Bubbling paint on walls
Caroline Hughes
polyfiller repairs). I started with a base of white vinyl silk
emulsion to even the colour out. Left it a day or so, then applied a top
coat of coloured vinyl matt emulsion. As I put it on, the paint
underneath bubbled slightly (although not all over). It tends to settle
back down when it dries, but if it is disturbed in the meantime
the paint can be peeled off as if it's a sheet of glue. The same happened
on the second coat.
I finished the wall and decided not to worry - but now I want to re-paint
the wall with a vinyl silk emulsion (for obvious reasons).
Can I prepare the wall in any way first to stop this happening? Does anyone
know why this might be happening? Could it be because
I applied vinyl matt paint over vinyl silk?
All advice gratefully received!
Caroline
R.Grenfell
"Caroline Hughes" <carolin...@btinternet.com.NOSPAM> wrote:
Had the wall had wallpaper on it before? I think sometimes left over
glue from the wallpaper can make paint bubble after a while.
Richard
--
Richard Grenfell
Cambridge
r...@mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk
gioco...@my-deja.com
house a few years ago. I tried everything!
In the end, I cleaned off as much paint as I could, and then painted
the area with white undercoat, then emulsioned on top. This worked
fine. (Maybe something had got into the plaster to react against water-
based paint?)
Good luck with this annoying problem
In article <rlg-041000...@mac6025-1.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Caroline Hughes
'polyfillering' was
that I had to strip a thick coat of artex off the wall before doing
anything. If the problem
is related to the artex (i.e some kind of residue) then I have plenty more
trouble ahead - the
previous owners covered the entire property in the stuff (and not very well
either)! When I
take the artex off it leaves the wall patchy - some bits with smooth paint
residue, other bits bare
(like unskimmed plaster) and in some places a very damaged wall!!
Caroline
<gioco...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8rf6tv$nnj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Max Bone
>Earlier this year I painted a wall in my hallway (after doing some basic
>polyfiller repairs). I started with a base of white vinyl silk
>emulsion to even the colour out. Left it a day or so, then applied a top
>coat of coloured vinyl matt emulsion. As I put it on, the paint
>underneath bubbled slightly (although not all over). It tends to settle
>back down when it dries, but if it is disturbed in the meantime
>the paint can be peeled off as if it's a sheet of glue. The same happened
>on the second coat.
>
>I finished the wall and decided not to worry - but now I want to re-paint
>the wall with a vinyl silk emulsion (for obvious reasons).
>Can I prepare the wall in any way first to stop this happening? Does anyone
>know why this might be happening? Could it be because
>I applied vinyl matt paint over vinyl silk?
>
>All advice gratefully received!
Most manufacturers recommended that you do not apply a vinyl matt over a
vinyl silk for reasons of poor adhesion... however if I understand what
you have said correctly, the bubbling (loss of adhesion) is occurring at
the interface of the vinyl silk with the bare filler/plastered wall, and
not at the interface between the vinyl matt and the vinyl silk? i.e. if
you peel away a bubble both layers of paint come off, and you can see
the bare wall underneath? So I'll answer this question...
It would be interesting to note the condition of surface directly under
the 'bubbling' paint... i.e. if you wipe your finger over it do you get
any chalky residue, is their any chalky residue on the back of the
removed paint flake? is their any filler on the back of the removed
paint flake?
In my experience this type of adhesion loss is generally caused by a
poorly adhering/bound substrate, as the vinyl matt dries it creates a
surface tension which highlights the poor adhesion of the original
decoration with the substrate... as you say, the bubbles generally dry
back, and the coating hardens and is harder to remove. In its soft,
drying state it is easy to remove.
When you paint a new porous plaster wall with and emulsion, you should
thin the paint to attempt to satisfy the walls porosity, allowing it to
properly bond, and form a proper coating film? As you had done alot of
'Polyfillering' you will have lots of 'hot' porous areas... and I wonder
whether you thinned the vinyl silk? As for polyfilla... I'm not sure
whether you used the ready mixed or powdered stuff, but if the latter it
may have had too much water added to it, rather than a very stiff mix.
This could also be an additional cause if you find tiny bits of filler
on the back of the flakes, or you get chalky residue on your finger...
but I don't like Polyfilla anyway...
However, now you need to do some remedial action... scrape/abrade the
whole wall to remove all loose and flaking material, then I would use an
oil based primer-sealer for plaster, to provide you with a repaired
surface which is properly bound ready for decoration (something like
Macphersons Primer Sealer). This is really the only way you can be sure
that you have solved the adhesion problem...
Regards
--
Max Bone Decorating Direct Ltd
http://www.decoratingdirect.co.uk/
hundreds of products - secure online ordering - delivered to your door
Stuart Noble
Max Bone wrote in message ...
> As you had done alot of
>'Polyfillering' you will have lots of 'hot' porous areas
polyfilla/ part old plaster surface, I'd say the artex bit would be the one
resisting the vinyl and causing the bubbles.
Andy Wade
>but I don't like Polyfilla anyway...
Interesting; could you expand on why, and say what you prefer instead?
--
Andy
Max Bone
>
>Max Bone wrote in message ...
>> As you had done alot of
>>'Polyfillering' you will have lots of 'hot' porous areas
>How so? IME Polyfilla isn't at all porous.
Heh... Polyfilla doesn't display any suction? The mind boggles... :)
The Artex bit may indeed be the cause of the loss of adhesion, but only
an examination of the specific areas affected, and the rear of the
flakes removed will confirm or disprove the cause
Max Bone
>
>Interesting; could you expand on why, and say what you prefer instead?
Causes coating adhesion problems and causes coating flashing problems,
shrinks, cracks, falls out, is not flexible.
Lightweight patching compounds which don't shrink are much better where
you have to fill walls/ceilings. Particularly bad walls would be better
lined, or reskimmed. Good decorators caulk outperforms it in the
flexibility stakes and finish. Top acrylic gluing/fillers, and flexible
two pack gluing/fillers out perform it for exterior use.
The materials cost around 5p per box... the box costs more... it is very
over priced for what it does.
rod
have been in the house for 15 years and always used bargain price emulsion.
Not necessarily inferior but old stock etc. With never a problem. Now the
surface erupts into hundreds of little bubbles which will cause the old
paint to roll off with the fresh paint, unless you proceed very carefully
I have used fairy liquid or sugar soap for washing down the walls as always
and the old paint appeared quite sound. I put the problem down to too many
layers of paint. I gave in and wallpapered my bedroom last weekend.
The worst case I had was on the kitchen ceiling last year when the fresh
paint pulled half the artex coating off. And I've painted that ceiling at
least 5 times with no problems before.
--
Rod Marten
rod@(nospam)martenhome.screaming.net
Max Bone <m...@maxmaxmax.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xtFuBHAl...@maxmaxmax.freeserve.co.uk...
> but I don't like Polyfilla anyway...
>
> However, now you need to do some remedial action... scrape/abrade the
> whole wall to remove all loose and flaking material, then I would use an
> oil based primer-sealer for plaster, to provide you with a repaired
> surface which is properly bound ready for decoration (something like
> Macphersons Primer Sealer). This is really the only way you can be sure
> that you have solved the adhesion problem...
>
Stuart Noble
Max Bone wrote in message ...
I don't know how long since you've used it, but I suggest you give it
another trial. I'm sure there was a time when it was useless but these days
it really *does* do what it says on the packet.
>Lightweight patching compounds which don't shrink<
filling.
>Good decorators caulk outperforms it in the
>flexibility stakes and finish
>The materials cost around 5p per box... the box costs more
presumbly some kind of powdered resin (pva/acrylic?) I reckon it's the same
stuff they use for filling between boards in dry lining. Now where's that
nice Mr.Schmitt?
Stuart Noble
Max Bone wrote in message
filled areas than to the plaster bits. I've stripped paper where it was
*only* stuck to the wall in the filled areas.
I'll still stick my neck out and say it exhibits virtually no suction.
That's the beauty of the stuff.
Max Bone
<stu...@waxworks.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>
>Max Bone wrote in message ...
>>Polyfilla<>shrinks, cracks, falls out, is not flexible.<
>I don't know how long since you've used it, but I suggest you give it
>another trial. I'm sure there was a time when it was useless but these days
>it really *does* do what it says on the packet.
It is some time since I last used it... about 3 years I think, but I
used to work for Polycell a few years ago... and I stand by my comments
it is over-priced for what it is/what it does, and their are far better
alternatives.
>>Lightweight patching compounds which don't shrink<
>Polyplast type things? Apply 2" thick and all that? Not fine enough for
>filling.
I was referring to the 'Patch-lite' type products as used in the US,
these are far superior patching/spackling compounds.
John Schmitt
>>The materials cost around 5p per box... the box costs more
With small quantities, the cost of the packaging can make up over 90% of the
Factory Gate Cost (FGC) Raw Material Cost (RMC) for products is normally about
5-10% of the retail cost ex-VAT. This might seem like a rip-off, but the
manufacturer has to pay its staff, the middlemen take their cut, and storage
isn't free.
>Out of interest, what are the materials in Polyfilla? Obviously chalk, and
>presumbly some kind of powdered resin (pva/acrylic?) I reckon it's the same
>stuff they use for filling between boards in dry lining. Now where's that
>nice Mr.Schmitt?
This information is about 15 years old, and based upon wet chemistry analysis,
not black box chemistry. Polyfilla appears to be partly hemihydrate plaster,
and partly filler, which might be whiting (chalk) there is also some viscosity
modifier, probably a cellulose ether (wallpaper paste to the man in the street)
to improve the workability and combat suction from dry substrates and some
redispersible PVA powder to help adhesion and toughness. There may be a sodium
salt of some organic acid (citrate, gluconate, who knows) as a set retarder.
John Schmitt
--
It's half and half. Sometimes they're lying, sometimes they don't know what's
happening. - Vladimir Urban on the Russian submarine 'Kursk' crisis.
I've got a disclaimer, and I ain't afraid to use it.
Mark Evans
> However, now you need to do some remedial action... scrape/abrade the
> whole wall to remove all loose and flaking material, then I would use an
> oil based primer-sealer for plaster, to provide you with a repaired
> surface which is properly bound ready for decoration (something like
> Macphersons Primer Sealer). This is really the only way you can be sure
> that you have solved the adhesion problem...
An alternative would be to paint the bare plaster with dilute PVA.
Which should stick the paint firmly to the wall, probably so firmly
it will never come off again...
Stuart Noble
John Schmitt wrote in message <8rkgnk$ie4$1...@aquila.news.mdx.ac.uk>...
>Polyfilla appears to be partly hemihydrate plaster,
>and partly filler, which might be whiting (chalk) there is also some
viscosity
>modifier, probably a cellulose ether (wallpaper paste to the man in the
street)
>to improve the workability and combat suction from dry substrates and some
>redispersible PVA powder to help adhesion and toughness. There may be a
sodium
>salt of some organic acid (citrate, gluconate, who knows) as a set
retarder.
Stuart Noble
Max Bone wrote in message ...
>used to work for Polycell a few years ago... and I stand by my comments
>it is over-priced for what it is/what it does, and their are far better
>alternatives.
sales side? If one were using enough of it to worry about the price, then
maybe one should be using plaster anyway. With the time it saves, £2 or so
per room is neither here nor there
>I was referring to the 'Patch-lite' type products as used in the US,
>these are far superior patching/spackling compounds.
guess what they're like. AFAIK all microspheres are expensive, and why would
you need "lite" stuff on the average wall? Celings maybe, but it seems like
overkill to me.
On really deep holes where overnight sagging might be a problem, I tend to
use car body filler up to the surface and skim with filler half an hour
later. Basic 2 part polyesters are cheap enough these days and, again, it's
the waiting time they save. A 2" deep hole filled and rubbed down the same
day. I hope you sell them on your web site :-)
Max Bone
>
>Max Bone wrote in message ...
>>It is some time since I last used it... about 3 years I think, but I
>>used to work for Polycell a few years ago... and I stand by my comments
>>it is over-priced for what it is/what it does, and their are far better
>>alternatives.
>Well, you should know about the economics of it then:-) Were you on the
>sales side?
Yes... covered the area nobody else wanted, North London all the way
upto and including East Anglia... I remember researching the company and
discovering the profits/employee ratio was 'dramatic'! :)
>A 2" deep hole filled and rubbed down the same
>day. I hope you sell them on your web site :-)
We stock it... quite frankly we stock everything! But haven't yet had
time to upload the competitively priced one yet... only the Sadolin one
has gone up... which I doubt they make themselves... so its a bit
expensive.
Thomas Prufer
<r...@nospammartenhome.screaming.net> wrote:
>You're not alone. I too have had this problem which started last year. We
>have been in the house for 15 years and always used bargain price emulsion.
>Not necessarily inferior but old stock etc. With never a problem. Now the
>surface erupts into hundreds of little bubbles which will cause the old
>paint to roll off with the fresh paint, unless you proceed very carefully
>I have used fairy liquid or sugar soap for washing down the walls as always
>and the old paint appeared quite sound. I put the problem down to too many
>layers of paint. I gave in and wallpapered my bedroom last weekend.
>
>The worst case I had was on the kitchen ceiling last year when the fresh
>paint pulled half the artex coating off. And I've painted that ceiling at
>least 5 times with no problems before.
You were using a roller? The deeper the pile, the more suction they
seem to develop, and a thick lambswool is the worst. A bodge is to
paint with a brush, and do it fast -- the fresh paint may soften the
layers underneath, so going fast means you're away by the time it's
loosened.
Thomas Prufer
Stuart Noble
Max Bone wrote in message ...
>upto and including East Anglia...
there.
>We stock it... quite frankly we stock everything! But haven't yet had
>time to upload the competitively priced one yet
hardener for a tenner. Bondaglass in Beckenham are the makers on my current
tin. Obviously the Ronseal type packs in the sheds are overpriced, even
taking into account the small sizes.
Had a quick look at your web site. Very slick.
Max Bone
>Car refinishing places seem to stock a 4kg size with 3 tubes of
>hardener for a tenner. Bondaglass in Beckenham are the makers on my current
>tin.
Thanks... I had not heard of them before, I assume you are happy with
their product? Our usual product is 'Wudfill Original', but as you've
mentioned this other product, I thought the least we could do was take a
look... so they are going to drop in some samples for us to try
tomorrow. Let me know if you have any other bright ideas! :)
>Had a quick look at your web site. Very slick.
Thanks... all my own work too :) Somebody mentioned that we got a little
exposure in the Sunday Times a couple of weeks ago, it seems that they
thought the same as you...
Stuart Noble
Max Bone wrote in message ...
>Thanks... I had not heard of them before, I assume you are happy with
>their product?
Only proviso about Bondaglass is their strange marketing policy. Once when I
ran out of "Easy Sand", I happened to be closer to Beckenham than the firm I
bought it from, so I thought I'd pop in to the trade counter and buy direct.
I didn't expect it to be any cheaper of course, but they wanted double the
price their own wholesaler was selling it for. Weird eh?
They do all kinds of specialist, smelly stuff, including the white paint
used to do platform edges on the London Underground, but they don't half
charge for it.
>>Had a quick look at your web site. Very slick.
>Thanks... all my own work too :) Somebody mentioned that we got a little
>exposure in the Sunday Times a couple of weeks ago, it seems that they
>thought the same as you...