Question about energy cost

[Scott]

I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
breakfast. This got me thinking.

I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?

[jon]

Yes, I do similar.

[alan_m]

Gas or electric to heat the kettle?

As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
standing charge even if you are not using any gas

A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
gas kettle then the electric kettle.

I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
Microwave = 5p
Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
Electric kettle = 5.4p

Notes:
My Microwave is also a fan oven/grill and after a short period of
microwaving the fan turns on and stays on for a short period afterwards
so an extra cost for the fan.

The electric was measured with a cheap plug in power meter that can
display kWh to 3 decimal places although this resolution is unlikely to
be reflected in it's accuracy.

The gas consumption was taken from readings from my smart gas meter
(reading taken before and after the test). The gas meter reads to 3
decimal places for cubic metres.

The electric kettle automatically switches off once the water is boiling
whereas gas requires intervention so if you are not standing over it you
may incur extra costs.

I came to the conclusion not worth the hassle trying to save a penny a
day making cups of coffee or tea so I've stuck with the electric kettle.

Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
light comes on.

For washing up you may be able to use cold water and detergent for items
that are not greasy.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Scott]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
>> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>>
>> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
>> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
>> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>
>
>Gas or electric to heat the kettle?

Electricity, but I could use gas.

>
>As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
>standing charge even if you are not using any gas

This is true, but the same applies to electricity.

>
>A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>
>I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>Microwave = 5p
>Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>Electric kettle = 5.4p

This seems to be fairly marginal. However, it's not three pints. The
tap has to run for a considerable time before the water from the combi
reaches operating temperature. That is the diseconomy that I am
asking about.

[RJH]

On 29 Apr 2022 at 10:42:04 BST, "Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
> wrote:
>

>> snip

>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>
>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>> Microwave = 5p
>> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>
> This seems to be fairly marginal. However, it's not three pints. The
> tap has to run for a considerable time before the water from the combi
> reaches operating temperature. That is the diseconomy that I am
> asking about.

If you're on a water meter, the c.1p litre will soon start to add up if you're
drawing say 5 litres of water several times a day just to get to the hot water
and wash your hands . . .

I tend to use the electric shower over the bath for a quick wash. I've a combi
boiler and small amounts of hot water - even with the preheat - is the single
worst part of it. Baths and showers are great though.

--
Cheers, Rob

[Scott]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:06:36 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patch...@gmx.com>
wrote:

>On 29 Apr 2022 at 10:42:04 BST, "Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> snip
>>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>>
>>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>>> Microwave = 5p
>>> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>>
>> This seems to be fairly marginal. However, it's not three pints. The
>> tap has to run for a considerable time before the water from the combi
>> reaches operating temperature. That is the diseconomy that I am
>> asking about.
>
>If you're on a water meter, the c.1p litre will soon start to add up if you're
>drawing say 5 litres of water several times a day just to get to the hot water
>and wash your hands . . .

We are not on a water meter (Scotland). My question was about the
cost of heating the water, not the cost of the water.

[RJH]

On 29 Apr 2022 at 11:17:14 BST, "Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:06:36 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patch...@gmx.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 29 Apr 2022 at 10:42:04 BST, "Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> snip
>>>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>>>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>>>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>>>
>>>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>>>> Microwave = 5p
>>>> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
>>>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>>>
>>> This seems to be fairly marginal. However, it's not three pints. The
>>> tap has to run for a considerable time before the water from the combi
>>> reaches operating temperature. That is the diseconomy that I am
>>> asking about.
>>
>> If you're on a water meter, the c.1p litre will soon start to add up if you're
>> drawing say 5 litres of water several times a day just to get to the hot water
>> and wash your hands . . .
>
> We are not on a water meter (Scotland). My question was about the
> cost of heating the water, not the cost of the water.

Ah right, good. You did mention wasting a lot of water and you asked about
efficiency - hence the post.

--
Cheers, Rob

[whisky-dave]

it could depend on which one I have a few at hand and a brennstuhl one I've had a few years
gives quite differnt reading from another couple I have tried and bought last year.
I was testing the power consumpion of PCs on standby and thought 17 Watts was quite high
compared to my home iMac which was about 1 watt.
I just happened to bring my meter from home to work and foudn that my one measured about 1 watt for the PCs whereas the work meter
measured it as 17W , so I bought another one for work which was much better and closer to 1 watt than 17W.
I know computers are different in their VAR.

>
> The gas consumption was taken from readings from my smart gas meter
> (reading taken before and after the test). The gas meter reads to 3
> decimal places for cubic metres.
>
> The electric kettle automatically switches off once the water is boiling
> whereas gas requires intervention so if you are not standing over it you
> may incur extra costs.
>
> I came to the conclusion not worth the hassle trying to save a penny a
> day making cups of coffee or tea so I've stuck with the electric kettle.

Pity you didn't quote what time it took to boil too, as I've found microwave oven to be pretty slow
to heat water in any more than a mug full of water. Plus the extra danger where as cup handle also
gets very hot.
Usually I only need to boil a cup full certainly not 3 pints at a time.

>
> Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
> should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
> shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
> light comes on.

I think they are exaggerating these vampire devices as a smokescreen for making huge profits.
Maybe cheap phone chargers might be a few watts. But things like hubs and routers and TiVos might be 5-10 watts
but it's still minimal unless you have dozens running.

[alan_m]

On 29/04/2022 14:21, whisky-dave wrote:

>
> I think they are exaggerating these vampire devices as a smokescreen for making huge profits.
> Maybe cheap phone chargers might be a few watts. But things like hubs and routers and TiVos might be 5-10 watts
> but it's still minimal unless you have dozens running.
>

There is a EU law, which we adopted, that says new electronic equipment
or white goods? now must be < 1W in standby. My PVR has two standby
modes designated standby and deep standby and it's only the latter that
is around 0.5W. It still wakes up from deep standby for a recording.

[Jeff Layman]

On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:

> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>
> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
> Microwave = 5p
> Gas (water in a large pan fully covering the burners) = 4.6p
> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>
> Notes:
> My Microwave is also a fan oven/grill and after a short period of
> microwaving the fan turns on and stays on for a short period afterwards
> so an extra cost for the fan.
>
> The electric was measured with a cheap plug in power meter that can
> display kWh to 3 decimal places although this resolution is unlikely to
> be reflected in it's accuracy.
>
> The gas consumption was taken from readings from my smart gas meter
> (reading taken before and after the test). The gas meter reads to 3
> decimal places for cubic metres.

Those figure for microwave and electric kettle heating seem strange
unless the microwave has a power factor which affects the reading of the
power meter. An electric kettle is basically 100% efficient (there will
be mainly convection losses of heat though the kettle body. Is the body
of your kettle metal? That will be the most inefficient on retaining
heat, but a glass or plastic-bodied kettle won't be anywhere near as bad).

According to this "Scientific American" 2009 paper at
<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stove-versus-microwave-energy-use/>,
"The magazine’s (Home Energy Magazine) researchers discovered that an
electric burner uses about 25 percent less electricity than a microwave
in boiling a cup of water."

And from a question to
<http://insideenergy.org/2016/02/23/boiling-water-ieq/>

"A microwave is about 50 percent efficient. Most of the energy is lost
in the process of converting electricity to microwaves (which are part
of the electromagnetic spectrum).

An electric stovetop is about 70 percent efficient, although that varies
widely depending on the type of pot or kettle you use. Most of the
energy is lost heating the air around the stove.

An electric teakettle is about 80 percent efficient, although again this
varies from kettle to kettle. Electric kettles are generally very well
insulated, and the heating coils sit directly in the water, so less heat
is lost to the air."

It continued: "Our question asker, Ben, ran a mini-experiment in his own
kitchen. He set up a current-meter on an electric tea kettle, a
microwave, and an induction hot plate and timed how long it took each to
bring 500 mL to a boil. The results came close Williams’ estimates: The
microwave was 34 percent efficient, the electric teakettle 71 percent
efficient, and the induction hotplate 83 percent efficient."

--

Jeff

[Scott]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 12:37:51 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patch...@gmx.com>

Sorry, badly worded on my part. I was using the loss of warm water as
evidence of wasted energy.

[John Rumm]

On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:

> On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
>> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>> breakfast.  This got me thinking.
>>
>> I have a combi boiler.  I intend to turn the heating off for the
>> summer.  Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas.  Would it be more
>> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>
>
> Gas or electric to heat the kettle?
>
> As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
> standing charge even if you are not using any gas
>
> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>
> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
> Microwave = 5p

Transformer based or inverter?

(if that latter, and your power meter is not true RMS that could cause a
low reading)

I am surprised that a microwave would be cheaper than an electric kettle.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Jock]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:21:07 +1000, whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I don't get that with my mugs and always use the microwave.

[Jock]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 01:01:19 +1000, John Rumm
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

> On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:
>> On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
>>> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>>> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>>>
>>> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
>>> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>>> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
>>> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>> Gas or electric to heat the kettle?
>> As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
>> standing charge even if you are not using any gas
>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>> Microwave = 5p
>
> Transformer based or inverter?
>
> (if that latter, and your power meter is not true RMS that could cause a
> low reading)
>
> I am surprised that a microwave would be cheaper than an electric kettle.

The reason for that in the real world is that when you are producing
a single cup full of hot water, there is no wasted hot water with the
microwave, but is maybe even a couple of cups of hot water wasted
with an electric kettle because of how the element is done.

Alan's test with 3 pints isn't a good measure with a cup of hot water.

[whisky-dave]

That's sort of what I was suggesting my Tivo, TV and hub/router are all on the same extention block
and at worst it''s probably 5W but not easy to measure, my 27" iMac flickers bewteen 0, 1,2, watts
So I don;t think modern devices on standby or sleep will make much differnce if unplugged
Think I'm more likely to strain my back bending down to unplug them. .

But here in my lab there are 100 PCs, which is why we bought two new power meters, depending on which one we used
on a 24" dell PC 7460 AIO
when in sleep mode 7-21W : 0-2W : 0-5W watching the display for about 10 seconds.
shutdown 7-12W : 0W : 0W
with login window prompt 38-41W : 36-46W : 34-37W
which are on 24/7 (even though no on uses them after 6pm or before 9am, or sat and sun)
Presently they can't be put into sleep mode either and are left in login window mode
So if I were paying the electric bill for the lab I'd unplug all the PCS.
well actually I'd hit the emergency breaker cut out power for the whole lab, which is what we do over the christmas holidays.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 01:02:37 +1000, Jock, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?
Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

[Peeler]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 01:29:36 +1000, Jock, better known as cantankerous

trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Java Jive to senile Rodent:
You're getting there, it's clear that you've now reached the level of
"Nyah nyah nanyah nyah!", but surely you can be even more juvenile than
that?
MID: <ppouqi$1ror$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

[alan_m]

You are correct. I've just repeated the microwave and kettle tests. The
electric kettle results are similar to before but I must have misread or
done something else wrong with the microwave.

Plastic walled kettle 3 pints or 1.7l = 0.190 kWh (14C to 100C)

Microwave 0.400 kWh taking a few seconds under 20 minutes to heat 14C to
98C. Both fan and light were on 38W for 20 minutes. Both were heating
the oven cavity but the fan was blowing air around the cavity and around
the open toped glass container.

[Max Demian]

Those "deep" standby modes are often unusable as they don't pass the
aerial signal through to the next device in the chain. Unless you have
such a strong signal you can use a passive splitter.

--
Max Demian

[PeterC]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 10:31:48 +0100, alan_m wrote:

> Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
> should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
> shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
> light comes on.

Mine has a clock and is about 10W, but there's an 'eco' button that turns
off the clock and then there's no detectable W or VA.
I've 2 clocks in the kitchen each of which will run for over a years on an
AA cell - I don't need a 10W one.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[Steve Walker]

On 29/04/2022 14:21, whisky-dave wrote:

The one that always annoys me is the sort of figure they quote for
leaving the TV on standby. Our living-room TV is a few years old now,
but takes less than 0.2W on standby. So for, say, 20 hours of standby a
day, at 28p per unit, that's less than 41p per year. I think I'll put up
with the cost for the convenience of not having to switch it on at the
socket and wait for it to "boot" up each time.

[alan_m]

On 29/04/2022 22:18, Steve Walker wrote:

>
> The one that always annoys me is the sort of figure they quote for
> leaving the TV on standby. Our living-room TV is a few years old now,
> but takes less than 0.2W on standby. So for, say, 20 hours of standby a
> day, at 28p per unit, that's less than 41p per year. I think I'll put up
> with the cost for the convenience of not having to switch it on at the
> socket and wait for it to "boot" up each time.
>

But British Gas "research" says £24.61 for the TV! However, their
figures have been heavily criticised as the 2013 EU legislation requires
less than 0.5W in standby giving an annual cost of around £1.30.

Its a similar story with their other equipment figures and their well
publicised vampire annual costs of £147 may also be 20x too high.

Much better to get a smart meter* and achieve those massive savings
promised in the early adverts :)

*Since the demise of Avro I'm now with Octopus and they appear to be
having trouble changing the displayed tariff for the remote smart meter
display module (and presumably the calculated ongoing usage costs). It
appears that customers are on either on one of two update methods and
one method isn't working, and they are aware of the problem. So much for
the benefits of smart meter in monitoring the usage costs :)
It doesn't bother me because I'm aware of the problem but I do wonder if
those with fuel poverty are being mislead by the smart meter still
programmed with pre-April tariff information.
Note: My smart meters have been installed since being moved to Octopus.

[Roland Perry]

In message <jd1pk4...@mid.individual.net>, at 10:31:48 on Fri, 29
Apr 2022, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> remarked:

>Yesterday BG was suggesting that the microwave is a vampire device and
>should be switched off at the mains when not in use. My power meter
>shows 0.0W when not in use, and 22.3W when the door is opened and the
>light comes on.

The issue of "Vampire devices" - although I think that catchy name is
fairly new - crops up regularly. And is often bad science. For example
mobile phone chargers which might have consumed energy 20yrs ago when a
transformer in a wall-wart, are unlikely to use any significant power
when using switched mode technology.

Of course, if they did, then every one of those 13A outlets with a pair
of USB charging sockets would be vampires. But they re completely cold
to the touch.
--
Roland Perry

[Tim+]

alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>
> *Since the demise of Avro I'm now with Octopus and they appear to be
> having trouble changing the displayed tariff for the remote smart meter
> display module (and presumably the calculated ongoing usage costs). It
> appears that customers are on either on one of two update methods and
> one method isn't working, and they are aware of the problem. So much for
> the benefits of smart meter in monitoring the usage costs :)

Mine IHD has never shown costs accurately but it does show real-time
consumption so it’s still useful as a guide to what you’re using at any
moment.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

[Scott]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:18:04 +0100, Steve Walker
<st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
[snip]

>The one that always annoys me is the sort of figure they quote for
>leaving the TV on standby. Our living-room TV is a few years old now,
>but takes less than 0.2W on standby. So for, say, 20 hours of standby a
>day, at 28p per unit, that's less than 41p per year. I think I'll put up
>with the cost for the convenience of not having to switch it on at the
>socket and wait for it to "boot" up each time.

There are some interesting ideas out there. Friend of mine is now
using a battery powered radio to save cost of mains electricity.

[alan_m]

:) :)

If the idea came from facebook it must be true.

[charles]

In article <gbrp6hpf6n1qsrbve...@4ax.com>,

Have they costed the battries? It used to be 10x mains, perhaps 5 times as
much now.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[mm0fmf]

On 30/04/2022 07:56, Roland Perry wrote:
> although I think that catchy name is fairly new - crops up regularly.

It's useful to prod people into thinking about what really needs to be
switched on 24/7 whether it is in standby or not. You may only make a
grand total of 10W saved per house but multiplied up to 5000000 homes
and that's 50MW a day.

[Bob Eager]

The 'greenie' estimates for cost of standby mostly seem to assume a gross
cost of 24/7/365, rather than the marginal cost (i.e. when not in use)
which is a bit less.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[Jock]

5M homes won't be saving 10W

[Peter Able]

On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:

> I came to the conclusion not worth the hassle trying to save a penny a
> day making cups of coffee or tea so I've stuck with the electric kettle.
>

Agreed, but the elephant in the room is the cost of coffee. I'm all for
energy saving, but making an investment when your favourite coffee is on
offer - or by buying larger sizes - or choosing a different but good
enough coffee - or combinations of those strategies could, should, save
way more than "a penny a day".

Ditto, tea.

PA

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <cv8n6ht1nuprfee9c...@4ax.com>,

Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
> breakfast. This got me thinking.

> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?

A kettle is far more 'efficient' at heating water as virtually all the
energy is used for that purpose.

Whether it is cheaper depends on the cost of the electricity against gas.

--
*Many people quit looking for work when they find a job *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Brian D]

alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> But British Gas "research" says £24.61 for the TV! However, their figures
> have been heavily criticised as the 2013 EU legislation requires less than
> 0.5W in standby giving an annual cost of around £1.30.

I checked teh consumption of my old TV which was compliant according to the
handbook. If switched off by the remote it still consumed about 30w. this
dropped to <1w (but more than zero) when the off button on the set was
pressed. There's standby and standby, not necessarily the same.

--
Braind

[Brian D]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> A kettle is far more 'efficient' at heating water as virtually all the
> energy is used for that purpose.
>
> Whether it is cheaper depends on the cost of the electricity against gas.
>

I checked my gas kettle against my electric one some time ago. The cost of
boiling enoigh to make the tea was remarkably similar due to the better
efficiency of the electric kettle. The gas kettle was no doubt more
efficient at heating the room but would need more ventilation.

--
Braind

[Tim Lamb]

In message <59e139f...@davenoise.co.uk>, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> writes

>In article <cv8n6ht1nuprfee9c...@4ax.com>,
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>
>> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
>> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
>> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>
>A kettle is far more 'efficient' at heating water as virtually all the
>energy is used for that purpose.
>
>Whether it is cheaper depends on the cost of the electricity against gas.

Our Quooker would appear to be the ultimate in Vampire loading and I
confess to resisting the installation!
However, apart from the expected annual de-scale, I now confess to being
a convert. Not just my instant cups of Tea but how much use it gets by
SWNFI during normal catering and washing up activities.
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Roland Perry]

In message <t4j0h6$hvd$1...@dont-email.me>, at 10:46:13 on Sat, 30 Apr
2022, mm0fmf <no...@invalid.com> remarked:

Are we in danger of confusing MW and MWh?

Anyway, 50MW is a tenth of one coal-fired power station, or about 20
large wind turbines, or consumption-wise about ten Eurostar trains. It's
all a bit in the noise level.
--
Roland Perry

[Tim+]

But how long did you monitor it for? I have a vague recollection that some
appliances have a two-stage “shut down” and will drop to a lower standby
consumption after a period (maybe after checking for OTA updates?).

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <mpro.rb5ie40028m...@lycos.co.uk>,

I doubt the gas kettle was more efficinet. Feel above and around it for
wasted heat from the flame, and compare to an electric kettle.

Efficiency and cost ain't the same thing.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <mpro.rb5i6j0022r...@lycos.co.uk>,

Just how old is that TV? 30w is more than many take when working. And the
majority of the power is used to 'light' the picture.

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.

[alan_m]

My pvr takes about 30 seconds to go to deep standby. it saves the EPG
etc. to the hard disk so that it can boot to the same state later.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:13:40 +1000, Jock, better known as cantankerous

trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Bill Wright to Rodent Speed:
"That confirms my opinion that you are a despicable little shit."
MID: <pjqpo3$1la0$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

[Scott]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 10:05:51 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:

>In article <gbrp6hpf6n1qsrbve...@4ax.com>,
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:18:04 +0100, Steve Walker
>> <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
>> [snip]
>
>> >The one that always annoys me is the sort of figure they quote for
>> >leaving the TV on standby. Our living-room TV is a few years old now,
>> >but takes less than 0.2W on standby. So for, say, 20 hours of standby a
>> >day, at 28p per unit, that's less than 41p per year. I think I'll put up
>> >with the cost for the convenience of not having to switch it on at the
>> >socket and wait for it to "boot" up each time.
>
>> There are some interesting ideas out there. Friend of mine is now
>> using a battery powered radio to save cost of mains electricity.
>
>Have they costed the battries? It used to be 10x mains, perhaps 5 times as
>much now.

I tried to advance this argument but she said batteries are not very
expensive and last a long time. She also suggests that a battery
powered FM radio will be a lot more efficient than any DAB radio.

[Brian D]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> > I checked my gas kettle against my electric one some time ago. The cost
> > of boiling enoigh to make the tea was remarkably similar due to the
> > better efficiency of the electric kettle. The gas kettle was no doubt
> > more efficient at heating the room but would need more ventilation.

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> I doubt the gas kettle was more efficinet. Feel above and around it for
> wasted heat from the flame, and compare to an electric kettle.
>
> Efficiency and cost ain't the same thing.
>

Read the whole sentence.

--
Braind

[Max Demian]

On 30/04/2022 13:54, Tim+ wrote:

My Sony TV (bought in 2012) only goes into "proper" standby after 7.5
minutes. Presumably in case the user changes his mind and wants to turn
it on again. The USB sockets (one of which I use to power an LED strip
behind it) remain powered up.

It's the lack of attention to details like this that leads to talk of
"zombie devices".

--
Max Demian

[Jock]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 21:40:06 +1000, Dave Plowman (News)
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <cv8n6ht1nuprfee9c...@4ax.com>,
> Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>
>> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
>> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
>> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>
> A kettle is far more 'efficient' at heating water as virtually all the
> energy is used for that purpose.

It's more complicated than that with a single cup of hot water.

There is no wasted hot water when done in the microwave,
there will always be some unused hot water with most kettles
because most need more than just the cup of water in the kettle.

[alan_m]

On 30/04/2022 18:54, Jock wrote:

>
> There is no wasted hot water when done in the microwave,
> there will always be some unused hot water with most kettles
> because most need more than just the cup of water in the kettle.

Most modern kettles have a flat plate element at the base of the kettle
and can boil a single cup of water. Operated this way you possibly need
to clean out the flaking limescale on a regular basis.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 01 May 2022 03:54:44 +1000, Jock, better known as cantankerous

trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 87-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/

[Jock]

alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote

> Jock wrote

>> There is no wasted hot water when done in the microwave,
>> there will always be some unused hot water with most kettles
>> because most need more than just the cup of water in the kettle.

> Most modern kettles have a flat plate element at the base of the kettle

None of mine do and they are all modern kettles. And those will lose
heat thru the base of the kettle which is why not all modern kettles
are done like that, particularly the ones you just lift off the base that
supplys electricity to the element.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 01 May 2022 04:59:52 +1000, Jock, better known as cantankerous

trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

MrTu...@down.the.farm about senile Rodent Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID: <ps10v9$uo2$1...@gioia.aioe.org>

[alan_m]

On 30/04/2022 19:59, Jock wrote:
> alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote
>> Jock wrote
>
>>>  There is no wasted hot water when done in the microwave,
>>> there will always be some unused hot water with most kettles
>>> because most need more than just the cup of water in the kettle.
>
>> Most modern kettles have a flat plate element at the base of the kettle
>
> None of mine do and they are all modern kettles. And those will lose
> heat thru the base of the kettle which is why not all modern kettles
> are done like that, particularly the ones you just lift off the base that
> supplys electricity to the element.

All the kettles that I've seen that lift off the supply base have flat
plate printed elements. They allow a very small amount of water to be
boiled.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 30/04/2022 10:46, mm0fmf wrote:
> but multiplied up to 5000000 homes and that's 50MW a day.

ROFLMAO

--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

[Jock]

On Sun, 01 May 2022 09:08:26 +1000, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 30/04/2022 19:59, Jock wrote:
>> alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote
>>> Jock wrote
>>
>>>> There is no wasted hot water when done in the microwave,
>>>> there will always be some unused hot water with most kettles
>>>> because most need more than just the cup of water in the kettle.
>>
>>> Most modern kettles have a flat plate element at the base of the kettle
>> None of mine do and they are all modern kettles. And those will lose
>> heat thru the base of the kettle which is why not all modern kettles
>> are done like that, particularly the ones you just lift off the base
>> that
>> supplys electricity to the element.
>
> All the kettles that I've seen that lift off the supply base have flat
> plate printed elements.

None of mine do.

> They allow a very small amount of water to be boiled.

But waste heat thru the base.

[Peeler]

On Sun, 01 May 2022 11:29:40 +1000, Jock, better known as cantankerous

trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--

Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better. Since when did arguing with a
troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743...@news.individual.net>

[alan_m]

On 01/05/2022 02:29, Jock wrote:

> But waste heat thru the base.

Strange that when I boil a mug of water in my kettle the base remains
remarkably cool! The plastic sides of the kettle above the element are
warm to hot but not the base. Perhaps they have come up with a novel
idea of building some insulation into the kettle beneath the element?
Perhaps because the element has such a large surface area that boils
water so fast that the base of the kettle hasn't got time to heat up
before you use the cup of water?

[Andrew]

On 30/04/2022 09:36, alan_m wrote:

> On 30/04/2022 09:05, Scott wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 22:18:04 +0100, Steve Walker
>> <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>>> The one that always annoys me is the sort of figure they quote for
>>> leaving the TV on standby. Our living-room TV is a few years old now,
>>> but takes less than 0.2W on standby. So for, say, 20 hours of standby a
>>> day, at 28p per unit, that's less than 41p per year. I think I'll put up
>>> with the cost for the convenience of not having to switch it on at the
>>> socket and wait for it to "boot" up each time.
>>
>> There are some interesting ideas out there.  Friend of mine is now
>> using a battery powered radio to save cost of mains electricity.
>

> :) :)
>
> If the idea came from facebook it must be true.
>
>

hand-cranked radios are still on sale



https://radiofidelity.com/best-wind-up-radio/

[Andrew]

On 29/04/2022 16:01, John Rumm wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:

>> On 29/04/2022 09:42, Scott wrote:
>>> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
>>> breakfast.  This got me thinking.
>>>
>>> I have a combi boiler.  I intend to turn the heating off for the
>>> summer.  Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
>>> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas.  Would it be more
>>> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?
>>
>>

>> Gas or electric to heat the kettle?
>>
>> As pointed out in another thread you will still be paying the daily
>> standing charge even if you are not using any gas
>>
>> A lot of advice on social media recently suggests to make a cup of tea
>> boiling a cup of water in the microwave is the cheapest followed by a
>> gas kettle then the electric kettle.
>>
>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>> Microwave = 5p
>
> Transformer based or inverter?
>
> (if that latter, and your power meter is not true RMS that could cause a
> low reading)
>
> I am surprised that a microwave would be cheaper than an electric kettle.
>
>

Out of interest I plugged ny Panasonic inverter combi-microwave into
a power meter and it uses about 0.3 KwH over a 24 hour period when
used for cooking veg (potato, sliced carrots, leeks) and maybe heating
some liquids a couple of times a day.

Today I warmed up a Higgidy pie that needed 25 minutes at 200C and
it used 0.48 KwH of power. On standby it uses 1w.

[alan_m]

On 01/05/2022 11:15, alan_m wrote:
> On 01/05/2022 02:29, Jock wrote:
>
>> But waste heat thru the base.
>
> Strange that when I boil a mug of water in my kettle the base remains
> remarkably cool!  The plastic sides of the kettle above the element are
> warm to hot but not the base. Perhaps they have come up with a novel
> idea of building some insulation into the kettle beneath the element?
> Perhaps because the element has such a large surface area that boils
> water so fast that the base of the kettle hasn't got time to heat up
> before you use the cup of water?
>

And boiling 1.5l of water and not poring it out for 5 minutes the base
remains cool.

[Vir Campestris]

On 30/04/2022 16:14, Scott wrote:
> I tried to advance this argument but she said batteries are not very
> expensive and last a long time. She also suggests that a battery
> powered FM radio will be a lot more efficient than any DAB radio.

Any FM radio will use less power than a DAB one.

Possibly because there's nothing on FM you want to listen to of course....

Andy

[alan_m]

My little FM radio runs on a couple of AA batteries that seem to last
for 6+ months.

My postable DAB radio has 10 rechargeable AA size batteries that last
for 8 to 10 hours - albeit the radio is now a few years old.

[Andrew]

On 06/05/2022 21:25, Vir Campestris wrote:

Well I prefer FM because I object to listening to bubbling mud if
I try and listen to the same program on DAB.

[charles]

In article <t557qu$8k7$2...@gioia.aioe.org>,

get a proper aerial

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <t5407h$g6b$1...@dont-email.me>,

Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 30/04/2022 16:14, Scott wrote:
> > I tried to advance this argument but she said batteries are not very
> > expensive and last a long time. She also suggests that a battery
> > powered FM radio will be a lot more efficient than any DAB radio.

> Any FM radio will use less power than a DAB one.

And AM even less.

As a youngster starting work, I bought an AM radio kit. In 1962. A PP9 did
about 2 years on that, used every day. 750 mW output to a 7x4 speaker, so
sounded quite reasonable.

> Possibly because there's nothing on FM you want to listen to of
> course....

> Andy

--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

[charles]

In article <59e4cd3...@davenoise.co.uk>,

Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <t5407h$g6b$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > On 30/04/2022 16:14, Scott wrote:
> > > I tried to advance this argument but she said batteries are not very
> > > expensive and last a long time. She also suggests that a battery
> > > powered FM radio will be a lot more efficient than any DAB radio.

> > Any FM radio will use less power than a DAB one.

> And AM even less.

and a crystal set, none at all.

[RJH]

On 6 May 2022 at 21:25:21 BST, "Vir Campestris"

<vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 30/04/2022 16:14, Scott wrote:
>> I tried to advance this argument but she said batteries are not very
>> expensive and last a long time. She also suggests that a battery
>> powered FM radio will be a lot more efficient than any DAB radio.
>
> Any FM radio will use less power than a DAB one.
>

Except this (although it is both DAB and FM):

https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/dab-radios/xdr-s61d

Battery life (JEITA)*

DAB reception
Approx. 17 hours (using Sony (LR6SG) alkaline batteries)
Approx. 7 hours (using Sony (NH-AA) Ni-MH 1,000 mAh batteries)

FM reception
Approx. 17 hours (using Sony (LR6SG) alkaline batteries)
Approx. 7 hours (using Sony (NH-AA) Ni-MH 1,000 mAh batteries)

--
Cheers, Rob

[The Natural Philosopher]

Once you have DAB, you are running a processor which you might as well
use to demodulate the FM too.,

--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <59e4ce1f...@candehope.me.uk>,

charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <59e4cd3...@davenoise.co.uk>,
> Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <t5407h$g6b$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > Vir Campestris <vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > > On 30/04/2022 16:14, Scott wrote:
> > > > I tried to advance this argument but she said batteries are not very
> > > > expensive and last a long time. She also suggests that a battery
> > > > powered FM radio will be a lot more efficient than any DAB radio.

> > > Any FM radio will use less power than a DAB one.

> > And AM even less.

> and a crystal set, none at all.

Good luck with a portable crystal set. ;-)

--
*I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth

[#Paul]

alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> My postable DAB radio has 10 rechargeable AA size batteries that last
> for 8 to 10 hours - albeit the radio is now a few years old.

My DAB radio works off a usb charger, so when away from the
mains I use a mid-capacity (&rechargable) usb power brick.
Not internal, but saves faffing about with lots of AA's.

#Paul

[Andrew]

On 07/05/2022 09:56, charles wrote:
> In article <t557qu$8k7$2...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> Andrew <Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>> On 06/05/2022 21:25, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>> On 30/04/2022 16:14, Scott wrote:
>>>> I tried to advance this argument but she said batteries are not very
>>>> expensive and last a long time. She also suggests that a battery
>>>> powered FM radio will be a lot more efficient than any DAB radio.
>>>
>>> Any FM radio will use less power than a DAB one.
>>>
>>> Possibly because there's nothing on FM you want to listen to of course....
>>>
>>> Andy
>
>> Well I prefer FM because I object to listening to bubbling mud if
>> I try and listen to the same program on DAB.
>
> get a proper aerial
>

I have one, for FM, so that's what I listen to by choice.

There is very little (if anything) on DAB that isn't on
Freeview anyway.

[Martin Brown]

On 07/05/2022 08:28, alan_m wrote:
> On 06/05/2022 21:25, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> On 30/04/2022 16:14, Scott wrote:
>>> I tried to advance this argument but she said batteries are not very
>>> expensive and last a long time.  She also suggests that a battery
>>> powered FM radio will be a lot more efficient than any DAB radio.

Using rechargeables might be a little bit greener.

Explain the price paid for energy content to her.
AA cell is ~3Ah at 1.5v = 5Wh
AA Cells needs 200 of them 1kWh = £35

Mains electricity is presently 20p / 1kWh

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-Performance-Alkaline-Batteries-100-Pack-Grey/dp/B01B8R6PF2/?th=1

A mere factor of 200x more expensive!

>> Any FM radio will use less power than a DAB one.

An FM radio also has the advantage that current draw is strongly
correlated with the volume control. DAB burns lots of power just to
decode the signal even before you amplify it to audibility.

>> Possibly because there's nothing on FM you want to listen to of
>> course....
>>
>
> My little FM radio runs on a couple of AA batteries that seem to last
> for 6+ months.
>
> My postable DAB radio has 10 rechargeable AA size batteries that last
> for 8 to 10 hours - albeit the radio is now a few years old.

Those numbers are about what I see with mine. Sadly my old Sony
worldband FM radio gave up the ghost a while back :(

The DAB radio ran through my entire stock of AA batteries during the
great Northern Powergrid blackout MFU that they blamed on Storm Arwen.
One set every 8 hours. The FM radio would last a few weeks per set.

I actually had to go out and buy some more!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Andrew]

On 09/05/2022 21:26, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 07/05/2022 08:28, alan_m wrote:
>> On 06/05/2022 21:25, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>> On 30/04/2022 16:14, Scott wrote:
>>>> I tried to advance this argument but she said batteries are not very
>>>> expensive and last a long time.  She also suggests that a battery
>>>> powered FM radio will be a lot more efficient than any DAB radio.
>
> Using rechargeables might be a little bit greener.
>
> Explain the price paid for energy content to her.
> AA cell is ~3Ah at 1.5v = 5Wh
> AA Cells needs 200 of them 1kWh = £35
>
> Mains electricity is presently 20p / 1kWh
>

Only for bulb customers who are being subsidised by
the taxpayer

[Martin Brown]

And people still on fixed price contracts at other companies that
haven't quite gone bust yet. I guess 30p/kWh might be about current
market rate. The CEO of my supplier was pleading hardship yesterday.

Even at the new rip off prices batteries are two orders of magnitude
more expensive! Mains power is always better if you can have it.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[KIDS PLAY]

воскресенье, 1 мая 2022 г. в 16:52:15 UTC+2, alan_m:

Hello everyone, I'm the founder of the blog www.radiopicker.com/best-camping-radio-make-the-perfect-choice/ where I share expert articles on topics useful to tech enthusiasts.

[KIDS PLAY]

пятница, 29 апреля 2022 г. в 10:42:17 UTC+2, Scott:

> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>
> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?

[KIDS PLAY]

пятница, 29 апреля 2022 г. в 10:42:17 UTC+2, Scott:
> I was listening to the radio about rising energy bills then I had my
> breakfast. This got me thinking.
>
> I have a combi boiler. I intend to turn the heating off for the
> summer. Without the heating, the hot water seems to take longer to
> arrive wasting a lot of water and presumably gas. Would it be more
> efficient to boil a kettle for the washing up?

Hello everyone, I am the founder of the gardening blog https://gardenguider.com/, sharing expert articles on topics useful to garden and flower lovers

[KIDS PLAY]

суббота, 7 мая 2022 г. в 16:32:09 UTC+2, #Paul:

[KIDS PLAY]

суббота, 7 мая 2022 г. в 16:32:09 UTC+2, #Paul:

Hello, I am https://ricecreamshoppe.com/nuwave-bravo-xl-vs-emeril-air-fryer-360-comparison/, I share expert articles, reviews, I will be glad to every reader

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:
> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
> Microwave = 5p

> Electric kettle = 5.4p

I would suggest those figures have to be wrong. A microwave oven is much
less than 100% efficient, in turning electrical energy into heat. A
kettle, by it's very design, turns all of the energy into heating the
water, except for any losses via the container.

I use the microwave for heating some food, which suites microwave
heating - not all do. I also use it for heating a cup of milk for a
drink, simply because it is the least messy solution.

Kettle is reserved for boiling water needs.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

On 29/04/2022 11:06, RJH wrote:
> I tend to use the electric shower over the bath for a quick wash. I've a combi
> boiler and small amounts of hot water - even with the preheat - is the single
> worst part of it. Baths and showers are great though.

Me too. I tend to only use the bathroom washbasin for hand-washing. When
I need to wash my face, I lean over the edge of the bath and run the
electric shower.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

On 01/12/2022 15:35, KIDS PLAY wrote:
> Hello everyone, I am the founder of the gardening bloghttps://gardenguider.com/, sharing expert articles on topics useful to garden and flower lovers

That's nice dear..

[alan_m]

On 08/12/2022 11:07, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:
>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>> Microwave = 5p
>
>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>
> I would suggest those figures have to be wrong. A microwave oven is much
> less than 100% efficient, in turning electrical energy into heat.

Yes I corrected my post in April saying my microwave readings were in
serious error but the electric kettle vs gas hob readings were valid.

Gas hob and electric kettle were similar figures BUT an electric kettle
turns itself off whereas manual intervention has to be applied to a
kettle on a gas hob. Just boiling just a cup of water on a gas hob and
if you are 15 seconds tardy in turning off the gas the electric kettle
wins out every time.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

On 08/12/2022 11:29, alan_m wrote:
> Yes I corrected my post in April saying my microwave readings were in
> serious error but the electric kettle vs gas hob readings were valid.

I would not attempt to dispute your gas readings, though I wonder how
you are managing to measure such small amounts of gas consumption?

My indoor display is accurate on longer term consumption, but hopelessly
inaccurate for short term measures. Basically, nothing at all registers,
unless a burner is left burning for a considerable period.

The best consumption figures I can use for such small consumers, is the
gas hob manufacturer's figures for Kwh, plus timing to the boil.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

On 30/04/2022 18:54, Jock wrote:
> It's more complicated than that with a single cup of hot water.
>
> There is no wasted hot water when done in the microwave,
> there will always be some unused hot water with most kettles
> because most need more than just the cup of water in the kettle.

Most jug kettle are able to boil just 0.5L of water, which is 2x cups. A
microwave can boil one cup, but they are maybe 50% efficient.
Energy/cost wise not much different, so really down to convenience for
small water volumes, plus wear and tear. I would suggest much more wear
and tear cost to a microwave.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

On 01/12/2022 13:15, KIDS PLAY wrote:
> Hello everyone, I'm the founder of the blogwww.radiopicker.com/best-camping-radio-make-the-perfect-choice/ where I share expert articles on topics useful to tech enthusiasts.

You also post completely unrelated spam, in threads of newsgroups.

[alan_m]

This household used mugs for tea/coffee and the jug kettle can heat just
one mug full however filling to the correct level from the tap is not
that accurate. Possibly a bigger problem for a gas hob kettle being
filled directly from the tap and which has no transparent filling scale
on the side.

My current microwave is also a grill/oven and so switching on the
microwave also switches on a light and fan.

[Chris Green]

In the grand scheme of household electricity costs I don't believe
that making cups of tea by whatewver means is very significant. Even
boiling a full kettle only takes three minutes or so if I remember
right. That's 2.5kW * 3/60 hrs, i.e. about .125kWh, 5p or so.

It's fridges and such that are on all the time and bulk water heating
that make the costs mount up.

--
Chris Green
·

[alan_m]

On 08/12/2022 13:48, Chris Green wrote:

> In the grand scheme of household electricity costs I don't believe
> that making cups of tea by whatewver means is very significant. Even
> boiling a full kettle only takes three minutes or so if I remember
> right. That's 2.5kW * 3/60 hrs, i.e. about .125kWh, 5p or so.
>
> It's fridges and such that are on all the time and bulk water heating
> that make the costs mount up.
>

three cups of tea a day
0.125 x 3 x 365 = 136kWh/year

Typical manufacturers figures

Under counter fridge = 120kWh/year
Under counter freezer = 190kWh/year

American style fridge/frezer = 400kwh/year

[Jeff Layman]

On 08/12/2022 12:42, alan_m wrote:
> On 08/12/2022 12:17, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
>> On 30/04/2022 18:54, Jock wrote:
>>> It's more complicated than that with a single cup of hot water.
>>>
>>> There is no wasted hot water when done in the microwave,
>>> there will always be some unused hot water with most kettles
>>> because most need more than just the cup of water in the kettle.

Not those with the element below a flat base.

> This household used mugs for tea/coffee and the jug kettle can heat just
> one mug full however filling to the correct level from the tap is not
> that accurate. Possibly a bigger problem for a gas hob kettle being
> filled directly from the tap and which has no transparent filling scale
> on the side.

My kettle has a transparent scale, but it doesn't go down to two
mugsful, and even if it did the bottom of the handle would be in the
way. Anyway, the simplest - and most accurate - method of getting one or
more mugsful is simply to fill the mug with cold water and pour that
into the empty kettle.

--

Jeff

[alan_m]

On 08/12/2022 11:48, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> On 08/12/2022 11:29, alan_m wrote:
>> Yes I corrected my post in April saying my microwave readings were in
>> serious error but the electric kettle vs gas hob readings were valid.
>
> I would not attempt to dispute your gas readings, though I wonder how
> you are managing to measure such small amounts of gas consumption?

My smart gas meter displays cubic metres to 3 decimal places. Boil 3
pints of water (rather than i cup full) and reading the delta change on
the gas meter. Then, convert to kWh using the formula on the gas bill.

[alan_m]

On 08/12/2022 11:48, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:

> My indoor display is accurate on longer term consumption, but hopelessly
> inaccurate for short term measures. Basically, nothing at all registers,
> unless a burner is left burning for a considerable period.

While the remote display for smart meters may be updated quite fast for
electric the consumption the gas may only be updated every 30 minutes.
Probably to save the gas meter internal battery which should last a
nominal 10 years. The electric meter has it's own source of power from
the national grid so is not power restricted in the same way :)

The actual meter has a mechanical button where you can get the meter
display to provide the up-to-date information in cubic metres to 3
decimal places.

[RJH]

On 8 Dec 2022 at 14:28:08 GMT, alan_m wrote:

> On 08/12/2022 13:48, Chris Green wrote:
>
>> In the grand scheme of household electricity costs I don't believe
>> that making cups of tea by whatewver means is very significant. Even
>> boiling a full kettle only takes three minutes or so if I remember
>> right. That's 2.5kW * 3/60 hrs, i.e. about .125kWh, 5p or so.
>>
>> It's fridges and such that are on all the time and bulk water heating
>> that make the costs mount up.
>>
>
> three cups of tea a day
> 0.125 x 3 x 365 = 136kWh/year
>

I'd have at least 10 hot drinks a day if I stay at home, 4 if I don't. I don't
think I'm *that* weird . . .

I use one of these kettles:

https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/exclusive/TWK7203GB

Heating to 90C cuts done the energy use a lot (although I only use it with
instant coffee and some teas), and the insulation does actually work/make a
difference. Eye wateringly expensive to buy in the first place though.

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

[Jeff Layman]

"Lid opens at the touch of a button" is an immediate no-no for me. Every
kettle I've had with a spring-operated lid has failed after a few years,
whether cheap or expensive. Either pressing the button will not open the
lid, or the lid will not stay closed.

--

Jeff

[AnthonyL]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 08:39:23 -0000 (UTC), RJH <patch...@gmx.com>
wrote:

>
>I'd have at least 10 hot drinks a day if I stay at home, 4 if I don't. I don't
>think I'm *that* weird . . .
>
>I use one of these kettles:
>
>https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/exclusive/TWK7203GB
>
>Heating to 90C cuts done the energy use a lot (although I only use it with
>instant coffee and some teas), and the insulation does actually work/make a
>difference. Eye wateringly expensive to buy in the first place though.
>

Wow. I think I get a lot of extra cups of tea and coffee with my £13
ASDA kettle:
https://direct.asda.com/george/home/kettles-toasters/white-kettle-17l/050133405,default,pd.html?cgid=D26M10G10C06

Otherwise I'm about as weird as you :)

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

[Roland Perry]

In message <tmsgh9$rcr3$1...@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:21 on Thu, 8 Dec
2022, Harry Bloomfield Esq <a...@harrym1byt.plus.com> remarked:

>On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:
>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>> Microwave = 5p
>
>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>
>I would suggest those figures have to be wrong. A microwave oven is
>much less than 100% efficient, in turning electrical energy into heat.

What is the remainder of it turned into - light, sound, or something
else?

>A kettle, by it's very design, turns all of the energy into heating the
>water, except for any losses via the container.
>
>I use the microwave for heating some food, which suites microwave
>heating - not all do. I also use it for heating a cup of milk for a
>drink, simply because it is the least messy solution.
>
>Kettle is reserved for boiling water needs.

--
Roland Perry

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 09/12/2022 15:18, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tmsgh9$rcr3$1...@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:21 on Thu, 8 Dec
> 2022, Harry Bloomfield Esq <a...@harrym1byt.plus.com> remarked:
>> On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:
>>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>>> Microwave = 5p
>>
>>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>>
>> I would suggest those figures have to be wrong. A microwave oven is
>> much less than 100% efficient, in turning electrical energy into heat.
>
> What is the remainder of it turned into - light, sound, or something else?

Well heat in the electronics - the magnetron mainly.
A bit goes as stray RF

>
>> A kettle, by it's very design, turns all of the energy into heating
>> the water, except for any losses via the container.
>>
>> I use the microwave for heating some food, which suites microwave
>> heating - not all do. I also use it for heating a cup of milk for a
>> drink, simply because it is the least messy solution.
>>
>> Kettle is reserved for boiling water needs.
>

--

"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 23:42:53 +1100, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 08/12/2022 12:17, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
>> On 30/04/2022 18:54, Jock wrote:
>>> It's more complicated than that with a single cup of hot water.
>>>
>>> There is no wasted hot water when done in the microwave,
>>> there will always be some unused hot water with most kettles
>>> because most need more than just the cup of water in the kettle.
>> Most jug kettle are able to boil just 0.5L of water, which is 2x cups.
>> A microwave can boil one cup, but they are maybe 50% efficient.
>> Energy/cost wise not much different, so really down to convenience for
>> small water volumes, plus wear and tear. I would suggest much more wear
>> and tear cost to a microwave.
>
>
> This household used mugs for tea/coffee and the jug kettle can heat just
> one mug full however filling to the correct level from the tap is not
> that accurate.

The obvious thing to do if you care is to fill the mug with
cold water and tip it into the jug and heat the water there.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 14:34:40 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
The Natural Philosopher about senile Rodent:
"Rod speed is not a Brexiteer. He is an Australian troll and arsehole."
Message-ID: <pu07vj$s5$2...@dont-email.me>

[Animal]

Oh if you leave it boil it'll overflow & put the gas out :)

[chop]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 02:18:47 +1100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

> In message <tmsgh9$rcr3$1...@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:21 on Thu, 8 Dec
> 2022, Harry Bloomfield Esq <a...@harrym1byt.plus.com> remarked:
>> On 29/04/2022 10:31, alan_m wrote:
>>> I did a one off test by boiling 3 pints of water in each
>>> Microwave = 5p
>>
>>> Electric kettle = 5.4p
>>
>> I would suggest those figures have to be wrong. A microwave oven is
>> much less than 100% efficient, in turning electrical energy into heat.
>
> What is the remainder of it turned into - light, sound, or something
> else?

Heat. not in the mug of water being heated.