copying wooden mouldings

andyv

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May 13, 2010, 7:21:56 AM5/13/10

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I know a lot of this has been discussed before but I can't quite sort
out what I need. I have an old Victorian property which has been badly
messed about with lots of non original skirting boards, architraves
and window surrounds. There are however plenty of original bits I can
copy.

I've considered getting a router or maybe a spindle moulder, but don't
know much about these. I've presumed that a router is a small hand
held version of a spindle moulder, though you can get benches to
attach your router to to get greater precision.

How though do you go about getting the shape you need right.
Presumably cutter profiles from Victorian times are not still
available. The fluting on some of my mouldings is quite complex. Do
you need to make several passes with different cutters, and try and
make it match the old shape?

I saw in one thread about making your own cutters. How is this done?
Is it a DIY proposition?

Andy Dingley

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May 13, 2010, 7:40:18 AM5/13/10

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On 13 May, 12:21, andyv <avev...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> I know a lot of this has been discussed before but I can't quite sort
> out what I need.

Have them made for you on a spindle moulder. You can't make your own
without a lot of workshop space and a large and fairly expensive
machine. You won't do Victorian mouldings on a router or router table.

For some smaller mouldings, especially detail work, you can make them
at home using a wooden moulding plane, but again not a router.

d...@gglz.com

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May 13, 2010, 9:10:54 AM5/13/10

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On 13 May, 12:21, andyv <avev...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

A spindle moulder is a large, heavy and expensive machine - with a
reputation for snatching fingers from the inexperienced or careless.

You might pay someone to run you some custom mouldings for you on a
spindle moulder, it's not a realistic proposition to consider one of
your own for a domestic project.

However running your own mouldings with a router mounted on a table,
is very doable.

If the moulding is unusual you will need several passes and some
ingenuity to produce it. Particularly after the initial cut on a
rectangular section timber, there's likely to be a need to support the
moulding in different ways on subsequent passes.

If you have no experience of routers, expect to spend some time
mastering it in order to get good results.

Have a look through the cutters offered by Trend and through Axminster
to see if there's something suitable. But also take a sample of your
required moulding to a larger timber merchant - you might be lucky, or
find something not-too-far-off that can be adapted.

If you look at Axminster (.co.uk) you'll also see what a spindle looks
like and costs, and that cutters are fairly cheap with a very
extensive range. That's the deal - a very expensive and very powerful
machine that can rapidly cut deep and complex mouldings - but cutters
are cheap.

RobertL

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May 13, 2010, 9:15:17 AM5/13/10

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On May 13, 2:10 pm, "d...@gglz.com" <d...@gglz.com> wrote:
> On 13 May, 12:21, andyv <avev...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I know a lot of this has been discussed before but I can't quite sort
> > out what I need. I have an old Victorian property which has been badly
> > messed about with lots of non original skirting boards, architraves
> > and window surrounds. There are however plenty of original bits I can
> > copy.

We had spindels and some handrails copied by a local joinery and the
result was first rate. I agree with others that these people have
expensive machiens and a lot of experience so it's good to let them do
it.

For skirting and architrave take a look on eBay. We found various
original bits of wood being sold there.

Robert

mark

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May 13, 2010, 9:58:31 AM5/13/10

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"andyv" <ave...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:15b7dcf4-57d6-415e...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

Custom cutters for spindle moulders can be made by such places as:
http://www.norfolksawservices.co.uk/

mark

NT

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May 13, 2010, 10:07:07 AM5/13/10

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Wot they said. The only thing to add is that some old mouldings can be
made by simply gluing 2 or 3 modern simple mouldings together.

NT

Andy Dingley

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May 13, 2010, 10:42:41 AM5/13/10

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On 13 May, 14:10, "d...@gglz.com" <d...@gglz.com> wrote:

> However running your own mouldings with a router mounted on a table,
> is very doable.

Not for skirtings. The size of the individual curves is too big for a
router cutter.

d...@gglz.com

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May 13, 2010, 10:46:29 AM5/13/10

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> Custom cutters for spindle moulders can be made by such places as:http://www.norfolksawservices.co.uk/

I've had old handsaws resharpened by them (they might have done my
planer blades too - can't remember) - tiptop service at a very
reasonable price.

d...@gglz.com

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May 13, 2010, 10:56:42 AM5/13/10

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You're right to say a complex moulding in one pass on a router table
is more than they're capable of.

But a combination of cutters and cuts can do a lot.

For instance - I've used 25mm radius cutters in my router & table -
two passes & flipping the board over to do half-rounds/nosings on 50mm
thick board for stair treads.

Of course a spindle moulder could have done the whole thing in one
pass, but for modest quantities (and possibly cleaning up
imperfections between the cuts by hand) a lot can be done with routers
and tables.

stuart noble

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May 13, 2010, 11:03:12 AM5/13/10

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Or, assuming it's going to be painted, mdf for the bulk, and
off-the-shelf mouldings for the fancy bits. A saw bench might be useful.

Dave Plowman (News)

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May 13, 2010, 11:10:51 AM5/13/10

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In article
<15b7dcf4-57d6-415e...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,

Easiest to find a local workshop with a spindle moulder and give them the
problem. They'll be quite used to making up cutters to match a pattern -
and may already have one. That's what I did when I removed the wall
between front and back rooms and wanted to replace the skirting and
picture rails so it didn't look like it hadn't been built that way. The
cost wasn't extortionate.

--
*On the other hand, you have different fingers*

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Dingley

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May 13, 2010, 11:14:54 AM5/13/10

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On 13 May, 15:56, "d...@gglz.com" <d...@gglz.com> wrote:

> > Not for skirtings. The size of the individual curves is too big for a
> > router cutter.
>
> You're right to say a complex moulding in one pass on a router table
> is more than they're capable of.

No, I didn't say that. You can certainly do complex mouldings by
multi-passing. One of the best routers for it is my new tiny Bosch.
Although it's small it also has a tilting base, which opens up a lot
of spindle moulder techniques (for small furniture work at least).
There are lots of spindle moulder mouldings that can't be cut on a
router table (at least, not without making sleds) because they require
a tilted spindle (and can't get cutter clearance without it).

The real killer for skirtings though is the size of the individual
curves. These, on their own, exceed the useful size that a router
cutter can make. You can make some Victorian mouldings by multi-
passing, which is most dadoes or door mouldings, but not many
skirtings.

For furniture mouldings you often find that the original were cut with
planes, not rotating cutters, and those can be easy to copy wiith a
router, but impossible to copy accurately.

> Of course a spindle moulder could have done the whole thing in one pass

A spindle moulder with the right cutter, that is. If you're doing one-
off repros it's still often worth multi-passing, just to do it with
the cutters you already have. A four-knife head can make this easier,
as you can cut two "passes" in one pass.

Mark Bluemel

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May 14, 2010, 3:51:27 AM5/14/10

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I used to know someone who combined techniques - assembled a rough
approximation with simple mouldings and used a router to fine-tune, as
I understand it.

andyv

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May 14, 2010, 12:58:37 PM5/14/10

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> I understand it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for all the responses. For now I'm working with reclaimed
timber and swapping some skirting round from other rooms where it's
less obvious. I think I'll need to get it cut professionally
eventually though.

Bolted

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May 14, 2010, 6:10:19 PM5/14/10

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Andy Dingley wrote:

> The real killer for skirtings though is the size of the individual
> curves. These, on their own, exceed the useful size that a router
> cutter can make. You can make some Victorian mouldings by multi-
> passing, which is most dadoes or door mouldings, but not many
> skirtings.

The larger one of these is a very close match to the 16" ogee skirting
in my victorian house
http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Grecian_Bevel_Large_287.html

Spindle moulder and power feed is easier and gives a better finish, though.

stuart noble

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May 15, 2010, 3:14:33 AM5/15/10

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A stock item from any decent timber merchant I would have thought.

Bolted

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May 15, 2010, 8:55:41 AM5/15/10

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stuart noble wrote:

> A stock item from any decent timber merchant I would have thought.

Yes, but at a price which quickly pays for the cutters (router or
spindle).

stuart noble

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May 15, 2010, 9:20:13 AM5/15/10

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The cost of 6" x 1" skirting wasn't significantly more than 6" x 1" PAR
last time I looked. I tend to use MDF mouldings these days

stuart noble

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May 15, 2010, 9:18:46 AM5/15/10

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The cost of 6" x 1" skirting wasn't significantly more than 6" x 1" PAR

Bolted

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May 15, 2010, 10:45:33 AM5/15/10

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I can't quite bring myself to put MDF in for reasons I am not sure are
entirely rational. The price difference in my local merchants is in the
�4 to �5 region per lin m (+ VAT) over the PAR price for the 9" used
upstairs. It's enough for me, but then I have the machines anyway.

stuart noble

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May 15, 2010, 12:56:00 PM5/15/10

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Bolted wrote:
> stuart noble wrote:
>> Bolted wrote:
>>> stuart noble wrote:
>>>
>>>> A stock item from any decent timber merchant I would have thought.
>>>
>>> Yes, but at a price which quickly pays for the cutters (router or
>>> spindle).
>>
>> The cost of 6" x 1" skirting wasn't significantly more than 6" x 1"
>> PAR last time I looked. I tend to use MDF mouldings these days
>
> I can't quite bring myself to put MDF in for reasons I am not sure are
> entirely rational.

I'd call it semi-rational :-) To my eye mdf has a "dead" look, no matter
how much paint you put on it. Something to do with the surface being
totally uniform I suppose.

The price difference in my local merchants is in the
> �4 to �5 region per lin m (+ VAT) over the PAR price for the 9" used
> upstairs. It's enough for me, but then I have the machines anyway.

That's a lot considering the PAR is machined on 4 sides as well. Doesn't
really take any longer to machine a stock moulding in bulk.

NT

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May 15, 2010, 5:45:14 PM5/15/10

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Bolted wrote:
> stuart noble wrote:
> > Bolted wrote:
> >> stuart noble wrote:
> >>
> >>> A stock item from any decent timber merchant I would have thought.
> >>
> >> Yes, but at a price which quickly pays for the cutters (router or
> >> spindle).
> >
> > The cost of 6" x 1" skirting wasn't significantly more than 6" x 1" PAR
> > last time I looked. I tend to use MDF mouldings these days
>
> I can't quite bring myself to put MDF in for reasons I am not sure are
> entirely rational.

Trust me, theyre rational. Horrible stuff.

NT

john

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May 16, 2010, 12:15:40 PM5/16/10

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