car losing water - holts wonderweld ?

[sm_jamieson]

Well, radweld plus did not stop my 206 gti's water loss. One more thing to try - Wonderweld. It can repair some engine block / head gasket problems. The car is 14 years old and if it needed a head gasket it would probably be scrapped.
The instructions are here:
http://www.halfords.com/wcsstore/libraries/document/Wondarweld.pdf

It says run the engine for up to 2 hours until water loss stops, topping up as required. The problem is, you just cannot see the water level in the opaque 206 expansion bottle, and also, how can to top up the engine safely when it is hot? In 2 hours I reckon I'd get though an expansion bottle contents, so I'd probably run it for an hour and then cool down and top up and try half hour runs to see if it is still losing water.

Failing, this, how hard is a DIY head gasket change ? I think a garage would charge at least 500 quid. And I've heard horrors about needing to skim the blocks and replace the studs etc.

If I don't sort the leak I'll not be able to keep enough antifreeze concentration to drive it this winter.

Simon.

[Mr Pounder]

"sm_jamieson" <sm_ja...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4c586f06-f26c-4df5...@googlegroups.com...

The old fashioned remedy was to break a couple of eggs and pour the
contents into the radiator, then run the engine until it was hot.
It worked for me in my Mk 3 Cortina and you sound like you have nothing to
lose.
Changing the head gasket may very well turn into a nightmare.

[Andy Cap]

Have you tried K-seal? I've had success with it in the past?

Andy C

[sm_jamieson]

Oh, this looks easier to use, no need to drain down or worry about antifreeze left in the system. Says it will do the same things as Wondarweld.
http://www.kseal.com/uk/

[sm_jamieson]

Our messages crossed in the post !
It has very good reviews on amazon.
Simon.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <896ccaa2-6fcc-4821...@googlegroups.com>,
sm_jamieson <sm_ja...@hotmail.com> writes

In days of yore, I found that Bar's Leaks was very effective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tnafKZhvb4
It came in a much smaller bottle than in this video (like the first one
in the Amazon advert below). The liquid was brown, and very gloopy. I
believe it contained finely powdered cork.
<http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=bars+stop+leak&tag=googhydr-
21&index=aps&hvadid=25738170536&hvpos=1t2&hvexid=&hvnetw=s&hvrand=1595486
2126214121655&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9i04i9ly3z_b>

--
Ian

[Dave Liquorice]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 12:45:51 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:

> It says run the engine for up to 2 hours until water loss stops, topping > up as required. The problem is, you just cannot see the water level in
> the opaque 206 expansion bottle, and also, how can to top up the engine
> safely when it is hot?

Leave the coolant filler cap off so the system doesn't pressurise? Or
put the cap on and release it slowly to de-pressurise slowly, like
opening a well shaken bottle of pop.

> Failing, this, how hard is a DIY head gasket change ? I think a garage
> would charge at least 500 quid. And I've heard horrors about needing to
> skim the blocks and replace the studs etc.

Skiming the blocks wouldn't normally be required but if there has
been a long term leak there might be an eroded track that would need
either the block taking back to remove it or filling and leveling. I
suspect these days one can get a chemical metal filler. Some engines
do need the studs replacing as they stretch when the nuts are torqued
up. Think you really need to have a dig about and find what is
involved for your engine.

> If I don't sort the leak I'll not be able to keep enough antifreeze
> concentration to drive it this winter.

Top it up with correctly diluted antifreeze or keep a record of how
much water you bung in and every n top ups use neat antifreeze. I go
for the simpler correctly diluted method. I buy concentrate and
dilute it...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[bert]

In message <m04ggm$t5t$1...@dont-email.me>, Mr Pounder
<MrPo...@RationalThought.com> writes

>If I don't sort the leak I'll not be able to keep enough antifreeze
>concentration to drive it this winter.

When I had a similar problem I simply topped up with an
anti-freeze-water mix.
--
bert

[Chris French]

In message <4c586f06-f26c-4df5...@googlegroups.com>,
sm_jamieson <sm_ja...@hotmail.com> writes

>Well, radweld plus did not stop my 206 gti's water loss. One more thing
>to try - Wonderweld. It can repair some engine block / head gasket
>problems. The car is 14 years old and if it needed a head gasket it
>would probably be scrapped.
>The instructions are here:
>http://www.halfords.com/wcsstore/libraries/document/Wondarweld.pdf
>
>It says run the engine for up to 2 hours until water loss stops,
>topping up as required. The problem is, you just cannot see the water
>level in the opaque 206 expansion bottle, and also, how can to top up
>the engine safely when it is hot?

Leave off the filler cap on the expansion bottle while it's running?

>
>Failing, this, how hard is a DIY head gasket change ? I think a garage
>would charge at least 500 quid. And I've heard horrors about needing to
>skim the blocks and replace the studs etc.
>

Years ago I remember doing this at least once. I don't remember it as
being that hard.
--
Chris French

[meow...@care2.com]

On Friday, September 26, 2014 8:45:51 PM UTC+1, sm_jamieson wrote:

Head gasket is perfectly doable.

Expansion bottle is pretty much an irrelevance. Top up the rad, running it cap off. FWIW you might get far less leakage if you run it without pressurising.


NT

[Adrian]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 12:45:51 -0700, sm_jamieson wrote:

> Well, radweld plus did not stop my 206 gti's water loss. One more thing
> to try - Wonderweld. It can repair some engine block / head gasket
> problems.

No, it can't. It can mask them.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <66865a96-9f2b-44a6...@googlegroups.com>,
meow...@care2.com writes

Without pressurisation, it may (or will almost certainly) boil, so if
you see signs of this happening, be prepared to put the cap on, or to
switch the engine off.

From what I remember about my leaks, the best thing to do is simply to
add the leak stopper, and go for a brisk half-hour drive (but take a
bottle of top-up water with you, just in case). After that, let the
engine cool, and top up the expansion tank to the 'full' mark - then
keep an eye on things until you are certain that the leak has been
sealed.
--
Ian

[Fredxxx]

Stopping a leak is sufficient.

If successful with any additive then that could well be described as a
repair.

[Fredxxx]

I presume the car has a Haynes manual. I would recommend giving the
section of removing the head a good read. If there are any special tools
(I doubt that many would be required for a Peugeot) these would also be
mentioned.

You have to be fairly confident to remove a head but is very doable,
I've done quite a few. It is best not to be under pressure and to take
your time.

Inspect the gasket and the head, and see if you can see where the leak
is. It is generally obvious. If there is any issue with the head then
you should consider a skim.

One question. Generally head problems stem for being overheated. Has the
engine suffered anything like this prior to recent problems?

[meow...@care2.com]

On Friday, September 26, 2014 11:44:04 PM UTC+1, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <66865a96-9f2b-44a6...@googlegroups.com>,
> meow...@care2.com writes
> >On Friday, September 26, 2014 8:45:51 PM UTC+1, sm_jamieson wrote:

> >Head gasket is perfectly doable.
> >
> >Expansion bottle is pretty much an irrelevance. Top up the rad, running
> >it cap off. FWIW you might get far less leakage if you run it without
> >pressurising.

> Without pressurisation, it may (or will almost certainly) boil, so if

That is most incorrect. Pressurisation only makes any difference at and above 100C - below that, no difference. If your car doesnt hit 100 now, it wont without pressurisation. Presssurisation is a technique to allow cooling to continue to function above 100C, and thus enable a small shave on the size/weight/cost of the coolant system. But no road car engine is designed to ever reach this temp in proper operation. If you drive through the Gobi desert, perhaps.

> you see signs of this happening, be prepared to put the cap on, or to
> switch the engine off.

Putting the cap on a boiling rad is inadvisable, and achieves little. Let the engine cool. If its only overheating at idle in summer, put the interior heater on full at hottest.


NT

[harryagain]

"sm_jamieson" <sm_ja...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4c586f06-f26c-4df5...@googlegroups.com...

Run the engine at idle while parked with the top up cap removed from cold.
It will still get to normal operating temperature, just take longer.

[Andy Cap]

Flush the Radweld out first and it would be interesting to know how the
K-seal performs.

Andy C

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <4c586f06-f26c-4df5...@googlegroups.com>,

sm_jamieson <sm_ja...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Failing, this, how hard is a DIY head gasket change ? I think a garage
> would charge at least 500 quid. And I've heard horrors about needing to
> skim the blocks and replace the studs etc.

> If I don't sort the leak I'll not be able to keep enough antifreeze
> concentration to drive it this winter.

It's natural to expect the worst - but before changing the head gasket,
get some leak tracer added. It's a dye which doesn't disappear on a hot
engine as coolant does. I had a minor leak from the water pump which
didn't show up until this stuff was used.

--
*Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>,
Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> escribió:

>Leave the coolant filler cap off so the system doesn't pressurise?

The system needs to pressurise to force the gunk in the leak-stop stuff
into the hole that is the source of the leak.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Ian Jackson]

In message <vuzYvTEA...@jasper.org.uk>, Mike Tomlinson
<mi...@jasper.org.uk> writes

I think it might be a bit of a compromise. It may depend on the size of
the leak. Unpressurised, gunk would tend to seep slowly the into the
leak, and get a chance to start to harden and seal it. Under pressure,
the gunk might continue to be forced through the leak, and never quite
block it up. I'd be inclined to start off unpressurised, and when the
engine is well up to working temperature, and the now-open thermostat is
allowing the water to circulate freely, put the cap on.
--
Ian

[meow...@care2.com]

On Saturday, September 27, 2014 11:57:04 AM UTC+1, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
> En el artículo <nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.ncjd550.pminews>,

> Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> escribió:

> >Leave the coolant filler cap off so the system doesn't pressurise?
> The system needs to pressurise to force the gunk in the leak-stop stuff
> into the hole that is the source of the leak.

Unlikely. You get more chance of a seal with a slow leak than a fast one


NT

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo <V9$UnZAkp...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> escribió:

>I think it might be a bit of a compromise. It may depend on the size of
>the leak. Unpressurised, gunk would tend to seep slowly the into the
>leak, and get a chance to start to harden and seal it. Under pressure,
>the gunk might continue to be forced through the leak, and never quite
>block it up.

Hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

> I'd be inclined to start off unpressurised, and when the
>engine is well up to working temperature, and the now-open thermostat is
>allowing the water to circulate freely, put the cap on.

Sounds like a plan.

[Phil L]

"sm_jamieson" <sm_ja...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4c586f06-f26c-4df5...@googlegroups.com...

My car has had a water 'leak' for years, at first I tried everything to
remedy it but gave up when I realised that it was just losing the water from
the expansion bottle and nothing else - seriously - not another drop other
than what is poured in the bottle.

Is it overheating?

Is there any sign of water in the oil? - the dipstick and oil filler cap are
usually covered in yellowish 'soap scum'.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 27 Sep 2014 11:57:04 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

>> Leave the coolant filler cap off so the system doesn't pressurise?

>
> The system needs to pressurise to force the gunk in the leak-stop stuff
> into the hole that is the source of the leak.

See other comments about rate of leak and the gunk getting flushed
through rather than setting.

Will a modern car pressurise anyway even two hours at idle? I very
much doubt mine will but it's a 5 cylinder 2.5 l diesel and produces
sod all waste heat at idle.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> writes

Whether at tickover, or when thrashing down a motorway, I would have
thought that an engine would reach more-or-less the same temperature*.
That's what the thermostat's for. Does your temperature gauge fluctuate
a lot?
*If anything, some engines tend to overheat when idling for long
periods, especially on very hot days, and when the wind's coming from
behind.
--
Ian

[meow...@care2.com]

On Saturday, September 27, 2014 7:26:31 PM UTC+1, Phil L wrote:

> My car has had a water 'leak' for years, at first I tried everything to
> remedy it but gave up when I realised that it was just losing the water from
> the expansion bottle and nothing else - seriously - not another drop other
> than what is poured in the bottle.

That's easy - dont fill the expansion bottle. Unless you're crossing the Gobi its not needed.

> Is it overheating?
> Is there any sign of water in the oil? - the dipstick and oil filler cap are
> usually covered in yellowish 'soap scum'.

looks like margerine


NT

[Vir Campestris]

On 28/09/2014 00:46, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> That's easy - dont fill the expansion bottle. Unless you're crossing the Gobi its not needed.

Not in my car.

It pushes it up when it's hot, and sucks it all back as it cools.

Andy

[meow...@care2.com]

So put less in if your bottle leaks. Its not rocket science.


NT

[polygonum]

On 28/09/2014 21:29, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> So put less in if your bottle leaks. Its not rocket science.

Bloomin' ridiculous idea if the leak is at or near the bottom of the
expansion bottle.

--
Rod

[meow...@care2.com]

A trivial and entirely effective idea.


NT

[Vir Campestris]

OK, so it's mid-engined and more fussy than most. But the pressure is
needed to keep the bubbles under control, and you really don't want lost
bubbles in that much pipe.

Andy

[sm_jamieson]

It only started to overheat when it had lost too much water. That's how I realised there was a leak. I am topping up every couple of days, about a litre each time. But I can see no water leaking out anywhere.
Simon.

[meow...@care2.com]

On Monday, September 29, 2014 8:19:03 PM UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 28/09/2014 22:41, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 28, 2014 9:47:44 PM UTC+1, polygonum wrote:
> >> On 28/09/2014 21:29, meow...@care2.com wrote:

> >>> So put less in if your bottle leaks. Its not rocket science.

> >> Bloomin' ridiculous idea if the leak is at or near the bottom of the
> >> expansion bottle.

> > A trivial and entirely effective idea.

> OK, so it's mid-engined and more fussy than most.

Its a 206, not a £100,000 sports car

> But the pressure is
> needed to keep the bubbles under control,

no, seriously.

> and you really don't want lost
> bubbles in that much pipe.
> Andy

what are lost bubbles?


NT

[Vir Campestris]

On 30/09/2014 01:45, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 29, 2014 8:19:03 PM UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> On 28/09/2014 22:41, meow...@care2.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 28, 2014 9:47:44 PM UTC+1, polygonum wrote:
>>>> On 28/09/2014 21:29, meow...@care2.com wrote:
>
>>>>> So put less in if your bottle leaks. Its not rocket science.
>
>>>> Bloomin' ridiculous idea if the leak is at or near the bottom of the
>>>> expansion bottle.
>
>>> A trivial and entirely effective idea.
>
>> OK, so it's mid-engined and more fussy than most.
>
> Its a 206, not a £100,000 sports car
>

You lost a digit. I paid 12k - 15 years ago. It's only an MR2!

>> But the pressure is
>> needed to keep the bubbles under control,
>
> no, seriously.
>
>> and you really don't want lost
>> bubbles in that much pipe.
>> Andy
>
> what are lost bubbles?
>

Bubbles which have formed somewhere in the system, not where they can
escape. The cooling system on an MR2 is on one of two states - no
problem at all, or bloody awful. So far mine has always been the former,
despite taking a hare into the radiator at ... well, I was doing 60, and
it was on full chat sideways. So probably 80-ish.

Andy

[Dean Punchard]

If it's just a broken expansion bottle, then you can source a new or 2nd hand one and swap it over, it's really not hard.

If it's the head gasket, read a Haynes manual, and that'll give you a good idea of the work involved. For me, removing the head and changing the gasket would be easy, you'll probably find the timing belt the trickiest part.
Also if you change the gasket, you'll probably want to change the timing belt, tensioners, and water pump, unless they have been done very recently.

If it's something you don't want to tackle your self, just give a few garages a call for a rough price, or join a 206 forum, and see if anyone local might be interested in doing it one weekend?

Finally, what are you topping the car up with at the moment? You really need to top up with coolant, not just water.

Dean

[sm_jamieson]

Oh I know, but I'd be spending a fortune on coolant (I know its maybe not *just* antifreeze). So I'm just topping up with water (I know it maybe should really be distilled water).
That's the urgency though. It needs to have a proper antifreeze concentration before the winter !
Simon.

[Dean Punchard]

It's not just antifreeze, it also helps keep temp down when hot, and also contains chemicals to avoid corrosion and helps keep the internals healthy.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <517c9c9d-ceaf-4562...@googlegroups.com>,

Dean Punchard <deanpu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's not just antifreeze, it also helps keep temp down when hot, and
> also contains chemicals to avoid corrosion and helps keep the internals
> healthy.

I'd be surprised if it makes a measurable difference to the hot
temperature. But the anti-corrosion properties are very important.

--
*Most people have more than the average number of legs*

[meow...@care2.com]

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 5:22:51 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <517c9c9d-ceaf-4562...@googlegroups.com>,

> Dean Punchard <deanpunchard> wrote:

> > It's not just antifreeze, it also helps keep temp down when hot, and
> > also contains chemicals to avoid corrosion and helps keep the internals
> > healthy.

> I'd be surprised if it makes a measurable difference to the hot
> temperature. But the anti-corrosion properties are very important.

Its weird what people buy into. Water with antifreeze is less effective as a coolant, not more. It doesnt matter. Lost bubbles are a nonissue. Distilled water is counterproductive, a tiny trace of scale helps seal things. It just needs water now, antifreeze before it freezes, and the corrosion inhibitor in antifreeze helps prolong radiator life, though is long even without it.


NT

[charles]

In article <f4dc2720-e670-41d7...@googlegroups.com>,

<meow...@care2.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 5:22:51 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article <517c9c9d-ceaf-4562...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Dean Punchard <deanpunchard> wrote:

> > > It's not just antifreeze, it also helps keep temp down when hot, and
> > > also contains chemicals to avoid corrosion and helps keep the
> > > internals healthy.

> > I'd be surprised if it makes a measurable difference to the hot
> > temperature. But the anti-corrosion properties are very important.

> Its weird what people buy into. Water with antifreeze is less effective
> as a coolant, not more. It doesnt matter. Lost bubbles are a nonissue.
> Distilled water is counterproductive, a tiny trace of scale helps seal
> things.

and too much scale blocks the radiator and the heater hoses. Been there.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[meow...@care2.com]

It does, but you need a whole lot of water changes for that to be a risk.


NT

[charles]

In article <bff3c8b4-61d7-4573...@googlegroups.com>,

It depends on how hard your tap water is.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <544feac3...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,

charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Its weird what people buy into. Water with antifreeze is less effective
> > as a coolant, not more. It doesnt matter. Lost bubbles are a nonissue.
> > Distilled water is counterproductive, a tiny trace of scale helps seal
> > things.

> and too much scale blocks the radiator and the heater hoses. Been there.

And you need to see what some of those rad sealers do. Saw one heater
piped (1/2") virtually blocked after K-Seal was used.

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it *

[Adam Aglionby]

On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 11:38:41 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <544feac3...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
>
> charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Its weird what people buy into. Water with antifreeze is less effective
>
> > > as a coolant, not more. It doesnt matter. Lost bubbles are a nonissue.
>
> > > Distilled water is counterproductive, a tiny trace of scale helps seal
>
> > > things.
>
>
>
> > and too much scale blocks the radiator and the heater hoses. Been there.
>
>
>
> And you need to see what some of those rad sealers do. Saw one heater
>
> piped (1/2") virtually blocked after K-Seal was used.

Thought these things were aerobic, need exposure to air to cure, but not sure:

`Once the microfibres have sealed, and fixed, the leak a combination of exposure to an atmosphere, either the external atmosphere or the gases within the combustion chamber, together with the heat within the cooling system and engine causes the K-Seal formula to cure`

http://www.kseal.com/uk/how-does-k-seal-work/

Seen Wonderweld solve a full mayonnaise head gasket on a Rover long enough to sell it, one bottle good, two better...