Antex Pipemaster Pro - quick review

[Tim Watts]

Just tried this

http://www.antex.co.uk/soldering/plumbing/pipemaster-pro/

I have bad memories of pipe irons - but I'm pleased to say this one is the
dog's nads. Joint in about 20 seconds. No problems with lead free solder.

Yes - I do use a blowtorch too - but I have a load of joints near cables and
in the roof space and frankly, I'd have a lot of trouble with a flame making
sure I did not damage something!

It's not cheap but with the number of joints I'm planning to do, it was
worth it :)

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

[Dave Liquorice]

On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 19:26:23 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

> I have bad memories of pipe irons - but I'm pleased to say this one is
> the dog's nads. Joint in about 20 seconds.

How long does it take to warm up?

> Yes - I do use a blowtorch too - but I have a load of joints near cables
> and in the roof space and frankly, I'd have a lot of trouble with a
> flame making sure I did not damage something!

You don't have a heat mat?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/rothenberger-plumber-s-soldering-mat/54910

Donno if that is the same as mine but what I have is a blooming
amazing thing. Sling it behind a pipe, covering painted woodwork,
make joint, the finer bits of the mat flame side glowing red, remove
mat, not sign of heat damage to paint work.

Think I've even played with it, hottest part of blowlamp flame played
on an small area it glowing red, take away flame reverse side is hot
but not "ouch" hot...

BTBH in a confined sapce like a loft a blowlamp can be a liabilty.
It's not so much when making a joint but when you move the flame away
as you complete the joint or put it down afterwards. The latter
particularly if it doesn't have piezo ignition so there is a
temptation to turn it down but leave it lit.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Tim Watts]

On Friday 26 July 2013 21:16 Dave Liquorice wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 19:26:23 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:
>
>> I have bad memories of pipe irons - but I'm pleased to say this one is
>> the dog's nads. Joint in about 20 seconds.
>
> How long does it take to warm up?

About 4 mins. About the same time as final joint prep (I tend to use heat
activate flux so make up a fair few joints and bomb through them).

>
>> Yes - I do use a blowtorch too - but I have a load of joints near cables
>> and in the roof space and frankly, I'd have a lot of trouble with a
>> flame making sure I did not damage something!
>
> You don't have a heat mat?
>

I do - you would not want a cable behind it - you can still scorch things
through it (I did just now on a bit I did use a torch on).

> http://www.screwfix.com/p/rothenberger-plumber-s-soldering-mat/54910
>
> Donno if that is the same as mine but what I have is a blooming
> amazing thing. Sling it behind a pipe, covering painted woodwork,
> make joint, the finer bits of the mat flame side glowing red, remove
> mat, not sign of heat damage to paint work.

OK - mine does not do that - perhaps that's why I went off the idea...

> Think I've even played with it, hottest part of blowlamp flame played
> on an small area it glowing red, take away flame reverse side is hot
> but not "ouch" hot...
>
> BTBH in a confined sapce like a loft a blowlamp can be a liabilty.
> It's not so much when making a joint but when you move the flame away
> as you complete the joint or put it down afterwards. The latter
> particularly if it doesn't have piezo ignition so there is a
> temptation to turn it down but leave it lit.

That too. Most of my plumbing is in attic spaces with bits of wood, dust and
cables everywhere...

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <fjraca-...@squidward.local.dionic.net>,

Tim Watts <tw+u...@dionic.net> wrote:
> Just tried this

> http://www.antex.co.uk/soldering/plumbing/pipemaster-pro/

> I have bad memories of pipe irons - but I'm pleased to say this one is
> the dog's nads. Joint in about 20 seconds. No problems with lead free
> solder.

Wonder what they've changed? I had one some 25 years ago and it was
rubbish.

--
*"I am " is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Tim Watts]

On Friday 26 July 2013 19:49 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> In article <fjraca-...@squidward.local.dionic.net>,
> Tim Watts <tw+u...@dionic.net> wrote:
>> Just tried this
>
>> http://www.antex.co.uk/soldering/plumbing/pipemaster-pro/
>
>> I have bad memories of pipe irons - but I'm pleased to say this one is
>> the dog's nads. Joint in about 20 seconds. No problems with lead free
>> solder.
>
>
> Wonder what they've changed? I had one some 25 years ago and it was
> rubbish.
>

I'm guessing the "Pro" might be a factor. The one I tried was of 20 year old
vintage and yellow. It took forever. This one is black and 220W.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <jqbbca-...@squidward.local.dionic.net>,

Tim Watts <tw+u...@dionic.net> wrote:
> > Wonder what they've changed? I had one some 25 years ago and it was
> > rubbish.
> >

> I'm guessing the "Pro" might be a factor. The one I tried was of 20 year
> old vintage and yellow. It took forever. This one is black and 220W.

If it does work reasonably quickly could be a useful tool. Must admit to
thinking 220w wouldn't be enough.

--
*Some people are alive only because it's illegal to kill them *

[Roger Mills]

On 26/07/2013 19:26, Tim Watts wrote:
> Just tried this
>
> http://www.antex.co.uk/soldering/plumbing/pipemaster-pro/
>
> I have bad memories of pipe irons - but I'm pleased to say this one is the
> dog's nads. Joint in about 20 seconds. No problems with lead free solder.
>
> Yes - I do use a blowtorch too - but I have a load of joints near cables and
> in the roof space and frankly, I'd have a lot of trouble with a flame making
> sure I did not damage something!
>
> It's not cheap but with the number of joints I'm planning to do, it was
> worth it :)
>

You could buy quite a few copper push-fit fittings for the price!
They're what I use in confined spaces.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

[dennis@home]

On 27/07/2013 12:37, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 26/07/2013 19:26, Tim Watts wrote:
>> Just tried this
>>
>> http://www.antex.co.uk/soldering/plumbing/pipemaster-pro/
>>
>> I have bad memories of pipe irons - but I'm pleased to say this one is
>> the
>> dog's nads. Joint in about 20 seconds. No problems with lead free solder.
>>
>> Yes - I do use a blowtorch too - but I have a load of joints near
>> cables and
>> in the roof space and frankly, I'd have a lot of trouble with a flame
>> making
>> sure I did not damage something!
>>
>> It's not cheap but with the number of joints I'm planning to do, it was
>> worth it :)
>>
>
> You could buy quite a few copper push-fit fittings for the price!
> They're what I use in confined spaces.

Run plastic pipe and don't put any fittings in confined spaces.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <51f3b347$0$1702$c3e8da3$5d8f...@news.astraweb.com>,

dennis@home <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
> Run plastic pipe and don't put any fittings in confined spaces.

Any plumbing you've done must look a right mess if you follow that
principle.

--
*In some places, C:\ is the root of all directories *

[Onetap]

On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:47:19 PM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

> Run plastic pipe and don't put any fittings in confined spaces.

Inadvisable in a loft, IMHO, rodents will gnaw the plastic pipe.

The T&Cs on plumbers' liability insurance often prohibits any work with naked flames in lofts or other confined spaces. The copper press-fit devices are reported to be good, but still rely on an 'O' ring of dubious longevity.
I'd prefer a soldered joint in most cases.

[Steve Firth]

In these circumstances I'm now using press-fit fittings. Fast, cold fix and
cheaper than copper/brass fittings. The manual press fitting tool costs
less than a decent blow torch or the Antex tool. The battery operated press
fitting tools are amusingly expensive.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
<1993580665396626924.346167%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
> In these circumstances I'm now using press-fit fittings. Fast, cold fix
> and cheaper than copper/brass fittings. The manual press fitting tool
> costs less than a decent blow torch or the Antex tool. The battery
> operated press fitting tools are amusingly expensive.

Surely most will already have a decent blowlamp? And end feed capillary
fittings are cheap. Quite a consideration on a big job. They're also tried
and tested.

--
*A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

[Steve Firth]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <1993580665396626924.346167%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>> In these circumstances I'm now using press-fit fittings. Fast, cold fix
>> and cheaper than copper/brass fittings. The manual press fitting tool
>> costs less than a decent blow torch or the Antex tool. The battery
>> operated press fitting tools are amusingly expensive.
>
> Surely most will already have a decent blowlamp? And end feed capillary
> fittings are cheap. Quite a consideration on a big job. They're also tried
> and tested.

Indeed but we were talking about installing pipes where a blow torch would
be a fire hazard. Also copper isn't getting any cheaper.

Press fit is also tried and tested BTW.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Onetap]

On Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:49:16 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:

> Indeed but we were talking about installing pipes where a blow torch would
>
> be a fire hazard.

Not just a fire hazard, but unuseable due to the insurance restrictions.

If a plumber starts a loft fire, his insurance policy probably won't cover him and
the lawyers would want take any assets he may have.

[dennis@home]

On 27/07/2013 14:03, Onetap wrote:
> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:47:19 PM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
>
>> Run plastic pipe and don't put any fittings in confined spaces.
>
> Inadvisable in a loft, IMHO, rodents will gnaw the plastic pipe.

Rodents can gnaw copper pipe too.

>
> The T&Cs on plumbers' liability insurance often prohibits any work
> with naked flames in lofts or other confined spaces. The copper
> press-fit devices are reported to be good, but still rely on an 'O'
> ring of dubious longevity.

I have thirty year old plastic plumbing and its fine.
I have known copper tube to fail at about 20 years.

> I'd prefer a soldered joint in most
> cases.
>

I've just had dozens done in the loft.

And a coil or two of plastic.

The solar thermal is all mechanical joints, no solder.

[Onetap]

On Saturday, July 27, 2013 6:56:32 PM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
> On 27/07/2013 14:03, Onetap wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:47:19 PM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> Run plastic pipe and don't put any fittings in confined spaces.
>
> >
>
> > Inadvisable in a loft, IMHO, rodents will gnaw the plastic pipe.
>
>
>
> Rodents can gnaw copper pipe too.

Only those with tungsten carbide dentures; much less likely that plastic pipe or PVC cable insulation.

[Tim Watts]

On Saturday 27 July 2013 09:55 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> In article <jqbbca-...@squidward.local.dionic.net>,
> Tim Watts <tw+u...@dionic.net> wrote:
>> > Wonder what they've changed? I had one some 25 years ago and it was
>> > rubbish.
>> >
>
>> I'm guessing the "Pro" might be a factor. The one I tried was of 20 year
>> old vintage and yellow. It took forever. This one is black and 220W.
>
> If it does work reasonably quickly could be a useful tool. Must admit to
> thinking 220w wouldn't be enough.
>

The last joint I did last night was in dim light under the floor. The heads
were glowing dull red - I was impressed.

Well, I was until on eof the heads tried to fall off. One negative there...

I have bent the shim - seems tighter now.

[Tim Watts]

On Saturday 27 July 2013 12:37 Roger Mills wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> On 26/07/2013 19:26, Tim Watts wrote:
>> Just tried this
>>
>> http://www.antex.co.uk/soldering/plumbing/pipemaster-pro/
>>
>> I have bad memories of pipe irons - but I'm pleased to say this one is
>> the dog's nads. Joint in about 20 seconds. No problems with lead free
>> solder.
>>
>> Yes - I do use a blowtorch too - but I have a load of joints near cables
>> and in the roof space and frankly, I'd have a lot of trouble with a flame
>> making sure I did not damage something!
>>
>> It's not cheap but with the number of joints I'm planning to do, it was
>> worth it :)
>>
>
> You could buy quite a few copper push-fit fittings for the price!
> They're what I use in confined spaces.

Yep. But I prefer the solidity of solder :)

[Tim Watts]

No thanks.

Plastic is great for certain jobs, but I really have not basis for beliveing
it will be reliable in the long term (decades) - especially if a mouse gets
a nibble.

[Tim Watts]

The copper CuproFit or the brass Push Fit Conex? (or another)?

The brass ones look pretty solid but need an expensive tool to demount.

[Tim Watts]

and a liability to cables.

The fire hazard I can cope with as I can always have an extinguisher. But it
would be *very* easy to damage one of my mains cables as they and the pipes
go roughly down the same general route and cross each other often.

> Press fit is also tried and tested BTW.
>
--

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 20:42:11 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

>> In these circumstances I'm now using press-fit fittings. Fast,
cold fix
>> and cheaper than copper/brass fittings. The manual press fitting
tool
>> costs less than a decent blow torch or the Antex tool. The battery
>> operated press fitting tools are amusingly expensive.
>
> The copper CuproFit or the brass Push Fit Conex? (or another)?

I wondered if anybody else would spot the use of press-fit rather
than push-fit. B-)

It's another, some form of crimp:

http://pegleryorkshire.co.uk/EN/Products/PressFit

Remarkably useless website, doesn't explain how the systems works at
all. Plenty of repetitive sales puff though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Steve Firth]

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
[snip]

> Remarkably useless website, doesn't explain how the systems works at
> all. Plenty of repetitive sales puff though.

This saves me the problem of explaining it, it's a PDF:

http://www.uk-plumbing.com/brochure/rifeng/RifengPipe.pdf

Press fit is * the* standard way of plumbing across Europe. It's just the
UK that is backwards.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Steve Firth]

Tim Watts <tw+u...@dionic.net> wrote:
> On Saturday 27 July 2013 15:07 Steve Firth wrote in uk.d-i-y:

[snip]

>> In these circumstances I'm now using press-fit fittings. Fast, cold fix
>> and cheaper than copper/brass fittings. The manual press fitting tool
>> costs less than a decent blow torch or the Antex tool. The battery
>> operated press fitting tools are amusingly expensive.
>>
>
> The copper CuproFit or the brass Push Fit Conex? (or another)?

Another. I'm using Rifeng tube and fittings that are compatible with Wavin
Tigris:

http://www.redlinepex.com/rifeng_s/84.htm

http://overseas.wavin.com/master/master.jsp?products=products&middleTemplateName=oc_middle_system_detail_I&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374305497592&c=products&p=/Assortments/017/017/External_017_Products/Drinking_Water_Supply/Hot_Cold_Systems/WavinMP/WavinTigrisK1

> The brass ones look pretty solid but need an expensive tool to demount.

These fittings are crimped onto the tube using a hand, hydraulic or
electrically operated press. They can't be demounted once fixed.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[dennis@home]

On 27/07/2013 23:22, Steve Firth wrote:


>
> These fittings are crimped onto the tube using a hand, hydraulic or
> electrically operated press. They can't be demounted once fixed.
>

I hope they use good O rings.
I can't help think that push fit is easier and likely to be just as good.
Plastic is also rated at a higher working temp and pressure.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 22:22:28 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth wrote:

>> Remarkably useless website, doesn't explain how the systems works
at
>> all. Plenty of repetitive sales puff though.
>
> This saves me the problem of explaining it, it's a PDF:
>
> http://www.uk-plumbing.com/brochure/rifeng/RifengPipe.pdf

That's a plastic pipe based system. The Yorkshire Pegler XPress is
copper pipe based. No inserts and crimp sleeves, just slide fiting
onto tube and crimp.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Tim Watts]

On Saturday 27 July 2013 21:37 Dave Liquorice wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 20:42:11 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:
>
>>> In these circumstances I'm now using press-fit fittings. Fast,
> cold fix
>>> and cheaper than copper/brass fittings. The manual press fitting
> tool
>>> costs less than a decent blow torch or the Antex tool. The battery
>>> operated press fitting tools are amusingly expensive.
>>
>> The copper CuproFit or the brass Push Fit Conex? (or another)?
>
> I wondered if anybody else would spot the use of press-fit rather
> than push-fit. B-)
>

Oh bollocks - stupid for me as I'd been reading Conex's web page earlier and
had seen press fit! Brain auto parse error...

> It's another, some form of crimp:
>
> http://pegleryorkshire.co.uk/EN/Products/PressFit
>
> Remarkably useless website, doesn't explain how the systems works at
> all. Plenty of repetitive sales puff though.
>
--

[Rick Hughes]

On 27/07/2013 14:03, Onetap wrote:

That would mean no cable should be put in loft, as they are PVC sheathed ?

[Rick Hughes]

On 27/07/2013 16:49, Steve Firth wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
Also copper isn't getting any cheaper.

Yes noticed that .... perhaps we should invade and claim some mineral
rich country in Africa and take over its copper, that is how it used to work

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
<2006357510396655420.457683%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Just to be clear - you think everything that is the standard across Europe
is better than anything which differs from that in the UK?

Or are you just being selective to suit your argument?

I know from my own experience just how long lasting properly made solder
fittings are. Until push fit have been around for that sort of time I'll
reserves judgment. Oh - and then there's the small matter of price.

An end feed 15mm coupler costs just over 15p if you buy 25 from
Toolstation. Care to give the equivalent cost for push fit?

--
*Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 23:56:44 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

>> These fittings are crimped onto the tube using a hand, hydraulic
or
>> electrically operated press. They can't be demounted once fixed.
>
> I hope they use good O rings.

The plastic crimp system that Mr Firth pointed to looks to use three.

> I can't help think that push fit is easier and likely to be just as
> good.

I doubt it, a similar system is used to put the ends on hydralic
hoses working at considerably higher pressures than an domestic water
system will encounter.

> Plastic is also rated at a higher working temp and pressure.

Higher than what? When I've looked at the specs for plastic it's a
bit borderline for use on a conventional (70 ish C flow) CH system
with more than two floors. The pressure derates rather quickly with
temperature and the recomended distance between supports decreases as
well.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Onetap]

On Sunday, July 28, 2013 9:11:44 AM UTC+1, Rick Hughes wrote:
> On 27/07/2013 14:03, Onetap wrote:

> That would mean no cable should be put in loft, as they are PVC sheathed ?

Unlike tubes, there's no easily available alternative; maybe steel conduit.

Rodents are a known, small risk with plastic pipe systems (and PVC insulated cables).
There are numerous advantages and disadvantages; plastic has no scrap value and is less likely to be nicked.
Pay your money and make your choice.
A plumber may recommend plastic, since it makes his job easier, but may neglect to mention the disadvantages

[dennis@home]

IIRC the stuff I used was 10 bar at 90c, the stuff Steve said was 10
barr at 60C.

I'm not going to start crimping stuff now, I don't do enough of it.

[John Rumm]

On 27/07/2013 20:43, Tim Watts wrote:
> On Saturday 27 July 2013 16:49 Steve Firth wrote in uk.d-i-y:
>
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <1993580665396626924.346167%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-
> september.org>,
>>> Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In these circumstances I'm now using press-fit fittings. Fast, cold fix
>>>> and cheaper than copper/brass fittings. The manual press fitting tool
>>>> costs less than a decent blow torch or the Antex tool. The battery
>>>> operated press fitting tools are amusingly expensive.
>>>
>>> Surely most will already have a decent blowlamp? And end feed capillary
>>> fittings are cheap. Quite a consideration on a big job. They're also
>>> tried and tested.
>>
>> Indeed but we were talking about installing pipes where a blow torch would
>> be a fire hazard. Also copper isn't getting any cheaper.
>
> and a liability to cables.
>
> The fire hazard I can cope with as I can always have an extinguisher. But it
> would be *very* easy to damage one of my mains cables as they and the pipes
> go roughly down the same general route and cross each other often.

Not only that, but there are sometimes where access is hard enough that
you don't want to be playing with a blowtorch anyway... rather like my
episode a couple of months back:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=The_tale_of_the_rubbing_pipe


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <7abb2eff-5d5a-462e...@googlegroups.com>,

Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:
> A plumber may recommend plastic, since it makes his job easier, but may
> neglect to mention the disadvantages

Quite. Rather the same as asking his advice on which boiler to buy. Or
where it should be sited.

--
*Time is fun when you're having flies... Kermit

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 14:40:57 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

>> Higher than what? When I've looked at the specs for plastic it's a
>> bit borderline for use on a conventional (70 ish C flow) CH system
>> with more than two floors. The pressure derates rather quickly
with
>> temperature and the recomended distance between supports decreases
as
>> well.
>
> IIRC the stuff I used was 10 bar at 90c, the stuff Steve said was 10
> barr at 60C.

Hum Speedfit PEX barrier pipe in central heating: Normal working temp
82 C, Max working temp 105 C, short term malfunction at 114 C, max
working pressure 3 bar.

Hep2o is better max 6 bar at 80 C.

Poly pipe has a similar spec to Speedfit that is around 3 bar at 80

C.

> I'm not going to start crimping stuff now, I don't do enough of it.

Niether am I, end fed or compression here...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Onetap]

On Sunday, July 28, 2013 9:13:41 AM UTC+1, Rick Hughes wrote:

> Yes noticed that .... perhaps we should invade and claim some mineral
>
> rich country in Africa and take over its copper, that is how it used to work

Or rebuild their railways for (over) payment in minerals. That how the Chinese work it.
Relevant palms greased, Joe Average gets sweet FA from the deals.

[polygonum]

On 28/07/2013 12:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> An end feed 15mm coupler costs just over 15p if you buy 25 from
> Toolstation. Care to give the equivalent cost for push fit?

Would it not be more relevant to ask the cost for press fit?

And whether or not you think so, I would like to have some idea of how
copper end feed, pre-soldered, plastic, copper push fit, copper press
fit, etc. compare.

Obviously the tools for press fit represent a significant cost. And it
appears to available in a wider range of diameters. So I suspect the
fittings might be less expensive than, say, push fit.

--
Rod

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:11:54 +0100, polygonum wrote:

> And whether or not you think so, I would like to have some idea of how
> copper end feed, pre-soldered, plastic, copper push fit, copper press
> fit, etc. compare.

BES Sep 12 catalogue that just happens to be next to me:

15 mm coupler:
UK Compression £1.19
DZR Compression £1.82
Imported Comp. £0.95
End fed £0.14
Solder ring £0.24
Push Fit:
Cuprofit 2 £1.66
Tectite Sprint £1.08
Conex £2.09
Conex Press Fit £1.43
Speedfit £1.08
HEP2O £1.87
Polyfit £1.04

15 mm elbow
UK Compression £1.55
DZR Compression £1.98
Imported Comp. £1.13
End fed £0.24
Solder ring £0.53
Push fit:
Cuprofit 2 £1.89
Tectite Sprint £1.33
Conex £2.46
Conex Press Fit £1.40
Speedfit £1.29
HEP2O £2.30
Polyfit £1.24

Note that is prices from Sep 2012 for one off and probably plus VAT

[polygonum]

Why thank you sir.

That is a big range of prices. About 10:1.

--
Rod

[Steve Firth]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article
> <2006357510396655420.457683%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>> "Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
>> [snip]
>
>>> Remarkably useless website, doesn't explain how the systems works at
>>> all. Plenty of repetitive sales puff though.
>
>> This saves me the problem of explaining it, it's a PDF:
>
>> http://www.uk-plumbing.com/brochure/rifeng/RifengPipe.pdf
>
>> Press fit is * the* standard way of plumbing across Europe. It's just the
>> UK that is backwards.
>
> Just to be clear - you think everything that is the standard across Europe
> is better than anything which differs from that in the UK?

Just to be clear, you think that honey is a secretion from the nasal mucosa
of sloths?

> Or are you just being selective to suit your argument?

Or are you being a reseller of ironing boards made specifically for gnomes?

> I know from my own experience just how long lasting properly made solder
> fittings are. Until push fit have been around for that sort of time I'll
> reserves judgment. Oh - and then there's the small matter of price.

Yes, like, whatever.

> An end feed 15mm coupler costs just over 15p if you buy 25 from
> Toolstation. Care to give the equivalent cost for push fit?

Care to compare the total cost?

Last time I checked 50m of 15mm copper tube was £150.

For 50m of 16mm PEX-AL-PEX it was £50.

Fittings seem to range from 50p to £1.00 depending in size, type and
material. You can buy a lot of fittings for £100.


Are you spoiling for yet another pointless argument BTW? If so I'm not
bloody interested.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <b5l8nq...@mid.individual.net>,

polygonum <rmoud...@vrod.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28/07/2013 12:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > An end feed 15mm coupler costs just over 15p if you buy 25 from
> > Toolstation. Care to give the equivalent cost for push fit?

> Would it not be more relevant to ask the cost for press fit?

Think that's what I meant. ;-)

> And whether or not you think so, I would like to have some idea of how
> copper end feed, pre-soldered, plastic, copper push fit, copper press
> fit, etc. compare.

For copper tube, end feed is the cheapest - and by quite some margin.
Never did see the point in Yorkshires - you're paying far more than the
cost of the solder.

> Obviously the tools for press fit represent a significant cost. And it
> appears to available in a wider range of diameters. So I suspect the
> fittings might be less expensive than, say, push fit.

--

*Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
<2126092083396738581.193437%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Press fit is * the* standard way of plumbing across Europe. It's just
> >> the UK that is backwards.
> >
> > Just to be clear - you think everything that is the standard across
> > Europe is better than anything which differs from that in the UK?

> Just to be clear, you think that honey is a secretion from the nasal
> mucosa of sloths?

Thought you'd have no sensible answer.

--
*I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it*

[John Rumm]

On 29/07/2013 00:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <b5l8nq...@mid.individual.net>,
> polygonum <rmoud...@vrod.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 28/07/2013 12:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>> An end feed 15mm coupler costs just over 15p if you buy 25 from
>>> Toolstation. Care to give the equivalent cost for push fit?
>
>> Would it not be more relevant to ask the cost for press fit?
>
> Think that's what I meant. ;-)
>
>> And whether or not you think so, I would like to have some idea of how
>> copper end feed, pre-soldered, plastic, copper push fit, copper press
>> fit, etc. compare.
>
> For copper tube, end feed is the cheapest - and by quite some margin.
> Never did see the point in Yorkshires - you're paying far more than the
> cost of the solder.

I use mostly end feed - but keep a few solder ring fittings handy, for
those jobs where you can only get one hand to it and at arms length
(e.g. reaching into a floor void etc). You can do a solder ring one
handed, but its far harder to do end feed that way.

Having said that, it really pays to keep them separate from your solder
ring 22 to 3/4" adaptor fittings... cos once you have one of those
jammed on a pipe under the floor at arms length, its a right bugger to
get off and use the right fitting. DAMHIK.

[Steve Firth]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article
> <2126092083396738581.193437%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Press fit is * the* standard way of plumbing across Europe. It's just
>>>> the UK that is backwards.
>>>
>>> Just to be clear - you think everything that is the standard across
>>> Europe is better than anything which differs from that in the UK?
>
>> Just to be clear, you think that honey is a secretion from the nasal
>> mucosa of sloths?
>
> Thought you'd have no sensible answer.

Try not begging the question and of course you snipped the sensible answer.
Why are you constantly spoiling for a fight?

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Tim Watts]

On Monday 29 July 2013 00:06 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> In article <b5l8nq...@mid.individual.net>,
> polygonum <rmoud...@vrod.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 28/07/2013 12:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> > An end feed 15mm coupler costs just over 15p if you buy 25 from
>> > Toolstation. Care to give the equivalent cost for push fit?
>
>> Would it not be more relevant to ask the cost for press fit?
>
> Think that's what I meant. ;-)
>
>> And whether or not you think so, I would like to have some idea of how
>> copper end feed, pre-soldered, plastic, copper push fit, copper press
>> fit, etc. compare.
>
> For copper tube, end feed is the cheapest - and by quite some margin.
> Never did see the point in Yorkshires - you're paying far more than the
> cost of the solder.
>

I like them for the simplicity and having one less hand needed (esp confined
spaces).

As the solder comes from inside, once it appears, you are pretty certain
that it's everywhere it's supposed to be.

OK - someone used to end feed will be fine, but a "weekend plumber" such as
myself has less confidence :-o

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
<1979541234396746893.323107%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article
> > <2126092083396738581.193437%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>> Press fit is * the* standard way of plumbing across Europe. It's
> >>>> just the UK that is backwards.
> >>>
> >>> Just to be clear - you think everything that is the standard across
> >>> Europe is better than anything which differs from that in the UK?
> >
> >> Just to be clear, you think that honey is a secretion from the nasal
> >> mucosa of sloths?
> >
> > Thought you'd have no sensible answer.

> Try not begging the question and of course you snipped the sensible
> answer. Why are you constantly spoiling for a fight?

That from one who thinks because something is common in the rest of
Europe, it must be best. It may well be nice and easy and cheap. Not the
same thing.

--
*I have never hated a man enough to give his diamonds back.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <2kdhca-...@squidward.local.dionic.net>,

Tim Watts <tw+u...@dionic.net> wrote:
> > For copper tube, end feed is the cheapest - and by quite some margin.
> > Never did see the point in Yorkshires - you're paying far more than the
> > cost of the solder.
> >

> I like them for the simplicity and having one less hand needed (esp
> confined spaces).

Never found that a problem.

> As the solder comes from inside, once it appears, you are pretty certain
> that it's everywhere it's supposed to be.

But can you? In a confined space you can't see all the way round it.

> OK - someone used to end feed will be fine, but a "weekend plumber" such
> as myself has less confidence :-o

Main thing is cleanliness and a decent flux. End feed will then be fine.

--
*I was married by a judge. I should have asked for a jury.

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 29, 2013 12:06:31 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> For copper tube, end feed is the cheapest - and by quite some margin.
>
> Never did see the point in Yorkshires - you're paying far more than the
>
> cost of the solder.

Solder ring fittings usually indicate someone who hasn't mastered soldering.
Proper plumbers don't use them, if they can avoid them.
They're occasionally useful in awkward spots.

They are usually specified for potable H&C water commercial jobs because the YP, or similar, marking was the only indication that lead free solder had been used.

I saw a "proper plumber" using them on a job. He was 'topping up' the molten solder with solder wire, from a yellow reel. Nothing is foolproof.

[Steve Firth]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <1979541234396746893.323107%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <2126092083396738581.193437%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Press fit is * the* standard way of plumbing across Europe. It's
>>>>>> just the UK that is backwards.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to be clear - you think everything that is the standard across
>>>>> Europe is better than anything which differs from that in the UK?
>>>
>>>> Just to be clear, you think that honey is a secretion from the nasal
>>>> mucosa of sloths?
>>>
>>> Thought you'd have no sensible answer.
>
>> Try not begging the question and of course you snipped the sensible
>> answer. Why are you constantly spoiling for a fight?
>
> That from one who thinks because something is common in the rest of
> Europe, it must be best. It may well be nice and easy and cheap. Not the
> same thing.

Perhaps you can reference a post in which I said that because it was used
in Europe it was "best"? I'd like to see that.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Tim Watts]

On Monday 29 July 2013 10:49 Onetap wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> On Monday, July 29, 2013 12:06:31 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>
>> For copper tube, end feed is the cheapest - and by quite some margin.
>>
>> Never did see the point in Yorkshires - you're paying far more than the
>>
>> cost of the solder.
>
> Solder ring fittings usually indicate someone who hasn't mastered
> soldering.

Nothing wrong with that (unless you are some sort of plumbing snob).

I'm usually successful at what I do because I work to my known limitations
and choose products accordingly.

The cost of solder ring fittings, push fit or whatever suits are all peanuts
compared to *paying someone else" to do the job - not to mention that amount
of aggro it would be to book a plumber every time I wanted to do an
incremental job.

> Proper plumbers don't use them, if they can avoid them.

Proper plumbers chop bloody great holes through structural timbers. I would
not hold them up as a bastion of anything.

> They're occasionally useful in awkward spots.
>
> They are usually specified for potable H&C water commercial jobs because
> the YP, or similar, marking was the only indication that lead free solder
> had been used.
>
> I saw a "proper plumber" using them on a job. He was 'topping up' the
> molten solder with solder wire, from a yellow reel. Nothing is
> foolproof.

Never had a solder ring fail. Not sure what he was doing - solder rings are
over loaded anyway - most of mine produce a significant blob outside as well
as filling the joint.

[charles]

In article <19e23249-c05a-4e65...@googlegroups.com>, Onetap

<one...@talk21.com> wrote:
> On Monday, July 29, 2013 12:06:31 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>
> > For copper tube, end feed is the cheapest - and by quite some margin.
> >
> > Never did see the point in Yorkshires - you're paying far more than the
> >
> > cost of the solder.

> Solder ring fittings usually indicate someone who hasn't mastered
> soldering. Proper plumbers don't use them, if they can avoid them.
> They're occasionally useful in awkward spots.

They can also produce a much neater result that comprsson fittings, but I
assume you were comparing them with end-feed. Even in a open space, it's
quite difficult not to geta solder "run" on the lower bit of pipe.

> They are usually specified for potable H&C water commercial jobs because
> the YP, or similar, marking was the only indication that lead free
> solder had been used.

> I saw a "proper plumber" using them on a job. He was 'topping up' the
> molten solder with solder wire, from a yellow reel. Nothing is
> foolproof.

perhaps he was re-using the fitting?

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 29, 2013 11:00:24 AM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:

> Proper plumbers chop bloody great holes through structural timbers. I would
>
> not hold them up as a bastion of anything.

There are good and bad in every trade. I'm not suggesting they're all wonderful.
End feed are cheapest and get used 95% of the time on heating. You can avoid solder runs with practise.

> > I saw a "proper plumber" using them on a job. He was 'topping up' the
>
> > molten solder with solder wire, from a yellow reel. Nothing is
>
> > foolproof.
>
>
>
> Never had a solder ring fail. Not sure what he was doing - solder rings are
>
> over loaded anyway - most of mine produce a significant blob outside as well
>
> as filling the joint.

He was an idiot. The fittings were new.
There's no sense in trying to re-use soldered fittings. End-feed fittings are cheap, compared with the time required.

[charles]

In article <2f1431c8-8e9b-449b...@googlegroups.com>, Onetap

but if you've got to drive 8 miles to get one and then another 8 miles
back, re-using might be more economical. Certainly quicker.

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 29, 2013 3:21:29 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:

> but if you've got to drive 8 miles to get one and then another 8 miles
>
> back, re-using might be more economical. Certainly quicker.

A 'plumber' wouldn't/shouldn't need to, they buy them (well, the usual sizes) by the 100s.
If you're DIYing, you can do as you please.

You'd distort a soldered fitting in trying to dismantle it.
I've never seen solder fittings re-used.

[Tim Watts]

I would be surprised if you could get one one after it's used. They are a
tight fit before they get a coating of solder - unless you put them on hot.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 16:04:45 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

> I would be surprised if you could get one one after it's used. They are
> a tight fit before they get a coating of solder - unless you put them on
> hot.

It can be done, I've done it (50 mile round trip to nearest plumbers
merchant or DIY shed(*)). Once you have the fitting off, flux it
well, get it well hot, add more solder, then knock it out by knocking
the holding pliers firmly against something with the open end of the
fitting in line with direction of travel. Most of the solder will
come out. With a 22 mm fitting a slighly damp cloth can be used to
wipe the rest out, 15 mm are too small to get a finger safely in...
You may still have to use some abrasive paper to remove the last few
thou and/or the same on the recipient pipe to get a fit.

(*) We now have a hardware store in the town that carry the very
common plumbing bits, only a 5 mile round trip. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

[dennis@home]

On 29/07/2013 10:49, Onetap wrote:
> On Monday, July 29, 2013 12:06:31 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>
>> For copper tube, end feed is the cheapest - and by quite some margin.
>>
>> Never did see the point in Yorkshires - you're paying far more than the
>>
>> cost of the solder.
>
> Solder ring fittings usually indicate someone who hasn't mastered soldering.

Or someone who likes neat soldering.
You can easily get solder drips and stuff with end feed while its very
difficult to do that with solder ring.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <19e23249-c05a-4e65...@googlegroups.com>,
Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:

> I saw a "proper plumber" using them on a job. He was 'topping up' the
> molten solder with solder wire, from a yellow reel. Nothing is
> foolproof.

Yup - I've seen plumbers do this. Not a good idea, as too much solder can
build up inside the joint and restrict the flow.

--
*Bigamy is having one wife too many - monogamy is the same

[charles]

In article <09ebfaee-c08e-4c57...@googlegroups.com>, Onetap

you've obviously not had to do something on a Sunday - when everything is
shut. With care the fittings are fine.

[John Rumm]

On 29/07/2013 10:49, Onetap wrote:

> On Monday, July 29, 2013 12:06:31 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
> wrote:
>
>> For copper tube, end feed is the cheapest - and by quite some
>> margin.
>>
>> Never did see the point in Yorkshires - you're paying far more than
>> the
>>
>> cost of the solder.
>
> Solder ring fittings usually indicate someone who hasn't mastered
> soldering.

I was thinking of a polite repost to that, but the word I keep coming
back to is "bollocks".

> Proper plumbers don't use them, if they can avoid them.
> They're occasionally useful in awkward spots.

Plumbers are usually cost sensitive, so will opt for end feed as its
cheaper, however I have not many any that refuse to use soldering in
situations where it makes the job quicker or easier.

> They are usually specified for potable H&C water commercial jobs
> because the YP, or similar, marking was the only indication that lead
> free solder had been used.
>
> I saw a "proper plumber" using them on a job. He was 'topping up' the
> molten solder with solder wire, from a yellow reel. Nothing is
> foolproof.

Not all are created equal. Lets face it, it they were all highly skilled
experts, they would be on usenet talking about it instead of doing it.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
<1337273993396784617.678381%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org>,

Crikey. That's one of your best wriggles for ages. You should stand for
parliament.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity -- I'm a carrier

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <o2rhca-...@squidward.local.dionic.net>,

Tim Watts <tw+u...@dionic.net> wrote:
> The cost of solder ring fittings, push fit or whatever suits are all
> peanuts compared to *paying someone else" to do the job - not to
> mention that amount of aggro it would be to book a plumber every time I
> wanted to do an incremental job.

Solder ring are much more expensive than end feed - and if you can solder
Yorkshires ok, end feed shouldn't be a problem.

--
*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <09ebfaee-c08e-4c57...@googlegroups.com>,
Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:

> You'd distort a soldered fitting in trying to dismantle it.
> I've never seen solder fittings re-used.

Perfectly possible with enough heat. Not something you'd try and do in a
confined space, though.

Anything which is soldered together can be unsoldered. And the copper
ain't going to get damaged - unless you do so by trying to separate it
before the solder is melted.

--
*Verbs HAS to agree with their subjects *

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <51f6a7cf$0$59591$c3e8da3$66d3...@news.astraweb.com>,

dennis@home <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
> Or someone who likes neat soldering.
> You can easily get solder drips and stuff with end feed while its very
> difficult to do that with solder ring.

Never thought of wiping any excess off? Although with a bit of practice,
there shouldn't be any excess.

--
*It ain't the size, it's... er... no, it IS ..the size.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 18:35:11 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

>> Solder ring fittings usually indicate someone who hasn't mastered
>> soldering.
>
> Or someone who likes neat soldering.

Or neatness, I don't like the buldge on solder ring fittings.

> You can easily get solder drips and stuff with end feed while its very
> difficult to do that with solder ring.

Meh, that's what your bit of "moleskin" is for. To wipe the joints
like a real plumber. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 29, 2013 6:35:11 PM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
>
>
> > Solder ring fittings usually indicate someone who hasn't mastered soldering.
>
>
>
> Or someone who likes neat soldering.
>
> You can easily get solder drips and stuff with end feed while its very
>
> difficult to do that with solder ring.

Someone who has mastered soldering = someone who can solder end feed fittings neatly, without leaving solder runs down the pipe.
Lots of practice required.

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 29, 2013 3:47:15 PM UTC+1, charles wrote:

> you've obviously not had to do something on a Sunday - when everything is
>
> shut. With care the fittings are fine.

Not a problem I've encountered.
Then again, I happen to have several hundred end-feed fittings in the shed. ;-)

[RJH]

On 28/07/2013 13:43, Onetap wrote:
> On Sunday, July 28, 2013 9:11:44 AM UTC+1, Rick Hughes wrote:
>> On 27/07/2013 14:03, Onetap wrote:
>
>> That would mean no cable should be put in loft, as they are PVC sheathed ?
>
> Unlike tubes, there's no easily available alternative; maybe steel conduit.
>
> Rodents are a known, small risk with plastic pipe systems (and PVC insulated cables).
> There are numerous advantages and disadvantages; plastic has no scrap value and is less likely to be nicked.
> Pay your money and make your choice.
> A plumber may recommend plastic, since it makes his job easier, but may neglect to mention the disadvantages
>

What are the main disadvantages of plastic, apart from materials cost?

--
Cheers, Rob

[Tim Watts]

Bulky, not mouse proof and o-ring seals are less proven than soldered
fittings.

However, to be fair, even copper has had it's problems with poor quality
batches pinholing.

Though, I prefer pinholing as a failure mode vs sudden gush. I also avoid
flexi tails where possible.

If I did not want to solder or use compression, I would use cuprofit with
copper. That just leaves the o-ring.

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 29, 2013 7:47:02 PM UTC+1, RJH wrote:

> What are the main disadvantages of plastic, apart from materials cost?
>

> Cheers, Rob

Thermal expansion, sags all over the place when it's hot.
Bulky fittings look unsightly.
It's not really suitable for installation anywhere visible.
Mice.
You can scratch it, dragging it through holes in joists and then find the fittings leak. You can't drag (half-hard) copper through holes in joists.
Oxygen permeable; the barrier layer is usually a surface coating and can get rubbed off.
No scrap value, not recyclable.

[dennis@home]

On 29/07/2013 21:10, Onetap wrote:
> On Monday, July 29, 2013 7:47:02 PM UTC+1, RJH wrote:
>
>> What are the main disadvantages of plastic, apart from materials
>> cost?
>>
>
>> Cheers, Rob
>
> Thermal expansion, sags all over the place when it's hot.

Copper sags if you don't clip it properly.

> Bulky fittings look unsightly.

The fittings are the same as copper except for solder, you can use
cuprofit and compression if you want.

> It's not really suitable for installation anywhere visible. Mice. You
> can scratch it, dragging it through holes in joists and then find the
> fittings leak.

Compression fittings on copper leak if you are clumsy enough to scratch
the pipe.

> You can't drag (half-hard) copper through holes in
> joists.

You can if the end is accessible and you line up the holes well enough.

> Oxygen permeable; the barrier layer is usually a surface
> coating and can get rubbed off.

Its a three layer extrusion on all the plastic barrier pipes I have seen.

> No scrap value, not recyclable.
>
>

You could recycle it, there doesn't appear to be anyone doing so.
There isn't much of it scrap ATM, maybe in 30 years there will be.
I have reused it when doing plumbing changes.

[Onetap]

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:05:15 AM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

> > Thermal expansion, sags all over the place when it's hot.
>
>
>
> Copper sags if you don't clip it properly.

Plastic sags when hot however it is clipped.
Look up the coefficients of thermal expansion for copper tube and plastic tube.

I can only recall one copper tube that noticeably sagged. It was a very long external run, carrying condensate.

> > Bulky fittings look unsightly.
>
> The fittings are the same as copper except for solder, you can use
> cuprofit and compression if you want.

Bulkier than endfeed.

> > It's not really suitable for installation anywhere visible. Mice. You
>
> > can scratch it, dragging it through holes in joists and then find the
>
> > fittings leak.
>
>
>
> Compression fittings on copper leak if you are clumsy enough to scratch
>
> the pipe.

Not like plastic. And scratched copper seals if soldered.

>
> > You can't drag (half-hard) copper through holes in
>
> > joists.
>

> You can if the end is accessible and you line up the holes well enough.

Of course, why didn't I think of that!
You just need to drill a FOGB hole through the outside wall to feed lengths of tube in (seen that done)!
Or demolish your neighbour's house and drill a FOGB hole.

>
> > Oxygen permeable; the barrier layer is usually a surface
>
> > coating and can get rubbed off.
>
>
>
> Its a three layer extrusion on all the plastic barrier pipes I have seen.

Pex-Al-Pex. Most plastic tube isn't that type.
Standard barrier PEX tube is the same as non-barrier tube, except for the outer coating. Which can be rubbed off.

> You could recycle it, there doesn't appear to be anyone doing so.

As stated, non recyclable (bad). No scrap value (good, if you want to minimize the chances of theft).

You're just trying to pick holes Dennis to start an argument; you just come across as a silly twat.

Plastic is also much more resistant to freezing damage (but can split).

[dennis@home]

On 30/07/2013 09:51, Onetap wrote:
8<

>>
>> The fittings are the same as copper except for solder, you can use
>> cuprofit and compression if you want.
>
> Bulkier than endfeed.
>
>
>>> It's not really suitable for installation anywhere visible. Mice.
>>> You
>>
>>> can scratch it, dragging it through holes in joists and then find
>>> the
>>
>>> fittings leak.
>>
>>
>>
>> Compression fittings on copper leak if you are clumsy enough to
>> scratch
>>
>> the pipe.
>
> Not like plastic. And scratched copper seals if soldered.

It might if its a clean fresh scratch, it might not if its old and dirty.


8<

>
>>
>>> Oxygen permeable; the barrier layer is usually a surface
>>
>>> coating and can get rubbed off.
>>
>>
>>
>> Its a three layer extrusion on all the plastic barrier pipes I have
>> seen.
>
> Pex-Al-Pex. Most plastic tube isn't that type. Standard barrier PEX
> tube is the same as non-barrier tube, except for the outer coating.
> Which can be rubbed off.
>

Most plastic barrier pipe is a three layer extrusion and the barrier bit
in the middle doesn't rub off at all (maybe if you use an AG to cut it).
I suggest you actually have a look at some.

>
>> You could recycle it, there doesn't appear to be anyone doing so.
>
> As stated, non recyclable (bad). No scrap value (good, if you want to
> minimize the chances of theft).
>
> You're just trying to pick holes Dennis to start an argument; you
> just come across as a silly twat.
>

Everything *I* said in this thread is true and correct, if you think it
makes me a twat then that reflects on you.

> Plastic is also much more resistant to freezing damage (but can
> split).
>

You can still pop the joints out which is the usual failure mode I have
seen on copper and plastic. You need a really cold, prolonged spell to
actually split the pipe plastic or copper.

Anyway you have bored me to death so I won't be responding.

[Tim Watts]

On Tuesday 30 July 2013 11:19 dennis@home wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> On 30/07/2013 09:51, Onetap wrote:

>> Not like plastic. And scratched copper seals if soldered.
>
> It might if its a clean fresh scratch, it might not if its old and dirty.

You'd clean it up anyway prior to soldering.

>
> You can still pop the joints out which is the usual failure mode I have
> seen on copper and plastic. You need a really cold, prolonged spell to
> actually split the pipe plastic or copper.

Both are a lot better than lead which would split at the first sight of
frost.

I've had JG Speedfit outside for several winters, frozen and it survived
(plastic has some give).

[dennis@home]

On 30/07/2013 11:23, Tim Watts wrote:


> Both are a lot better than lead which would split at the first sight of
> frost.

My parents had lead mains and they regularly froze and leaked.

>
> I've had JG Speedfit outside for several winters, frozen and it survived
> (plastic has some give).
>

I have had some PB pipe and some copper pipe outside for over 25 years.
They have frozen a few times.
the tap burst once.
the copper pipe pushed the joint out a couple of times.
the pressure reducer burst once.

The plastic has survived so far.
I usually drain it all but as you can tell from above I have forgotten
to do so.

[Onetap]

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:19:25 AM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
> On 30/07/2013 09:51, Onetap wrote:




> Most plastic barrier pipe is a three layer extrusion and the barrier bit
>
> in the middle doesn't rub off at all (maybe if you use an AG to cut it).
>
> I suggest you actually have a look at some.

You're just showing how little you know about it, Dennis.

Most plastic tube used in plumbing is PEX (cross-linked polyethylene).
PIB was used but fell out of favour due to some huge class action in the US over defective joints.

Most plain PEX has an external barrier coating which can be rubbed off. It's also jointed by expanding the tube onto fittings with specialist tools.
These joints are enormously strong, stronger than the tube.

One of the other disadvantages with PEX is that it comes in coils and tries to coil itself back up.
You need to dispense it from a reel roller and fix it as uncoiled.
It will tie itself in knots, if you let it.

The only stuff you're familiar with is the 3-layer PEX-AL-PEX (JG Speedfit) and DIY push-fit fittings.
The aluminium layer was originally there to make the tube bendable to shape and more controllable.
It also acts as an oxygen barrier.
PEX-AL-PEX is more expensive than plain PEX.

It's a real pleasure to assist in your education, as always, Dennis.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <51f7932d$0$15242$c3e8da3$9f40...@news.astraweb.com>,

dennis@home <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
> > Not like plastic. And scratched copper seals if soldered.

> It might if its a clean fresh scratch, it might not if its old and dirty.

You'd solder dirty pipe? Stick to plastic.

--
*Could it be that "I do " is the longest sentence? *

[dennis@home]

On 30/07/2013 14:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <51f7932d$0$15242$c3e8da3$9f40...@news.astraweb.com>,
> dennis@home <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
>>> Not like plastic. And scratched copper seals if soldered.
>
>> It might if its a clean fresh scratch, it might not if its old and dirty.
>
> You'd solder dirty pipe? Stick to plastic.
>

You can't clean deep scratches, how deep ask a plumber, or not.

[dennis@home]

None of the stuff I have has an aluminium layer.
It still has three layers.

Thanks for the education, I now know not to trust anything you say.

[Onetap]

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:20:18 PM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

> None of the stuff I have has an aluminium layer.
>
> It still has three layers.

Really? What make is that?

I can't see the point of making a 3-layer extrusion if the middle isn't aluminium (to add rigidity) when a solid extrusion with a surface coating will do the same

The external barrier layer is EVOH.

> Thanks for the education, I now know not to trust anything you say.

Your choice, Dennis, and no concern to me.

I'm usually right though about this stuff.
My brain seems to hoover up every scrap of information about heating or plumbing.
I'm shit at maths and electronic stuff though.

[Onetap]

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:18:52 PM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
>
> You can't clean deep scratches, how deep ask a plumber, or not.

Wire wool would.
Though you shouldn't use it for soldering.
That silicone abrasive strip would clean up most scratches.

Otherwise active solder, Powerflow or similar. Most plumbers use it.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <51f8038d$0$21006$c3e8da3$1cbc...@news.astraweb.com>,

Correction. *You* can't clean deep scratches. Normal tube cleaning methods
plus a decent flux will deal with any 'scratch'.

--
*7up is good for you, signed snow white*

[alan]

On 27/07/2013 21:37, Dave Liquorice wrote:

>
> It's another, some form of crimp:
>
> http://pegleryorkshire.co.uk/EN/Products/PressFit
>
> Remarkably useless website, doesn't explain how the systems works at
> all. Plenty of repetitive sales puff though.
>

A similar system was shown on the American Chopper TV programme
recently albeit with pipes 2 inch to 12 inch diameter. The team were
going to use it as part of a motor bike but decided against it main
because they didn't think the pipe was strong through for their purposes
BUT in a "throw away" line the pipe/tool representative said that the
joint could fail with vibration.

It was also implied that the copper pipe had to be of the highest quality.

In a domestic environment I assume vibration could heat/cooling cycling
in a central heating system, water hammer etc.




--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

[alan]

On 28/07/2013 12:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

>
> I know from my own experience just how long lasting properly made solder
> fittings are. Until push fit have been around for that sort of time I'll
> reserves judgment. Oh - and then there's the small matter of price.

Where I work, when moving into a new build factory/office they had two
push fit joints fail within two years with the release of a lot of water.

After the second failure the company had the maintenance team in for a
weekend solely to check all the push fit joints. All plumbing was
relatively easily accessible under raised floors and suspended ceilings.

Possibly the failure of a couple of push fit joints in thousands is no
different from the failure expected in other methods of jointing.

[alan]

On 28/07/2013 21:11, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:11:54 +0100, polygonum wrote:
>
>> And whether or not you think so, I would like to have some idea of how
>> copper end feed, pre-soldered, plastic, copper push fit, copper press
>> fit, etc. compare.
>
> BES Sep 12 catalogue that just happens to be next to me:

To which you have to add the cost of labour to fit, and possibly the use
of unskilled labour.

[Onetap]

On Saturday, August 3, 2013 5:18:58 PM UTC+1, alan wrote:

> Possibly the failure of a couple of push fit joints in thousands is no
>
> different from the failure expected in other methods of jointing.

I've never seen a properly soldered joint that had failed.

Badly soldered, elbow worn through, dripping compression joints, etc., but never a good soldered joint.

Plumbers usually use end-feed in their own houses.

[Rob Morley]

On Sat, 3 Aug 2013 10:18:26 -0700 (PDT)
Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:

> I've never seen a properly soldered joint that had failed.
>
> Badly soldered, elbow worn through, dripping compression joints,
> etc., but never a good soldered joint.
>
> Plumbers usually use end-feed in their own houses.
>

That's because it's cheap. :-)

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 03 Aug 2013 17:18:58 +0100, alan wrote:

> Possibly the failure of a couple of push fit joints in thousands is no
> different from the failure expected in other methods of jointing.

Trouble is the falure mode of push fit plastic tends to be the pipe
popping right out of the joint or the O ring giving up, both of which
either produce a lot of water or a fair amount of water.

Compression failure mode tends to be just a weep. Solder rarely
fails.

--
Cheers
Dave.