Question for the electricians in the group...
Jayesh Patel
I've just had my bathroom done and in the process have had a shaver socket
installed.
I also clip my own hair and previously i've trailed an extension from the
landing into the
bathroom into which I plug in my clippers.
Now I have a shaver socket in the bathroom I'd like to plug the clippers
into it directly,
so the question(s) are:
* can i use a travel adapter to allow me to plug the 3-pin plug of the
clippers into the
shaver socket? Specifically item # 982/7459 at http://www.argos.co.uk
If not this item then please recommend one.
or
* can I simply cut the 3-pin plug off and wire in a 2-pin shaver style plug?
Personally I'd like to go for the first option, but over to you....
TIA,
jay
David W.E. Roberts
"Jayesh Patel" <j...@a.b.c> wrote in message
news:bb5h1b$hrf$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
my first reaction is that
(a) you shouldn't do what you are currently doing
(b) you shouldn't do what you are proposing to do
because
(a) you should never bring an extension lead into the bathroom
(b) shaver sockets are for shavers only (it says so on the socket) - given
that I have my Braun electric toothbrush plugged into the shaver socket but
this device is specifically designed to be in a bathroom and run off a
shaver socket (correct moulded plug fitted).
Your trimmer is obviously not designed for use in the bathroom because it
has a 3 pin plug.
Mike Ring
A lot depends on your clippers. The earth pin may be a fake, simply there
to open the shutters on a 3 pin plug, and not wired.
Somewhere on the device, in among the writing and specs, or on the box or
instructions you may find a symbol like a double box (one square inside a
bigger one).
This means double insulated, and unless someone knows better, in which case
we will both be told very shortly, it is safe to use with the adaptor.
I am not sure about current limiting, shaver outlets are designed to allow
very low power, but I think clippers use pretty insignifant amps
Mike R
Jayesh Patel
"David W.E. Roberts" <nos...@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:bb5i0h$62q5f$1...@ID-122774.news.dfncis.de...
my hair in the bathroom, throw the clippers out of the bathroom (along with
the extension lead!) and jump straight into the shower.
It really is a hassle getting clippings out of a carpet when you can instead
just sweep them up!
N. Thornton
> I've just had my bathroom done and in the process have had a shaver socket
Hi
None of your options are fully satisfactory. The lesser evil would be
using the travel adaptor. Cant recommend it, but I would avoid doing
the other 2.
If the clipper is class 2 youve got no worries. If its class 1 you
have, and shouldnt use it in bathroom at all. The shaver socket
greatly reduces the risks associated with using class 1 items there.
I'm assuming the clipper power draw doesnt exceed the shaver supply
rating: if it does, expect a meltdown/fire.
Regards, NT
David Kemper
"Jayesh Patel" <j...@a.b.c> wrote in message
news:bb5h1b$hrf$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
I repair clippers as part of my business (maintaining hairdressing
equipment).
Most clippers (tending to all clippers) are double insulated and draw
fractions of an amp.
The last clippers I came across which were not double insulated were the
Wahl Senior clippers which have an aluminium lower casing and *must* be
earthed. These were a quite expensive clipper, intended for professional
use, and have been off the market for about 5 years. Every other
clipper, and especially those available to the domestic market, I would
expect to be double insulated. Those sold in the UK typically come with
a three pin plug fitted, but the mains lead is also available with a two
pin plug moulded on it for when the same clippers are sold in Europe. I
can see no reason why a two pin plug or a mains lead with a plug on it
could not be fitted and used in a shaver socket assuming that the shaver
socket can deliver a minimum of 1 amp and with the proviso that the plug
must have partially shrouded pins.
As a final justification clippers are often called shavers!
However:
Using an extension in the bathroom is definitely a no no!
Using clippers in the bathroom is also risky as they are not in any way
water resistant. I advise against it.
A shaver socket will not always prevent you getting a shock if you get
them wet AFAIAC.
Some shaver sockets are not isolated through a transformer.
My advice: Buy a cordless clipper to use in the bathroom and put the
charger somewhere safer than the bathroom.
Finally if you throw your clippers out the door before you jump in the
shower, don't be surprised if they don't work very well afterwards.
Please don't call me to fix them if you are going to mistreat them. ;-p
David Kemper
Andrew Gabriel
"David Kemper" <david....@ntlworld.com> writes:
> I can see no reason why a two pin plug or a mains lead with a plug on it
> could not be fitted and used in a shaver socket assuming that the shaver
> socket can deliver a minimum of 1 amp and with the proviso that the plug
> must have partially shrouded pins.
Bathroom shaver sockets are 15W max.
Mains clippers I've seen are something like 60-100W.
--
Andrew Gabriel
David Kemper
"Andrew Gabriel" <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bb67mi$9ep$1...@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...
> In article <bb663v$64q5u$1...@id-117281.news.dfncis.de>,
> "David Kemper" <david....@ntlworld.com> writes:
> > I can see no reason why a two pin plug or a mains lead with a plug
on it
> > could not be fitted and used in a shaver socket assuming that the
shaver
> > socket can deliver a minimum of 1 amp and with the proviso that the
plug
> > must have partially shrouded pins.
>
> Bathroom shaver sockets are 15W max.
Ah! Fair cop, I didn't know that, I assumed they would be nearer 2 amps.
I don't see shaver sockets in hairdressers. I have seen some strip
lights around which have a shaver socket built in which is not suitable
for the bathroom due to non isolation of the socket. If the OP has one
of those ( and he shouldn't!) it would be capable of powering a clipper.
> Mains clippers I've seen are something like 60-100W.
Sounds reasonable, I'll check later today as I have loads of broken ones
in the workshop. Mainly ones which have been dropped on the floor by
their owner. Clippers don't like that much.
My advice to the OP re getting a rechargeable clipper still stands as
being safe and easy and not very expensive. Less than £40 will buy a
really decent rechargeable clipper. £20 buys a cheaper one which won't
work as well but will do occassional trims. Anyone looking for
profesional clippers can email me and I can tell you where to buy them.
I don't sell them, I fix some of them and turn loads away as not worth
repairing. If anyone is in Kent there is a factory shop at one of the
importers where seconds and remanufactured stock is sold off cheaply.
200 miles away from me so I don't visit very often.
HTH
David Kemper
Dave Plowman
David Kemper <david....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Some shaver sockets are not isolated through a transformer.
Then these aren't designed for a bathroom.
--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Andy Wade
<bb5i0h$62q5f$1...@ID-122774.news.dfncis.de>...
> Your trimmer is obviously not designed for use in the bathroom because
it
> has a 3 pin plug.
That doesn't necessarily follow. It may have a 3-pin plug, but does it
use an earth connection (Class 1 construction)?
If: (a) the appliance is Class 2 (no earth, 2-core flex), AND
(b) its consumption is not more than 20VA,
then I can see no harm in using it in a bathroom, provided that
reasonable care is taken to avoid it getting splashed.
The 20VA limit is the rating of the isolating transformer fitted in
bathroom shaver points.
--
Andy
David W.E. Roberts
"Andy Wade" <spamb...@ajwade.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:01c32751$5a3a24a0$LocalHost@dog40...
Andy,
knew I would get into trouble with the comment about 3 pin plugs:-)
However being double insulated does not always (AFAIK) equate to being
suitable for regular use in a bathroom.
As you said "provided that reasonable care is taken to avoid it getting
splashed".
Wouldn't this also apply to extension leads, in fact almost any electrical
device?
DIYers use power tools in the bathroom when fitting stuff, and obviously use
an extension lead, but there is an awareness of risk and they don't usually
do this when they have just bathed or showered (or are about to).
I thought the rules were to protect people from inadvertent contact between
electricity and water and themselves (despite them trying to take reasonable
care).
You can't trust bathrooms to have everything earth bonded either - depends
when the bathroom was installed, and by whom :-)
Should you not, as a matter of general safety, only use devices which are
rated for use in Zone 2 or 1 (presumably with protection against water and
moisture ingress) within these zones?
I may be being over cautious, but I go with the other posters who suggest a
rechargeable clipper with the charging unit outside the bathroom.
Digressing a bit - please correct me where I am wrong - double insulation
removes the need for an earth wire by making sure that the casing (which the
user holds) is totally insulated from the electrics so that if there is a
fault the casing cannot become 'live'. However loads of power tools
(especially garden ones) are double insulated but still carry warnings about
using them in wet conditions. Makes me wonder if there are circumstances
where water (suitably mixed with impurities) could become a conductor
between the electrics and the user in the case of heavy splashing or partial
immersion. I know my toothbrush is safe because it is battery driven and
completely sealed - it can be rinsed under a running tap - but double
insulated devices often have ventilation for the workings and so water could
get in. Even if there is no shock, isn't there a risk of damaging a device
by using it in a humid location if the moisture can get inside?
Cheers
Dave r
wanderer
<snip>
> As you said "provided that reasonable care is taken to avoid it getting
> splashed".
> Wouldn't this also apply to extension leads, in fact almost any electrical
> device?
> DIYers use power tools in the bathroom when fitting stuff, and obviously
use
> an extension lead, but there is an awareness of risk
I do sometimes wonder about the awareness of risk when I read some of the
posts here. And awareness of risk offers no guarantee against moments of
utter stupidity! I had to attend a fatality once, a highly competent
electrical contractor, many years experience, obviously well aware of the
dangers. A hot summer's day, working in commercial premises, altering the
installation with parts of it still alive, shirt open to the waist, and he
leaned against a live conductor at chest level......
Double insulation offers little or no protection against possible earth
leakage currents throught you, the user. The primary protection within the
bathroom is - or should be - the bonding, together with the more-or-less
complete removal of electrical equipment that might give you an electric
shock. If a fault develops, the idea is that you and any earthy metalwork
are all at the same voltage to 'true' earth, so you don't get a shock.
Owain
| Bathroom shaver sockets are 15W max.
| Mains clippers I've seen are something like 60-100W.
My Wahl 300 clippers are 230V 10W double insulated.
I have exactly the same problem as the OP and use an extension lead from a
30mA RCD-protected socket.
Worth bearing in mind that most other countries in Europe allow RCD
protected sockets in bathrooms.
Owain
David Kemper
"Owain" <owai...@stirlingcity.co.uk> wrote in message
news:105431043...@iris.uk.clara.net...
> "Andrew Gabriel" wrote
> | Bathroom shaver sockets are 15W max.
> | Mains clippers I've seen are something like 60-100W.
>
> My Wahl 300 clippers are 230V 10W double insulated.
Spot On! I measured a Wahl Super Taper 2000 clipper on a watt meter
today at a salon and it was 10W.
That particular clipper has a slightly more powerful "motor" than other
similar clippers (which is why I chose that one to check) and other than
rotary motor clippers, I wouldn't expect any other clipper available for
Human use to draw any more power than that model does.
OTOH if the OP is using horse clippers, all bets are off..............
> I have exactly the same problem as the OP and use an extension lead
from a
> 30mA RCD-protected socket.
Rechargeable seems a better solution. Have you ever seen the mains lead
to a clipper catch fire where it enters the casing? I see the result
quite often, and have had it happen to me a few times when looking for
faults. The cause is metal fatigue due to constant flexing of the cable
causing a break in one conductor. This results in arcing inside the
cable which in turn melts the insulation between conductors. Result:
flames shoot out of the cable just by the users hand. The usual reaction
of the person holding the clipper is to drop or throw it. Shame about
the bath full of water next to them...
>
> Worth bearing in mind that most other countries in Europe allow RCD
> protected sockets in bathrooms.
Europe is weird though!
David Kemper
wanderer
news:bb86og$6pcsm$1...@ID-117281.news.dfncis.de...
<snip>
> Europe is weird though!
>
I didn't want to say that......
:))
Dave
So with this isolation transformer in place and the output of it floating
with regard to earth, why is there a risk of shock? I would have thought
that because the transformer is there, there would be no chance of a shock,
or have I got it wrong and the isolation transformer's insulation could
break down?
Dave
Andy Wade
> Double insulation offers little or no protection against possible earth
> leakage currents throught you, the user.
True though that may be in some circumstances, I think it's missing the
point here. Everyone seems to have latched onto 'double insulation'[1]
as providing the additional shock protection - but it isn't. The
isolating transformer in the shaver supply unit does that. The source is
electrically floating, so even if you managed to connect yourself between
the internals of the clippers and earth, no significant current could
flow. To get a shock you'd to connect yourself between the 'brown' &
'blue' sides [2] of the supply to the appliance - something which is much
less likely to happen. The only relevance of Class 2 is that the shaver
outlet has no provision for an earth connection, thus ruling out using a
Class 1 appliance in this way.
As an aside it's probably worth mentioning that BS 7671 does now allow
provision (in the fixed wiring) for connecting portable appliances in
bathrooms. Such connection must be 'outside the zones' and cannot be a
socket outlet (i.e. must be a fused connection unit or similar). If the
appliance could be used in zone 3 then it has to be fed via a 30mA RCD.
For more details see the table on page 59 of the OSG.
[1] The term 'double insulated' in deprecated as a way of describing what
should properly be called Class 2 equipment. Double insulation is only
one way of meeting the standards, reinforced insulation being another.
[2] You can't call them live & neutral here, 'cos they aren't.
--
Andy
Dave Plowman
Andy Wade <spamb...@ajwade.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> As an aside it's probably worth mentioning that BS 7671 does now allow
> provision (in the fixed wiring) for connecting portable appliances in
> bathrooms. Such connection must be 'outside the zones' and cannot be a
> socket outlet (i.e. must be a fused connection unit or similar). If the
> appliance could be used in zone 3 then it has to be fed via a 30mA RCD.
> For more details see the table on page 59 of the OSG.
I've got a 13 amp socket in the bathroom fed off a large isolating
transformer which I use for a hairdrier. Wonder what the regs make of that?
--
*I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.
Andy Wade
>
> I've got a 13 amp socket in the bathroom fed off a large isolating
> transformer which I use for a hairdrier. Wonder what the regs make of
that?
Socket outlet: not allowed. If you wired the drier into a FCU it would
comply, subject to zoning.
--
Andy
Andrew McKay
<dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>I've got a 13 amp socket in the bathroom fed off a large isolating
>transformer which I use for a hairdrier. Wonder what the regs make of that?
I imagine the electrician who wired that up would be subject to
various proceedings which he'd probably rather not go through.
Andrew
Do you have a web site? Would you like to know
if it becomes unavailable? Check out KazMonitor
at http://www.kazmax.co.uk/OurSoftware.asp
Dave Plowman
Andrew McKay <E-7B777...@kazmax.co.uk> wrote:
> >I've got a 13 amp socket in the bathroom fed off a large isolating
> >transformer which I use for a hairdrier. Wonder what the regs make of
> >that?
> I imagine the electrician who wired that up would be subject to various
> proceedings which he'd probably rather not go through.
It was me. And I'm well aware of the regs. But don't accept them
regardless in my own house.
Would some kind soul explain the difference in principle between a
transformer isolated 13 amp socket, and a shaver type?
--
*Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.
Owain
| "Owain" wrote
| Spot On! I measured a Wahl Super Taper 2000 clipper on a watt meter
| Rechargeable seems a better solution. Have you ever seen the mains lead
| reaction ... is to drop or throw it. Shame about the bath full of water
| next to them...
Mine don't get anything like the (ab)use they would get in a barber's, and I
don't use them in the bathroom when there's any water around.
And if I die, I wasn't that fond of life anyway.
Owain
Andrew McKay
<dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>It was me. And I'm well aware of the regs. But don't accept them
>regardless in my own house.
The regs are not actually legally enforceable in the UK. However in
the event that your house burnt down and the wiring arrangement was
implicated then the insurance company would probably be on safe
grounds to refuse to pay rebuilding costs. It would be similar to
throwing a lighted match through the window in order to claim on the
insurance.
That's my understanding anyway. And insurance companies notoriously
have bigger budgets to afford teams of solicitors than the claimants.
wanderer
"Andrew McKay" <E-7B777...@kazmax.co.uk> wrote in message
news:83mhdvg8u0a250rk0...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 31 May 2003 16:19:57 +0100, Dave Plowman
> <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >It was me. And I'm well aware of the regs. But don't accept them
> >regardless in my own house.
>
> The regs are not actually legally enforceable in the UK.
This is a moot point. The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity
Regulations 2002 give some very broad-brush requirements for the safety
requirements for consumers' installations. They allow any distributor to
withold a supply of electricity until they are satisfied that the
installation meets the requirements of the appropriate British Standard or
the ESQC Regulations themselves.
However in
> the event that your house burnt down and the wiring arrangement was
> implicated then the insurance company would probably be on safe
> grounds to refuse to pay rebuilding costs. It would be similar to
> throwing a lighted match through the window in order to claim on the
> insurance.
It's perhaps more appropriate that DIYers don't immediately pass straight to
the detail parts of the IEE regs and actually take the time to read the
first two or three sections!
Andrew McKay
wrote:
>This is a moot point. The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity
>Regulations 2002 give some very broad-brush requirements for the safety
>requirements for consumers' installations. They allow any distributor to
>withold a supply of electricity until they are satisfied that the
>installation meets the requirements of the appropriate British Standard or
>the ESQC Regulations themselves.
No argument with that. I got my C&G2381 certificate a few weeks ago,
and the course tutor was at pains to advise that the regs are not a
legal requirement. And one of the questions in the exam pointed that
out too.
>It's perhaps more appropriate that DIYers don't immediately pass straight to
>the detail parts of the IEE regs and actually take the time to read the
>first two or three sections!
Agreed. Though the regs tend not to be light bedtime reading. The On
Site Guide is helpful in that respect.
Dave Plowman
Andrew McKay <E-7B777...@kazmax.co.uk> wrote:
> The regs are not actually legally enforceable in the UK. However in
> the event that your house burnt down and the wiring arrangement was
> implicated then the insurance company would probably be on safe
> grounds to refuse to pay rebuilding costs. It would be similar to
> throwing a lighted match through the window in order to claim on the
> insurance.
Nice try, but they'd have to prove it was to blame - by gross overloading
or whatever and this can't happen. I also have a similar transformer in
the workshop which is part of the house. Does this invalidate the
insurance too?
--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.
Dave
"Dave Plowman" <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4bfb22fcbb...@argonet.co.uk...
>
> I've got a 13 amp socket in the bathroom fed off a large isolating
> transformer which I use for a hairdrier. Wonder what the regs make of
that?
You have that much hair at your age? ;-)
Dave
Andrew McKay
<dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>Nice try, but they'd have to prove it was to blame - by gross overloading
>or whatever and this can't happen. I also have a similar transformer in
>the workshop which is part of the house. Does this invalidate the
>insurance too?
No idea.
Dave Plowman
Dave <dave...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> > I've got a 13 amp socket in the bathroom fed off a large isolating
> > transformer which I use for a hairdrier. Wonder what the regs make of
> that?
> You have that much hair at your age? ;-)
Yup. It's one of the few parts with about the same count as when I was
young. And I use the socket for a clipper too. ;-)
--
*A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory *