making ledge and brace doors with frames - 2 questions
John Nagelson
was thinking of going the whole hog and making the doors framed.
I know with ledge and brace doors you are supposed to fix the ledges
to a stile and then once all ledges and stiles are fixed together, put
in the braces.
Can someone tell me - what is the procedure when making a framed ledge
and brace door? Make the frame first, or what? It doesn't sound right
to fix the ledges and braces to the stiles and then put the frame on
at the end. Not that I would know! Why is why I'm asking...
Second question - what's the best way to secure the doors? Monkey tail
bolt on one side... Night latch to secure them together, or what?
Thanks!
John
Cash
> Hi, I'm planning to make two ledge and brace doors for my garage, and
> was thinking of going the whole hog and making the doors framed.
>
> I know with ledge and brace doors you are supposed to fix the ledges
> to a stile and then once all ledges and stiles are fixed together, put
> in the braces.
>
> Can someone tell me - what is the procedure when making a framed ledge
> and brace door? Make the frame first, or what? It doesn't sound right
> to fix the ledges and braces to the stiles and then put the frame on
> at the end. Not that I would know! Why is why I'm asking...
John,
(Brief description only)
Make the frame first, using through mortise and tenon joints for the top,
middle and bottom rails and the two braces housed into the three rails. Then
fit the T,G&V boarding onto the frame - remember, that because the two
stiles are machine rebated to take the boards, the rails and braces will
need to of thinner stock than the stiles by the depth of the rebate to
enable the boards to be properly fitted.
> Second question - what's the best way to secure the doors? Monkey tail
> bolt on one side... Night latch to secure them together, or what?
That depends on your level of security - and remember, that due to the
design, you can fit a high quality, five-lever mortice lock to this type of
door (my preference would be a Chubb five-lever, with case hardened insert
pins and fully enclosed receiver).
I would also advise the use of good quality timber (pressure treated if
using softwood).
Cash
Cash
> John Nagelson wrote:
>> Hi, I'm planning to make two ledge and brace doors for my garage, and
>> was thinking of going the whole hog and making the doors framed.
>>
>> I know with ledge and brace doors you are supposed to fix the ledges
>> to a stile and then once all ledges and stiles are fixed together,
>> put in the braces.
>>
>> Can someone tell me - what is the procedure when making a framed
>> ledge and brace door? Make the frame first, or what? It doesn't
>> sound right to fix the ledges and braces to the stiles and then put
>> the frame on at the end. Not that I would know! Why is why I'm
>> asking...
>
> John,
>
> (Brief description only)
>
> Make the frame first, using through mortise and tenon joints for the
> top, middle and bottom rails and the two braces housed into the three
> rails. Then fit the T,G&V boarding onto the frame - remember, that
> because the two stiles are machine rebated to take the boards, the
> rails and braces will need to of thinner stock than the stiles by the
> depth of the rebate to enable the boards to be properly fitted.
*ERROR* *CORRECTION* :-(
The top rail must be of the same sized material as the stiles. The
thickness of the bottom rail can either be the same as the stiles (and
rebated) so the boards fit into the rebate (a possible water trap) or they
can be thinner to allow the boards to run right to the bottom of the door
(allowing a better water run-off)
Apologies for that.
Cash
John Rumm
Great descriptions already...
A have a few other tips that might also help:
When using the thinner stock for middle and bottom rails, the tenon on
each end of these will need to be cut flush to one side of the rail so
that it comes out in the middle of the stiles.
I normally place the bottom rail 4" or so up from the bottom of the
stile, and let the T&G boards sail past - stops the bottom rail rotting
so easily.
The traditional build order is to cut the rebates first, then make the
tenon and mortice joints. However doing it that way makes marking out
and cutting the joints a tad harder because of the rebates (especialy if
doing haunched tenons). My personal preference is to make up the all the
stiles rails and braces first, and then add the rebate with a router
after (you just need to square the corners with a chisel)
For extra strength stick a couple of cuts down each tenon about 1/2"
inch in from each edge. Then once assembled hammer glued up wedges into
the slots at the end of each tenon.
For large doors, using one continuous brace that runs from top corner to
opposing bottom corner (half lapped over the centre rail) can be a
little stronger than a pair of diagonal braces used top and bottom.
Adding feather edged capping to the top of each door also helps shed
rain of the face of it.
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
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\=================================================================/
harry
>
> - Show quoted text -
The tenon on the middle and bottom rail is assymetric "half shoulder"
ie is the same thichness as on the top rail but offset to on side.
That is you only cut away wood on one side not both.
The mortice it fits into is in the same postion as the top rail, ie in
the centre.
BTW, when you come to fit the braces (the last job) be sure to get
them the right way round. i e from lower hinge side to upper on lock
side, they are in compression. Easy to forget.
John Nagelson
wrote:
Many thanks for this, Cash, and also thanks to Harry and John.
I'm afraid some of this is going over my head, including some of the
technical terms. Does 'rail' denote just the 'ledges', or does it also
denote the top and bottom of the frame?
My current understanding is:
* each door has a frame with four sides, and then in addition to that,
three ledges and two braces
(but is that correct? :-) )
* make the frame using four mortise-and-tenon joints, and then
* fit three ledges into the frame also using m&t joints, and then
* fix t&g boards onto both frame (rebated) and ledges, and then lastly
* fix the braces (the ledges having been prepared so that the braces
fit into them nicely)?
Is that right or am I completely misunderstanding something?
I've never made a mortise-and-tenon joint before, but people say it's
easy with a router. Are they right? Any advice on this? Do I need a
special table for the router?
Thanks!
John
The Medway Handyman
Mortise & tenon is the best way, but not that easy.
I've made them as follows, using a mitre saw;
Assuming you want a door 6' high x 3' wide. Use 4 x 1 timber.
cut 2 x 72" & 2 x 36". Now cut 2 x 64" & 2 x 28".
Laminate a 72 & a 64 together to leave 4" at each end. Do that twice.
Laminate a 36 & a 28 together leaving 4" at each end. Do that twice.
You can now build the frame using half lap joints. The 4" will be the
actual width of the 4 x 1 timber.
You can see that its easy to incorporate a central ledge using the same
technique.
Use 1 x 1 timber glued & pinned to make the rebate to hold the T&G.
Braces can also be half lapped.
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
harry
>
> - Show quoted text -
Making your own ledge & brace door is not reccomended for a first time
carpentry project. It'll take a couple of days at least if you haven't
done one before. You will need three sash cramps and a completely flat
surface to assemble/glue the door up on or it will be twisted and
won't fit the door opening properly.
A router is not an ideal tool, most won't cut deep enough and it's
hard to get the mortice exactly perpendicular. If you don't get it
perpendicular, your door will have a twist when assembled.
The tool of choice is a morticing machine which virtually no amateurs
have.
You might have a drill stand you could drill a series of holes with
that & chisel out afterwards. Again the holes have to be
perpendicular/pparallel tothe door face.
harry
>
> - Show quoted text -
BTW. It's a lot easier to make up the frame without the rebates for
the planks.
Put the rebates in after assembly with your router. The corners will
have to be chiselled out.
John Rumm
OK, not completed yet, but I have done you some pictures (click on them
for larger versions):
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Making_a_framed_ledge_and_brace_door
> My current understanding is:
>
> * each door has a frame with four sides, and then in addition to that,
> three ledges and two braces
>
> (but is that correct? :-) )
Not quite, a frame with three sides, and two ledges and two braces.
> * make the frame using four mortise-and-tenon joints, and then
The frame (i.e. stiles and top rail) is assembled with the middle and
lower rail as one activity.
> * fix t&g boards onto both frame (rebated) and ledges, and then lastly
I normally do this last.
> * fix the braces (the ledges having been prepared so that the braces
> fit into them nicely)?
and do this one before last.
> Is that right or am I completely misunderstanding something?
Nope, sounds like you are close.
> I've never made a mortise-and-tenon joint before, but people say it's
> easy with a router. Are they right? Any advice on this? Do I need a
> special table for the router?
If you are talking big (ish) M&T joints like those for a garage door
etc, then you can cut the tenon with a router and a simple jig
relatively easily, but the mortices will probably be too deep (its hard
finding a 4" depth of cut router bit!).
The manual way is to mark out, drill a sequence of adjacent holes
through the stock to remove most of the material, and then use a chisel
to square up and connect the drill holes. Placing a known square lump of
wood on top of the piece you are working on to hold the back of the
chisel against will ensure you are chopping square to the top and get
nice parallel mortices.
John Nagelson
> OK, not completed yet, but I have done you some pictures (click on them
> for larger versions):
>
> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Making_a_framed_ledge_and_b...
Thanks in particular for this, which is very much appreciated, as is
all the info from everyone who has responded.
I will have to study it properly before working out whether I have any
further questions!
Cheers!
John
John Nagelson
wrote:
> On 14/03/2011 08:32, John Nagelson wrote:
> Laminate a 72 & a 64 together to leave 4" at each end. Do that twice.
>
> Laminate a 36 & a 28 together leaving 4" at each end. Do that twice.
Thanks Dave. One very newbie question - what does it mean to
"laminate" two pieces of wood together? Does it mean to stick them
together using PVA wood glue, or something more advanced?
John
John Nagelson
Thanks for this advice as to a simpler method than using mortises and
tenons. I've been thinking for about half an hour about how to half-
lap the braces. Am I right to think that with this design, they are
half-lapped to the frame, so that the leftmost and rightmost points of
the braces sit at the outer edges of the door?
Thanks!
John
Cash
John,
If you use half-lap joints on garage doors, then you will have very little
strength to hold the things together - you're simply relying on glue and a
few nails.
The only way that this method will have any strength and security, would be
if you decide to glue and nail external grade plywood to both sides of the
frame - making it into a flush (rather than an F,L,B door.
A mortise and tenon isn't that difficult to do on square timber (but a
rebate complicates things a little because you have to have one shoulder of
the tenon longer than the other) - so practice on some square timber,
assemble the joints and then use a motorised router to whip out the rebates
as required (as previously suggested in one of the replies here - and making
life easier).
A suggestion, if you are not really confident in doing the job yourself, and
have a local construction college handy in your area, nip down and ask the
head of the carpentry classes if he would get the students to make the doors
as an exercise for their course-work - and you either supply the timber, or
pay the college for it.
Paying the college may be better, as their wood machinist students could
then cut the frame material from rough sawn stock (which is cheaper to buy)
as a further exercise.
If they won't make the doors, they will almost certainly show you how it's
done - and that it's a technically simple job, even using simple hand tools
such as the old style brace and bit, along with a mallet (or hammer) and a
couple of sharp wood chisels (bloody laborious and arm-aching though). :-)
Cash
The Medway Handyman
> John Nagelson wrote:
>> On Mar 14, 8:46 am, The Medway Handyman<davidl...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> On 14/03/2011 08:32, John Nagelson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I've made them as follows, using a mitre saw;
>>>
>>> Assuming you want a door 6' high x 3' wide. Use 4 x 1 timber.
>>>
>>> cut 2 x 72"& 2 x 36". Now cut 2 x 64"& 2 x 28".
>>>
>>>
>>> Laminate a 36& a 28 together leaving 4" at each end. Do that twice.
>>>
>>> You can now build the frame using half lap joints. The 4" will be the
>>> actual width of the 4 x 1 timber.
>>>
>>> You can see that its easy to incorporate a central ledge using the
>>> same technique.
>>>
>>>
>>> Braces can also be half lapped.
>>
>> Thanks for this advice as to a simpler method than using mortises and
>> tenons. I've been thinking for about half an hour about how to half-
>> lap the braces. Am I right to think that with this design, they are
>> half-lapped to the frame, so that the leftmost and rightmost points of
>> the braces sit at the outer edges of the door?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> John
>
> John,
>
> If you use half-lap joints on garage doors, then you will have very little
> strength to hold the things together - you're simply relying on glue and a
> few nails.
My garage doors are 15 years old, made using this method and are as
strong as a very strong thing full of strongness.
On a frame made of 4 x 1 you have a glue area of 20 sq ins which when
screwed - not nailed - won't move.
My doors are 6'6" x 4' and aren't braced - and they are fine.
The Medway Handyman
> On Mar 14, 8:46 am, The Medway Handyman<davidl...@blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> On 14/03/2011 08:32, John Nagelson wrote:
>
>>
>> Laminate a 36& a 28 together leaving 4" at each end. Do that twice.
>
> Thanks Dave. One very newbie question - what does it mean to
> "laminate" two pieces of wood together? Does it mean to stick them
> together using PVA wood glue, or something more advanced?
Pretty much. I use polyurethane & a few screws/clamps.
The Medway Handyman
> On Mar 14, 8:46 am, The Medway Handyman<davidl...@blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> On 14/03/2011 08:32, John Nagelson wrote:
>
>>
>> I've made them as follows, using a mitre saw;
>>
>> Assuming you want a door 6' high x 3' wide. Use 4 x 1 timber.
>>
>> cut 2 x 72"& 2 x 36". Now cut 2 x 64"& 2 x 28".
>>
>>
>> Laminate a 36& a 28 together leaving 4" at each end. Do that twice.
>>
>> You can now build the frame using half lap joints. The 4" will be the
>> actual width of the 4 x 1 timber.
>>
>> You can see that its easy to incorporate a central ledge using the same
>> technique.
>>
>>
>> Braces can also be half lapped.
>
> Thanks for this advice as to a simpler method than using mortises and
> tenons. I've been thinking for about half an hour about how to half-
> lap the braces. Am I right to think that with this design, they are
> half-lapped to the frame, so that the leftmost and rightmost points of
> the braces sit at the outer edges of the door?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John
No, they fit the same way as the rest, but with the rails made in
sections IYSWIM.
harry
>
> - Show quoted text -
Good explanation!