'AGA' look alikes
Michael
that are on the market at present i.e. Avon
Thanks
Mike
Andy Hall
We recently did a kitchen refit with a range of some kind incorporated into
the plan.
Apologies for a rather lengthy response, but a few people have asked about
these and Agas and I thought it worth describing our experience.
As part of this we took a long hard look at the various types and makes
including AGA, Stanley, Avon, Esse, Alpha, Sandyford
in the "AGA" style as well as straightforward gas ranges like Brittania,
Falcon, etc.
Before getting into the makes, I'll also share a few thoughts and
considerations we had before deciding. We did a lot of studying and
checking out because this is a major investment to get wrong.
We set the "conventional" products one one side to begin with to come back
to if the "AGA style" products didn't work out.
Looking at the "AGA" style products, the first things to consider are
whether you want cooking only or hot water and heating as well. If you are
fuelling with gas or oil there is no advantage to using the range to replace
an existing boiler unless it's up for replacement anyway.
THe next point is whether you want the looks only or to have the heat store
technology (it's very low technology) of the AGA and its like.
In the case of the Aga and other heat store devices there is an enormous
thermal mass of cast iron that is very well insulated and maintained at
constant temperature. It takes several hours from cold to reach this and
uses a relatively low powered burner thermostatically controlled.
Other cookers such as the Apollo work on the basis of heat applied before a
cookiing session (generally higher power to produce rapid heating) and
turned off afterwards.
Before looking at all the positives of the "AGA" type, I had a few concerns
about the heat store method.
- Running costs because it's on the whole time. The energy release in the
quiescent state is approx. 1kW. THis equates if I remember correctly to
about £15/month using gas as the fuel. Quite a bit less than we had been
using for electric cooking before.
- Heat release into the kitchen in quiescent state. I did some careful heat
calculations and this works out OK for us. For the winter period, the
warmth is most welcome; in spring and autumn as well. In our kitchen
design an existing radiator was removed from the kitchen and another smaller
one from the adjoining utility room. Both open into a conservatory with
considerable ventilation potential. Most people with AGAs reckon on
shutting them down for a couple of weeks in the hottest month of the summer.
This is a good time to get servicng done plus any decorating and other work.
Basically I think this is something one can live with in the UK climate.
There are many positives which you will read about - they're all pretty much
true:
- Food flavour and cooking results are much better than with conventional
oven/hob. We had previously had a Neff electric fan oven and a gas hob.
The oven tended to dry things out in the wrong way and with cooking times
too short or too long. With the AGA, many more of the cooking processes
happen in the oven rather than the top - one tends to start them on the top
plate and then move the saucepans to one of the ovens. Grilling of items
like bacon takes place in the top of the hottest oven. Toast is made
using a folding wiremesh holder which goes on the boiling plate (hotter one)
and the lid closed on top. You haven't lived until you've tried Aga
toast... :-)
- Controllability is surprisingly good. This was initially another
concern - there are no instant or near instant controls to adjust. However,
the plates and ovens remain at almost constant temperature during cooking
unless it's *really* mammoth. The ovens vary in temperature top to bottom
and from oven to oven but are consistent. This was a constant pain with the
Neff because it tried to maintain constant temperature throughout - not
always what's wanted. The effect is that you can achieve temperatures
higher than most electric ovens at the high end, and have the equivalent of
a slow cooker at the other. A four oven model has more flexibility in this
regard if you have the space. The impact of the two oven is having to move
things around a little more. The relearning exercise from conventional
cooking was short and painless.
- Availability. We have a household of two people and two teenagers. The
teenagers typically want to eat at different and unpredictable times. We've
found that meals prepared conventionally can be kept warmer for longer in
the Aga without drying out than we were able to before. Convenience foods
like pizzas can be cooked quickly when the kids come in without having to
wait for the oven to heat up and to a much better result than the microwave.
- Cooking process. This ends up being a lot less and also more comfortable
than it was before. There is very little heat build up in the kitchen from
the use of the cooker, whereas the electric oven and hob previously created
a large temperature rise in the kitchen. Almost all of the steam and
cooking smells go out of the flue. We have an extractor in the false
fireplace over the range but it gets very little use. There's much less
"hands-on" during cooking a meal which allows more time to chat.
- Other areas are that there is a constant heat source which is great for
airing and warming clothes and the hotter ovens (which is where you would
get cooking splashes) self clean by carbonising everything with fumes going
up the flue. The top and insides of doors and lids need to be cleaned
periodically.
Having decided on a heat storage range we looked at flue types and products.
With Aga for gas one can have conventional, balanced or powered flue. For
us, balanced flue wasn't possible because of the cooker location and we were
concerned about the constant (albeit low) noise from the fan. The
conventional flue used involved using a vitreous stove pipe for the initial
run and then into twin wall metal flue through a room above and into the
roof space; finally exiting through a ridge tile terminal.
We did a lot of looking at the different products and options. For example,
AGA do a conventional hob module which can build alongside or separately to
the cooker if one is concerned to have a conventional hob as well. I was
particularly keen to see the build quality of the products (especially the
enamel finishes and mechanics inside) as well as how the supplier and dealer
operates. It was very clear that AGAs and Rayburns are some way ahead in
all of these areas. I was not impressed with the build quality of the Avon
or Alpha as compared with the Aga, and so the Aga 4 oven was our eventual
choice.
As you probably know by now, the heat store cookers are normally built on
site (they weigh about 500kg). The local dealer did an excellent job of
installing everything. There was one part that we could have done
ourselves, namely a concrete plinth to raise the height of the Aga by about
50mm to conventional worktop height. In the event, for the small cost
involved we had the dealer do it so that they took responsibility for the
whole thing. Two other things to be aware of is that the sizes of the cast
top and front are subject to about a 3-5mm variation between ranges and that
for some servicing (not the regular burner stuff) the top must be able to be
lifted straight upwards - i.e. one must have the cooker forward of any
tiling.
We had one small product issue consisting of a poor and scratched paint job
on one of the rail brackets at the front which we noticed as the installer
was fixing it on. The dealer didn't have a spare in stock so we made a call
to Aga Rayburn's customer service at 5 in the afternoon. A replacement came
by special delivery at 8.30 the following morning and the guy to fit it at
9. I don't think one can fault that for customer responsiveness. Their
web site for ordering cookware (some of it is useful to have if you don't
have saucepans that can go in ovens for example) is equally excellent in
terms of delivery and product quality.
I should add that I've no connection with Aga or their dealers but am a
happy customer. I certainly don't regret the investment.
If you're interested, I do have some photos I took during the build of the
cooker showing the construction - basically very solid engineering.
Drop me a mail if you'd like some JPEGs.
/andy
"Michael" <mill...@mcb.net> wrote in message
news:96u27s$5l5$1...@MANNET-3800-2.mcb.net...
Geep
<mill...@mcb.net> writes
>Does anyone own or have experience of the alternative AGA's (not Stanley)
>that are on the market at present i.e. Avon
>
range, made early 70s. Whilst it is nearly 30 years old, the same model
is still available from the new owners, Ouzledale in Yorkshire, under
the Esse brand : http://www.ouzledale.co.uk/
I'm not sure whether you have inherited one, or are thinking of
purchasing, and I've read Andy's AGA story, so will tell you our
experiences to date.
We have never used a range before, and are thrilled with it, although
have only been using it for about three months. When we moved in, it
was the only heat source, and the house had been empty for several
months. Lighting the range transformed the house - the warmth permeated
the whole house. Admittedly, the weather wasn't too cold last December,
but the heat generated radiated from the chimney (running through the
centre of the house), taking the chill with it.
When first lit, we couldn't get the oven very warm - max. 300-350F,
although did once manage to boil the water in the hot water tank. It
was also supposed to heat the CH, but didn't, so we now have a gas
boiler for hot water and CH. The pipes to the range were disconnected,
and the internal tank filled with dry sand. However, whilst this was
going on, and the fire was out, I took the opportunity to clean the
thing, inside. It was caked solid with ash and soot, and how it
generated any heat I'll never now. Cleaning all the internal air ways,
and scrapping accumulated crud from the firebox has transformed it - the
oven will easily go off the dial (600F) if the fire roars. The chimney
still hasn't been swept, although that will be done next month, after
we've been away for a few days, and let the fire go out. That will
probably increase the efficiency, too.
It has been alight since Christmas, and requires only a riddle and
refill of coal twice a day, morning and early evening. No other
attention required, apart from emptying the ash pan once per day. We
can get away with doing that every two days.
Yes, I admit, ash gets everywhere. Whenever it is riddled, a thin film
of ash seems to travel over most of the ground floor of the house, and
one day I'll remember to shut the kitchen door first :)
You can probably tell that I'm hooked. I think it is wonderful. We do
have a gas cooker etc., but use the range whenever possible, although it
does require a whole new way of thinking. Planning to cook at x degrees
for y minutes is a waste of time - it is more a case of put whatever it
is in the oven, and wait until it has cooked :) The hot plate is
divided into three areas, simmer, warmer and hot, and toast made
directly on the plate is divine. Water boils quickly on the hot area,
and sauces simmer gently on the simmer area.
There are only two controls - a damper where the chimney leaves the
stove, and an air intake in front of the ash pan. I never touch the
damper, which is shut, and regulate the fire with the air intake, which
is always fully closed unless we want the oven hotter than, say 300F.
Turning it to one quarter open heats the oven, and takes about 3/4 of an
hour to reach, say, 500F.
Expensive to run? Probably. We use a more expensive fuel than ordinary
coal (can't remember the name), about UKP13 for 50 kg, and have bought
eleven kg since mid December last year, and probably have 3 - 4 kg stock
at present. However, we use the gas cooker less than we otherwise
would, and the CH is rarely on, so we're saving gas. Solid fuel is
undoubtedly more expensive than gas, but there is something about a
range that a gas boiler doesn't offer - even a combi :)
We tend to dry washing in front of it, rather than use the tumble dryer.
Even thick towels only take a few hours, when spread over an airer, in
the kitchen. There are always warm towels on the rack, and metal
kitchen implements, like whisks and graters tend to sit on the rack
above, before being put away, to ensure that they are dry, and will not
rust.
TBH, now that it has been cleaned, and is more efficient, disconnecting
the water was probably a mistake. I've no doubt that if the water could
be heated by both the range and the gas boiler, further gas could be
saved.
It is a beast, it does require attention, it is messy, but I love it :)
The whole house is always warm, and the kitchen is always welcoming.
Good luck!
--
Graeme
Hertford, England
John Joannides
>Mike
>
>We recently did a kitchen refit with a range of some kind incorporated into
>the plan.
>
>Apologies for a rather lengthy response, but a few people have asked about
>these and Agas and I thought it worth describing our experience.
Andy, excellent posting. I am the owner of an Aga Cooker advocacy
site at www.agacentral.com and I am wondering if I can include
this posting on it somewhere. If this is ok please let me know
(remove the NOSPAMPLEASE if you intend on emailing me).
>THe next point is whether you want the looks only or to have the heat store
>technology (it's very low technology) of the AGA and its like.
>In the case of the Aga and other heat store devices there is an enormous
>thermal mass of cast iron that is very well insulated and maintained at
>constant temperature. It takes several hours from cold to reach this and
>uses a relatively low powered burner thermostatically controlled.
And it also takes several hours to cool down when turned off. This is
an important characteristic as you have to keep it in mind when
turning the Aga off before a servicing. Basically this means turning
it off late afternoon or early evening the day before the service is
due so that the engineer will not burn him/herself. The problem with
this is that it may leave you short in the cooking equipment area
for dinner that night and breakfast in the following morning. I am
not sure how much of this applies to other range style storage
cookers.
>- Running costs because it's on the whole time. The energy release in the
>quiescent state is approx. 1kW. THis equates if I remember correctly to
>about £15/month using gas as the fuel. Quite a bit less than we had been
>using for electric cooking before.
To give a longer term example our old oil fired model ran from a
storage tank in the garden. This had to be filled up about three
times a year at a total yearly cost of about 400 UK pounds.
>- Heat release into the kitchen in quiescent state. I did some careful heat
>calculations and this works out OK for us. For the winter period, the
>warmth is most welcome; in spring and autumn as well. In our kitchen
>design an existing radiator was removed from the kitchen and another smaller
>one from the adjoining utility room. Both open into a conservatory with
>considerable ventilation potential. Most people with AGAs reckon on
>shutting them down for a couple of weeks in the hottest month of the summer.
>This is a good time to get servicng done plus any decorating and other work.
>Basically I think this is something one can live with in the UK climate.
The ambient heat generated by our old Aga in UK summers (south east)
was usually OK. There were a few summers, however, where the kitchen
was decidedly uncomfortable. Your ventilation potential is greater
than ours was however; we just had a few small windows that could
be opened.
>There are many positives which you will read about - they're all pretty much
>true:
Yes they are. The other "benefit" (some might disagree that it is
a benefit) is that you don't get many "cooking smells" in the kitchen
when using the Aga ovens. They go straight up the chimmney and
out into the garden. On occasion this, coupled with a bad memory,
led to items being cooked for over 24 hours, reappearing later
as a hard black mess :-(
>- Other areas are that there is a constant heat source which is great for
>airing and warming clothes and the hotter ovens (which is where you would
>get cooking splashes) self clean by carbonising everything with fumes going
>up the flue. The top and insides of doors and lids need to be cleaned
>periodically.
Our clothes drier was an invaluable addition to our kitchen. It was
hung over the Aga on a rope and pully system (some refer to this
as a dolly maid). We found it the single best accessory that we
had and led to a dramatic reduction in our use of our tumble drier.
Now to the bad thing about Aga cookers; servicing. We might have
been unlucky with our service agents but we found it impossible
to organize a weekend service. Because we both worked this
meant that one of us had to take time off work just to have
the thing serviced. It was also very expensive; servicing from
Aga themselves (or an approved agent) we found to cost about
100 UK pounds a shot. Shocking. We later moved to an independent
service engineer which cost about 50 to 60 but these can be
hard to find. Having said that, now that we don't have one any
more we miss it big time. Now, when we get round to having our
new kitchen done.........
Thanks.
--
webm...@agacentral.com
Ownership - Information - Community
Andy Hall
You can include the posting with pleasure. I can send you some of the
pictures showing the insides and the build if you like. This is done by the
dealer and included in the price. There are large numbers of nuts and bolts
and no instructions or exploded diagrams that I saw.
One thing that I think that you have pointed out (as has Graeme in his post
indirectly) is that the range does alter the equation for calculating energy
costs.
- conventional cooking costs are eliminated.
- much of the energy needed to keep the kitchen warm is provided. We even
have a slate floor with no rugs and this is comfortable in bare feet.
- some of the heat requirement for the bedroom above is provided.
- big difference to the use of the tumble drier. We also find that we are
able to fold items like T-shirts, sheets, towels etc. and place them on the
lid of the cooler simmering plate overnight. Any creases disappear and they
are aired in the morning.
I'm pretty certain that the servicing costs relate in part to the fuel, and
that with oil it's a bit higher than gas because I believe you have to
replace some parts as part of the procedure. We've found on our gas Aga
that the typical cost is about £70/year.
/andy
"John Joannides" <webm...@NOSPAMPLEASEagacentral.com> wrote in message
news:3a9392d0.500837953@newshost...
Michael
looking at a 'newbuild' site and am considering the alternatives (yes i
would ideally like a 4 oven AGA), but I also want a workshop etc.
Thanks
Mike
Public <Anonymous_Account>
> Does anyone own or have experience of the alternative AGA's (not Stanley)
> that are on the market at present i.e. Avon
Yes, I run a Rayburn Supreme, which burns any old thing, really,
but I use anthracite stove nuts (natural anthracite, not processed
which is slightly dearer). Running on a pretty low setting, one
quite large radiator/hot water uses about 10Kg of this a day.
Ash can be a problem, it is advisable to open the damper a minute
or two before riddling/emptying so that it can be sucked up the
flue by the draught instead of coming out into the kitchen. The
thing should be used every so often (at least once a week, I
should think) all year, to stop the CI innards suffering too
quickly from condensation/acid/rust attack. It is far more
pleasant to de-ash when warm and dry, too. An old vacuum cleaner
is a boon, but don't suck up anything hot or the results will
be very interesting! It is no problem to keep the fire in, but
as I'm running it pretty slowly, response time (for cooking) is
slow - I tend to throw some timber on when I need to cook. To
use the thing for cooking can be inconvenient, depending on
circumstances, so I've a conventional oven as well. It is a
Good Thing.
Beware of extractor fans if your house is draughtproof. WRT
gas or oil boilers, NOISE can be a problem - if you want to
get one, try to see one running in someone's home before you
talk seriously to the shop man.
atalbehari.
---
This message did not originate from the Sender address above.
It was posted with the use of anonymizing software at
http://anon.xg.nu
---
John Stumbles
> Does anyone own or have experience of the alternative AGA's (not Stanley)
> that are on the market at present i.e. Avon
[following up to Andy & Co's postings also]
my parents had an Aga from when we moved to the house my mother still
lives in in about 1960. At first it was solid fired, which was a minor
chore to empty and refuel and a major pita if it went out (which of course
it did if you went away for a couple of days).
For the last 20 years or more it's been gas fired. As a conversion
it may not be representative of a designed for gas model. I'd second
others' comments about the culture of top & bottom ovens (a bit like the
idea of ovens with a deliberate heat gradient, on a recent thread) and the
usefulness of a scotch airer or whatever you call the arrangement of four
sticks on a frame of sort of coat-hangers suspended by ropes & pulleys
from the ceiling over it: ISTR my parents had a tumble-drier in the house
we moved from, and in the house with the Aga it didn't get much use and
eventually disappeared!
I have to say the downside to cooking on the hotplates is getting
the pans balanced just so on the edge of the plate e.g. when you're
cooking pasta to keep the contents boiling without erupting over the top!
Also (and this may replect on the conversion to gas) when you've
done a lot of cooking, especially on the top, the poor thing gets a bit
worn out and won't cook so fast.
As for heating water, I'd rate it better only than a back-burner
in the living room fireplace :-(. Left alone it raises the water to a
dangerous temperature, but any serious demand reduces it to tepid. Again
this may reflect on the basic design as a solid fuel appliance.
As for toast, I can't say we've ever used a top-plate toaster, but
going by the enthusiastic reports I must give it a go! We did use to use
it for making welsh cakes on a thick alloy plate and it was excellent for
that.
regards,
--
John Stumbles j.d.st...@reading.ac.uk
I.T. Services Centre, University of Reading http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~visstmbl
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
never generalise
Andy Hall
I think from what I've read in various places that the gas models have
improved gradually over the years. Some people say that conversions are not
as good as ranges with the gas burner in from the beginning. I have a
feeling that it may be due to the newer models effectively modulating the
burner. On ours, once it's initially warm, the burner flames drop down to
a lower level but not completely out. As one begins cooking and drawing
heat they come up to full power.
We were able to set the thermostat so that the thermometer stays precisely
on the centre mark between cooking sessions quite consistently.
We find that with day to day cooking, the thermometer only drops a couple of
mm towards the black area - not enough to cause a change to cooking times at
all. There is slightly more of a drop if we do prolonged cooking on the
top, but this is shortlived and we rarely get into the situation anyway by
using the ovens where possible. Even major events like Christmas lunch for
the horde were not a problem, the large turkey being cooked overnight in the
simmering oven as recommended in the Aga cookbooks.
The regime of boiling things initially on the boiling plate and transferring
to the simmering plate seems to work for us, although I think the pans have
an influence - we invested in some of the heavy stainless steel Aga Cookware
ones.
Two accessories I'd recommend. The toaster (folding mesh pingpong bat) is a
must for toast. You won't make it any other way again, I promise you -
boiling plate to make toast, simmering plate for toasted sandwiches.
Secondly the ridged cast iron griddle pan. Does the most excellent
steaks..... You can get both from Edwards & Godding in Reading, BTW, or
online as I typically do.
The general comment on use of the Aga to produce hot water is that unless
your use is small and you don't have an alternative, there's no point. The
dealer openly admitted that. Even with a new gas model the heat input is
only a max of 5kW which is going to give quite a slow recovery as you
notice. The recommendation is to use a Rayburn if you want to heat water
and radiators.
/andy
"John Stumbles" <viss...@reading.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.WNT.4.30.01022...@supc16.rdg.ac.uk...