OT - Experience of OpenReach FTTP installation via telegraph poles

[leen...@yahoo.co.uk]

Hi All,

As mentioned on another thread, I am getting FTTP installed tomorrow. My current phone line is provided from a telegraph pole in the street to a gable end at the front of my house and into the loft room the other side. The master socket is then at the back of the house diagonally opposite where the line enters the property.

Looking at the options to run the fibre internally, rather than run it around the house like the existing line, it would be much easier for them to move the entry point to the front gable on the other side of the house and from where it would enter the property there is a clear run to the master socket.

So couple of questions
1. Will OpenReach be removing my current copper line anyway and therefore need to run a new fibre line from the telegraph pole anyway so therefore shouldn't matter to them running to a different location?
2. If they will not do it, I assume they have to run it internally to the current master socket? OpenReach have previously moved the Master socket from where it enters the property to the new location and put connectors (in the old box) and used my cat6 cable to do it.

Any top tips appreciated

thanks

Lee.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Only they can tell you I'd have thought on this one, as it depends on
current policies and the current situation re hard wired phones.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"leen...@yahoo.co.uk" <leen...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:89ec2ea8-25a5-4b1d...@googlegroups.com...

[Martin Brown]

You can ask the engineer to do what you want but whether or not you get
it depends a lot on how he's feeling that day, and/or tea and biscuits.
They are much less intransigent than the jobsworths phone jockeys.

I don't know. OpenReach are pretending to install FTTP in my village at
the moment as in laying the fibre cable in conduits and overhead but
there is no sign of any attempt to sell it to their customers.

Be interested to know how you get on!

My phone line enters on a gable end and the master socket is very
conveniently on the inside of that wall at the far end of the loft
(thanks to BT). It is a PITA for plugging into the test socket.

Still they are not as bad as Belgacom who installed my ISDN box in the
middle of the dining room so we could admire all the flashing lights.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Andy Burns]

leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> 1. Will OpenReach be removing my current copper line anyway and therefore need to run a new fibre line from the telegraph pole anyway so therefore shouldn't matter to them running to a different location?
> 2. If they will not do it, I assume they have to run it internally to the current master socket? OpenReach have previously moved the Master socket from where it enters the property to the new location and put connectors (in the old box) and used my cat6 cable to do it.

The engineer will be more or less accommodating, depending on whether your ISP
is paying for a "standard" install or a "premium" install, modulo the quality of
tea and biscuits on offer.

<https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/fibre-broadband/installation-options>

[Pancho]

On 29/09/2021 08:35, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

The ONT (The modem/master socket) needs power, so they need to put it
somewhere close to a mains plug.

With a telegraph I would prefer an upstairs cupboard. To put the
equipment in, hidden away. Allows me to run Cat-6 cable to other parts
of the house via the loft.

You might even want to ask them to put it in the loft if it is
accessible and you have power.

I think in my case they left the old copper. But it isn't used so I'm
not really sure.

[SH]

my fibre install is by City fibre.

The person taking my order said that all installations had to be on teh
ground floor as the engineers are not insured for working at height. I
didn't want flashing lights and unsightly boxes on display in living
areas so I got the install done in my garage.

(I had already laid ethernet from the loft down to the garage, the
network rack is in the loft)

I also managed to be given a 20m and a 10m pack of fibre with couplers
by the engineers so I could relocate the ONT and Router to the loft.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 29/09/2021 08:35, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> As mentioned on another thread, I am getting FTTP installed tomorrow.
> My current phone line is provided from a telegraph pole in the street
> to a gable end at the front of my house and into the loft room the
> other side. The master socket is then at the back of the house
> diagonally opposite where the line enters the property.
>
> Looking at the options to run the fibre internally, rather than run
> it around the house like the existing line, it would be much easier
> for them to move the entry point to the front gable on the other side
> of the house and from where it would enter the property there is a
> clear run to the master socket.
>
> So couple of questions 1. Will OpenReach be removing my current
> copper line anyway and therefore need to run a new fibre line from
> the telegraph pole anyway so therefore shouldn't matter to them
> running to a different location?

yes, and no.

Existing copper will go.But it dies matter to them where the new
location is.

As I have said in my case they insisted on a ground level location for
terminating the fibre. So they can access it fir test purposes. and on a
short optical route through the wall to where the 'modem' was situated

> 2. If they will not do it, I assume they have to run it internally to
> the current master socket?

If you are talking VOIP there is no no masteer soicket

> OpenReach have previously moved the Master socket from where it
> enters the property to the new location and put connectors (in the
> old box) and used my cat6 cable to do it.
>

There is no master socket with pure fibre.

If you are retaining a copper circuit they will split the copper pair
from the fibre at the point the old drop cable terminated and connect to it

So the new FTTP will follow the same overhead route as the copper did.
If you retain a copper circuit it will be patched into that there, so
the master socket is not affected, before being brought down to ground
level as fibre only, to be terminated somewhere (in) convenient.

A fibre will then be routed to inside where the modem will sit.
Depending on set up this modem, or the router, attached to it by CAT 5/6
then becomes the telephone master point for VOIP installations.



--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

[Andy Burns]

SH wrote:

> my fibre install is by City fibre.

with the best will in the world, that's unlikely bear any relation to the O/P
who is getting an openreach install

[charles]

In article <irin1d...@mid.individual.net>,

I remember, some 40 years ago, replacing my CU, for which the company fuse
should be removed. I said "I reckon this will take me about an hour, if you
come back then, I can put the kettle on". It worked. ;-)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Mark Carver]

On 29/09/2021 08:35, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> As mentioned on another thread, I am getting FTTP installed tomorrow.

I'll be interested to see how you get on.

How, and by what means is the upgrade happening ?

Did you initiate it ? Or did Openreach initiate it, or was it your ISP ?

How much notice were you given ?

[Pancho]

I should have said, I supervised a friend's install.

OpenReach did it from the telegraph pole to an upstairs cupboard, where
I had previously (years ago) relocated the master socket.

[leen...@yahoo.co.uk]

Just checked with Vodafone and it is premium apparently so "all should be fine" they said :)

[leen...@yahoo.co.uk]

>
> I don't know. OpenReach are pretending to install FTTP in my village at
> the moment as in laying the fibre cable in conduits and overhead but
> there is no sign of any attempt to sell it to their customers.

For ours, it took a few weeks before it was available for purchase. The OR engineers were very friendly so chatted with them about when it will be available etc. They said that once the fibre is installed there are still a few more things needed before it is available for use.

Interestingly they initially opened up up to 900mbps but all of a sudden changed it to max 100 mbps (I think) unless you went with BT where you could get the 900 mbps. All a bit suspicious to me.

[Andy Burns]

leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Interestingly they initially opened up up to 900mbps but all of a sudden
> changed it to max 100 mbps (I think) unless you went with BT where you could
> get the 900 mbps. All a bit suspicious to me.

I suspect openreach have to offer all speeds at the same price to all ISPs

[leen...@yahoo.co.uk]

I initiated it to get faster broadband. I have switched from EE (ADSL) to Vodafone FTTP. I had a number of issues with my ADSL connection which OR/ EE could never seem to get to the bottom of. At least now I have a completely new setup - probably with its own problems but will cross that bridge if/ when I get there :)

[leen...@yahoo.co.uk]

They did initially then pulled it for all suppliers except BT. A neighbour ordered >100mbps from Vodafone at the same time as me and Vodafone cancelled it because OR pulled it even though you can still get 900 mbps from BT.

[Robin]

On 29/09/2021 13:29, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> I don't know. OpenReach are pretending to install FTTP in my village at
>> the moment as in laying the fibre cable in conduits and overhead but
>> there is no sign of any attempt to sell it to their customers.
>
> For ours, it took a few weeks before it was available for purchase. The OR engineers were very friendly so chatted with them about when it will be available etc. They said that once the fibre is installed there are still a few more things needed before it is available for use.
>
> Interestingly they initially opened up up to 900mbps but all of a sudden changed it to max 100 mbps (I think) unless you went with BT where you could get the 900 mbps. All a bit suspicious to me.
>

Why suspicious? BT may just be willing to face the hassle of people
complaining they don't get the full 9000 while others wait while
Openreach do the snagging. Others - e.g. Hyperoptic and Zen - certainly
offer 900 in some places.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[leen...@yahoo.co.uk]

Suspicious because originally you could buy all tariffs from all providers up to 900 mbps. OR then pulled it from all providers other than BT (their "own") even though my neighbour had already purchased one and then got it cancelled.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Actually the commercial entity there is BT wholesale. But it does seem
that certain technically possible options are not so offered


--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

[Theo]

The OP is on Vodafone, who own (or whatever) Cityfibre. It is possible it's
OR doing the install under contract from Cityfibre or something like that.
I think CF use OR ducts, which means some of their network uses OR on the
ground even if the wiring belongs to CF.

Theo

[Chris B]

On 29/09/2021 08:35, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> As mentioned on another thread, I am getting FTTP installed tomorrow. My current phone line is provided from a telegraph pole in the street to a gable end at the front of my house and into the loft room the other side. The master socket is then at the back of the house diagonally opposite where the line enters the property.

I have recently been through this process using BT contractors (ie its
BT broadband being installed)

>
> Looking at the options to run the fibre internally, rather than run it around the house like the existing line, it would be much easier for them to move the entry point to the front gable on the other side of the house and from where it would enter the property there is a clear run to the master socket.
>
> So couple of questions
> 1. Will OpenReach be removing my current copper line anyway and therefore need to run a new fibre line from the telegraph pole anyway so therefore shouldn't matter to them running to a different location?

In my experience no they do not remove the old line. In my case they
don't even come off the same pole. Old analogue line is off pole at
front of house, new fibre is off pole at back of house. They would not
go round to where the old line entered the house "as the fibre cable
wont bend round the corners of the house". Its minimum bend radius is
quite large.

> 2. If they will not do it, I assume they have to run it internally to the current master socket?

Your current master socket will be redundant. A new one will be
installed (a modem) which has to be close to a power point as it will
need mains power. And in my case they insisted that it must be on an
outside wall.

OpenReach have previously moved the Master socket from where it enters
the property to the new location and put connectors (in the old box) and
used my cat6 cable to do it.
>
> Any top tips appreciated
>
> thanks
>
> Lee.
>

In my case they were very keen to install the modem on the ground floor
- but the wall where they wanted to put it luckily had no power. (the
fibre termination box has to be at ground level for future
serviceability - to save climbing ladders to get to the cable terminator)

So they brought the fibre from the pole to the eaves of the house and
down the outside wall to a termination block, then from the fibre
termination block a cable goes back up the wall and through the wall on
the first floor to the modem (which connects to the router).

My fitter was adamant that the modem must be fitted on an outside wall.
(you can then put the router wherever you like if you have a suitable
network cable).

(Make sure you put some carpet dust protector where they will drill the
hole in the wall).

--
Chris B (News)

[The Natural Philosopher]

My experience with IDnet over the last 3 years. after moving back to my
house post divorce:

ADSL: 6 or 7 support calls moving speed up from 2Mbps unreliable to
6,5Mbps reliable.

FTTP: 1 support call to tell me how to set up the router PPP interface
to them..

Now am not saying that FTTP has given me smooth seamless uninterrupted
internet access, but none of the issues have been with the last 15 miles.

In short FTTP has been a total 'fit and forget' experience - far more so
than neighbours' FTTC, where VDSL routers fall over lock up. etc. Mind
you I bought my own router and paid a lot for it.

And I am getting a pretty rock solid 34-38Mbps with actual download
speeds >4Mbps from it.

--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

[The Natural Philosopher]

Well you can get it from IDnet if you want.

https://www.idnet.com/ultrafast-broadband.php

If you have FTTP, that's what you can get delivered over it.

Why Vodafone didn't want to, is a different matter

And again, Openreach do not sell to ISPs or to BT retail, BT wholesale do...



--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

[The Natural Philosopher]

Except that is simply not true.
Other providers offer speeds over 160Mbps
And Openreach are not the agency supplying. BT wholesale are.


--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

[Andy Burns]

leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> I suspect openreach have to offer all speeds at the same price to all ISPs
>
> They did initially then pulled it for all suppliers except BT.

Then I suspect OFCOM ought to investigate openreach's lack of neutrality ...

[SH]

I confirm that City fibre do use BT ducts.

I watched then push fish tape down from my BT telephone copper cable
install into teh BT duct that was installed back in 1985.

There is a inspection chamber down the road which then has two further
ducts, one leadig to a BT cabinet and the other to a city fibre cabinet.

So they then pulled through nylon tubing from the CF cabinet right back
to my house and there is a nice new CF termination box right next to the
existing BT box.

The fibre was then blown through.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 29/09/2021 14:21, Chris B wrote:
> On 29/09/2021 08:35, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> As mentioned on another thread, I am getting FTTP installed tomorrow.
>> My current phone line is provided from a telegraph pole in the street
>> to a gable end  at the front of my house and into the loft room the
>> other side.  The master socket is then at the back of the house
>> diagonally opposite where the line enters the property.
>
> I have recently been through this process using BT contractors (ie its
> BT broadband being installed)
>
>
>>
>> Looking at the options to run the fibre internally, rather than run it
>> around the house like the existing line, it would be much easier for
>> them to move the entry point to the front gable on the other side of
>> the house and from where it would enter the property there is a clear
>> run to the master socket.
>>
>> So couple of questions
>> 1. Will OpenReach be removing my current copper line anyway and
>> therefore need to run a new fibre line from the telegraph pole anyway
>> so therefore shouldn't matter to them running to a different location?
>
> In my experience no they do not remove the old line.  In my case they
> don't even come off the same pole.

In my case the exact reverse happened. They did use the same pole and
they did remove the existing cable. and use te same run.

>> 2. If they will not do it, I assume they have to run it internally to
>> the current master socket?
> Your current master socket will be redundant.  A new one will be
> installed (a modem) which has to be close to a power point as it will
> need mains power.  And in my case they insisted that it must be on an
> outside wall.
>

same here, except I retained copper circuit back to original master socket

>
> In my case they were very keen to install the modem on the ground floor
> - but the wall where they wanted to put it luckily had no power. (the
> fibre termination box has to be at ground level for future
> serviceability - to save climbing ladders to get to the cable terminator)
>

same here

> So they brought the fibre from the pole to the eaves of the house and
> down the outside wall to a termination block,  then from the fibre
> termination block a cable goes back up the wall and through the wall on
> the first floor to the modem (which connects to the router).
>

They refused to do that for me... well that's not true. they didn't
mention the possibility, and since I had a power socket next to a cat 5
socket on a ground floor, going back to my 'machine room' it was a no
brainer to stick the modem there, since I wasn't using it for VOIP.

My master socket, and router stayed in the same place.

> My fitter was adamant that the modem must be fitted on an outside wall.
>  (you can then put the router wherever you like if you have a suitable
> network cable).

I think that is the key point

you can run as long a CAT5 from the modem to the router as you like,
which allows you to have what becomes the 'master phone socket' on the
router and your wifi hub on the router, in the most convenient place.

And cat 5/6 can be run externally round the house if you must. Out
through the wall and in again. Or up through the eaves and into the loft
area and down into a top floor room.

>
> (Make sure you put some carpet dust protector where they will drill the
> hole in the wall).
>

:-)

slate floor in my case.
30 seconds with (one of the) the Henrys...


--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

[SH]

bear in mind that if the cable between the ONT and the modem is too
long, the line speec will drop dramtically....

How do I know this?

I once ran a 10m ethernet cable between the ONT in garage to loft to
allow me to move modem/router to loft. Line speed dropped to well below
100 Mbit/s

So I ended up extending the fibre so the ONT went into the loft and the
original short cable repurposed for the PPoE connection between ONY and
Modem/router

[Mark Carver]

On 29/09/2021 16:01, SH wrote:
>
> I once ran a 10m ethernet cable between the ONT in garage to loft to
> allow me to move modem/router to loft. Line speed dropped to well
> below 100 Mbit/s

Copper Ethernet doesn't do rate adaption, does it ? It'll either be 10,
100, or 1000 Mb/s. or are you suggesting something else ?

[Robin]

On 29/09/2021 13:54, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

So you reckon (a) OR & BT decided to wreck the agreement that stopped BT
having to sell Openreach and (b) none of BT's competitors ran to Ofgem
about it. I can just about imagine insane middle managers doing (a)
locally. I find (a)+(b) just plain incredible.

[leen...@yahoo.co.uk]

I have just spoken with a neighbour who had his installed the other day. His was also from a telegraph pole in the street to the gable end of the house. For his installation, there were 2 parts.
1. the fibre was run to the gable end and then down the outside wall to a small grey box which apparently OR said this was for easy diagnostic access and had to be outside and below waist height.
2. the fibre was then run from this point to "wherever he wanted it" - in his case they run the return cable back up the wall to the gable end and into the loft room where they fitted the ONT and ISP router.

In the discussions about needing to be on an outside wall and ground level above, does this distinction resonate? i.e. the requirement is for the "diagnostic box" rather than the ONT? Although I thought you were saying that the ONT needed to be inside the house but on an external wall so maybe not the same as this?

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 29/09/2021 18:03, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> In the discussions about needing to be on an outside wall and ground
> level above, does this distinction resonate? i.e. the requirement is
> for the "diagnostic box" rather than the ONT? Although I thought you
> were saying that the ONT needed to be inside the house but on an
> external wall so maybe not the same as this?

My installer said they don't like to run a long fibre from the box to
the ONT/modem.

And my router etc wasn't on an outside wall..so it seemed easiest to put
the modem where there was cat 5 and power on the ground floor on an
outside wall




--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

[leen...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Wednesday, 29 September 2021 at 18:34:01 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 29/09/2021 18:03, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > In the discussions about needing to be on an outside wall and ground
> > level above, does this distinction resonate? i.e. the requirement is
> > for the "diagnostic box" rather than the ONT? Although I thought you
> > were saying that the ONT needed to be inside the house but on an
> > external wall so maybe not the same as this?
> My installer said they don't like to run a long fibre from the box to
> the ONT/modem.
>

Seems like that might be to do with the level of installation the ISP has agreed with OR ( https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/fibre-broadband/installation-options). Standard is up to 10m and premium up to 30m. The details don't mention anything about outside walls only within 1m of a plug

> And my router etc wasn't on an outside wall..so it seemed easiest to put
> the modem where there was cat 5 and power on the ground floor on an
> outside wall

Did you get to the bottom of the outside wall requirement? I can't see any logical reason other than they don't want to put on a stud wall for ease of fixing or something? The need to have an accessible diagnostics box seems sensible but another neighbour said they didn't do that on their house!

[John Rumm]

On 29/09/2021 08:35, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> As mentioned on another thread, I am getting FTTP installed tomorrow.
> My current phone line is provided from a telegraph pole in the street
> to a gable end at the front of my house and into the loft room the
> other side. The master socket is then at the back of the house
> diagonally opposite where the line enters the property.
>

> Looking at the options to run the fibre internally, rather than run
> it around the house like the existing line, it would be much easier
> for them to move the entry point to the front gable on the other side
> of the house and from where it would enter the property there is a
> clear run to the master socket.
>
> So couple of questions 1. Will OpenReach be removing my current
> copper line anyway and therefore need to run a new fibre line from
> the telegraph pole anyway so therefore shouldn't matter to them
> running to a different location?

They certainly won't feel constrained to using the current locations if
there is an easier or better option available. They brought my fibre in
to a new bracket a few feet away from the copper lines. The did use the
same path to get into the house, but that was only partly because I had
already rerouted the wiring from the point of landing from the pole to
trunked CAT5e round the other side of the house and into the place I had
my comms cabinet.

Don't know if they will actually take out old copper though.

> 2. If they will not do it, I assume
> they have to run it internally to the current master socket?

There is no master socket as such. They will mount the ONT somewhere and
plug the fibre into that.

If going VoIP as well, then the phone master socket would now be on the
router. (which could be wired back to the house extensions if desired)

> OpenReach have previously moved the Master socket from where it
> enters the property to the new location and put connectors (in the
> old box) and used my cat6 cable to do it.
>
> Any top tips appreciated

See what happens on the day. IME the guys doing the work are usually
more flexible and accommodating than the people managing them would lead
you to believe.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 29/09/2021 18:52, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On Wednesday, 29 September 2021 at 18:34:01 UTC+1, The Natural
> Philosopher wrote:
>> On 29/09/2021 18:03, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> In the discussions about needing to be on an outside wall and
>>> ground level above, does this distinction resonate? i.e. the
>>> requirement is for the "diagnostic box" rather than the ONT?
>>> Although I thought you were saying that the ONT needed to be
>>> inside the house but on an external wall so maybe not the same as
>>> this?
>> My installer said they don't like to run a long fibre from the box
>> to the ONT/modem.
>>
> Seems like that might be to do with the level of installation the ISP
> has agreed with OR (
> https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/fibre-broadband/installation-options).
> Standard is up to 10m and premium up to 30m. The details don't
> mention anything about outside walls only within 1m of a plug
>

I think it would probably have been a bit more than 30m and a lot of
hassle to get the fibre from ground level up into the loft, and down the
wiring trunking to where the router and so on is.
So really the best fit between HIS requirement for a short drop fibre,
and a local mains point and my requirement for it not to be in a living
or dining room. and to be on the crap side of the property AND near a
CAT5 cable, meant it ended up where it did.

>
>> And my router etc wasn't on an outside wall..so it seemed easiest
>> to put the modem where there was cat 5 and power on the ground
>> floor on an outside wall
>
> Did you get to the bottom of the outside wall requirement? I can't
> see any logical reason other than they don't want to put on a stud
> wall for ease of fixing or something? The need to have an accessible
> diagnostics box seems sensible but another neighbour said they didn't
> do that on their house!

I think it is *probably* because short of running the fibre in trunking,
there is a distinct possibility that long internal fibre runs = damage
from people and pets. Fibre is fragile. Cable clamps may well upset it.
Outside, the fibre is tough, but the drop cable is a different beast


The problem is that the whole network up to and including the modem (or
NTE if you must) is openreach's problem : and given the issues of
supporting premises you can get into and your kit inside in an
environment you can't control, their attitudes is simply 'we wont
support internal fibre runs'


--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

[Robin]

Ahem, for Ofgem please read Ofcom.

[Roland Perry]

In message <sj1p88$3cr$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:21:11 on Wed, 29 Sep
2021, Chris B <ne...@salis.co.uk> remarked:

>So they brought the fibre from the pole to the eaves of the house and
>down the outside wall to a termination block, then from the fibre
>termination block a cable goes back up the wall and through the wall on
>the first floor to the modem (which connects to the router).
>
>My fitter was adamant that the modem must be fitted on an outside wall.
>(you can then put the router wherever you like if you have a suitable
>network cable).

Sounds just like BT ADSL 20yrs ago, and living in a terraced house the
only suitable place for their substantial modem/router box was in the
front bedroom.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <85e9506d-4abc-4dc0...@googlegroups.com>, at
10:03:50 on Wed, 29 Sep 2021, "leen...@yahoo.co.uk"
<leen...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:

>I have just spoken with a neighbour who had his installed the other
>day. His was also from a telegraph pole in the street to the gable end
>of the house. For his installation, there were 2 parts. 1. the fibre
>was run to the gable end and then down the outside wall to a small grey
>box which apparently OR said this was for easy diagnostic access and
>had to be outside and below waist height.

How does this work if you live in an upstairs maisonette?
--
Roland Perry

[Pancho]

In my case the cable went telephone pole to soffit and then directly to
an upstairs cupboard. Never got within 3m of the ground.

This was a normal house, but the area does have a high proportion of
houses converted to flats so maybe OpenReach relaxed this rule in the area.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 30/09/2021 06:36, Roland Perry wrote:

I think that they run longer drop fibre to the modem from a ground floor
access point

But I am not betting the farm on it


--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

[John Rumm]

On 29/09/2021 16:01, SH wrote:

That does not really make any sense...

The connection between ONT and router is Ethernet... so all the normal
Ethernet rules apply - maximum segment length ~100M, connection speed
10/100/1000 Mbps etc.

> How do I know this?
>
> I once ran a 10m ethernet cable between the ONT in garage to loft to
> allow me to move modem/router to loft. Line speed dropped to well below
> 100 Mbit/s

Do you genuinely mean line speed, or just overall throughput?

If the former, how do you know the line speed dropped?

I could see that a crappy CCS or CCA CAT5E cable (or just a badly made
patch lead) could result in a high error rate on the ethernet that would
knacker throughput, but can't see how that could affect the optical side
of the ONT.

[John Rumm]

On 29/09/2021 18:03, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> I have just spoken with a neighbour who had his installed the other
> day. His was also from a telegraph pole in the street to the gable
> end of the house. For his installation, there were 2 parts. 1. the
> fibre was run to the gable end and then down the outside wall to a
> small grey box which apparently OR said this was for easy diagnostic
> access and had to be outside and below waist height. 2. the fibre was
> then run from this point to "wherever he wanted it" - in his case
> they run the return cable back up the wall to the gable end and into
> the loft room where they fitted the ONT and ISP router.
>
> In the discussions about needing to be on an outside wall and ground
> level above, does this distinction resonate? i.e. the requirement is
> for the "diagnostic box" rather than the ONT? Although I thought you
> were saying that the ONT needed to be inside the house but on an
> external wall so maybe not the same as this?

Keep in mind that practice has changed with time, so what we got may not
match your experience.

For example, I have no external box - the fibre is routed from the pole,
through the wall, and then to the ONT which was placed in a location of
my choice (next to my comms cabinet), and on an internal wall.

[John Rumm]

On mine they in effect brought the drop cable inside and directly to the
ONT (they stripped back the copper pair, and the outer jacket about 1m
before the ONT)

> The problem is that the whole network up to and including the modem (or
> NTE if you must) is openreach's problem : and given the issues of
> supporting premises you can get into and your kit inside in an
> environment you can't control, their attitudes is simply 'we wont
> support internal fibre runs'

Which makes perfect sense from the installer's and maintainer#s points
of view. Also solves all the discussion about paid for call outs should
the fault be on the customer's side etc.

[Pancho]

On 30/09/2021 10:56, John Rumm wrote:
>> I once ran a 10m ethernet cable between the ONT in garage to loft to
>> allow me to move modem/router to loft. Line speed dropped to well
>> below 100 Mbit/s
>
> Do you genuinely mean line speed, or just overall throughput?
>
> If the former, how do you know the line speed dropped?
>
> I could see that a crappy CCS or CCA CAT5E cable (or just a badly made
> patch lead) could result in a high error rate on the ethernet that would
> knacker throughput, but can't see how that could affect the optical side
> of the ONT.
>
>

When I wired my house, I found the cat-5e cable got kinks, due to twist
in the cable and these caused the speed to drop to 100Mb/s. I
straightened the cable and it then worked fine.

I think there is a minimum bend radius required for gigabit.

[Roland Perry]

In message <sj4166$ubr$2...@dont-email.me>, at 10:48:54 on Thu, 30 Sep
2021, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:

>On 30/09/2021 06:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <85e9506d-4abc-4dc0...@googlegroups.com>,
>>at 10:03:50 on Wed, 29 Sep 2021, "leen...@yahoo.co.uk"
>><leen...@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> I have just spoken with a neighbour who had his installed the other
>>>day.  His was also from a telegraph pole in the street to the gable
>>>end of the house.  For his installation, there were 2 parts. 1. the
>>>fibre was run to the gable end and then down the outside wall to a
>>>small grey box which apparently OR said this was for easy diagnostic
>>>access and had to be outside and below waist height.

>> How does this work if you live in an upstairs maisonette?
>
>I think that they run longer drop fibre to the modem from a ground
>floor access point

Do they have permission to install things on the outside of other
people's houses? I suppose if they were wiring that one up at the same
time, the owner might not object, as long as the drop fire isn't as
hideous as the typical Virgin Media cobwebs, all over the outside of
their customers' houses.

>But I am not betting the farm on it

--

Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

John Rumm wrote:

> SH wrote:
>
>> bear in mind that if the cable between the ONT and the modem is too long, the
>> line speec will drop dramtically....
>
> That does not really make any sense...

Agreed, if it's a working cat5e cable, can't see that the ONT->router would
care, should manage 1Gbe easily.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Gigabit has a length limit of 100 meters. On CAT 5E/CAT 6

and you shouldn't bend it too hard.

now 100 meters sounds like a lot, but when you tale a circuitouus route,
it isnt.

I am not sure how a beyond the limit cable behaves. whether it slows
down or simply stops.

But an IP link faced with data corruption will slow down and try
retransmits of corrupt packets




--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

[Andy Burns]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 30/09/2021 12:13, Andy Burns wrote:
>> John Rumm wrote:
>>
>>> SH wrote:
>>>
>>>> bear in mind that if the cable between the ONT and the modem is too long,
>>>> the line speec will drop dramtically....
>>>
>>> That does not really make any sense...
>>
>> Agreed, if it's a working cat5e cable, can't see that the ONT->router would
>> care, should manage 1Gbe easily.
>>
> Gigabit has a length limit of 100 meters. On CAT 5E/CAT 6
>
> and you shouldn't bend it too hard.
>
> now 100 meters sounds like a lot, but when you tale a circuitouus route, it isnt.

But SH said a 10m run killed his speed.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Then he prolly had a kinked or faulty wire

[brian]

In message <89ec2ea8-25a5-4b1d...@googlegroups.com>,
"leen...@yahoo.co.uk" <leen...@yahoo.co.uk> writes

>Hi All,
>
>As mentioned on another thread, I am getting FTTP installed tomorrow.
>My current phone line is provided from a telegraph pole in the street

>to a gable end at the front of my house and into the loft room the

>other side. The master socket is then at the back of the house
>diagonally opposite where the line enters the property.
>

>Looking at the options to run the fibre internally, rather than run it
>around the house like the existing line, it would be much easier for
>them to move the entry point to the front gable on the other side of
>the house and from where it would enter the property there is a clear
>run to the master socket.
>
>So couple of questions
>1. Will OpenReach be removing my current copper line anyway and
>therefore need to run a new fibre line from the telegraph pole anyway
>so therefore shouldn't matter to them running to a different location?

>2. If they will not do it, I assume they have to run it internally to

>the current master socket? OpenReach have previously moved the Master

>socket from where it enters the property to the new location and put
>connectors (in the old box) and used my cat6 cable to do it.
>
>Any top tips appreciated
>

>thanks
>
>Lee.

I had the same. The telegraph linesman took the fibre/copper line to the
the existing end-of line mounting and connected the copper pair to the
existing line. He then ran the fibre down the wall and drilled a hole
through the wall to the dining room where there was power and he could
mount the fibre modem ( not very well as it fell off)

The alternative was to run a FG black wire/fibre across the wall of my
nice recently decorated kitchen in place of the nicely hidden existing
phone line.

Brian
--
Brian Howie

[leen...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Wednesday, 29 September 2021 at 08:35:05 UTC+1, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> As mentioned on another thread, I am getting FTTP installed tomorrow. My current phone line is provided from a telegraph pole in the street to a gable end at the front of my house and into the loft room the other side. The master socket is then at the back of the house diagonally opposite where the line enters the property.
>
> Looking at the options to run the fibre internally, rather than run it around the house like the existing line, it would be much easier for them to move the entry point to the front gable on the other side of the house and from where it would enter the property there is a clear run to the master socket.
>
> So couple of questions
> 1. Will OpenReach be removing my current copper line anyway and therefore need to run a new fibre line from the telegraph pole anyway so therefore shouldn't matter to them running to a different location?
> 2. If they will not do it, I assume they have to run it internally to the current master socket? OpenReach have previously moved the Master socket from where it enters the property to the new location and put connectors (in the old box) and used my cat6 cable to do it.
>
> Any top tips appreciated
>
> thanks
>
> Lee.

Hi All,

Thought I would give an update on what happened.

The main OR engineer was great - very helpful and accommodating. It seems like the accessible external box thing is a way for them to check the fibre to the property without the owner being there. In the discussion about where best to route the cables, we did discuss putting this in my garage instead and his argument was more about convenience calling out OR in the future and have to schedule being in rather than anything else. Whilst they are responsible up to and including the ONT box, I guess it enables an easier check of everything before the property this way.

He run the new fibre to wherever I wanted it (ended up on the fascia of my other gable), run a cable down to the external box and back up to the gable and in to the loft room. Internally cable run from front to back in my comms room as I wanted. In terms of the ONT box, he noticed that the internal stud wall where I have the master socket so suggested he put the ONT as well was not yet plastered so asked whether I wanted it on the wall or for him to give whatever slack I wanted on the fibre and leave it loose so it can be fitted to the wall later. I decided to go for the latter.

So all in all, if it wasn't for the need to go down and back up to the external box, would have been perfect. Thanks again all for all your help and advice.

[Vir Campestris]

On 02/10/2021 11:42, leen...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> The main OR engineer was great - very helpful and accommodating.

Ours was happy to put an external junction box where it was convenient
to them, then run a fibre inside to the under stairs cupboard.

He looked a bit worried by that until I told him there is a power point
ready for it.

Andy

[Martin Brown]

On 29/09/2021 16:01, SH wrote:

> bear in mind that if the cable between the ONT and the modem is too
> long, the line speec will drop dramtically....
>
> How do I know this?
>
> I once ran a 10m ethernet cable between the ONT in garage to loft to
> allow me to move modem/router to loft. Line speed dropped to well below
> 100 Mbit/s

If you use the worst quality badly fitting tarnished connectors and
really cheap and nasty cable then that might just be true.

I can't detect any noticeable attenuation or noise on my 30m (as 2x 15m
runs and an extra joint in it) run with decent quality components. If
you are running GB 1000M lines then you do have to be a lot more careful
about kinks and bends since they will potentially cause reflections.

> So I ended up extending the fibre so the ONT went into the loft and the
> original short cable repurposed for the PPoE connection between ONY and
> Modem/router

If you use quality cable and don't run it parallel to mains wiring for
an extended length or put kinks in it then there really shouldn't be any
problem with moderate ethernet cable lengths of a few tens of metres.

Longer than internal distances in most homes.

Your experience is atypical of most installations.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[John Walliker]

A common reason for only getting 100Mbit/s or less is accidentally
using two-pair patch cables. They are often supplied with adsl and
sometimes even vdsl modems and routers.
Gigabit ethernet does not use higher frequencies than 100Mbit, but it does
use all four pairs bi-directionally and has more signalling levels so there
is less noise margin. On the other hand, it has echo cancellers at each end
which will help it to cope with cable imperfections.

John