Can I use cable instead of flex in my house wiring?

[george - dicegeorge]

Can I use cable instead of flex in my house wiring?

I have lots of old lighting cable,
so instead of buying new grey flex
can I legally use the old cable to wire my house lights and rings?

(I have already notified Herefordshire Building Control
that I'm rewiring some circuits.)

[george]

[John Rumm]

On 22/03/2013 22:26, george - dicegeorge wrote:

> Can I use cable instead of flex in my house wiring?

Aside from pendant drops to lampholders, you are unlikely to need any
flex in a basic rewire...

> I have lots of old lighting cable,

Do you mean cable?

Cable is what you do wire a house in... flex is used for connections
between appliances and their plug typically.

> so instead of buying new grey flex
> can I legally use the old cable to wire my house lights and rings?

You need 1.0 or 1.5mm^2 T&E for lighting circuits, and typically 2.5mm^2
T&E for socket circuits...

wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Cables

> (I have already notified Herefordshire Building Control
> that I'm rewiring some circuits.)

Bet that surprised them!



--
Cheers,

John.

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[Frank Erskine]

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 22:26:37 +0000, george - dicegeorge
<diceg...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Can I use cable instead of flex in my house wiring?
>
>I have lots of old lighting cable,
>so instead of buying new grey flex
>can I legally use the old cable to wire my house lights and rings?

No.

Obviously you don't know what you're doing, or at least don't make
yourself clear.

--
Frank Erskine

[Graham.]

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 22:26:37 +0000, george - dicegeorge
<diceg...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Stranded figure eight wire for the lights, but use proper solid copper
core bell wire for the sockets.
Tape-join a foot or so of the appropriate size twin and earth at each
accessory, in case BC inspector comes.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

[george - dicegeorge]

sorry,
yes,
i got the words back to front!
will try again...
[g]

[george - dicegeorge]

On 22/03/13 22:46, John Rumm wrote:
> On 22/03/2013 22:26, george - dicegeorge wrote:
>
>> Can I use cable instead of flex in my house wiring?
>
> Aside from pendant drops to lampholders, you are unlikely to need any
> flex in a basic rewire...
>
>> I have lots of old lighting cable,
>
> Do you mean cable?
>
> Cable is what you do wire a house in... flex is used for connections
> between appliances and their plug typically.
>
>> so instead of buying new grey flex
>> can I legally use the old cable to wire my house lights and rings?
>
> You need 1.0 or 1.5mm^2 T&E for lighting circuits, and typically 2.5mm^2
> T&E for socket circuits...
>
> wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Cables
>
>
>
>> (I have already notified Herefordshire Building Control
>> that I'm rewiring some circuits.)
>
> Bet that surprised them!
>
>
>

sorry,

[Bill Wright]

george - dicegeorge wrote:

> sorry,
> i got the words back to front!

The different wires are colour coded. Try not to get them back to front.

Bill

[John Rumm]

So the question was "I have lots of flex, can I use that instead of cable?"

In which case that's easy:

No.

[F Murtz]

Dangerous advise, he might do it without realizing thr sarcasm.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 06:06:45 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

> So the question was "I have lots of flex, can I use that instead of
> cable?"
>
> In which case that's easy:
>
> No.

Enquiring minds ask "Do the regs actually state that?" I would expect an
installation done in flex to fail Building Control but it would be
interesting to know which bit of the regs it breaks. After all you could
use pyro, singles in conduit, SWA etc.

Assuming that the CSA's are correct for the circuit it's been used for(*)
and that it has the requisite layers of insulation (ie two) the only
other thing I can think flex will fail on is individual core colours.
Ideally every end would have a bootlace ferrule fitted where they connect
to an accessory.

(*) Taking into account the stranded rather than solid nature of the
conductor.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Bob Minchin]

Sarcasm?

[A.Lee]

Dave Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 06:06:45 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
>
> > So the question was "I have lots of flex, can I use that instead of
> > cable?"
> >
> > In which case that's easy:
> >
> > No.
>
> Enquiring minds ask "Do the regs actually state that?" I would expect an
> installation done in flex to fail Building Control but it would be
> interesting to know which bit of the regs it breaks. After all you could
> use pyro, singles in conduit, SWA etc.

"512.9.1
.... flexible cables used for fixed wiring shall be of the heavy duty
type unless the risk of damage .....is low .... or protection against
mechanical damage is provided.
BS7540 describes light, normal and hevy duty types."


So, I'd read that as flex is acceptable, if it is both well protected,
during installation and service, and of course meets the current
carrying capacity.

Why anyone would use it is another matter, flex is more expensive than
T+E.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

[John Rumm]

On 23/03/2013 10:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 06:06:45 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
>
>> So the question was "I have lots of flex, can I use that instead of
>> cable?"
>>
>> In which case that's easy:
>>
>> No.
>
> Enquiring minds ask "Do the regs actually state that?" I would expect an
> installation done in flex to fail Building Control but it would be
> interesting to know which bit of the regs it breaks. After all you could
> use pyro, singles in conduit, SWA etc.
>
> Assuming that the CSA's are correct for the circuit it's been used for(*)

That's the killer really... "old lighting cable[flex]" is not going to
be of adequate CSA in the first place. (and most flex you find is
common use is 1.5mm^2 or less - often less). So while you could
construct a lighting circuit out of it, you would have difficulty
meeting the needs of a general purpose power circuit unless you are
going for lots of small radials.

> and that it has the requisite layers of insulation (ie two) the only
> other thing I can think flex will fail on is individual core colours.

Since harmonisation, the core colours should be ok.

[george - dicegeorge]

On 23/03/13 12:54, John Rumm wrote:
> On 23/03/2013 10:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 06:06:45 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
>>
>>> So the question was "I have lots of flex, can I use that instead of
>>> cable?"
>>>
>>> In which case that's easy:
>>>
>>> No.
>>
>> Enquiring minds ask "Do the regs actually state that?" I would expect an
>> installation done in flex to fail Building Control but it would be
>> interesting to know which bit of the regs it breaks. After all you could
>> use pyro, singles in conduit, SWA etc.
>>
>> Assuming that the CSA's are correct for the circuit it's been used for(*)
>
> That's the killer really... "old lighting cable[flex]" is not going to
> be of adequate CSA in the first place. (and most flex you find is
> common use is 1.5mm^2 or less - often less). So while you could
> construct a lighting circuit out of it, you would have difficulty
> meeting the needs of a general purpose power circuit unless you are
> going for lots of small radials.
>
>> and that it has the requisite layers of insulation (ie two) the only
>> other thing I can think flex will fail on is individual core colours.
>
> Since harmonisation, the core colours should be ok.
>
>
>
>

The old flex i have is from stage lighting,
so its probably fat enough.

I dont think I'll bury any under the floorboards,
but maybe use it inthe attic for lights-
it's cheaper than grey cable because its free!
[g]

[Tim Watts]

On Saturday 23 March 2013 11:47 A.Lee wrote in uk.d-i-y:

> "512.9.1
> .... flexible cables used for fixed wiring shall be of the heavy duty
> type unless the risk of damage .....is low .... or protection against
> mechanical damage is provided.
> BS7540 describes light, normal and hevy duty types."

It's an interesting point. I have some GX53 lamp fittings on 3 bay ceilings
because they are low profile.

There is conduit for each one leading to the loft space. The GX53 fittings
have pre fitted flex.

I plan to extend the flex so that it will feed all the way through the
conduit into a joint box in the attic and into T+E. Flex is heavy 1.5mm2 to
match the fixed wiring.

I would rate the risk of damage as low (not an attic area you can walk in -
right near the eaves) but I'm glad you raised that point. I might complete
the conduit to joint box in flexi conduit - only a couple more feet.

I do have the 12V final leg on a cluster of bathroom lamps run in heavy flex
- only a couple of meters and again, no real risk of damage - clipped
halfway up the side of an 8" joist.


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

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[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 11:36:15 +0000, Bob Minchin
<bob.minc...@YOURHATntlworld.com> wrote:

>>> Stranded figure eight wire for the lights, but use proper solid copper
>>> core bell wire for the sockets.
>>> Tape-join a foot or so of the appropriate size twin and earth at each
>>> accessory, in case BC inspector comes.
>>>
>> Dangerous advise, he might do it without realizing thr sarcasm.
>Sarcasm?

It's been done.

[meow...@care2.com]

On Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:36:22 AM UTC, F Murtz wrote:
> Graham. wrote:

> > Stranded figure eight wire for the lights, but use proper solid copper
> > core bell wire for the sockets.
> > Tape-join a foot or so of the appropriate size twin and earth at each
> > accessory, in case BC inspector comes.

> Dangerous advise, he might do it without realizing thr sarcasm.

It would work on a 3A fuse with an rcd. But not a good plan!


NT

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 11:47:06 +0000, A.Lee wrote:

>> Enquiring minds ask "Do the regs actually state that?"
>

> "512.9.1
> ..... flexible cables used for fixed wiring shall be of the heavy duty

> type unless the risk of damage .....is low .... or protection against
> mechanical damage is provided.
> BS7540 describes light, normal and hevy duty types."
>
> So, I'd read that as flex is acceptable, if it is both well protected,
> during installation and service, and of course meets the current
> carrying capacity.

So a floor void, that requires access by the use of tool, would satisfy
the protection from damage?

Really being devils advocate to see how well the regs have been thought
through.

> Why anyone would use it is another matter, flex is more expensive than
> T+E.

Not if you have loads of 2nd user flex for free. B-)

I'd still not use flex for fixed wiring though, the argument with the
inspector just isn't worth it for a start.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[John Rumm]

On 24/03/2013 13:01, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 11:47:06 +0000, A.Lee wrote:
>
>>> Enquiring minds ask "Do the regs actually state that?"
>>
>> "512.9.1
>> ..... flexible cables used for fixed wiring shall be of the heavy duty
>> type unless the risk of damage .....is low .... or protection against
>> mechanical damage is provided.
>> BS7540 describes light, normal and hevy duty types."
>>
>> So, I'd read that as flex is acceptable, if it is both well protected,
>> during installation and service, and of course meets the current
>> carrying capacity.
>
> So a floor void, that requires access by the use of tool, would satisfy
> the protection from damage?
>
> Really being devils advocate to see how well the regs have been thought
> through.
>
>> Why anyone would use it is another matter, flex is more expensive than
>> T+E.
>
> Not if you have loads of 2nd user flex for free. B-)

But do you also have the required conduit etc and the time to install it
all as well to make the "free" flex usable?

> I'd still not use flex for fixed wiring though, the argument with the
> inspector just isn't worth it for a start.

The investment of time installing it will far exceed the cost of a reel
of cable.

[george - dicegeorge]

OK,
I will only use the old stage lighting flex for:
plugs to accessories,
hanging pendant lights,
and extension leads.

As long as they have a 13amp plug and fuse
is it OK to clip extension leads to roof beams,
and to run them through walls and hidden under floorboards?
[g]

[Peter Crosland]

On 22/03/2013 22:26, george - dicegeorge wrote:

You cannot be serious! Quite apart the Building control aspect your
insurance company will not pay up if you have an electrical fire.

--
Regards Peter Crosland