Is it common for copper pipe to be too soft for compression fittings?

[tin...@isbd.co.uk]

I recently bought some 10mm copper tube from tradingdepot.co.uk:-

COP10/10/BARE 1 15.67 Coil Plain Copper Tube 10mm x 10m

However I'm finding it *very* difficult to make good compression
fitted joints with it. I've not had any problems at all with some
older 10mm pipe I have (existing installation) and nor do I ever have
any problems with larger sizes. I've made many, many compression
fitted joints over the years and I've never had as much hassle as I've
had with this particular pipe.

On disassembly (of leaking joints) the olives have deformed
considerable and dug into the pipe. Normally when I take my
compression fittings apart it's possible to remove the olives (with a
bit of persuasion) but with this pipe there's absolutely no chance of
doing this.

How do I make sure that any further 10mm copper I buy is stiff/hard
enough to take compression fittings well?


--
Chris Green

[Toby]

Sounds like you are dong them up too much for this pipe if the olives
are that deformed - are you sure it is the pipe, and not the olives that
are at fault here?

--
Toby...
Remove pants to reply

[harryagain]

<tin...@isbd.co.uk> wrote in message news:kht6n9-...@chris.zbmc.eu...

Sounds to me like you're over tightening them.
You can get round the problem by winding some PTFE tape on top of the olive.
Or using solder fittings which are cheaper anyway.

[Mr Pounder]

"harryagain" <harol...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:k7qij9$69v$1...@dont-email.me...

I have been told that using PTFE tape is now standard practice.
Used to be jointing paste when I was a lad.
When ..........





>
>

[GB]

On 12/11/2012 10:50, Mr Pounder wrote:

> I have been told that using PTFE tape is now standard practice.
> Used to be jointing paste when I was a lad.
> When ..........

I still prefer jointing paste. As an amateur plumber I find it much
easier to use. It's obviously messier.

[The Natural Philosopher]

10mm is a total bitch. All my joints ended up with red boss or summat
smeared everywhere to stop the leaks


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Mr Pounder]

"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:50a0d581$0$1144$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...

When I was an apprentice I don't remember anybody using PTFE on compression
joints.
When I first saw it being used I considered it to be a botch up. I now have
to admit that it is a good idea.


>

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:08:27 +0000, Toby wrote:

>> COP10/10/BARE 1 15.67 Coil Plain Copper Tube

Coiled pipe will be soft other wise it would be rather hard to uncoil.

>> On disassembly (of leaking joints) the olives have deformed
>> considerable and dug into the pipe.

Olives deformed *and* dug into the pipe? Doesn't sound right (well it's
not with a leaky joint). Are the olives soft copper or hard brass?

> Sounds like you are dong them up too much for this pipe if the olives
> are that deformed - are you sure it is the pipe, and not the olives
> that are at fault here?

I'd go with that, can't decide if a soft pipe needs a soft olive or a
hard one. I suspect soft and not murdered up. A compression joint should
not require any tape or jointing compound. Having said that I do put a
merest smear of compound on mine but I do mean very little, more for
lubrication than sealing.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[tin...@isbd.co.uk]

Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:08:27 +0000, Toby wrote:
>
> >> COP10/10/BARE 1 15.67 Coil Plain Copper Tube
>
> Coiled pipe will be soft other wise it would be rather hard to uncoil.
>
> >> On disassembly (of leaking joints) the olives have deformed
> >> considerable and dug into the pipe.
>
> Olives deformed *and* dug into the pipe? Doesn't sound right (well it's
> not with a leaky joint). Are the olives soft copper or hard brass?
>

Copper olives.

As I said everything works fine on the old, already installed, pipe.
It's just this new pipe I'm having problems with. On disassembling
the joints the olives are nothing like the ones on successfully made
joints, the edges of the olive are sort of collapsed/imbedded into the
pipe.

> > Sounds like you are dong them up too much for this pipe if the olives
> > are that deformed - are you sure it is the pipe, and not the olives
> > that are at fault here?
>
> I'd go with that, can't decide if a soft pipe needs a soft olive or a
> hard one. I suspect soft and not murdered up. A compression joint should
> not require any tape or jointing compound. Having said that I do put a
> merest smear of compound on mine but I do mean very little, more for
> lubrication than sealing.

Quite. I'm *not* doing them up particularly tight, especially not to
start with, just a quarter of a turn or a little more after the nut
has tightened.

--
Chris Green

[Nightjar]

On 12/11/2012 09:53, tin...@isbd.co.uk wrote:

> I recently bought some 10mm copper tube from tradingdepot.co.uk:-
>
> COP10/10/BARE 1 15.67 Coil Plain Copper Tube 10mm x 10m
>
> However I'm finding it *very* difficult to make good compression
> fitted joints with it. I've not had any problems at all with some
> older 10mm pipe I have (existing installation) and nor do I ever have
> any problems with larger sizes. I've made many, many compression
> fitted joints over the years and I've never had as much hassle as I've
> had with this particular pipe.

...

Microbore tubing is to Table Y of the British Standard and is fully
annealed, which means it is soft. Normally copper plumbing pipe of 15mm
and over is to Table X and is half-hard, although it can also be
obtained in fully hard condition (Table Z), which has thinner walls and,
therefore, uses less copper. The harder the tube, the more difficult it
is to bend, hence the use of fully annealed for microbore, which is
often chosen for its ability to be fitted into difficult places.

Colin Bignell

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <kht6n9-...@chris.zbmc.eu>,

Had the same problem with the soft 10mm tails at a mixer - I originally
tried to use 15 x 10 mm compression reducers. After much messing around,
couldn't get it drip free. Ended up using end feed solder ones - not ideal
if it ever has to come apart. Would be interesting to see if push fit
works better - I suspect it would.

--
*Plagiarism saves time *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Tim Watts]

I have only used paste on old joints that have been distrubed. Not one of my
new joints has been anything but dry - given I am an amateur, I despair of
any professional who needs to do this as a matter of course...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent
moral busybodies."

[tin...@isbd.co.uk]

Ah, now that would explain it somewhat. Maybe I should try and get
some half-hard 10mm copper. I think the straight lengths sold in the
French diy stores might be harder (this is for use in France), I need
very little so price isn't a big issue.

--
Chris Green

[Onetap]

On Monday, November 12, 2012 12:28:23 PM UTC, Nightjar wrote:

> Microbore tubing is to Table Y of the British Standard and is fully
>
> annealed, which means it is soft. Normally copper plumbing pipe of 15mm
>
> and over is to Table X and is half-hard, although it can also be
>
> obtained in fully hard condition (Table Z), which has thinner walls and,
>
> therefore, uses less copper. The harder the tube, the more difficult it
>
> is to bend, hence the use of fully annealed for microbore, which is
>
> often chosen for its ability to be fitted into difficult places.

This is true, however the BS Tables X, Y and Z have been superseded by some BS EN spec that I can't recall the name of. Use of the word 'tube' noted and applauded.

I'd suspect the OP has got dodgy fittings or olives; metric fittings and imperial pipe possibly? There is a lot of imperial soft annealed pipe used for refrigeration, because many of the fittings are made in the USA

[Nightjar]

On 12/11/2012 14:10, Onetap wrote:
> On Monday, November 12, 2012 12:28:23 PM UTC, Nightjar wrote:
>
>> Microbore tubing is to Table Y of the British Standard and is fully
>>
>> annealed, which means it is soft. Normally copper plumbing pipe of 15mm
>>
>> and over is to Table X and is half-hard, although it can also be
>>
>> obtained in fully hard condition (Table Z), which has thinner walls and,
>>
>> therefore, uses less copper. The harder the tube, the more difficult it
>>
>> is to bend, hence the use of fully annealed for microbore, which is
>>
>> often chosen for its ability to be fitted into difficult places.
>
> This is true, however the BS Tables X, Y and Z have been superseded by some BS EN spec that I can't recall the name of.

BS EN 1057, but nobody I know uses it. The plumbing trade is full of
people who use old names for things. I still get orders for Byelaw kits
and the Water Byelaws were superseded in 1999. The equivalents in BS EN
1057 BTW are Table Y - R220, Table X - R250 and Table Z - R290.

> Use of the word 'tube' noted and applauded.

I also supply products for pipes.

> I'd suspect the OP has got dodgy fittings or olives; metric fittings and imperial pipe possibly? There is a lot of imperial soft annealed pipe used for refrigeration, because many of the fittings are made in the USA

Apparently the OP is in France, so it is probably all metric, but, being
French, possibly not metric as we know it.

Colin Bignell

[charles]

In article <sOqdnTmPFICatzzN...@giganews.com>,

Nightjar <c...@insert.my.surname.here.me.uk> wrote:

> BS EN 1057, but nobody I know uses it. The plumbing trade is full of
> people who use old names for things.

I still ask for timber by imperial sizes and today I bought some 4" x 2"
electrical trunking. It's not just plumbers ...

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[tin...@isbd.co.uk]

Nightjar <c...@insert.my.surname.here.me.uk> wrote:
>
> > I'd suspect the OP has got dodgy fittings or olives; metric fittings and imperial pipe possibly? There is a lot of imperial soft annealed pipe used for refrigeration, because many of the fittings are made in the USA
>
> Apparently the OP is in France, so it is probably all metric, but, being
> French, possibly not metric as we know it.
>

Er, the pipe fitting work is in France, I'm in the UK just now but off
to France again tomorrow.

It's supposed to be all 10mm, there's never been any imperial bits
mixed in with it, the original pipework is from Belgium and marked
10mm (among other things). The original pipes (which I'm having no
trouble with) are definitely much stiffer to bend than the new stuff
which I'm having trouble with.

I have found that bending this soft pipe (with a proper pipe bender)
is very difficult too, it just collapses into creases. However bending
the original harder pipe, while it takes a bit of effort, actually
produces a nicely curved pipe with no creases.

--
Chris Green

[Onetap]

On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:48:04 PM UTC, tin...@isbd.co.uk wrote:
>
> I have found that bending this soft pipe (with a proper pipe bender)
>
> is very difficult too, it just collapses into creases. However bending
>
> the original harder pipe, while it takes a bit of effort, actually
>
> produces a nicely curved pipe with no creases.

Sounds like unsuitable pipe, possibly thin-walled stuff (and so cheap) that's been passed off as something better somewhere up the supply chain. I'd get some more. It is copper and not plated steel?

[John Rumm]

End feed fitting reducers can work well for tap tails. That way the
reducer can go straight into a 15mm service valve.



--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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\=================================================================/

[js...@ntlworld.com]

Are you using 10mm copper pipe inserts aren't you?
They push into the end of 10mm pipe, so tightening prevents collapse.

Ebay UK item 190545998698.
BES UK item 19949 "Brass insert for use with soft copper tube; recommended when using a compression fitting".

Just no-one mentioned them...

Quietly, I am convert to John Guest although I recall it can not be used for some applications, eg, Megaflow type applications re theoretical pressure & temperature re safety device failure.

[fred]

In article <9308acf7-e4c0-4ad2...@googlegroups.com>,
js...@ntlworld.com writes

>Are you using 10mm copper pipe inserts aren't you?
>They push into the end of 10mm pipe, so tightening prevents collapse.
>
>Ebay UK item 190545998698.
>BES UK item 19949 "Brass insert for use with soft copper tube; recommended
>when using a compression fitting".
>
>Just no-one mentioned them...
>

News to me, ta, I've only soldered it before.

It looks like the 19949 is the code for 15mm, 18463 for 10mm:

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/139.asp

>Quietly, I am convert to John Guest although I recall it can not be used for some
>applications, eg, Megaflow type applications re theoretical pressure & temperature
>re safety device failure.

Likewise, nice long pipe runs so fewer joints, aaaand you can use
compression on them too, cheap as chips.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

[Onetap]

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 4:47:22 PM UTC, fred wrote:

> Likewise, nice long pipe runs so fewer joints, aaaand you can use
>
> compression on them too, cheap as chips.

True, but expands a lot more than copper and sags; it looks utter shit if exposed.
And mice like to gnaw it.

It's other big advantage is that it has no scrap value and the pikies won't nick it, so it's useful in certain building types..