mdf in wild & wooly Norfolk, I'd be
looking at mdf but, unless someone knows different, I haven't found any.
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george (dicegeorge)
perhaps run square or triangular section wood
along the inside of the joints
and glue and screw to it
depends how valuable your time is compared to real wood..
[g]
Rod
<http://www.hafele.com/us/products/confirmat-screw-connector-hafele.asp>
I did when making/remaking several bathroom cabinets and kitchen units.
Given care, they work very well, are strong and yet remain undoable.
Of course it is best if the surfaces from which you screw are hidden
(e.g. top and bottom). But, if you can bear them, screw covers can be used.
(I bought a Trend bit that drills the three hole sizes required in one
go. Works very well.)
--
Rod
Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>
Roger Mills
Alan <a...@nospam.fudokai.org> wrote:
As others have said, little plastic joining blocks - screwed to both
pieces - are probably the most effective way of fixing the parts together -
but they do show, of course.
If you want invisible fixings, I would suggest dowels rather than biscuits.
These go much further into the 'end grain' and make stronger fixings. They
can go almost all the way through the mating bits - but you'll need a drill
with a depth gauge, to prevent breaking right through. You'll also need a
dowelling jig to ensure that all the dowel holes are in exactly the right
place.
PVA wood glue is ok for gluing the dowels into the chipboard, but I would
use an epoxy glue where the melamine faces butt against each other.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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The Medway Handyman
<Waves>
I wouldn't use biscuits in ths application, they really only hold the joint
flush until the glue dries.
If you want to go with the current trend of "screw heads are horrid & must
be hidden" then it has to be cam dowels & cam locks
http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=BBSQCGLN0TPS4CSTHZOSFEY?_dyncharset=UTF-8&fh_search=furniture+fittings&searchbutton.x=9&searchbutton.y=13&action=movePage&fh_start_index=0&fh_view_size=100
but you need some accurate holes.
If you are happy to see a blanked off hole, then a confirmat screw is what
you want.
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
gunsmith
the corners. That does take some pretty accurate machining though.
The Medway Handyman
> If you're hell bent on using biscuits I can only suggest mitreing all
> the corners. That does take some pretty accurate machining though.
Sharp intake of breath....
Alan
Aaargh! I thought this wouldn't be much of as problem - now I'm not sure
what's best to do.
I was going to go for B&Q's 18mm wood-effect (sic) chipboard but the
consensus appears to be that chipboard is a no-go without screws or blocks.
maybe I'd better rethink and go for 18mm mdf and just paint the stuff.
The thing I've always had against had against mdf is how to seal the cut
edges. I've seen suggestions using 20% PVA, 50% PVA, acrylic primer - any
other ideas.
Thanks for all the input.
Rod
Having used MDF for many shelves and desktops, all I have done (having
cleaned the stuff up as well as I could) is paint it with a few coats of
emulsion followed by a good acrylic varnish. Sides and surfaces. (We
have used Aqualac which was available from Screwfix - but no longer, it
appears.)
Cicero
=========================================
Have a look at the cam and dowel fasteners from Screwfix (suggested
elsewhere in this thread by TMH). These are frequently used by
manufacturers and they're really quite easy to use provided that you can
measure accurately and drill vertically. They're perfectly secure in
chipboard or MDF.
Axminster (and Wolf at a much higher price) sell a jig to use your hand
drill for all the required holes.
The Natural Philosopher
> Alan wrote:
>
>> This must have come up before but I can't find info in the FAQ or the
>> wiki.
>>
>> I'm going to make up some cabinets out of contiboard using biscuit joints.
>>
>> 1. Will ordinary PVA wood glue work at the corners (i.e. edge to face) or
>> will I need to skim off the melamine surface with a router first?
>>
>> 2. The advice I've seen is for biscuits every 12" - any problems in having
>> them closer (how close)?
>>
>> 3. Any better ideas than biscuits?
>>
>> Alan
>>
>
> Aaargh! I thought this wouldn't be much of as problem - now I'm not sure
> what's best to do.
>
> I was going to go for B&Q's 18mm wood-effect (sic) chipboard but the
> consensus appears to be that chipboard is a no-go without screws or blocks.
> maybe I'd better rethink and go for 18mm mdf and just paint the stuff.
>
and into the chip. AND its not that strong, but its strong ENOUGH.
The key thing is that a cabinet is more strong by virtue of its shape
than by a quality glue join. If you drill sides carefully to about 10mm
depth and use custom glue dowels and PVA into the 'end grain' of the
bits that fit between that's good enough PROVIDED you have a back to
stop the thing parallelogramming. On a normal crap contiboard flat kit,
that's hardboard painted black tacked on with ultra small tacks..its
better to use screws though. Or if you can mill as lot in the board and
slide the back in with glue, that's best of all really.
Or you can use ultra long screws through the sides and those plastic
covers on..
> The thing I've always had against had against mdf is how to seal the cut
> edges. I've seen suggestions using 20% PVA, 50% PVA, acrylic primer - any
> other ideas.
A lot of the above. like 3 coats of primer.
If MDF will work, it makes a decent enough cabinet. Its just finishing
it as you know.
I've painted it and tiled it. It works but again, its hard to make a
decent join without an internal batten, Still if its painted, simply
screw it and glue it..you CAN screw into the end grain. It aint
brilliant, but it holds till the glue dries. Then use plastic wood or
car body filler over the screws.
The Natural Philosopher
Bloody good idea I've got lots lying around from flatpacks with extras..:-)
> Cic.
>
js.b1
> I'm going to make up some cabinets out of contiboard
I've snipped it there...
1 - Strength is going to come from the backboard (white-faced
hardboard)
You can staple the backboard to the rear - limited strength.
You can inset the backboard inside the rear - much stronger, which
means you lose a bit of depth.
2 - Extend the insetting of the backboard further - so you can fit
rear corner pieces.
Sufficient to permit say screw or whatever fastening method you want,
at the expense of 20mm lost depth.
3 - The front is more difficult, but dowel jointing is viable - there
are cheap kits.
The most basic kit consists of a centre-point drill, copper peg to
mark & dowels.
The better kits involve an adjustable metal jig which gives the
(really) required precision.
Some kitchen cupboard designs use a "frame" at the front of the
cupboard.
Basically like a window frame inside a cupboard, aesthetically it
works ok and makes the selection of possible fasteners much easier.
Alternatively, "consider off the shelf" mouldings which you cut, jig,
slot in panel, assemble. This wastes more space compared to the
"contiboard cupboards" however it is vastly stronger, longer life and
better made. You could mix MDF & real wood here - like most low-mid
furniture, without it looking as such.
Can you not tolerate screws top & bottom? IE, is there no angle at
which they are invisible. Alternatively matching adhesive strip to
hide countersunk screws.
Cicero
> On May 1, 8:43�am, Alan <a...@nospam.fudokai.org> wrote:
>> I'm going to make up some cabinets out of contiboard
>
> I've snipped it there...
>
>
> 1 - Strength is going to come from the backboard (white-faced hardboard)
>
> You can staple the backboard to the rear - limited strength. You can inset
> the backboard inside the rear - much stronger, which means you lose a bit
> of depth.
>
>
> 2 - Extend the insetting of the backboard further - so you can fit rear
> corner pieces.
>
> Sufficient to permit say screw or whatever fastening method you want, at
> the expense of 20mm lost depth.
>
>
<snipped>
==========================================
A hardboard backboard is really not good enough by itself to produce
rigidity. Full width bracing (at least 3" deep)top and bottom, of the same
material as the main panels is the way to go. This is also much stronger
and neater than corner pieces.
Stuart Noble
> On Sat, 02 May 2009 15:30:31 -0700, js.b1 wrote:
>
>> On May 1, 8:43 am, Alan <a...@nospam.fudokai.org> wrote:
>>> I'm going to make up some cabinets out of contiboard
>> I've snipped it there...
>>
>>
>> 1 - Strength is going to come from the backboard (white-faced hardboard)
>>
>> You can staple the backboard to the rear - limited strength. You can inset
>> the backboard inside the rear - much stronger, which means you lose a bit
>> of depth.
>>
>>
>> 2 - Extend the insetting of the backboard further - so you can fit rear
>> corner pieces.
>>
>> Sufficient to permit say screw or whatever fastening method you want, at
>> the expense of 20mm lost depth.
>>
>>
> <snipped>
> ==========================================
>
> A hardboard backboard is really not good enough by itself to produce
> rigidity. Full width bracing (at least 3" deep)top and bottom, of the same
> material as the main panels is the way to go. This is also much stronger
> and neater than corner pieces.
>
> Cic.
>
Screwfix chipboard screws (indistinguishable from plasterboard screws?)
are pretty good, and don't swell the ends of shelves. The black
screwheads don't look too bad either
Alan
> Alan wrote:
>> Alan wrote:
>>
>>> This must have come up before but I can't find info in the FAQ or the
>>> wiki.
>>>
>>> I'm going to make up some cabinets out of contiboard using biscuit
>>> joints.
>>>
>>> 1. Will ordinary PVA wood glue work at the corners (i.e. edge to face)
>>> or will I need to skim off the melamine surface with a router first?
>>>
>>> 2. The advice I've seen is for biscuits every 12" - any problems in
>>> having them closer (how close)?
>>>
>>> 3. Any better ideas than biscuits?
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>
>> Aaargh! I thought this wouldn't be much of as problem - now I'm not sure
>> what's best to do.
>>
>> I was going to go for B&Q's 18mm wood-effect (sic) chipboard but the
>> consensus appears to be that chipboard is a no-go without screws or
>> blocks. maybe I'd better rethink and go for 18mm mdf and just paint the
>> stuff.
>>
> Oh, its on with DOWELS. Its just that you MUST get through the melamine,
> and into the chip. AND its not that strong, but its strong ENOUGH.
I've tried dowels in the past (only using a cheapo dowelling system tho')
and the dowels never seemed to be /exactly/ in line no matter how careful I
thought I was which involved trying to force the bits together with a a big
hammer :-).
>
> The key thing is that a cabinet is more strong by virtue of its shape
> than by a quality glue join. If you drill sides carefully to about 10mm
> depth and use custom glue dowels and PVA into the 'end grain' of the
> bits that fit between that's good enough PROVIDED you have a back to
> stop the thing parallelogramming. On a normal crap contiboard flat kit,
> that's hardboard painted black tacked on with ultra small tacks..its
> better to use screws though. Or if you can mill as lot in the board and
> slide the back in with glue, that's best of all really.
>
>
> Or you can use ultra long screws through the sides and those plastic
> covers on..
>
>> The thing I've always had against had against mdf is how to seal the cut
>> edges. I've seen suggestions using 20% PVA, 50% PVA, acrylic primer - any
>> other ideas.
>
> A lot of the above. like 3 coats of primer.
>
> If MDF will work, it makes a decent enough cabinet. Its just finishing
> it as you know.
Yep, I was trying to avoid the paint solution ...
If I paint the stuff in the house, SWMBO will gripe about the smell (even
with water-based paint) and the garage, the only other available space, is
small.
Oh well - these things are sent to try us :-)
>
> I've painted it and tiled it. It works but again, its hard to make a
> decent join without an internal batten, Still if its painted, simply
> screw it and glue it..you CAN screw into the end grain. It aint
> brilliant, but it holds till the glue dries. Then use plastic wood or
> car body filler over the screws.
>
>>
>> Thanks for all the input.
>>
>> Alan
Again, thanks
The Medway Handyman
>
> Aaargh! I thought this wouldn't be much of as problem - now I'm not
> sure what's best to do.
Unless you need custom sizes it might be worth looking at Wickes 'Miami'
range. You can buy a 1000mm base unit for �35. Comes with plain white
doors, but I guess you would have to sort doors if you made your own units.
When you look at the cost of the Contiboard, hinges, fittings, legs etc its
not much cheaper making your own.
The Medway Handyman
The Medway Handyman
Got a part number for those Stuart? Been looking for a solution to that
problem.
Stuart Noble
I'd forgotten they're listed as "carcass screws"
Roger Mills
Alan <a...@nospam.fudokai.org> wrote:
>
> I've tried dowels in the past (only using a cheapo dowelling system
> tho') and the dowels never seemed to be /exactly/ in line no matter
> how careful I thought I was which involved trying to force the bits
> together with a a big hammer :-).
>
I've got one of these
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/15645/Drill-Bits/Dowelling/Wolfcraft-Dowel-Jig-Kit
and it seems to work quite well.
First you use the jig to drill the holes in the end grain. You fit dowels
into those holes, and then lay the boards on top of each other. You position
the jig over the dowels you've just fitted, and then use it to drill the
holes in the mating piece - which end up in exactly the right place.
It pays to experiment a bit in order to refine the technique!
The Medway Handyman
Cheers, I'll give them a try. What like are they on 18mm MDF? Do they
cause the edge to bulge?
Stuart Noble
I always pilot drill mdf. A bit too dense for any screw I would think.
gunsmith
Indeed Dave. We both know biscuits don't make much sense when joining
any material with a close kinship to weatabix either! My comment on
accuracy was made having personally mitre biscuit jointed much more
homogenious material. Anything less than precision looks 'orrid.
The Medway Handyman
Weatabix Wood - love it :-)
js.b1
- http://www.joint-genie.co.uk/buy.html
Do a google for many others, some are alloy, some are steel.
There are videos on the websites to evaluate or at least see if dowel
jointing will provide a viable solution. Accuracy is everything re
dowel jointing if you want perfect jointed edges.
Alan
> One other dowel jointing kit system...
> - http://www.joint-genie.co.uk/buy.html
Hmm - looks to be the mutts nuts - at least on the video
A bit on the pricey side but then precision tools are never cheap.
Anyone got one, tried one, pros / cons.
Man at B&Q
The same way you will seal the cut edges on the contiboard.
MBQ
Stuart Noble
Wouldn't be any visible cut edges, would there?
Man at B&Q
I don't think it has anything to do with visibility.
MBQ