Asbestos(?) water tank

[cskri...@gmail.com]

Dear All,

My friend has a defunct water tank in her loft, which is in a 60s brick semi. Evidently the plumber opted to just leave it there when he upgraded the system and installed a plastic, tank since it is very heavy.

It appears to be made of an asbestos material,but I may be wrong about this. Being a water tank I presume it is not intrinsically hazardous, but I am contemplating breaking it up to dispose of it. Do you think there would be hazards in doing this?

Cheers.

Chris

[Peter Crosland]

Absolutely not! It very probably is asbestos and needs dealing with
professionally that will probably cost into four figures. Otherwise just
leave it where it is as it is doing no harm.




--
Peter Crosland

[Artic]

cskri...@gmail.com scribbled...

>
> Dear All,
>
> My friend has a defunct water tank in her loft, which is in a 60s brick semi. Evidently the plumber opted to just leave it there when he upgraded the system and installed a plastic, tank since it is very heavy.
>
> It appears to be made of an asbestos material,but I may be wrong about this. Being a water tank I presume it is not intrinsically hazardous, but I am contemplating breaking it up to dispose of it. Do you think there would be hazards in doing this?
>

Where will you dispose of it ?

[Onetap]

Probably (white) asbestos cement. Breaking or cutting will release airborne fibres, they cause of much grief in a few decades. If you can get it out in one piece, your local authority may have a disposal facility if you double-bag it. Otherwise steer clear.

[Brian Gaff]

Well, yes there could be, so use some form of breathing filter and of course
you would need to confine the area so the occupants cannot breath it either.
After that you will find nobody will let you dump the stuff either. Probably
best left alone.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
<cskri...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5b8f75b9-35f8-4e32...@googlegroups.com...

[Brian Gaff]

I think there is certified centre run by City of London as far as I am told
as I have a whole Garage to get rid of as well as a shed roof. The Asbestos
Cement is not that hazardous normally, but its seemingly treated as if it
were by most tips and recycling centres these days. I fear its just a big
hassle so they don't want it.
it all has to be bagged even for those who will take it to even consider it
and labelled double bagged in some instances.
I bet if you crawled around any tip you would find stuff much more of a
hazard that nobody bothers with a second look.

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active

"Artic" <me@bum'ole.cum> wrote in message
news:MPG.2cb0dfeef...@nntpswitch.blueworldhosting.com...

[Tim Watts]

That depends on what type of asbestos it is!

Chrysotile (white) is not that bad if precautions are taken. It is highly
unlikely to be any other asbestos - though a small sample can be taken and
sent for analysis. It may not even contain asbestos.

The rest depends on what the tank looks like and what the access is like.

Having to break the tank is undesireable but may be unavoidable. If it will
go got the loft hatch, then do so, but I would paint it with dilute PVA on
all surfaces to prevent dusting.

If it does need breaking up - then I agree, it is a bit trickier. The
personal protection is easy enough - paper suit and good respirator. The
biggest problem comes with any contamination that gets chucked around the
loft and house.

Personally, if it is too big to move, I'd take a sample and see if it is
really a problem.


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

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Reading this on the web? See:
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[Tim Watts]

On Saturday 28 September 2013 14:02 Brian Gaff wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> Well, yes there could be, so use some form of breathing filter and of
> course you would need to confine the area so the occupants cannot breath
> it either. After that you will find nobody will let you dump the stuff
> either.

Most bigger dumps IME have asbestos disposal - ring the county or district
council first.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 05:37:03 -0700 (PDT), cskri...@gmail.com wrote:

>It appears to be made of an asbestos material,but I may be wrong about this. Being a water tank I presume it is not intrinsically hazardous, but I am contemplating breaking it up to dispose of it. Do you think there would be hazards in doing this?

Face mask, sledge (or smaller) hammer, don't angle-grind it. It will
smash into smaller pieces which can be bagged up.
Ignore the old women.

[The Natural Philosopher]

+1


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Artic]

Brian Gaff scribbled...

>
> I think there is certified centre run by City of London as far as I am told
> as I have a whole Garage to get rid of as well as a shed roof. The Asbestos
> Cement is not that hazardous normally, but its seemingly treated as if it
> were by most tips and recycling centres these days. I fear its just a big
> hassle so they don't want it.
> it all has to be bagged even for those who will take it to even consider it
> and labelled double bagged in some instances.
> I bet if you crawled around any tip you would find stuff much more of a
> hazard that nobody bothers with a second look.
> Brian

I've taken my time getting rid of it in the past. A bag at a time in
the bin. If you soak the asbestos before bashing it into small pieces,
it's not going to create a dust cloud.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 05:37:03 -0700 (PDT), cskri...@gmail.com
wrote:

> It appears to be made of an asbestos material,but I may be wrong about
> this.

Sort of surprised, the white asbestos cement products I've come
across are porous to some extent. Yes you could get corrogated
roofing sheets but keeping a a bit of rain out isn't the same as
making a water tank from the stuff.

It's not just insulating board(s) around a galvanised tank?

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Tim Watts]

On Saturday 28 September 2013 15:50 Dave Liquorice wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 05:37:03 -0700 (PDT), cskri...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> It appears to be made of an asbestos material,but I may be wrong about
>> this.
>
> Sort of surprised, the white asbestos cement products I've come
> across are porous to some extent. Yes you could get corrogated
> roofing sheets but keeping a a bit of rain out isn't the same as
> making a water tank from the stuff.
>

I've seen asbestos cement drain pipes.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <l26pas$ib9$1...@news.albasani.net>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> writes

>On 28/09/13 15:17, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 05:37:03 -0700 (PDT), cskri...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> It appears to be made of an asbestos material,but I may be wrong
>>>about this. Being a water tank I presume it is not intrinsically
>>>hazardous, but I am contemplating breaking it up to dispose of it. Do
>>>you think there would be hazards in doing this?
>>
>> Face mask, sledge (or smaller) hammer, don't angle-grind it. It will
>> smash into smaller pieces which can be bagged up.
>> Ignore the old women.
>>
>+1

+2 You could wrap it in an old bed sheet before whacking to contain any
dust. As said above local waste sites may accept small quantities of
asbestos cement.
>
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> writes

>On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 05:37:03 -0700 (PDT), cskri...@gmail.com
>wrote:
>
>> It appears to be made of an asbestos material,but I may be wrong about
>> this.
>
>Sort of surprised, the white asbestos cement products I've come
>across are porous to some extent. Yes you could get corrogated
>roofing sheets but keeping a a bit of rain out isn't the same as
>making a water tank from the stuff.

I have one in my garden used for spent compost. I reckon it would still
hold water if I took off the lid.

>
>It's not just insulating board(s) around a galvanised tank?
>

--

Tim Lamb

[Peter Parry]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 13:45:20 +0100, Peter Crosland <g6...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>Absolutely not! It very probably is asbestos and needs dealing with
>professionally that will probably cost into four figures. Otherwise just
>leave it where it is as it is doing no harm.

It will be asbestos cement which is not especially hazardous. Even if
you have it done by a company it does not require removal by
specialist contractors. DIY removal is perfectly acceptable and safe.

The best way of getting it down is to visit a local furniture store
and get them to donate a couple of mattress or bed transit covers.
These are just big heavy duty polythene bags. Slide the tank into one
and then another over that. Close both bags and with a girt big
hammer whack it just until it and the bags will fit through the hole
in the ceiling (most get left in place because they won't fit through
the ceiling hatch). Breaking in the bags means there is no residue
left in the attic space. If you need to break it further do that
outside after wetting it thoroughly.

Your local council web site will tell you what precautions you need to
take and where you can dispose of it. There will usually be one
designated site and you will need to double wrap it in polythene.

[cskri...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 1:37:03 PM UTC+1, cskri...@gmail.com wrote:

Thanks for the replies and suggestions. The consensus seems to be to be wary.

The tank will fit through the hatch, and my plan was to take it down in one piece and break it up outside. It definitely needs moving as it is occupying prime storage space near the hatch. I will now reconsider relocating it in the loft, though this will be tricky due un-covered deep insulation all over.

[Adrian]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 10:18:11 -0700, cskrimshire wrote:

> The tank will fit through the hatch, and my plan was to take it down in
> one piece and break it up outside.

Take it down in one piece, then double-wrap it and dispose of it - still
in one piece.

[Peter Crosland]

Ignore the morons who say it can be safely broken. It cant, and if you
have ever seen the tragic results of exposure to asbestos you would know
why. Double bag it in polythene and take it to a registered disposal
site taking care not to accidentally break it.


--
Peter Crosland

[harryagain]

<cskri...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5b8f75b9-35f8-4e32...@googlegroups.com...

It's very likely to be asbestos cement, (10% asbestos about) sometimes they
were painted with black bitumous paint on the inside.
Though it contains asbestos fibres it is not as dangerous as loose asbestos
(insulation say).
Info here on handling.
http://www.aic.org.uk/asbestos_cement.htm

[harryagain]

"Artic" <me@bum'ole.cum> wrote in message
news:MPG.2cb0dfeef...@nntpswitch.blueworldhosting.com...

Our local recycle centre has closed skips for asbestos cement.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 28/09/13 18:30, Peter Crosland wrote:

> Ignore the morons who say it can be safely broken. It cant, and if you
> have ever seen the tragic results of exposure to asbestos you would know
> why. Double bag it in polythene and take it to a registered disposal
> site taking care not to accidentally break it.
>

Utter rubbish. teh hazards of asbestos came after lifetime exposure to
dust in mines and factories where it was prevalent.


breaking one up when wetted to kill dust just once wont be in any way
hazardous.

we used to mill cut and saw asbestos with no particular worries for
years and years, and no one died of it or even got ill.

Personally Id rather hack at asbestos than rout MDF. That truly is
dangerous dust.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 18:30:18 +0100, Peter Crosland <g6...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>Ignore the morons who say it can be safely broken. It cant, and if you
>have ever seen the tragic results of exposure to asbestos you would know
>why. Double bag it in polythene and take it to a registered disposal
>site taking care not to accidentally break it.

Ah; one of the old women speaks.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 20:13:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> Ignore the morons who say it can be safely broken. It cant, and if
you
>> have ever seen the tragic results of exposure to asbestos you
would
>> know why. Double bag it in polythene and take it to a registered
>> disposal site taking care not to accidentally break it.
>
> Utter rubbish. teh hazards of asbestos came after lifetime exposure to
> dust in mines and factories where it was prevalent.

Sometimes people go down with mesothelioma 30 years after a very
brief and relatively low level of exposure. Like wise someone can
spend their entire working life with the stuff and not have any
problems. Worse are the cases of the wives of asbestos workers who go
down with it from the dust off their husbands clothes...

I'm on an "asbestos regsister" because I used to work in a building
made with asbestos panels. Very strict "no drilling" rules, regular
air monitoring and grey dust that would form fairly quickly... The
put the entire building into a negative pressure bag when they
demolished it and everything that came out was double bagged.

There certainly is a bit of over reaction when asbestos is mentioned
and the white cement stuff is fairly benign. If I was to cut or break
it up I'd damp it down regulary and wear a proper half mask, not a
silly little pressed paper thing.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Onetap]

Agree.
You just need a car it will fit in or a roof rack and check the skip at the dump will take it.

[Onetap]

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 8:13:53 PM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/09/13 18:30, Peter Crosland wrote:

> we used to mill cut and saw asbestos with no particular worries for
>
> years and years, and no one died of it or even got ill.

They don't though, until 30 or 40 years later.

A pipe fitter I used to know had kept in contact with many of his mates from technical college.
He was on the verge of retiring & said 6 or 7 (I think) of the class were known to have died from asbestos related illnesses.
Lifetime exposure, maybe, but the problem is that no-one can set a safe level of exposure. 1 fibre could start a cancer.

[meow...@care2.com]

Just one trip to the shops in the car could kill you - its just a vanishingly small risk. Ditto with breaking one white asbestos cement tank. Do it repeatedly and the odds mount up.


NT

[Peter Crosland]

> On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 20:13:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>> Ignore the morons who say it can be safely broken. It cant, and if
> you
>>> have ever seen the tragic results of exposure to asbestos you
> would
>>> know why. Double bag it in polythene and take it to a registered
>>> disposal site taking care not to accidentally break it.
>>
>> Utter rubbish. teh hazards of asbestos came after lifetime exposure to
>> dust in mines and factories where it was prevalent.

Which just shows the degree of your general arrogance, and ignorance on
the subject. Quite short exposures to asbestos can result in
mesothelioma many years later. There simply is no safe level of exposure
to it. Even though the risk in the OP's case is small that is no reason
to be complacent about it. The OP can easily dispose of it safely
without much trouble so there is no reason for him not to do so.


--
Peter Crosland

[Jim K]

Hmmm bit of a climb down from your first Corporal Jones outburst then?

>Absolutely not! It very probably is >asbestos and needs dealing with >professionally that will probably cost into >four figures. Otherwise just leave it where >it is as it is doing no harm.

Jim K

[Peter Parry]

On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 14:36:22 -0700 (PDT), Onetap <one...@talk21.com>
wrote:

>Lifetime exposure, maybe, but the problem is that no-one can set a safe level of exposure. 1 fibre could start a cancer.

You should start panicking now then as everyone breathes several
fibres a day. As for London underground users - well they are doomed.
There is a well established (and quite conventional)
dose/exposure/risk relationship. The longer and larger your exposure
the greater the risk. The panic over asbestos at very low levels is
not the real risk but that in law there is no lower absolutely safe
limit. After a case some years ago anyone with asbestos related
disease can sue any employer they worked for at any time if they can
show even minimal exposure to asbestos containing materials.
Essentially such claims cannot be defended and there is an industry of
bloated solicitors (plus their boats and horses) supported by asbestos
claims.

Asbestos is everywhere and there is no one who has no exposure to it.
Control measures do not attempt to produce zero exposure which is
impossible. Asbestos cement is not the same as asbestos and the risk
of disposing of it is minimal. Other materials with low levels of
asbestos such as asbestos cement include old Vinyl floor tiles and any
number of ceiling boards. Most of these are hacked out and thrown
away without anyone even realising they contain asbestos.

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-09-28, Peter Crosland wrote:

> On 28/09/2013 13:37, cskri...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> My friend has a defunct water tank in her loft, which is in a 60s brick semi. Evidently the plumber opted to just leave it there when he upgraded the system and installed a plastic, tank since it is very heavy.
>>
>> It appears to be made of an asbestos material,but I may be wrong about this. Being a water tank I presume it is not intrinsically hazardous, but I am contemplating breaking it up to dispose of it. Do you think there would be hazards in doing this?
>

> Absolutely not! It very probably is asbestos and needs dealing with
> professionally that will probably cost into four figures. Otherwise just
> leave it where it is as it is doing no harm.

I'm curious: why did they make water tanks with asbestos? They're not
normally considered a fire hazard.

[The Natural Philosopher]

It may not BE asbestos anyway. A lot of stuff is/was made out of cement
with a fibrous filler in it to add tensile strength - early version of
fibreglass really.

Asbestos was one suitable fibre. There are others.

[Jim K]

Er used as reinforcing for thin cement moulded products, troughings, roofing sheets, water tanks etc

Jim K

[fred]

In article <0okf491rvv7og7ouf...@4ax.com>, Chris Hogg
<m...@privacy.net> writes
>
>To the OP:
>My mother has a similar asbestos-cement water tank in her roof, in a
>property that was built in about 1960, that I will have to deal with
>eventually. The advice given here is sensible. Don't be cavalier with
>it, but don't be terrified by it. Avoid making dust. If you can
>dispose of it without breaking it up, do so. Failing that, keep it
>wet, wrap it well (old bed-sheets would seem ideal) and smash it into
>large bits with a hammer, before double-wrapping it in heavy duty
>polythene (e.g. damp-proof membrane) and disposing of it through the
>appropriate channels, as described by others in this thread.
>
>This is one application that would _not_ be suitable for an angle
>grinder!
>
An excellent post, thanks for sharing your knowledge.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

[The Other Mike]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 20:20:53 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

>I'm curious: why did they make water tanks with asbestos? They're not
>normally considered a fire hazard.

So that if the house caught fire, the water tank would not put the fire out and
you coudl get a full rebuild rather than a repair?

I'd guess light, cheap, non rusting


--

[Peter Parry]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 20:20:53 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>

>I'm curious: why did they make water tanks with asbestos? They're not
>normally considered a fire hazard.

I don't think anyone ever produced an asbestos tank. Tanks were made
of asbestos cement which contains about 90% cement and 10% white
asbestos fibre as a cheap, lightweight non corroding fibre
reinforcement. The mixture was easy to pressure mould so used for
roofing sheets, formed items such as water tanks, drainage pipes etc.

[The Natural Philosopher]

..and has never been associated with any especial dangers.

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-09-30, Peter Parry wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Sep 2013 20:20:53 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>I'm curious: why did they make water tanks with asbestos? They're not
>>normally considered a fire hazard.

(I didn't mean "with" = "entirely from".)

> I don't think anyone ever produced an asbestos tank. Tanks were made
> of asbestos cement which contains about 90% cement and 10% white
> asbestos fibre as a cheap, lightweight non corroding fibre
> reinforcement. The mixture was easy to pressure mould so used for
> roofing sheets, formed items such as water tanks, drainage pipes etc.

Fair point. I was aware of roofing, shed walls, & so on, but had
always assumed fire-resistance was part of the point of using asbestos
as the fibre.

[dochol...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 30, 2013 1:48:51 PM UTC+1, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2013-09-30, Peter Parry wrote:
>

<snip>

>
> > I don't think anyone ever produced an asbestos tank. Tanks were made
> > of asbestos cement which contains about 90% cement and 10% white
> > asbestos fibre as a cheap, lightweight non corroding fibre
> > reinforcement. The mixture was easy to pressure mould so used for
> > roofing sheets, formed items such as water tanks, drainage pipes etc.
>
> Fair point. I was aware of roofing, shed walls, & so on, but had
> always assumed fire-resistance was part of the point of using asbestos
> as the fibre.

Not just asbestos cement - it was used as a filler/fibre reinforcement in some plastic products, too - toilet seats and cisterns, and some plastic floor tiles among other things. Some artex contained asbestos, too.
Does anyone remember the asbestos product sold for making custom wall plugs - you were instructed to take a suitable amount, add some water (though I seem to remember most people used to just spit on it) and roll it between your hands to make a suitable size plug...

[charles]

In article <37eefa37-f04b-48e6...@googlegroups.com>,

Rawlplastic. Excellent stuff, I've still got some. It took 30 years to
get a decent replacement. I had a friend whose wife insisted he stop using
it on health grounds - he died of a heart attack a few years later.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[fred]

In article <37eefa37-f04b-48e6...@googlegroups.com>,
dochol...@gmail.com writes

>
>Does anyone remember the asbestos product sold for making custom wall plugs -
>you were instructed to take a suitable amount, add some water (though I seem to
>remember most people used to just spit on it) and roll it between your hands to
>make a suitable size plug...

I remember my dad using it extensively before wallplugs became popular,
it worked well and yes, spit was the common binder. Came complete with
an angled prodder, spike on the short end to make a starting hole for
the screw. Non-reversible when set though.

Found a tin (cylinder) of it when clearing our his shed, Rawlplug brand.
I of course called out a full hazmat team who decontaminated the whole
scene for what I thought was a very reasonable 2k + vat.

<er . . . not . . . . >

[Peter Crosland]

On 29/09/2013 09:30, Huge wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 20:13:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>> Ignore the morons who say it can be safely broken. It cant, and if
>> you
>>>> have ever seen the tragic results of exposure to asbestos you
>> would
>>>> know why. Double bag it in polythene and take it to a registered
>>>> disposal site taking care not to accidentally break it.
>>>
>>> Utter rubbish. teh hazards of asbestos came after lifetime exposure to
>>> dust in mines and factories where it was prevalent.
>

> Glad to see you're still fully justifying your killfile entry.

+1


--
Peter Crosland

[The Natural Philosopher]

wht dont you actualy research the FACTS

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2003/e03189.htm

Or are facts out of fashion?