Wooden Sills with UPVC windows?

[Jo]

We are (sadly) having to renew the windows in our 1920s property. There are
currently wooden sills in good condition in the house and we would prefer to
keep these if possible when the new windows are installed.
Has anyone had any experience of fitting new UPVC windows with existing
sills?

[stuart noble]

Not a lot of point IMO. In for a penny...

[Roger Mills]

On 15/01/2012 14:14, Jo wrote:

Not sure whether you're talking about the external or internal sills.
The new windows will be supplied with external sills, which sit on the
brickwork immediately under the frame.

If the internal sills are in good condition, leave them in situ and
simply butt the new frames against them - with maybe a bit of quartering
to cover any slight gaps. Great care will be needed to avoid damaging
the internal sills when the old frames are removed. The sills may well
have a step near the outer edge, with the thin bit fitting into a groove
in the wooden frame. If you're not very careful, this will break off and
may well split the sill further in. If the stepped bit doesn't break
off, it will probably need trimming off to allow the new frame to occupy
the same space as the old one.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

[Jo]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9ngnae...@mid.individual.net...

Ah, I didn't make that clear. It is the internal wooden sills we would like
to keep. One window company has said that they wouldn't fit UPVC window
frames with existing wooden sills, but others say different!
We have red tiled outer sills which we have been told can stay.
Knowing nothing at all about windows it's all a bit daunting!

However, thanks for your comments. Much appreciated.

Jo

[Cash]

Jo,

You can fit UPVc windows upto the internal cill with very few problems
(usually). You can get the odd one that's loose or splits and these are
usually solved as Roger has suggested with plastic quadrant or small section
cover strips.

If the sill is badly damaged during the replacement (or you want something a
bit more aesthetic to go with the UPVc windows), then plastic over-sills can
be fitted onto the top of the wooden ones at reasonable cost.

Personally I would forget the company that refuses to do this, as it's a
simple job to do - and they may well charge the earth for fitting the
over-sills (because unless they rip the old ones out [messy and usually
needless], that's all they will do anyway).

Remember to choose a company that's FENSA registered, otherwise you will
have to get the local council involved to issue the necessary paperwork upon
completion to say the job is OK. A lot of expense and bull manure, but
that's the law now (blame John Prescot).

Hope this is of some help

Cash

[Jim K]

On Jan 15, 8:30 pm, "Cash" <.............\\@...............//.com>
wrote:
<snip>

> Remember to choose a company that's FENSA registered, otherwise you will
> have to get the local council involved to issue the necessary paperwork upon
> completion to say the job is OK. A lot of expense and bull manure, but
> that's the law now (blame John Prescot).

or just make it a written condition of the contract that the supplier
obtains and gives to you Building Regs approval certs before final
payment. FENSA is only one (marketing inspired) way to skin the
"legal" cat.....

Jim K

[harry]

The will probably be rotten in some hidden place (eg underneath).
Get rid of them. You will regret keeping them in the future if you
don't.

What's the point of maintenece free windows and sills you have to
paint?

[Cash]

I quite agree with you there Jim - a bloody stitch-up by the UPVc lobbyists
when Prescot was in power.

Cash

[Jim K]

FFS read the thread!!!! Internal...

Jim K

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:30:10 -0000, Cash wrote:

>> Ah, I didn't make that clear. It is the internal wooden sills we
>> would like to keep. One window company has said that they
wouldn't
>> fit UPVC window frames with existing wooden sills,

Don't use them then. They may have got confused ext v int cills. I
can see that fitting a new fram onto existing external timber would
be interesting. But fitting against existing wooden internal
shouldn't be a problem at all. The snags will be cuased by how easy
it is or isn't to seperate the old frame from the cill. If a window
is removed carefully there should be very little damage to the
internal cill and plaster. A bit of filler will deal with the slight
gap between existing plaster and new frame. A bit of quadrant might
be required along the back edge of the cill but wood filler might be
better depending on the finish, varnished or painted.

> Remember to choose a company that's FENSA registered, otherwise you will
> have to get the local council involved to issue the necessary paperwork
> upon completion to say the job is OK.

FENSA or council BC only mean that the things fitted meet the
regulations nothing to do with the job being OK.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[John Miller]

"Jo" wrote in message
news:ldOdnViZ-eTYQo_S...@brightview.co.uk...

____________________________________________________

We had our windows replaced some years ago and the existing internal sills
were left intact - any gaps being covered with a uPVC strip. The company
actually advised us to keep the wooden ones as the plastic sills are prone
to being scratched if you put plant pots, vases, etc. on to them. We still
have wooden skirting boards, etc, so just paint the sills whenever the rest
of the room is decorated.

John M

[Cash]

Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 20:30:10 -0000, Cash wrote:
>
>>> Ah, I didn't make that clear. It is the internal wooden sills we
>>> would like to keep. One window company has said that they
> wouldn't
>>> fit UPVC window frames with existing wooden sills,
>
> Don't use them then. They may have got confused ext v int cills. I
> can see that fitting a new fram onto existing external timber would
> be interesting.

I quite agree there, especially as the cill on a timber window usually
forms and integral part of the frame.

>But fitting against existing wooden internal
> shouldn't be a problem at all. The snags will be cuased by how easy
> it is or isn't to seperate the old frame from the cill. If a window
> is removed carefully there should be very little damage to the
> internal cill and plaster.

A bigger problem is caused by the difference in sizes between timber and
UPVc materials.

A bit of filler will deal with the slight
> gap between existing plaster and new frame. A bit of quadrant might
> be required along the back edge of the cill but wood filler might be
> better depending on the finish, varnished or painted.

I've tried using filler between plaster and frame but ulitmately ended
fitting small section, plastic architrave to hide the joint.

>> Remember to choose a company that's FENSA registered, otherwise you
>> will have to get the local council involved to issue the necessary
>> paperwork upon completion to say the job is OK.
>
> FENSA or council BC only mean that the things fitted meet the
> regulations nothing to do with the job being OK.

That's what I meant Dave as regards to the legal niceties (I should have
made that clearer) - as for defects in materials and workmanship, that's
another matter.

All interesting stuff, especially when you renew with UPVc, the old box
frame windows that sit behind the external wall (in the cavity) rather than
between the reveals.


Cash

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:45:48 -0000, Cash wrote:

>> They may have got confused ext v int cills. I can see that fitting
a
>> new fram onto existing external timber would be interesting.
>
> I quite agree there, especially as the cill on a timber window usually
> forms and integral part of the frame.

I reckon you could do it but you have to remove the sides from the
cill some how which would probably mean removing the entire cill and
you'd have to make good the ends of the cill from the jointing
somehow. Though that would be coverd by the new uPVC frame sitting on
top. A lot of work.

> I've tried using filler between plaster and frame but ulitmately ended
> fitting small section, plastic architrave to hide the joint.

What was the problem? I hate stuck on trim bits. I'd fill a large gap
(>5mm) with with plaster/polyfilla and expect a crack to appear
between it and the frame, I'd then fill that with decorators chaulk,
that allows for the small movements without cracking. If the orginal
gap was small it would be straight in with the decorators chaulk.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Man at B&Q]

Plastic internal cills are naff.

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

On Jan 15, 2:44 pm, Tim Streater <timstrea...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> Then plastic filler pieces all round the inside to
> make good and seal better.

To avoid doing the job properly, you mean.

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

On Jan 17, 9:23 am, "Dave Liquorice"

<allsortsnotthis...@howhill.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:45:48 -0000, Cash wrote:
> >> They may have got confused ext v int cills. I can see that fitting
> a
> >> new fram onto existing external timber would be interesting.
>
> > I quite agree there, especially as the cill on a timber window usually
> > forms and integral part of the frame.
>
> I reckon you could do it but you have to remove the sides from the
> cill some how which would probably mean removing the entire cill and
> you'd have to make good the ends of the cill from the jointing
> somehow. Though that would be coverd by the new uPVC frame sitting on
> top. A lot of work.
>
> > I've tried using filler between plaster and frame but ulitmately ended
> > fitting small section, plastic architrave to hide the joint.
>
> What was the problem? I hate stuck on trim bits.

+1 They're a real bodge.

MBQ

[stuart noble]

A mix of pvc and wood isn't pretty either

[Jim K]

On Jan 17, 2:00 pm, Tim Streater <timstrea...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <cGdRq.2076$do1.1...@newsfe20.ams2>,

> stuart noble <stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > On 17/01/2012 09:35, Man at B&Q wrote:
> > > On Jan 15, 3:53 pm, stuart noble<stuart_no...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > >> On 15/01/2012 14:14, Jo wrote:
>
> > >>> We are (sadly) having to renew the windows in our 1920s property. There
> > >>> are currently wooden sills in good condition in the house and we would
> > >>> prefer to keep these if possible when the new windows are installed.
> > >>> Has anyone had any experience of fitting new UPVC windows with existing
> > >>> sills?
>
> > >> Not a lot of point IMO. In for a penny...
>
> > > Plastic internal cills are naff.

> > A mix of pvc and wood isn't pretty either
>

> Depends dunnit? Our cills are white-painted wood and the uPVC filler
> pieces are also white.

my old place had white upvc DG and satin varnished pine (inner) cills
- looked smart IMHO tho I reckon they were "new" when "whoever" did
the windas....

Jim K

[Cash]

Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:45:48 -0000, Cash wrote:
>
>>> They may have got confused ext v int cills. I can see that fitting
> a
>>> new fram onto existing external timber would be interesting.
>>
>> I quite agree there, especially as the cill on a timber window
>> usually forms and integral part of the frame.
>
> I reckon you could do it but you have to remove the sides from the
> cill some how which would probably mean removing the entire cill and
> you'd have to make good the ends of the cill from the jointing
> somehow. Though that would be coverd by the new uPVC frame sitting on
> top. A lot of work.

As and old chippie, its not worth the time, effort or cost when replacing
wood for UPVc

>> I've tried using filler between plaster and frame but ulitmately
>> ended fitting small section, plastic architrave to hide the joint.
>
> What was the problem? I hate stuck on trim bits. I'd fill a large gap
> (>5mm) with with plaster/polyfilla and expect a crack to appear
> between it and the frame, I'd then fill that with decorators chaulk,
> that allows for the small movements without cracking. If the orginal
> gap was small it would be straight in with the decorators chaulk.

Just simple movement of different materials Dave - even using decorators
caulk which has caused problems with wallpaper joints twixt window and
paper. After several attempts at trying to get (and maintain) a good,
permanent job, I gave up and simply stuck some plastic architrave around the
frame and finished the wallpaper there - which has now cured the problem.

Note, this is in my own house and experimenting on a problematic window with
gaps around the frame due to a number of reasons - when I was involved in
the installation of UPVc as a living some years ago, it was easier to use
plastic architrave to 'hide' small sections of damage to clients decorations
in the work area (wall paper and emulsion are real bitches to patch
successfully in that situation).

Cash

[Cash]

MBQ,

Only a bodge if done in an amateurish or slapdash way - and on most
window/door replacements, it's the only way to prevent the expense of
redecoration.

But as in all things on maintenance works, it's the situation and client
reactions that call the shots, irrespective of what you would like to do -
what you do in your own property though is quite a different matter
(especially when SHMBO is breathing down your neck!) ;-)

Cash

Cash

[Man at B&Q]

On Jan 17, 3:52 pm, "Cash" <.............\\@...............//.com>
wrote:

> Man at B&Q wrote:
> > On Jan 17, 9:23 am, "Dave Liquorice"
> > <allsortsnotthis...@howhill.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:45:48 -0000, Cash wrote:
> >>>> They may have got confused ext v int cills. I can see that fitting
> >> a
> >>>> new fram onto existing external timber would be interesting.
>
> >>> I quite agree there, especially as the cill on a timber window
> >>> usually forms and integral part of the frame.
>
> >> I reckon you could do it but you have to remove the sides from the
> >> cill some how which would probably mean removing the entire cill and
> >> you'd have to make good the ends of the cill from the jointing
> >> somehow. Though that would be coverd by the new uPVC frame sitting on
> >> top. A lot of work.
>
> >>> I've tried using filler between plaster and frame but ulitmately
> >>> ended fitting small section, plastic architrave to hide the joint.
>
> >> What was the problem? I hate stuck on trim bits.
>
> > +1 They're a real bodge.
>
> > MBQ
>
> MBQ,
>
> Only a bodge if done in an amateurish or slapdash way - and on most
> window/door replacements, it's the only way to prevent the expense of
> redecoration.
>

Maybe I've been lucky or maybe I've employed a better class of fitter
(when not doing it myself). I've never found much redecoration
required other than moving into a house that had already been done and
removing the cover strip bodges.

MBQ