Voltage optimisers

[ARW]

Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.

Not much to it but I am puzzled.

I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.

So where does the 10% come into this?


--
Adam

[GB]

Which make and model?

[jrwal...@gmail.com]

For a pure resistive load, the "power saving" will be the ratio of
the squares of the voltages, so it is fairly close to 10% for
those voltages.

Whether enough of the load is resistive and not constant power
(switch-mode) or thermostat controlled for this device to be
useful is another matter.

John

[Brian Gaff]

I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?
Brian

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[GB]

And bear in mind that the larger resistive loads may be things like
heaters, where there's no saving through reducing the power. The user
just has to wait longer for them to heat up.

Not quite snake oil, but probably vastly over-hyped.


>
> John
>

[whisky-dave]

I think that is what happened here, someone who knows little heard thata 10% saving could be made on electricity so opted for this type of thing and perhaps that's why we only get 210-220V suppy.


>
>
> >
> > John
> >

[Harry Bloomfield]

Brian Gaff explained :

> I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?

It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply
draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights
will be needed to make up for the darkness.

The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

[GB]

I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less
power. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10%
voltage on it.

[whisky-dave]

But you forget the most important things, those suggesting such things and carrying them through get the adulation from all those that think money has been spent rather than wasted and it loks good on paper and anywhere else the real world doesn't get factored in. :)

[Harry Bloomfield]

It happens that GB formulated :

> I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less power

Yes, but then they would have to run for longer. At best, no advantage
at all.

[Andy Burns]

GB wrote:

> Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>
>> It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
>> electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
>> you 10% on your bill
>

> I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less
> power.

Hence do less cooling per unit time and run for longer until the
thermostat kicks out again?

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Friday, 4 May 2018 16:54:06 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
> Hence do less cooling per unit time and run for longer

and so wear out more quickly?

Owain

[Andy Burns]

spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Hence do less cooling per unit time and run for longer
>
> and so wear out more quickly?

Debatable - hard work for shorter time v.s. light work for longer time?

[Fredxx]

I think most fridges already do something of this sort. I doubt there
will be any overall saving.

> But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10%
> voltage on it.

Quite.

[Cynic]

I suspect these devices are sold in the same manner as "fuelsavers" that were marketed some time ago. They used to introduce a delay between thermostat calling for heat and the burner starting.
The boiler water cooled a bit more which resulted in the burner having to run longer. Actual savings were in the mind of the purchaser.

[Andrew]

On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:

Was it made by Russ Andrews ?

[Part timer]

Been on here before:

‎https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?hl=en-GB&fromgroups#!topic/uk.d-i-y/Y-HbgpR8lXA

Note second message in the thread!

[ARW]

http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/

the EMH100.

--
Adam

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <pchvfi$nt1$1...@dont-email.me>,

GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> writes:
> On 04/05/2018 16:27, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>> Brian Gaff explained :
>>> I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?
>>
>> It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
>> electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
>> you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
>> take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
>> lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply
>> draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights
>> will be needed to make up for the darkness.
>>
>> The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.

Yes, they were pretty much discredited when one of the
manufacturers tried to get them made mandatory in homes.

> I think fridge motors might operate at the lower voltage and draw less
> power. But, I'd want a separate circuit for the kettle that has +10%
> voltage on it.

Fridge motors are already operating with barely enough torque
to start them. Reducing the voltage runs the risk of burning
them out with a locked rotor current. (They do have protection
against this, but eventually your luck may run out.)

More intelligent compressor controllers reduce the power once
started, but I'm not sure how widespread they are in domestic
fridges yet. At one point, there were plug-in modules which
did this for fridge/freezers, but I haven't seen them for years
now, which may mean they were worse than just a bad idea.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[ARW]

The VPhase I believe regulated the voltage to 220V. The one I fitted
today has no such mechanism. It basically is a tapped transformer that
gives 6, 8 or 10% voltage (or claims to) voltage drop.

--
Adam

[Andy Burns]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> More intelligent compressor controllers reduce the power once
> started, but I'm not sure how widespread they are in domestic
> fridges yet.

I think mine has a 1/8 hp compressor, and it seems to take ~90W when
running, so not much sign of anything being saved (mind you it's only A
rated not A+++++++++ or whatever rating they're up to now)

[Johnny B Good]

That was a 6% drop. Perhaps the other 4% kicks in at maximum rated load
when leakage inductance and transformer winding resistance volt drop take
their toll?

It sounds to me like it's a basic, if BFO[1], autotransformer. It also
sounds like it's intended to be installed between the meter and CU to
reduce the whole house supply, presumably to compensate for a PSU line
voltage that's consistently on the high side of the nominal 240v used in
the UK.

If it included automatic voltage adjustment to compensate for variations
in supply voltage, it would make sense. If it's just an autotransformer,
prewired to provide a fixed 10% reduction as your post implies, it
doesn't make much sense since the proper solution is to complain to your
PSU about the overvoltage and arrange for them to adjust the supply back
to the nominal 240v.

However, 251v is within the +10% upper limit for a notional (harmonised)
230v supply upon which all domestic kit, excluding incandescent lamps, is
optimised. If the supply never exceeds 253vac using an accurate
voltmeter, then it's within tolerance and unless the supply regularly
exceeds this, quite frankly, I can't really see the point of inserting
such a BFO autotransformer between the meter and the CU.

If this has been installed in the mistaken belief that it will reduce
electrical consumption by household appliances, as almost everyone else
has pointed out, it won't. Indeed the additional losses, even if quite
tiny, will increase consumption negating any small gain made with
incandescent lamps which will become noticeably dimmer, yet at the same
time may last twice as long as normal (so, not all bad news if you don't
minder the dimmer look).

If the average line voltage is above nominal, the 10% reduction
shouldn't be a problem to white goods appliances which use electric
motors, especially if they're modern 'Harmonised' appliances. However,
too little voltage can cause motors to overheat and burn out, especially
during startup surges with compressor loads such as fridges and freezers
and, to a lesser extent, washing machine drum motors.

Kit that uses smpsus such as TV sets, desktop computers and the like,
will automatically draw exactly the same power, typically over a supply
voltage that ranges from a low of 186vac to a high of 265vac. Some of
this kit may, like universal mains voltage laptop chargers and other
battery chargers, function over the range of 90vac to the 265vac limit,
drawing pretty much an almost constant power level according to demand
from their electronic loads.

Most appliances that rely on heating elements for their function will
simply use a longer duty cycle controlled by a thermostat. So, again, no
net saving in energy consumption there. Even electric kettles will simply
take longer to boil before their anti-boil dry sensor conveniently
switches the kettle off as a kindness to the user. The more protracted
heating up time will allow a little more heat to escape increasing the
energy consumption slightly as it will in the case of every other
appliance that uses energy for heating.

In short, if this "Voltage Optimiser" has been sold to your customer on
the basis of reducing electrical consumption, then it has been sold as a
"Snake Oil Solution" to a non-existent problem.

[1] Assuming a 10% drop on a 250v 100A supply, you'd need a 2.5KVA rated
autotransformer which would weigh in, afaicr, at around 25 to 30Kg which
in a domestic installation is one Big Fuck Off autotransformer! :-)

--
Johnny B Good

[ARW]

The phone battery was dead or I would have taken photos.

Basically (my guess) it's just a toroidal with 3 tap offs. Not sure what
it weighed but it was impossible for me to hold it to the wall with one
hand to mark out the fixing holes.

I don't think that money is a problem for this customer and I doubt that
he is after a 10% electricity saving (brand new HSE Discovery for the
wife to take the kids to school etc [1]). He asked for it fitting, we do
not suggest them, that is probably why this is the first one I have ever
fitted.

My other guess is that he has read that it could make appliances last
longer and I know that he was aware that he has 250V to the house. I
tested it when his washing machine and iron blew up on the same day a
couple of months ago - although neither of them blowing up were related
to the incoming voltage.

[1] And a full set of brand new alloy wheels with winter tyres.


--
Adam

[tabb...@gmail.com]

10%? Check out photonic induction's youtube vid overvolting kettles. ISTR he got one upto about 10kW.


NT

[Johnny B Good]

Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame!

<http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/>

Interestingly, they're using the upper 'harmonised' tolerance limit of
the UK 240v supply specification to scare their marks into buying this
'Snake Oil Solution'.

As per any advertising 'blurb' they're careful not to make any definite
savings claims, using weasel words like "could" in place of "will". Also,
they've been careful with their choice of appliances to avoid anything
that automatically draws the same power regardless of mains voltage over
voltage ranges well in excess of the widest of mains supply tolerances
(no desktop PCs or laptops running off their charging brick) as well as
anything with a thermostat (other than for the dishwasher (full cycle)
where it's quite telling that this demonstrates the least savings).

It's been said that "Advertising" is the art of lying by omission. Boy,
do these bastards advertise through their teeth!

--
Johnny B Good

[ARW]

Oddly enough they also had input into this

http://gwenergy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/BEAMA-VOLTAGE-SYSTEMS-GUIDE-GWE.pdf

--
Adam

[ARW]

On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote:

> On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote:
>
>> On 04/05/2018 15:59, GB wrote:
>>> On 04/05/2018 15:46, ARW wrote:
>>>> Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.
>>>>
>>>> Not much to it but I am puzzled.
>>>>
>>>> I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the
>>>> optimiser is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.
>>>>
>>>> So where does the 10% come into this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Which make and model?
>>>
>>>
>> http://gwenergy.co.uk/products/eco-max-home/
>>
>> the EMH100.
>
> Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame!
>
> <http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/>
>

Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W?
Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair?
Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-)
Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3
minutes and everything is hot and steamy.
Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on
Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V
Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving





--
Adam

[harry]

On Friday, 4 May 2018 15:46:37 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
> Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.
>
> Not much to it but I am puzzled.
>
> I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
> is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.
>
> So where does the 10% come into this?
>
>

> --
> Adam

I saw a similar device that purported to save significant energy by power factor correction.
Bollix of course.

[Harry Bloomfield]

ARW was thinking very hard :

> Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W?
> Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair?
> Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-)
> Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3 minutes
> and everything is hot and steamy.
> Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on
> Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V
> Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving

I don't think anyone has mentioned, that lowering the
voltage/increasing the current, will produce more waste heat in the
internal wiring of the building. It will not be much extra waste heat,
but...

[Brian Gaff]

To be honest, I was sceptical as well. Just what is the point. I mean if you
have a very touchy device, then some kind of transformer will sort it, and
actually most touchy devices seem to work quite adequately on the end of a
surge protector and mains filter socket bar from Maplin, with or without the
pretty window. :-)

Brian

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[Brian Gaff]

That was what I thought. Do people not learn this simple fact at school any
moor, or could I go into business selling perpetual motion machines?

Brian

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"Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pchu55$g2g$1...@dont-email.me...

[ARW]

Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on resistive
loads.

--
Adam

[Brian Gaff]

Now if it were a gadget to fool the electricity meter into thinking you were
not drawing as much power that is a whole other subject to do with power
factor and phase shifts.

Brian

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"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:pchvfi$nt1$1...@dont-email.me...

[The Natural Philosopher]

Plus where you have a relatively fixed voltage drop - like a bridge
rectifier in an SMPSU, the losses will increase: more current through
that bridge for smaller power output.

All in all it is complete bollocks - only thing that will mayybe
impriove is incandescmet bulb life - who uses those?

And the transformer itself is probably only 95% eff...


--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft

[Harry Bloomfield]

ARW has brought this to us :

> Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on resistive
> loads.

True, but it will for all of the none resistive loads.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Thats not what he said

If you need to draw the same power at lower voltage, you will draw more
current.

That will mean extra losses in the wiring.

The key is the 'same power'

Many things will automatically compensate for a lower voltahege by
drawing more current.

All SMPSUS for a start.

Some regulated motors. - a synchronous motor will draw what it has to to
match the load at synchronous output speed.



--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

[The Natural Philosopher]

i.e anything with explicit or implicit feedback to stabilise the outpout
power levels


--
"If you don’t read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the
news paper, you are mis-informed."

Mark Twain

[ARW]

I would say that the resistive loads are the ones that use the most
power. So hair driers, cookers, kettles, immersion heaters etc.

I only fitted the thing because the customer wanted it. I am happy with
my 253V supply:-)

--
Adam

[T i m]

On Sat, 5 May 2018 09:20:25 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>That was what I thought. Do people not learn this simple fact at school any
>moor, or could I go into business selling perpetual motion machines?

When I was regularly running my electric car (from ~30 years ago now),
if you got into conversation with people about it (generally men) it
surprised me how many basically tried to suggest I could make use of
perpetual motion.

Anything from having a dynamo rubbing on a tyre to towing a dynamo
trailer to a wind turbine sticking out of the top.

Similar with running an electric boat and then 'having a paddle wheel
hanging out the side connected to a dynamo ...'?

All of these would have been ruled out in an instant if they had even
the most basic understanding of energy, energy transfer and
conservation.

Also the way the electrical energy was used is a factor. My EV was
only 48V and to move any conventional 4 seater vehicle through the air
and along the road (on the flat) at say 30mph would take quite a bit
of energy. I think my car was pulling something like 200A in those
circumstances and so the interconnecting cables had to be pretty big
(and therefore also heavy).

Cheers, T i m

[Johnny B Good]

As an exercise in the art of propaganda (aka, advertising) this is a
work of 'creative writing' even Joseph Goebbels would have been proud to
sign his name to.

--
Johnny B Good

[Fredxx]

On 05/05/2018 09:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/05/18 09:20, ARW wrote:
>> On 05/05/2018 08:48, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>>> ARW was thinking very hard :
>>>> Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W?
>>>> Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair?
>>>> Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-)
>>>> Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3
>>>> minutes and everything is hot and steamy.
>>>> Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on
>>>> Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V
>>>> Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA
>>>> saving
>>>
>>> I don't think anyone has mentioned, that lowering the
>>> voltage/increasing the current, will produce more waste heat in the
>>> internal wiring of the building. It will not be much extra waste
>>> heat, but...
>>
>>
>> Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on
>> resistive loads.
>>
> Thats not what he said
>
> If you need to draw the same power at lower voltage, you will draw more
> current.
>
> That will mean extra  losses in the wiring.

Except the power transferred into a resistive load would also change in
the same ratio, so no extra loss.

> The key is the 'same power'
>
> Many things will automatically compensate for a lower voltahege by
> drawing more current.
>
> All SMPSUS for a start.

Agreed, but these are generally low power.

The SMPUS might also be less stressed from working in its design range
and last longer.

> Some regulated motors. - a synchronous motor will draw what it has to to
> match the load at synchronous output speed.

Most small synchronous motors are very lossy, and designed to produce
the specced torque at lowest mains voltage, where they are likely to run
most efficiently producing least waste heat.

I don't think you have thought this through.

[ARW]

On 05/05/2018 09:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 05/05/18 09:20, ARW wrote:
>> On 05/05/2018 08:48, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>>> ARW was thinking very hard :
>>>> Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W?
>>>> Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair?
>>>> Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-)
>>>> Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3
>>>> minutes and everything is hot and steamy.
>>>> Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on
>>>> Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V
>>>> Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA
>>>> saving
>>>
>>> I don't think anyone has mentioned, that lowering the
>>> voltage/increasing the current, will produce more waste heat in the
>>> internal wiring of the building. It will not be much extra waste
>>> heat, but...
>>
>>
>> Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on
>> resistive loads.
>>
> Thats not what he said
>
> If you need to draw the same power at lower voltage, you will draw more
> current.

Tell that to a kettle.


--
Adam

[Max Demian]

On 05/05/2018 08:33, harry wrote:
> On Friday, 4 May 2018 15:46:37 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
>> Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.
>>
>> Not much to it but I am puzzled.
>>
>> I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
>> is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.
>>
>> So where does the 10% come into this?

> I saw a similar device that purported to save significant energy by power factor correction.
> Bollix of course.

Surely you want the opposite to correction. You could ensure that
everything is inductive in some way, like using heat pumps to heat
things - and they (magically) are a lot more than 100% efficient in any
case.

--
Max Demian

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 05/05/18 09:38, ARW wrote:
> On 05/05/2018 09:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>> ARW has brought this to us :
>>> Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on
>>> resistive loads.
>>
>> True, but it will for all of the none resistive loads.
>
> I would say that the resistive loads are the ones that use the most
> power. So hair driers, cookers, kettles, immersion heaters etc.

No, that is wrong.

A kettle will use MORE eletricity due to MORE losses due to the longer
time it takes to boil. Ditto immersion heaters. Cookers that have
thermostats to reach a particular tempeartuire will use no less
electricity. Hiar driers that fail to fry will use moire as it will take
longer..

> I only fitted the thing because the customer wanted it. I am happy with
> my 253V supply:-)
>

Run away now.


--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <pG4HC.234622$5v7.1...@fx02.am4>,

ARW <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> The VPhase I believe regulated the voltage to 220V. The one I fitted
> today has no such mechanism. It basically is a tapped transformer that
> gives 6, 8 or 10% voltage (or claims to) voltage drop.

We used to have an auto version of that device in TV studios in the '60s
to regulate tech mains. But could up the voltage as well as reduce it.

--
*Be nice to your kids. They'll choose your nursing home.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Fredxx submitted this idea :

>> That will mean extra losses in the wiring.
>
> Except the power transferred into a resistive load would also change in the
> same ratio, so no extra loss.

Reduced loss, but the losses will occur for additional time.

[Fredxx]

Are you saying that ohms law is broken?

I accept the loss from an increase boil time for a kettle, however the
same resistive divider (between wiring resistance and kettle resistance)
will apportion power in the same way for 230V and 250V.

[Peter Parry]

Their method of calculating any saving for their guarantee is
interesting :-

http://gwenergy.co.uk/eco-max-optimisers-savings-guarantee/

" in order to provide a formal savings guarantee we need the following
information.
12 months’ worth of electrical consumption data, in the form of:
Copies of electricity bills and half hourly metering data (if an half
hourly meter supply)
The sites voltage profile over a week, suitable data loggers are to be
installed
An accurate profile of the types of equipment used on site

Once accepted this information forms the basis of our calculations and
the savings guarantee so cannot be adjusted or disputed.
Measuring and quantifying the results of voltage optimisation can be
very difficult with dynamic loads. You cannot simply compare last
month’s bill without the optimiser, with this month’s bill with the
optimiser, as this does not take the variable into account. Generally
there are two methods for establishing the savings percentages:

The simplest option is for you to evaluate three month’s worth of
half hour data from before and after the installation of the ECO-MAX,
considering whether the site loading has changed. For example you may
have installed or removed equipment, changed your operating hours or
experienced an increase in production levels; even the weather or
other external influences may affect your electrical consumption. All
these need to be considered when assessing the savings.

Another method is to use a standard Measurement & Verification
Protocol, to perform “on-off” tests under comparable load conditions
and measure the differential in kW and/or kWh consumption between the
connected equipment when supplied via grid voltage and optimised
voltage respectively. Repeating this a number of times over a given
period will provide “snap shot” comparisons of consumption with and
without ECO-MAX. The average difference between the two figures is the
percentage reduction in energy consumption, which is used to
extrapolate the savings over a year. To measure the savings in this
way requires that you specify and implement in intelligent “i” version
ECO-MAX optimiser. These optimisers offer the facility to seamlessly
switch between optimised (saving) and grid voltages under load
conditions without interrupting the power to the connected equipment."

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 5 May 2018 09:27:10 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/05/18 08:48, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> > ARW was thinking very hard :

> >> Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W?
> >> Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair?
> >> Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-)
> >> Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3
> >> minutes and everything is hot and steamy.
> >> Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on
> >> Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V
> >> Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA
> >> saving
> >
> > I don't think anyone has mentioned, that lowering the voltage/increasing
> > the current, will produce more waste heat in the internal wiring of the
> > building. It will not be much extra waste heat, but...
>
> Plus where you have a relatively fixed voltage drop - like a bridge
> rectifier in an SMPSU, the losses will increase: more current through
> that bridge for smaller power output.
>
> All in all it is complete bollocks - only thing that will mayybe
> impriove is incandescmet bulb life - who uses those?

it does but that's countereffective. I used to use a transformer to boost filament lamps, thereby reducing life, increasing efficacy & reducing TCO. And it meant one could get more light from a given fitting. I called it economy 24.


NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 5 May 2018 11:37:10 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/05/18 09:38, ARW wrote:
> > On 05/05/2018 09:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> >> ARW has brought this to us :
> >>> Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on
> >>> resistive loads.
> >>
> >> True, but it will for all of the none resistive loads.
> >
> > I would say that the resistive loads are the ones that use the most
> > power. So hair driers, cookers, kettles, immersion heaters etc.
>
> No, that is wrong.
>
> A kettle will use MORE eletricity due to MORE losses due to the longer
> time it takes to boil. Ditto immersion heaters. Cookers that have
> thermostats to reach a particular tempeartuire will use no less
> electricity. Hiar driers that fail to fry will use moire as it will take
> longer..

Kettles & immersions operate differently. Immersions on reduced V see less heat loss because the water is below set temp for longer during each reheat cycle, so they eat marginally less energy, but only because the water isn't upto temp some of the time. Kettles OTOH have longer to lose heat so are less efficient.


NT

[Harry Bloomfield]

tabb...@gmail.com laid this down on his screen :

> Kettles & immersions operate differently. Immersions on reduced V see less
> heat loss because the water is below set temp for longer during each reheat
> cycle, so they eat marginally less energy, but only because the water isn't
> upto temp some of the time. Kettles OTOH have longer to lose heat so are less
> efficient.

I fail to see how you arrived at that conclusion, the longer the
immersion takes to heat the water up to to temperature, the more heat
will be lost whilst heating it up. In an extreme case, it would be lost
as quickly as heat were input and so never switch off. That takes no
account of how quickly heat is lost after the heat is switched off.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Peter Parry was thinking very hard :

> On Sat, 5 May 2018 08:31:09 +0100, ARW
> <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 05/05/2018 03:26, Johnny B Good wrote:
>>> On Fri, 04 May 2018 22:45:01 +0100, ARW wrote:
>>>
>
>>> Wow! These scam merchants put Russ Andrews to shame!
>>>
>>> <http://gwenergy.co.uk/what-we-do/energy-saving-in-the-home/>
>>>
>>
>> Twin 6ft T8, is that not supposed to be 140W?
>> Hairdrier, takes longer to dry your hair?
>> Vacuum cleaner, more runs to get the cat hairs up:-)
>> Microwave? Well that like a quicky in the pub toilets, all done in 3
>> minutes and everything is hot and steamy.
>> Infra red patio heater, put a jumper on
>> Fridge, no one is sure about that but mine works OK on 253V
>> Dishwasher, surely most of the energy is in heating the water so FA saving
>
> Their method of calculating any saving for their guarantee is
> interesting :-
>
> http://gwenergy.co.uk/eco-max-optimisers-savings-guarantee/

So lots of get outs then if it doesn't provide the economy they say?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <b4a0db36-c48d-41dc...@googlegroups.com>,

<tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > All in all it is complete bollocks - only thing that will mayybe
> > impriove is incandescmet bulb life - who uses those?

> it does but that's countereffective. I used to use a transformer to boost filament lamps, thereby reducing life, increasing efficacy & reducing TCO. And it meant one could get more light from a given fitting. I called it economy 24.

And of course pretty well all modern lights - LED or CFL - never give the
same output as the tungsten they claim to replace.

You'd think since they are more efficient, no need to lie.

--
*We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 5 May 2018 15:05:11 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> tabbypurr laid this down on his screen :

What you say there is true of kettles. But immersion heated cylinders stay hot all the time. Thus lower heater power means a temperature dip for lnoger, which means less loss.


NT

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 5 May 2018 15:10:44 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <b4a0db36-c48d-41dc...@googlegroups.com>,

> <tabbypurr> wrote:

> > > All in all it is complete bollocks - only thing that will mayybe
> > > impriove is incandescmet bulb life - who uses those?
>
> > it does but that's countereffective. I used to use a transformer to boost filament lamps, thereby reducing life, increasing efficacy & reducing TCO. And it meant one could get more light from a given fitting. I called it economy 24.
>
> And of course pretty well all modern lights - LED or CFL - never give the
> same output as the tungsten they claim to replace.
>
> You'd think since they are more efficient, no need to lie.

Promoters mislead as a matter of routine. It backfired on CFL sales of course.


NT

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <8fcde4eb-fbd1-47f7...@googlegroups.com>,

<tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > And of course pretty well all modern lights - LED or CFL - never give
> > the same output as the tungsten they claim to replace.
> >
> > You'd think since they are more efficient, no need to lie.

> Promoters mislead as a matter of routine. It backfired on CFL sales of
> course.

Promoters? The so called equivalent is often on the maker's literature or
packaging. So can't be blames solely on advertisers.

--
*If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before

[Fredxx]

On 05/05/2018 00:10, ARW wrote:
> On 04/05/2018 23:34, Johnny B Good wrote:

>> On Fri, 04 May 2018 15:46:37 +0100, ARW wrote:
>>
>>> Just fitted my first ever voltage optimiser.
>>>
>>> Not much to it but I am puzzled.
>>>
>>> I tapped of the 10% drop terminals. The incoming supply to the optimiser
>>> is 251V and the outgoing load is 236V.
>>>
>>> So where does the 10% come into this?
>>

>>   That was a 6% drop. Perhaps the other 4% kicks in at maximum rated load
>> when leakage inductance and transformer winding resistance volt drop take
>> their toll?
>>
>>   It sounds to me like it's a basic, if BFO[1], autotransformer. It also
>> sounds like it's intended to be installed between the meter and CU to
>> reduce the whole house supply, presumably to compensate for a PSU line
>> voltage that's consistently on the high side of the nominal 240v used in
>> the UK.
>>
>>   If it included automatic voltage adjustment to compensate for
>> variations
>> in supply voltage, it would make sense. If it's just an autotransformer,
>> prewired to provide a fixed 10% reduction as your post implies, it
>> doesn't make much sense since the proper solution is to complain to your
>> PSU about the overvoltage and arrange for them to adjust the supply back
>> to the nominal 240v.
>>
>>   However, 251v is within the +10% upper limit for a notional
>> (harmonised)
>> 230v supply upon which all domestic kit, excluding incandescent lamps, is
>> optimised. If the supply never exceeds 253vac using an accurate
>> voltmeter, then it's within tolerance and unless the supply regularly
>> exceeds this, quite frankly, I can't really see the point of inserting
>> such a BFO autotransformer between the meter and the CU.
>>
>>   If this has been installed in the mistaken belief that it will reduce
>> electrical consumption by household appliances, as almost everyone else
>> has pointed out, it won't. Indeed the additional losses, even if quite
>> tiny, will increase consumption negating any small gain made with
>> incandescent lamps which will become noticeably dimmer, yet at the same
>> time may last twice as long as normal (so, not all bad news if you don't
>> minder the dimmer look).
>>
>>   If the average line voltage is above nominal, the 10% reduction
>> shouldn't be a problem to white goods appliances which use electric
>> motors, especially if they're modern 'Harmonised' appliances. However,
>> too little voltage can cause motors to overheat and burn out, especially
>> during startup surges with compressor loads such as fridges and freezers
>> and, to a lesser extent, washing machine drum motors.
>>
>>   Kit that uses smpsus such as TV sets, desktop computers and the like,
>> will automatically draw exactly the same power, typically over a supply
>> voltage that ranges from a low of 186vac to a high of 265vac. Some of
>> this kit may, like universal mains voltage laptop chargers and other
>> battery chargers, function over the range of 90vac to the 265vac limit,
>> drawing pretty much an almost constant power level according to demand
>> from their electronic loads.
>>
>>   Most appliances that rely on heating elements for their function will
>> simply use a longer duty cycle controlled by a thermostat. So, again, no
>> net saving in energy consumption there. Even electric kettles will simply
>> take longer to boil before their anti-boil dry sensor conveniently
>> switches the kettle off as a kindness to the user. The more protracted
>> heating up time will allow a little more heat to escape increasing the
>> energy consumption slightly as it will in the case of every other
>> appliance that uses energy for heating.
>>
>>   In short, if this "Voltage Optimiser" has been sold to your customer on
>> the basis of reducing electrical consumption, then it has been sold as a
>> "Snake Oil Solution" to a non-existent problem.
>>
>> [1] Assuming a 10% drop on a 250v 100A supply, you'd need a 2.5KVA rated
>> autotransformer which would weigh in, afaicr, at around 25 to 30Kg which
>> in a domestic installation is one Big Fuck Off autotransformer! :-)
>>
>
> The phone battery was dead or I would have taken photos.
>
> Basically (my guess) it's just a toroidal with 3 tap offs. Not sure what
> it weighed but it was impossible for me to hold it to the wall with one
> hand to mark out the fixing holes.

Ya wuss, spec says 18kg!

[harry]

If you reduce the voltage on a resistive load, less current will flow.
But for longer. So there will be no additional losses in the wiring.

But if it takes longer to heat a tank of water say to a set point there will be increased losses from the tank.

[Harry Bloomfield]

tabb...@gmail.com wrote on 05/05/2018 :
> What you say there is true of kettles. But immersion heated cylinders stay
> hot all the time. Thus lower heater power means a temperature dip for lnoger,
> which means less loss.

No, sorry I cannot agree - think it through...

[Harry Bloomfield]

Harry Bloomfield was thinking very hard :

> Reduced loss, but the losses will occur for additional time.

I agree, which is what I attempted to explain above..

[Fredxx]

Sorry, the difference in efficiency would be close to immeasurable. If
there is any loss then it will be the "optimiser" itself.

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <9429ab48-5d38-4b22...@googlegroups.com>,

harry <harry...@btinternet.com> writes:
>
> I saw a similar device that purported to save significant energy by power factor correction.
> Bollix of course.

Commercial users can be charged extra for low power factor and badly
balanced 3-phase loads. When I worked for GEC Computers in the 1980's
our computer room supply was charged at some favourable rate because
it was a pretty constant load (around 2MW IIRC), but it was charged
as though all phases were drawing the same load as the highest phase,
so you wanted the load well balanced. The computers were all single
phase, so it was important to distribute them carefully between
phases.

Domestic users in UK have to be charged based on energy used, and
can't be charged for low power factor or unbalanced 3-phase loads.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[Fredxx]

And the heating effect will also be reduced in proportion and occur for
the same additional time.

The resistive divider (between wiring resistance and kettle resistance)

will apportion power in the same way for 230V and 250V.

Therefore the energy loss will remain the same as will the useful energy
consumed by the heater independent of supply voltage.

[tabb...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 5 May 2018 18:18:35 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I did. You might be making different assumptions about how it's being used.


NT

[Rod Speed]

"Andy Burns" <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:fl3ffn...@mid.individual.net...
> spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Hence do less cooling per unit time and run for longer
>>
>> and so wear out more quickly?
>
> Debatable

Nope.

> hard work for shorter time v.s. light work for longer time?

10% doesn’t turn hard work into light work.

[Dave W]

On Sat, 5 May 2018 11:37:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>A kettle will use MORE eletricity due to MORE losses due to the longer
>time it takes to boil. Ditto immersion heaters. Cookers that have
>thermostats to reach a particular tempeartuire will use no less
>electricity. Hiar driers that fail to fry will use moire as it will take
>longer..
>

I don't know how you came to that conclusion. The kettle requires a
certain amount of energy to boil, either more current and quicker or
less current and slower. Energy lost in series resistance will be the
same in both cases, but it's true that the first case will result in
less loss in heating the air as the time is shorter. Hardly noticeable
though.
--
Dave W

[Johnny B Good]

Regulations on domestic appliances takes care of the low power factor
issue in domestic premises, allowing the PSU to only charge their
domestic customers for KWHs used without the complication of monitoring
and charging for excessive reactive current 'consumption'.

For example, magnetically ballasted fluorescent lamp fittings must
incorporate a PFC capacitor for lamps of 20W or more rating. The SL13 and
SL18 CFLs made by Philips Lighting some three(?) decades back did not
require a PFC capacitor to be fitted into these magnetically ballasted
CFLs since they fell below that 20W limit, even allowing for a +/-10%
margin of error in their 18W SL18 lamps.

It wasn't only the sheer mass of a larger magnetic ballast that a higher
wattage version would have entailed that limited those early CFLs to a
maximum of 18W, it was also the fact that the mandated PFC capacitor
would have added further bulk (and a modest further increase in mass) to
an already heavy and ugly looking lamp.

--
Johnny B Good

[Max Demian]

Are domestic air conditioners and heat pump heaters required to have
power factor correction?

--
Max Demian

[Rod Speed]

Brian Gaff <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote

> That was what I thought. Do people not learn this simple fact at school
> anymoor,

They don’t need to, now they can read it in a review instead.

> or could I go into business selling perpetual motion machines?

Corse you always could, even when they did teach this stuff in school.

> "Harry Bloomfield" <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:pchu55$g2g$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Brian Gaff explained :
>>> I'm not sure exactly what you are doing here?
>>
>> It is one of those silly scam gadgets, which claims to save on your
>> electricity bill. They reduce the voltage by 10% and claim it will save
>> you 10% on your bill, which is absolute balony. Heating loads will just
>> take that 10% longer, motors produce less power output, incandescent
>> lights will be much less than 10% dimmer, LED's and CFL's will simply
>> draw more current, to produce the same amount of light, or more lights
>> will be needed to make up for the darkness.
>>
>> The unit itself, will also waste some power in heat produced.
>
>

[Johnny B Good]

The regulations will only state that they have to meet a minimum PF
figure. I don't know the details but I'm sure the manufacturers will take
whatever measures are required to meet such mandatory requirements (PFC
capacitors or a motor design that intrinsically has a high enough PF
figure to meet the requirement without such devices).

The case of 20W and above rated fluorescent light fittings is the only
one I recall but if the need to correct the PF on 20W fluorescent lamps
is mandated by the regulations, you'd think other much higher wattage
domestic appliances will also be subject to a minimum PF requirement.
However, it's proving very difficult to track down a definitive answer to
this very question other than for new regulations concerning PFC
requirements on SMPSUs rated from 75W to 600W (class D).

--
Johnny B Good

[Rod Speed]

Harry Bloomfield <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> wrote

But you havent said why. IMO he is right,
for once, for the reason he spelt out. There
will be less time at full temp, so less loss.

> think it through...

He did.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 05/05/18 22:45, Dave W wrote:
> On Sat, 5 May 2018 11:37:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> A kettle will use MORE eletricity due to MORE losses due to the longer
>> time it takes to boil. Ditto immersion heaters. Cookers that have
>> thermostats to reach a particular tempeartuire will use no less
>> electricity. Hiar driers that fail to fry will use moire as it will take
>> longer..
>>
> I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

No,. but thats because I am smart and no fizzix and you are a thick cunt

> The kettle requires a
> certain amount of energy to boil, either more current and quicker or
> less current and slower. Energy lost in series resistance will be the
> same in both cases, but it's true that the first case will result in
> less loss in heating the air as the time is shorter. Hardly noticeable
> though.
>

Ah, In time you worked out the difference.

More heat lost to the air.



--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

[Dave W]

On Sun, 6 May 2018 05:37:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 05/05/18 22:45, Dave W wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 May 2018 11:37:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
>> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> A kettle will use MORE eletricity due to MORE losses due to the longer
>>> time it takes to boil. Ditto immersion heaters. Cookers that have
>>> thermostats to reach a particular tempeartuire will use no less
>>> electricity. Hiar driers that fail to fry will use moire as it will take
>>> longer..
>>>
>> I don't know how you came to that conclusion.
>
>No,. but thats because I am smart and no fizzix and you are a thick cunt
>
>
>> The kettle requires a
>> certain amount of energy to boil, either more current and quicker or
>> less current and slower. Energy lost in series resistance will be the
>> same in both cases, but it's true that the first case will result in
>> less loss in heating the air as the time is shorter. Hardly noticeable
>> though.
>>
>
>Ah, In time you worked out the difference.
>
>More heat lost to the air.

Also, your concept of "kettle" is probably the modern one consisting
of a thermally insulating plastic case containing a built-in heater,
rather than the traditional metal container you put on the cooker. I
defy you to measure the cost of the heat lost through the plastic.

(I have a BSc in Physics by the way).
--
Dave W

[Ian Jackson]

In message <pcm0r3$oqs$3...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> writes

>On 05/05/18 22:45, Dave W wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 May 2018 11:37:08 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
>> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> A kettle will use MORE eletricity due to MORE losses due to the
>>>longer
>>> time it takes to boil. Ditto immersion heaters. Cookers that have
>>> thermostats to reach a particular tempeartuire will use no less
>>> electricity. Hiar driers that fail to fry will use moire as it will take
>>> longer..
>>>
>> I don't know how you came to that conclusion.
>
>No,. but thats because I am smart and no fizzix and you are a thick cunt
>
>
>> The kettle requires a
>> certain amount of energy to boil, either more current and quicker or
>> less current and slower. Energy lost in series resistance will be the
>> same in both cases, but it's true that the first case will result in
>> less loss in heating the air as the time is shorter. Hardly noticeable
>> though.
>>
>
>Ah, In time you worked out the difference.
>
>More heat lost to the air.

Anyone who has tried to boil a UK single voltage travel kettle in the
USA will tell you that although the power consumption will be a quarter
of that in the UK, the time it takes to boil is certainly not four
times, but instead can seem like infinity. [But of course, the law about
'A watched kettle never boils' also applies in the USA - especially when
you're dying for a proper cup of Taylor's Yorkshire tea.]
--
Ian

[Andy Burns]

Ian Jackson wrote:

> the time it takes to boil is certainly not four
> times, but instead can seem like infinity.

Surely that's reserved for those 12V cigar-lighter travel kettles?

[Harry Bloomfield]

Ian Jackson pretended :

> Anyone who has tried to boil a UK single voltage travel kettle in the USA
> will tell you that although the power consumption will be a quarter of that
> in the UK, the time it takes to boil is certainly not four times, but instead
> can seem like infinity. [But of course, the law about 'A watched kettle never
> boils' also applies in the USA - especially when you're dying for a proper
> cup of Taylor's Yorkshire tea.]
>
> --

..and simply because on the lower voltage it takes longer to achieve
boiling, the longer it takes, the more time for heat to be lost. The
lost heat has to be replaced as well as enough energy added to water to
bring it to the boil.

The quicker it is brought to the boil, the less energy will be lost
through the case of the kettle and to raising steam.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <pcmf5m$ncq$1...@dont-email.me>, Harry Bloomfield
<harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> writes

Of course. [If you really want to leave no stone unturned, you could
include the energy lost in getting the electricity to the kettle - ie
because of the resistance of the mains wiring.]

If you reduce the power consumption far enough, a kettle will NEVER
boil. A similar situation exists with vacuum cleaners, where if they
don't have enough suck, they will never be able dislodge deep-seated
dust and dirt. Presumably there is a limit to how much clever re-design
can compensate for the effects of reduced performance.
--
Ian

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <nu8ted926gsfj8krq...@4ax.com>,

Dave W <da...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Also, your concept of "kettle" is probably the modern one consisting
> of a thermally insulating plastic case containing a built-in heater,
> rather than the traditional metal container you put on the cooker. I
> defy you to measure the cost of the heat lost through the plastic.

You've not seen decent electric kettles with a metal container?

--
*Husbands should come with instructions

[The Natural Philosopher]

WEll that gioes to show har far down the scale the universities have gone

>
Oh dear.

Try actually doing that calculation then
Does your plastic kettle feel cool to the touch?

Actually m,y kettle is not plastic, thats old fashioned. These days
stainless steel is more fashionbale.

And finally my re,marks were made in the context of someone claiming
that heat loss via the kettle lead would be reduced. That is another
rather small quantity.



--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

[Harry Bloomfield]

Ian Jackson laid this down on his screen :

> If you reduce the power consumption far enough, a kettle will NEVER boil. A
> similar situation exists with vacuum cleaners, where if they don't have
> enough suck, they will never be able dislodge deep-seated dust and dirt.
> Presumably there is a limit to how much clever re-design can compensate for
> the effects of reduced performance.
>
> --

Exactly, once radiated energy equals input energy the desired terminal
temperature will never be achieved. Thus all of the energy input will
be wasted in trying to achieve that which cannot be attained.

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

On Sat, 05 May 2018 09:38:32 +0100, ARW <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> On 05/05/2018 09:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>> ARW has brought this to us :

>>> Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on
>>> resistive loads.
>>

>> True, but it will for all of the none resistive loads.
>
> I would say that the resistive loads are the ones that use the most
> power. So hair driers, cookers, kettles, immersion heaters etc.
>
> I only fitted the thing because the customer wanted it. I am happy with
> my 253V supply:-)

I'm not happy with my 245 to 256V supply. I use a 1kW 1500VA UPS for my computer, so when I get 1 or 2 second brownouts, it doesn't crash and corrupt the disk. When I lost quite a few LED bulbs in a short time, I tried running the lighting circuit from it. It has a built in automatic voltage regulator (it changes the tappings itself). The bulbs last about 4 times longer.

--
I wouldn't need to manage my anger if people could learn to manage their stupidity.

[whisky-dave]

On Saturday, 5 May 2018 11:37:10 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 05/05/18 09:38, ARW wrote:
> > On 05/05/2018 09:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
> >> ARW has brought this to us :
> >>> Lowering the incoming voltage will not increase the current on
> >>> resistive loads.
> >>
> >> True, but it will for all of the none resistive loads.
> >
> > I would say that the resistive loads are the ones that use the most
> > power. So hair driers, cookers, kettles, immersion heaters etc.
>

> No, that is wrong.

>
> A kettle will use MORE eletricity due to MORE losses due to the longer
> time it takes to boil. Ditto immersion heaters. Cookers that have
> thermostats to reach a particular tempeartuire will use no less
> electricity. Hiar driers that fail to fry will use moire as it will take
> longer..

Meaning women will take even longer to get ready.

> > I only fitted the thing because the customer wanted it. I am happy with
> > my 253V supply:-)
> >

> Run away now.

With all our heaters now off, I'm getting 222V in the lab 214V in my office.

With saving like this we can employ more administrators :-/