Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
has 15mm copper tube recently got thinner walled?
921 views
Skip to first unread message
RobertL
Feb 13, 2013, 4:39:10 AM2/13/13
to
I've noticed recently that my 15mm compression joints seem to leak more often than they used to. There seems to be a smaller region between "too loose" and "overtight" when doing them up.
Has the wall thickness of standard 15mm copper tube been reduced recently as an economy measure perhaps?
Robert
Has the wall thickness of standard 15mm copper tube been reduced recently as an economy measure perhaps?
Robert
Brian Gaff
Feb 13, 2013, 5:16:07 AM2/13/13
to
Not sure about that but I did overhear a chap a few doors away complaining
that he thought the copper quality was crap nowadays and too soft to keep it
leak free. Maybe it is the material?
Brian
--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"RobertL" <rober...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ef073115-e26d-4877...@googlegroups.com...
that he thought the copper quality was crap nowadays and too soft to keep it
leak free. Maybe it is the material?
Brian
--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"RobertL" <rober...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ef073115-e26d-4877...@googlegroups.com...
Nightjar
Feb 13, 2013, 5:31:52 AM2/13/13
to
On 13/02/2013 09:39, RobertL wrote:
> I've noticed recently that my 15mm compression joints seem to leak more often than they used to. There seems to be a smaller region between "too loose" and "overtight" when doing them up.
>
> Has the wall thickness of standard 15mm copper tube been reduced recently as an economy measure perhaps?
Which 'standard' copper tube are you buying? BS EN 1057 copper tube
> I've noticed recently that my 15mm compression joints seem to leak more often than they used to. There seems to be a smaller region between "too loose" and "overtight" when doing them up.
>
> Has the wall thickness of standard 15mm copper tube been reduced recently as an economy measure perhaps?
comes in three different recommended thickness of wall (0.7mm, 0.8mm and
1.0mm) and three more that are recognised but not recommended.
Colin Bignell
Roger Mills
Feb 13, 2013, 5:35:16 AM2/13/13
to
On 13/02/2013 09:39, RobertL wrote:
or 70's (it was 1/2" rather than 15mm in those days). If using an
internal bending spring, you needed the right spring to match the spec
of the pipe.
The pipe which I've bought recently seems to be harder - so maybe the
olives don't bite as well. If you use softer olives (copper rather than
brass) they might deform to the shape of the tube more easily and make a
better seal.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.
RobertL
Feb 13, 2013, 6:16:26 AM2/13/13
to
In reply to Roger. yes the old 1/2" was much thicker but the OD was pretty close to 15mm so it can still be used. I have a small stock.
Robert
F Murtz
Feb 13, 2013, 9:10:59 AM2/13/13
to
diameter remains the same.
Bob Minchin
Feb 13, 2013, 9:27:12 AM2/13/13
to
with the hardness than the absolute thickness.
I seem to recall different 'tables' in the spec. Table X and table Y
seem to ring a bell but I can't recall which was the bendable and which
was not.
Tim Watts
Feb 13, 2013, 10:03:46 AM2/13/13
to
On Wednesday 13 February 2013 10:35 Roger Mills wrote in uk.d-i-y:
> On 13/02/2013 09:39, RobertL wrote:
>> I've noticed recently that my 15mm compression joints seem to leak more
>> often than they used to. There seems to be a smaller region between "too
>> loose" and "overtight" when doing them up.
>>
>> Has the wall thickness of standard 15mm copper tube been reduced recently
>> as an economy measure perhaps?
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>
> I'm not aware that it's changed recently. It certainly did in the 60's
> or 70's (it was 1/2" rather than 15mm in those days). If using an
> internal bending spring, you needed the right spring to match the spec
> of the pipe.
>
> The pipe which I've bought recently seems to be harder - so maybe the
> olives don't bite as well. If you use softer olives (copper rather than
> brass) they might deform to the shape of the tube more easily and make a
> better seal.
I use brass generally, and tighten to get a *slight* bite into the pipe (no
> On 13/02/2013 09:39, RobertL wrote:
>> I've noticed recently that my 15mm compression joints seem to leak more
>> often than they used to. There seems to be a smaller region between "too
>> loose" and "overtight" when doing them up.
>>
>> Has the wall thickness of standard 15mm copper tube been reduced recently
>> as an economy measure perhaps?
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>
> I'm not aware that it's changed recently. It certainly did in the 60's
> or 70's (it was 1/2" rather than 15mm in those days). If using an
> internal bending spring, you needed the right spring to match the spec
> of the pipe.
>
> The pipe which I've bought recently seems to be harder - so maybe the
> olives don't bite as well. If you use softer olives (copper rather than
> brass) they might deform to the shape of the tube more easily and make a
> better seal.
way it can slip off then). It does take a fair bit of welly, so I usually
mentally refresh myself by undoing the first joint and checking, then muscle
memory seems to keep me going for the next batch.
But I agree that the hardness of copper pipe seems higher now than
yesteryear.
--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/
http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage
Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet
Tim Watts
Feb 13, 2013, 10:04:09 AM2/13/13
to
Andrew Gabriel
Feb 13, 2013, 10:35:31 AM2/13/13
to
In article <jjmsu9-...@squidward.local.dionic.net>,
it (with a blow lamp or over a gas stove). You don't need to quench
it (makes no difference with copper), but you can do so if it's
useful to you to have it cooled quickly for handling, and that may
reduce the time it has for surface oxidation at high temperature.
It hardens with vibration and bending (work hardening).
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Tim Watts <tw+u...@dionic.net> writes:
> But I agree that the hardness of copper pipe seems higher now than
> yesteryear.
That's easily changed. You soften (anneal) copper just by heating
> But I agree that the hardness of copper pipe seems higher now than
> yesteryear.
it (with a blow lamp or over a gas stove). You don't need to quench
it (makes no difference with copper), but you can do so if it's
useful to you to have it cooled quickly for handling, and that may
reduce the time it has for surface oxidation at high temperature.
It hardens with vibration and bending (work hardening).
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Nightjar
Feb 13, 2013, 10:44:16 AM2/13/13
to
On 13/02/2013 14:27, Bob Minchin wrote:
> F Murtz wrote:
>> Nightjar wrote:
>>> On 13/02/2013 09:39, RobertL wrote:
>>>> I've noticed recently that my 15mm compression joints seem to leak
>>>> more often than they used to. There seems to be a smaller region
>>>> between "too loose" and "overtight" when doing them up.
>>>>
>>>> Has the wall thickness of standard 15mm copper tube been reduced
>>>> recently as an economy measure perhaps?
>>>
>>> Which 'standard' copper tube are you buying? BS EN 1057 copper tube
>>> comes in three different recommended thickness of wall (0.7mm, 0.8mm and
>>> 1.0mm) and three more that are recognised but not recommended.
>>>
>>> Colin Bignell
>>>
>>>
>> The wall thickness does vary according to the aplication but the outside
>> diameter remains the same.
> Some grades are not suitable for bending either. I suspect more to do
> with the hardness than the absolute thickness.
Most plumbing applications use half hard tube, but microbore normally
> F Murtz wrote:
>> Nightjar wrote:
>>> On 13/02/2013 09:39, RobertL wrote:
>>>> I've noticed recently that my 15mm compression joints seem to leak
>>>> more often than they used to. There seems to be a smaller region
>>>> between "too loose" and "overtight" when doing them up.
>>>>
>>>> Has the wall thickness of standard 15mm copper tube been reduced
>>>> recently as an economy measure perhaps?
>>>
>>> Which 'standard' copper tube are you buying? BS EN 1057 copper tube
>>> comes in three different recommended thickness of wall (0.7mm, 0.8mm and
>>> 1.0mm) and three more that are recognised but not recommended.
>>>
>>> Colin Bignell
>>>
>>>
>> The wall thickness does vary according to the aplication but the outside
>> diameter remains the same.
> Some grades are not suitable for bending either. I suspect more to do
> with the hardness than the absolute thickness.
uses fully annealed and for some applications fully hard tube is
available. The harder the tube, the more difficult it is to bend for a
given size.
>
> I seem to recall different 'tables' in the spec. Table X and table Y
> seem to ring a bell but I can't recall which was the bendable and which
> was not.
for 15mm tube. Table Y was thick wall tube - 1.0mm for 15mm tube.
Colin Bignell
Bob Minchin
Feb 13, 2013, 10:56:37 AM2/13/13
to
Tim Watts wrote:
> On Wednesday 13 February 2013 10:35 Roger Mills wrote in uk.d-i-y:
>
>> On 13/02/2013 09:39, RobertL wrote:
>>> I've noticed recently that my 15mm compression joints seem to leak more
>>> often than they used to. There seems to be a smaller region between "too
>>> loose" and "overtight" when doing them up.
>>>
>>> Has the wall thickness of standard 15mm copper tube been reduced recently
>>> as an economy measure perhaps?
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm not aware that it's changed recently. It certainly did in the 60's
>> or 70's (it was 1/2" rather than 15mm in those days). If using an
>> internal bending spring, you needed the right spring to match the spec
>> of the pipe.
>>
>> The pipe which I've bought recently seems to be harder - so maybe the
>> olives don't bite as well. If you use softer olives (copper rather than
>> brass) they might deform to the shape of the tube more easily and make a
>> better seal.
>
> I use brass generally, and tighten to get a *slight* bite into the pipe (no
> way it can slip off then). It does take a fair bit of welly, so I usually
> mentally refresh myself by undoing the first joint and checking, then muscle
> memory seems to keep me going for the next batch.
>
> But I agree that the hardness of copper pipe seems higher now than
> yesteryear.
>
I always put a smear of general purpose grease on the threads of new
> On Wednesday 13 February 2013 10:35 Roger Mills wrote in uk.d-i-y:
>
>> On 13/02/2013 09:39, RobertL wrote:
>>> I've noticed recently that my 15mm compression joints seem to leak more
>>> often than they used to. There seems to be a smaller region between "too
>>> loose" and "overtight" when doing them up.
>>>
>>> Has the wall thickness of standard 15mm copper tube been reduced recently
>>> as an economy measure perhaps?
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm not aware that it's changed recently. It certainly did in the 60's
>> or 70's (it was 1/2" rather than 15mm in those days). If using an
>> internal bending spring, you needed the right spring to match the spec
>> of the pipe.
>>
>> The pipe which I've bought recently seems to be harder - so maybe the
>> olives don't bite as well. If you use softer olives (copper rather than
>> brass) they might deform to the shape of the tube more easily and make a
>> better seal.
>
> I use brass generally, and tighten to get a *slight* bite into the pipe (no
> way it can slip off then). It does take a fair bit of welly, so I usually
> mentally refresh myself by undoing the first joint and checking, then muscle
> memory seems to keep me going for the next batch.
>
> But I agree that the hardness of copper pipe seems higher now than
> yesteryear.
>
compression fittings which saves effort when tightening and stops that
'orrible screeching noise. Not aware of any difference in the minimal
number of weeping joints over the years.
I refuse to use sealing jollop as it makes reworking a nightmare once it
has gone hard.
Roger Mills
Feb 13, 2013, 3:05:30 PM2/13/13
to
On 13/02/2013 15:56, Bob Minchin wrote:
>>
> I always put a smear of general purpose grease on the threads of new
> compression fittings which saves effort when tightening and stops that
> 'orrible screeching noise. Not aware of any difference in the minimal
> number of weeping joints over the years.
> I refuse to use sealing jollop as it makes reworking a nightmare once it
> has gone hard.
If by "sealing jollup" you mean stuff like Boss White, I agree. But LS-X
>>
> I always put a smear of general purpose grease on the threads of new
> compression fittings which saves effort when tightening and stops that
> 'orrible screeching noise. Not aware of any difference in the minimal
> number of weeping joints over the years.
> I refuse to use sealing jollop as it makes reworking a nightmare once it
> has gone hard.
http://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-ls-x-leak-sealer/23614 cleans up fairly
well if you need to remake the joint later.
Ericp
Feb 13, 2013, 4:26:50 PM2/13/13
to
Onetap
Feb 14, 2013, 4:20:48 PM2/14/13
to
Table Y was soft annealed and came in coils
Table Z was hard drawn and wasn't suitable for bending.
I can't be arrsed to look up the BS EN modern equivalents.
Onetap
Feb 14, 2013, 4:23:41 PM2/14/13
to
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:26:50 PM UTC, Ericp wrote:
>
>
> http://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf
That'll confuse him.
That's the US standards.
>
>
> http://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf
That'll confuse him.
That's the US standards.
Onetap
Feb 14, 2013, 4:29:37 PM2/14/13
to
On Thursday, February 14, 2013 9:23:41 PM UTC, Onetap wrote:
> That'll confuse him.
>
> That's the US standards.
Try this one;
> That'll confuse him.
>
> That's the US standards.
http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/plumbing-heating-and-sprinklers/downloads/pub-88-copper-tube-in-buildings.pdf
Lots more info on that site.
harry
Feb 15, 2013, 2:15:01 AM2/15/13
to
On Feb 13, 2:27 pm, Bob Minchin
There is table X pipe that is"half hard" and can't be bent, only used
with fittings. The wall thickness is less.
I've noticed some DIY places selling it.
with fittings. The wall thickness is less.
I've noticed some DIY places selling it.
Onetap
Feb 15, 2013, 7:39:48 AM2/15/13
to
On Friday, February 15, 2013 7:15:01 AM UTC, harry wrote:
> There is table X pipe that is"half hard" and can't be bent, only used
>
> with fittings. The wall thickness is less.
>
> I've noticed some DIY places selling it.
No, Harry.
> There is table X pipe that is"half hard" and can't be bent, only used
>
> with fittings. The wall thickness is less.
>
> I've noticed some DIY places selling it.
Table X was the standard plumbing tube, half-hard.
Table Z was the hard-drawn thin-walled tube that was not intended to be bent.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/copper-tube-working-pressure-d_20.html
These standards (BS 2871:1971) are obsolete, some BS EN equivalent standards are used now.
One of the plumbers on another forum claimed to have bent Table Z tube regularly, having been supplied with it for contracts. He did seem to know his stuff, I don't think he was mistaken.
I can't recall whether he annealed it first.
0 new messages