Luton Airport fire: EV involved?

[Spike]

What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>

--
Spike

[Tim+]

Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>
> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>

What’s the betting every Tom, Dick and Harry jump to the same unlikely
(statistically) conclusion?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

[Adrian Caspersz]

On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>
> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>

I have an idea for a new power station design, based around water,
turbines and generators.

Ye drive discarded EVs in the door, set light to them, and heat the
water. For additional benefit, eBikes, eCigs, iPhones.....



On the other hand, Toyota is now pushing an idea burning Ammonia as fuel.

The future is chemical. Burn baby, burn ....



--
Adrian C

[Tim Lamb]

In message <kon3db...@mid.individual.net>, Spike
<aero....@btinternet.invalid> writes

>
>What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>

Umm. I have parked there but can't remember which floor had the battery
chargers.
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Colin Bignell]

On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>

> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>

The Fire Brigade have said they think it started in a diesel car.

--
Colin Bignell

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>

> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>

I'm not betting against you, for sure. The other massively probable
scenario given the current events in Israel, and the ethnic populations
of Luton, is a religion of peace warrior doing a bit of sympathetic mayhem.

It's amazing how big the racist anti semitic non white part of Britain
actually is.

--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”

― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

[charles]

In article <kon3db...@mid.individual.net>,
Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:

> What‘s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of itŒ

> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>

Even if it wasn't, that will be the report

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Tim+]

Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>
> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>

“ Andy Hopkinson, Bedfordshire's chief fire officer, said the service had
"no intelligence than to suggest it was anything other than an accidental
fire".
He said it was thought the fire started with a diesel car, and then spread
through the car park.”

[Colin Bignell]

On 11/10/2023 09:37, Tim+ wrote:
> Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>
>
> What’s the betting every Tom, Dick and Harry jump to the same unlikely
> (statistically) conclusion?

The statistical probability Seems to depend upon whose report you read.
According to this article, in the USA, the National Fire Protection
Association say that the fire risk for electric vehicles is about three
times that of petrol cars, while the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration found that the rate of fires in electric vehicle was
significantly lower than in petrol vehicles. The UK DfT say that the
risks from EVs are comparable to petrol and diesel vehicles and the
German ADAC say that EVs are about four times more likely to catch fire
than petrol cars.

https://energy5.com/electric-cars-catch-fire-more-often-than-gasoline-cars

The one thing that does seem to be agreed upon is that an EV fire is
more difficult to fight.

--
Colin Bignell

[The Natural Philosopher]

It all depends on your definition of 'fire' how many of us have had
shorts on *old* cars that have caused smoke to rise, and needed to be
switched off and towed home? Quite a few. EVS are new. And when an EV
*battery* goes up its not a 'switch off and tow home' - it.s a
\*completely destroyed car.*

As you know I used to fly (and occasionally still do) model planes with
lithium batteries. Back in the noughties lithium battery fires were very
common and one contributor to a forum posted pictures of his burnt out
car. He had left a battery - not connected at all - on the passenger
seat of his car in a parking lot on a cloudless California day.

The presumption was that the battery had swelled in the heat until it
shorted internally.

Its not the *frequency* of EV fires, its the *severity*. usually in a
car park more than one car alone is destroyed, hoses have been
destroyed, half a dozen buses, a freight ship sunk and possibly a car
park destroyed in this case.
I do not believe that a diesel car alone could have done as much damage
as this has done.

Unless it was wired to so do,

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

[Andy Bennett]

On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>

> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>

Another load of invested interest scaremongering. Same as the boat that
caught fire - all 350 EV's on board were intact.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Says who? Who has dived the wreck to discover this?

I cant remember a car ferry burning to the point of sinking before BEVs.
Your naivete in believing what you are fed by an establishment who
maintain their power essentially by lying to you, is rather touching.


--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <ug5rtp$1ovlu$3...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> writes

>On 11/10/2023 10:46, Andy Bennett wrote:
>> On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>>>
>>> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>>
>> Another load of invested interest scaremongering. Same as the boat
>>that caught fire - all 350 EV's on board were intact.
>
>Says who? Who has dived the wreck to discover this?
>
>I cant remember a car ferry burning to the point of sinking before BEVs.
>Your naivete in believing what you are fed by an establishment who
>maintain their power essentially by lying to you, is rather touching.

Level 2 has the electric vehicle parking freebies and charge points.

https://www.london-luton.co.uk/parking/electric-vehicle-chargin
>
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Robin]

On 11/10/2023 10:18, Colin Bignell wrote:

I recommend full PPE before applying a bucket of sand on that article.
First, it gives no details of or references to any of its sources.

Second, it from a source in the business of selling EV charging.

Third, it refers in the section you quoted to a source (the NHTSA) that,
as I posted recently, others report doesn't collect stats on fires as
such. It "collects data on crashes but says that only about 5 percent
of fires are crash-related"


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a40163966/cars-catching-fire-new-york-times-real-statistics/


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Spike]

Diesel is kinda hard to light.

Might be a tool battery in the van.

--
Spike

[John Rumm]

On 11/10/2023 09:37, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>>
>> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>
>
> I have an idea for a new power station design, based around water,
> turbines and generators.
>
> Ye drive discarded EVs in the door, set light to them, and heat the
> water. For additional benefit, eBikes, eCigs, iPhones.....
>
>
>
> On the other hand, Toyota is now pushing an idea burning Ammonia as fuel.

Prolly because it is an easier way to handle hydrogen based fuel.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Colin Bignell]

On 11/10/2023 12:20, Spike wrote:
> Colin Bignell <c...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>>>
>>> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>>
>>
>> The Fire Brigade have said they think it started in a diesel car.
>
> Diesel is kinda hard to light.

My thought too, but I expect we will hear more about it in due time.

> Might be a tool battery in the van.


--

Colin Bignell

[Andy Burns]

John Rumm wrote:

> Adrian Caspersz wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, Toyota is now pushing an idea burning Ammonia as fuel.
>
> Prolly because it is an easier way to handle hydrogen based fuel.

low energy density compared to petrol though, I seem to remember it
being proposed for ships.

[Colin Bignell]

There is also this report, from a service for UK fleet managers:

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manufacturer-news/2020/11/27/vehicle-fire-data-suggests-higher-incident-rate-for-evs

'Data obtained through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request revealed
that in 2019 the London Fire Brigade dealt with 54 electric vehicle
fires compared with 1,898 petrol and diesel fires.

Vehicle registration numbers from the Department for Transport (DfT)
show there are 50,000-plus plug-in cars licensed in the capital out of a
total 4.63 million licensed cars.

Looking at the London Fire Brigade data, that would suggest an incident
rate of 0.04% for petrol and diesel car fires, while the rate for
plug-in vehicle is more than double at 0.1%.'

That was from 2020. According to the Mail Online, the LBF had dealt with
143 EV fires in 2023, as at 22nd July:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12325611/Fire-crews-fears-electric-car-blazes-having-double-crews-sent-deal-batteries-cause-rocket-like-infernos.html

That projects to about five times the number in a year, compared to
2019. While that might reflect the growth in numbers of EVs, it does not
suggest any improvement in the relative probability of fires.

--
Colin Bignell

[Robin]

On 11/10/2023 12:45, Colin Bignell wrote:
>
> That was from 2020. According to the Mail Online, the LBF had dealt with
> 143 EV fires in 2023, as at 22nd July:
>
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12325611/Fire-crews-fears-electric-car-blazes-having-double-crews-sent-deal-batteries-cause-rocket-like-infernos.html
>
> That projects to about five times the number in a year, compared to
> 2019. While that might reflect the growth in numbers of EVs, it does not
> suggest any improvement in the relative probability of fires.

Apples and fruit alert. The 143 is for "electrically-powered vehicles
and hybrids". And follows the quote from the LFB that "E-bikes and
e-scooters are becoming increasingly popular and the risk of significant
fires is rising too." So I suspect it is comparable with figures for
electric /cars/. And as a London resident I can confirm there's a
fuckofalot[1] more e-bikes/scooters around.

[1] always felt this unit should be part of the FFF system

[Robin]

sorry - shd be "not comparable...."

[Colin Bignell]

On 11/10/2023 10:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 10:18, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 11/10/2023 09:37, Tim+ wrote:
>>> Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>>>
>>>
>>> What’s the betting every Tom, Dick and Harry jump to the same unlikely
>>> (statistically) conclusion?
>>
>> The statistical probability Seems to depend upon whose report you
>> read. According to this article, in the USA, the National Fire
>> Protection Association say that the fire risk for electric vehicles is
>> about three times that of petrol cars, while the National Highway
>> Traffic Safety Administration found that the rate of fires in electric
>> vehicle was significantly lower than in petrol vehicles. The UK DfT
>> say that the risks from EVs are comparable to petrol and diesel
>> vehicles and the German ADAC say that EVs are about four times more
>> likely to catch fire than petrol cars.
>>
>> https://energy5.com/electric-cars-catch-fire-more-often-than-gasoline-cars
>>
>> The one thing that does seem to be agreed upon is that an EV fire is
>> more difficult to fight.
>>
> It all depends on your definition of 'fire' how many of us have had
> shorts on *old* cars that have caused smoke to rise, and needed to be
> switched off and towed home?

I had one that dumped not engine oil onto my knee. An electrical fault
behind the dashboard melted a plastic pipe that connected to the oil
pressure gauge. No transponders in those days, just a direct connection
to the gauge.

Quite a few. EVS are new. And when an EV
> *battery* goes up its not a 'switch off and tow home' - it.s a
> \*completely destroyed car.*
>
> As you know I used to fly (and occasionally still do) model planes with
> lithium batteries. Back in the noughties lithium battery fires were very
> common and one contributor to a forum posted pictures of his burnt out
> car. He had left a battery - not connected at all - on the passenger
> seat of  his car in a parking lot on a cloudless California day.
>
> The presumption was that the battery had swelled in the heat until it
> shorted internally.
>
> Its not the *frequency* of EV fires, its the *severity*.  usually in a
> car park more than one car alone is destroyed, hoses have been
> destroyed, half a dozen buses, a freight ship sunk and possibly a car
> park destroyed in this case.
> I do not believe that a diesel car alone could have done as much damage
> as this has done.
>
> Unless it was wired to so do,
>

The Leighton Buzzard Fire Officer has now said that, although the fire
started in a diesel vehicle, a number of electric vehicles were involved
quite early on. The fact that the cars were parked very close together
also contributed to the rate of spread of the fire.

--
Colin Bignell

[Colin Bignell]

On 11/10/2023 13:22, Robin wrote:

Which doesn't change the figures given in the Fleet Manager report, of
EVs having a 0.1% rate of fives, compared to 0.04% for ICE vehicles.


--
Colin Bignell

[Michael Chare]

On 11/10/2023 12:20, Spike wrote:

> Colin Bignell <c...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>>>
>>> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>>
>>
>> The Fire Brigade have said they think it started in a diesel car.
>
> Diesel is kinda hard to light.
>

I have not heard of a house with an oil boiler going bang like ones with
gas boilers. If there is a leak you can see it unlike gas.

--
Michael Chare

[Theo]

Noting that some 'plug in vehicles' are also petrol or (rarely) diesel cars,
since PHEVs are both. How do we tell whether their fires are due to the
electrics or the petrol side of things?

Theo

[jim.gm4dhj]

On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>

> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>

due to evs they will need more than 15m fire resistance now...

[Colin Bignell]

Short of catastrophic accident damage spreading fuel about, a fire in an
ICE vehicle is mostly likely to be the result of an electrical fault.

However, there are about two fully electric vehicles for every one
hybrid in the UK. Applying that to the 54 fires, that would imply that
36 fully electric vehicles caught fire. Even making the improbable
assumption that none of the hybrids caught fire due to a fault in their
electric side, that still gives EVs a fire rate of around 0.07% compared
to the 0.04% for ICE vehicles.

--
Colin Bignell

[Paul]

On 10/11/2023 9:08 AM, charles wrote:
> In article <kon3db...@mid.individual.net>,
> Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>
>> What‘s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of itŒ
>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>
> Even if it wasn't, that will be the report
>

"Andy Hopkinson, Bedfordshire's chief fire officer, said the service
had "no intelligence than to suggest it was anything other than an accidental fire".

He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" <=== some kinda organic juice
car and then spread through the building.

The car park did not appear to have sprinklers, <=== who needs 'em
according to Mr Hopkinson..."

https://lutonrising.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/aerial-night.jpg

*******

Car fires seem to burn readily.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307422/Stansted-Airport-20-families-cars-gutted-car-park-blaze.html#ixzz1IWI6Mg7I

Link obtained from...

https://d39d3mj7qio96p.cloudfront.net/media/documents/SR255_Car_parks_-_Fires_involving_modern_cars_and_stacking_systems.pdf

Sprinklers seem to be a relative modern invention.

This is why you put plastic bumpers on cars, as a Yule Log.

The two fires I've seen personally, seemed in no danger of spreading.
Not enough wind I guess. One fire was particularly festive - the flames
were the same colour as the setting sun. That was a Caddy that was burning.
The owner popped the bonnet, so there would be a bigger fire :-) That's
why there is soot on the ceiling of the car park.

They call that thing in your car, a "fire wall". Rather
disingenuous when you think about it. There are plenty of
other routes for mischief, besides the obvious.

When people were driving away from forest fires here this year,
the damage to the vehicles included melted headlight covers, and
melted side mirror housings. This is how you discover where the
plastics are :-) No word on whether the bumpers were affected.

The tyres also represent a fuel load.

Paul

[JNugent]

On 11/10/2023 09:07 am, Spike wrote:
>
> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>

An interesting perspective.

There'll be something in it.

[JNugent]

On 11/10/2023 03:54 pm, Paul wrote:
> On 10/11/2023 9:08 AM, charles wrote:
>> In article <kon3db...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> What‘s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of itŒ
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>
>> Even if it wasn't, that will be the report
>>
>
> "Andy Hopkinson, Bedfordshire's chief fire officer, said the service
> had "no intelligence than to suggest it was anything other than an accidental fire".
>
> He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" <=== some kinda organic juice

> car and then spread through the building. [ ... ]

Diesel is not easy to ignite.

Ever tried it?

[JNugent]

Are diesel and petrol cars at the same risk of catching fire?

It seems unlikely.

Well, short of pouring lighter fuel onto the upholstery and throwing in
a lit match.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <konres...@mid.individual.net>, JNugent
<jnu...@mail.com> writes

Perhaps something battery powered in a boot over the fuel tank?

--
Tim Lamb

[Colin Bignell]

I've not found a breakdown for that. However, as the primary causes of
car fires are electrical faults, accidents and overheating, I'm not sure
that there would be any difference in the risk of catching fire.
However, the fuel could make a difference to how the fire progresses.

--
Colin Bignell

[Colin Bignell]

On 11/10/2023 15:54, Paul wrote:
> On 10/11/2023 9:08 AM, charles wrote:
>> In article <kon3db...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> What‘s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of itŒ
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>
>> Even if it wasn't, that will be the report
>>
>
> "Andy Hopkinson, Bedfordshire's chief fire officer, said the service
> had "no intelligence than to suggest it was anything other than an accidental fire".
>
> He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" <=== some kinda organic juice
> car and then spread through the building.
>
> The car park did not appear to have sprinklers, <=== who needs 'em
> according to Mr Hopkinson..."
>
> https://lutonrising.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/aerial-night.jpg
>
> *******
>
> Car fires seem to burn readily.
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307422/Stansted-Airport-20-families-cars-gutted-car-park-blaze.html#ixzz1IWI6Mg7I
>
> Link obtained from...
>
> https://d39d3mj7qio96p.cloudfront.net/media/documents/SR255_Car_parks_-_Fires_involving_modern_cars_and_stacking_systems.pdf
>
> Sprinklers seem to be a relative modern invention.

They date from 1812, unless you count the one Leonardo da Vinci built.

>
> This is why you put plastic bumpers on cars, as a Yule Log.
>
> The two fires I've seen personally, seemed in no danger of spreading.
> Not enough wind I guess. One fire was particularly festive - the flames
> were the same colour as the setting sun. That was a Caddy that was burning.
> The owner popped the bonnet, so there would be a bigger fire :-) That's
> why there is soot on the ceiling of the car park.
>
> They call that thing in your car, a "fire wall". Rather
> disingenuous when you think about it. There are plenty of
> other routes for mischief, besides the obvious.
>
> When people were driving away from forest fires here this year,
> the damage to the vehicles included melted headlight covers, and
> melted side mirror housings. This is how you discover where the
> plastics are :-) No word on whether the bumpers were affected.
>
> The tyres also represent a fuel load.
>
> Paul

--
Colin Bignell

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/10/2023 12:20, Spike wrote:

latest i heard it was a 'diesel hybrid' :-)

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

[N_Cook]

Lithium batteries have their own oxygen supply so use of foam as in
petrol/diesel/kerosene fires is useless. Also useless are the dry risers
,hence the policy of let them burn (no other choice) , hence destruction
of the roof of this carpark.
The Andover UK, Ocado distribution warehouse fire started with just one
lithium cell in one robot, before setting off the others. Note they
termed that an "electrical fault" .
Presumably the recent Oz mega-battery national grid back-up
fire was down to one cell , makes probabilities rather meaningles as a
chain is only as strong as its weakest link


--
Global sea level rise to 2100 from curve-fitted existing altimetry data
<http://diverse.4mg.com/slr.htm>

[The Natural Philosopher]

Ive been having an other go at getting the Aga operational again. I had
a cast iron burner full of diesel soaked charcoal and I decided to burn
it off with a blowlamp. And THBEN scrape it. The diesel wouldn't stay
alight tho. The whole burner design in an aga is about getting diesel
vapour to burn, and it's quite difficult.


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

[alan_m]

On 11/10/2023 12:45, Colin Bignell wrote:

> 'Data obtained through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request revealed
> that in 2019 the London Fire Brigade dealt with 54 electric vehicle
> fires compared with 1,898 petrol and diesel fires.

How many torched as a result of crime - joyriding etc.?

Unless the figure is broken down to exclude deliberate destruction of
the vehicle those figures may be skewed for what is being discussed here.

26,000 vehicles were reported stolen in London last year



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
2v

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/10/2023 15:59, JNugent wrote:

not far off. since as others have pointed put, the possibility of an
electrical short which is the main cause, is similar. But petrol cars go
bang better when the tanks explode

> It seems unlikely.
>
> Well, short of pouring lighter fuel onto the upholstery and throwing in
> a lit match.

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Overheating seldom causes fires.
Catastrophiic engine failure can though


--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

[alan_m]

On 11/10/2023 17:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> not far off. since as others have pointed put, the possibility of an
> electrical short which is the main cause, is similar. But petrol cars go
> bang better when the tanks explode

As shown in every film or TV program when a car crashes :) You rarely
see the explosive charges set by the special effects team :)

Wasn't it the Italian Job(???) where someone pinched the engine from a
car between when it was seen driving and a minute later being pushed
over the cliff?

[Colin Bignell]

On 11/10/2023 17:42, alan_m wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 12:45, Colin Bignell wrote:
>
>> 'Data obtained through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request revealed
>> that in 2019 the London Fire Brigade dealt with 54 electric vehicle
>> fires compared with 1,898 petrol and diesel fires.
>
> How many torched as a result of crime - joyriding etc.?

Not available for London in particular, but national figures for 2019
show around 46% of car fires were started deliberately.

> Unless the figure is broken down to exclude deliberate destruction of
> the vehicle those figures may be skewed for what is being discussed here.

Only if you are arguing that electric cars are either more or less
likely than ICE cars to be torched after being stolen.

>
> 26,000 vehicles were reported stolen in London last year
>
>
>

--

Colin Bignell

[alan_m]

On 11/10/2023 19:03, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 17:42, alan_m wrote:
>> On 11/10/2023 12:45, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>
>>> 'Data obtained through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request
>>> revealed that in 2019 the London Fire Brigade dealt with 54 electric
>>> vehicle fires compared with 1,898 petrol and diesel fires.
>>
>> How many torched as a result of crime - joyriding etc.?
>
> Not available for London in particular, but national figures for 2019
> show around 46% of car fires were started deliberately.

Similar to what I found for 2002, around 38,000 set alight after being
stolen and another 17,000 derelict set on fire after being dumped.
Approx 100,000 cars reported stolen.

>
>> Unless the figure is broken down to exclude deliberate destruction of
>> the vehicle those figures may be skewed for what is being discussed here.
>
> Only if you are arguing that electric cars are either more or less
> likely than ICE cars to be torched after being stolen.
>

More the case of which type of car is more likely to be stolen for
joyriding and then set fire? A modern EV or an older ICE vehicle?
An expensive car is more likely to be stolen for resale somewhere.

[Colin Bignell]

However, the question under consideration is cars that are involved in
fires. From the figures I gave, the probability of that being an EV is
two and a half times as high as it being an ICE car. So, even if it is
assumed that none of the EV fires were deliberate and 46% of the ICE
cars were, EVs still come out as more likely to be involved in a fire.



--
Colin Bignell

[Paul]

We have had many city transit buses leak fuel. I've seen
a trail on the road, where the driver didn't know it
was leaking, and the entire tank-load ends up on the road.
And the bus is hauled back to depot, by their huge hauler
(they have two haulers, for stereo).

Well, for perhaps two of those buses, the leak was near
the hot engine, the diesel vehicle caught fire. I don't know if
those could be repaired and returned to service. The engines
in those buses seem to run pretty hot, because on some units,
you can smell something like "hot hoses" smell. I don't think
typical automotive diesels, run quite as hot.

The provided PDF, is worth reading, if you care about these fires.
It suggests some of the fire scenes are not arson, but
the cause of the fire (on an ICE car) might be electrical rather
than fuel.

https://d39d3mj7qio96p.cloudfront.net/media/documents/SR255_Car_parks_-_Fires_involving_modern_cars_and_stacking_systems.pdf

If you need "HOT" in a modern car, point your IR thermometer
at the cat. It's meant to run hot. That's the intended operating point.
Under failure conditions, it can glow almost white hot, and is
why there are doubled-up metal shields (which rust off), underneath
that fine floor carpeting.

Paul

[ajh]

Diesel ignites readily when sprayed onto something hot like an exhaust
manifold, as does iso46 hydraulic oil and I have reason to know that.
Whereas spilling petrol onto a hot exhaust does not. This is why petrol
resists burning in a SI engine until the spark initiates it.

[Tim+]

The fuel is probably not relevant (except as fuel for combustion rather
than the source of a fire). Most vehicle fires are probably electrical.

Even petrol isn’t that easy to ignite. You can drop a lighted cigarette
into it and it won’t ignite. Hollywood get it wrong all the time.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

[ajh]

On 11/10/2023 21:10, Tim+ wrote:
> Even petrol isn’t that easy to ignite. You can drop a lighted cigarette
> into it and it won’t ignite. Hollywood get it wrong all the time.

Yes, not having lit cigarettes around I have not tried that but as long
as no flames are about petrol will not burst into flames if dripped onto
hot charcoal, get this wrong and the vapour cloud can be spectacular,
presumably how a daisy cutter bomb works.

[Paul]

Look at this fire. It's an open field fire. Burning multiple vehicles.
And it is years back. How many BEVs existed when this picture was taken.
Zero.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307422/Stansted-Airport-20-families-cars-gutted-car-park-blaze.html#ixzz1IWI6Mg7I

Read this doc. It explains that there is an increased incidence of
"spreading fires", where the fire moves from one vehicle to another.
And this means the vehicles themselves, have too much fuel load
(or perhaps exposure) to behave themselves in a fire.

https://d39d3mj7qio96p.cloudfront.net/media/documents/SR255_Car_parks_-_Fires_involving_modern_cars_and_stacking_systems.pdf

Parking structures were built without sprinklers, because the
notion of a fire that spreads was silly. When I watched the
Cadillac burn at the mall here (no sprinkler system), the fire
wasn't even remotely close to adjacent vehicles. And it didn't
burn hot enough or big enough, to damage structural steel. Perhaps that
is changing.

And maybe this is why around five transport ships by now,
have burned so nicely (we know of two that sank). Maybe
the vehicles on board, and their fire design, aided the event.

*******

Looking at this picture again, isn't this fire on top, on the roof ?
That's a lot of fire, for an open field fire. Look at the smoke
pattern. Doesn't look windy. When the Caddy burned, the fire looked
nothing like that.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/FF62/production/_131387356_image001.jpg

I thought the fire was inside. If it was outside like that, a ladder
truck with a deluge cannon could have knocked that down. They even
used that here, for a backyard fire in my neighbourhood. They
brought a ladder truck. A truck fitted with nice bright lights,
and they flooded the back yard where the small fire was. There
weren't even any firemen standing around the actual fire (which is weird).
They blasted the open fire, from above. For some reason, we have a lot
of ladder trucks here, and the firemen get their jollies from them.
(They use ladder trucks on the smallest of fires.)

A place like an airport, will have proper water supplies and mains
hookups for this, so the fire people should have a good supply.

Paul

[charles]

In article
<1282176573.718747599.981...@news.individual.net>,

Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JNugent <jnu...@mail.com> wrote:
> > On 11/10/2023 03:54 pm, Paul wrote:
> >> On 10/11/2023 9:08 AM, charles wrote:
> >>> In article <kon3db...@mid.individual.net>, Spike
> >>> <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
> >>>

> >>>> What s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of itš

> >>>
> >>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
> >>>
> >>> Even if it wasn't, that will be the report
> >>>
> >>
> >> "Andy Hopkinson, Bedfordshire's chief fire officer, said the service
> >> had "no intelligence than to suggest it was anything other than an
> >> accidental fire".
> >>
> >> He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" <===
> >> some kinda organic juice car and then spread through the building. [
> >> ... ]
> >
> > Diesel is not easy to ignite.

> The fuel is probably not relevant (except as fuel for combustion rather
> than the source of a fire). Most vehicle fires are probably electrical.

My wife's cas fire was almost certainly petrol leaking from the carb/fuel
line onto a hot exhaust.

> Even petrol isn‘t that easy to ignite. You can drop a lighted cigarette
> into it and it won‘t ignite. Hollywood get it wrong all the time.

> Tim

> -- Ple

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Tim+]

charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <1282176573.718747599.981...@news.individual.net>,
> Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> JNugent <jnu...@mail.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2023 03:54 pm, Paul wrote:
>>>> On 10/11/2023 9:08 AM, charles wrote:
>>>>> In article <kon3db...@mid.individual.net>, Spike
>>>>> <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of itš
>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if it wasn't, that will be the report
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Andy Hopkinson, Bedfordshire's chief fire officer, said the service
>>>> had "no intelligence than to suggest it was anything other than an
>>>> accidental fire".
>>>>
>>>> He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" <===
>>>> some kinda organic juice car and then spread through the building. [
>>>> ... ]
>>>
>>> Diesel is not easy to ignite.
>
>> The fuel is probably not relevant (except as fuel for combustion rather
>> than the source of a fire). Most vehicle fires are probably electrical.
>
> My wife's cas fire was almost certainly petrol leaking from the carb/fuel
> line onto a hot exhaust.

But without another source of ignition petrol won’t ignite under these
conditions. Brake fluid will (or used to). Formulation may have changed.
An oil leak would be more inclined to burst into flames on a hot exhaust.

[Cursitor Doom]

On 11 Oct 2023 08:07:07 GMT, Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid>
wrote:

>
>What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>

They'll try to cover that up, but it's inescapable from the degree of
damage caused that EV(s) are culpable, even if the original car which
burst into flames turns out to be non-EV (pretty unlikely). If there
are EVs 'sprinkled throughout' that car park, they'll cause every car
around them to go up in flames in a sort of chain reaction. It's also
highly likely that the heavier weight of EVs made the building's
collapse far more likely, which is precisely what happened. We never
used to see car park conflagrations like this in the past when there
were no EVs. it's an entirely recent phenomenon. :(

[Robin]

I have never seen any suggestion that the Kings Dock fire (by the
Liverpool Echo Arena) was caused or exacerbated by EVs. The loss of
over 1,000 vehicles was attributed to the fire spreading by lateral and
vertical fire spread with running fuel fires.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Robin]

On 11/10/2023 21:26, Paul wrote:
> On 10/11/2023 9:06 AM, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>> On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>>>
>>> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>>
>> due to evs they will need more than 15m fire resistance now...
>
> Look at this fire. It's an open field fire. Burning multiple vehicles.
> And it is years back. How many BEVs existed when this picture was taken.
> Zero.
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307422/Stansted-Airport-20-families-cars-gutted-car-park-blaze.html#ixzz1IWI6Mg7I
>
> Read this doc. It explains that there is an increased incidence of
> "spreading fires", where the fire moves from one vehicle to another.
> And this means the vehicles themselves, have too much fuel load
> (or perhaps exposure) to behave themselves in a fire.
>
> https://d39d3mj7qio96p.cloudfront.net/media/documents/SR255_Car_parks_-_Fires_involving_modern_cars_and_stacking_systems.pdf
>
> Parking structures were built without sprinklers, because the
> notion of a fire that spreads was silly. When I watched the
> Cadillac burn at the mall here (no sprinkler system), the fire
> wasn't even remotely close to adjacent vehicles. And it didn't
> burn hot enough or big enough, to damage structural steel. Perhaps that
> is changing.
>

Report by the BRE for the UK government in 2010 recorded a change of
views on the likelihood of fires spreading in multi-storey car parks.
It concluded work once a severe fire started it would spread laterally
even to cars separated by an empty parking space. Down to things like
modern cars having more plastic including insulation, wiring and plastic
fuel tanks. It noted EVs were likely to become more common and bring new
fire risks but didn't base its conclusions on them.

[tim+]

Colin Bignell <c...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> Wrote in message:r
>. Even making the improbable assumption that none of the hybrids caught fire due to a fault in their electric side, that still gives EVs a fire rate of around 0.07% compared to the 0.04% for ICE vehicles.-- Colin Bignell

Hybrids are the worst, then ICE with full EVs the lowest risk.

https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/

Tim

[Paul]

There are some numbers for petrol here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

Paul

[Robin]

that was cited last week

On 02/10/2023 12:23, Robin wrote:
> On 02/10/2023 11:45, Frank wrote:
>
> <snip>>
>> Research by another firm, AutoinsuranceEZ, says battery electric
vehicles have just a .03% chance of igniting, compared to internal
combustion engine vehicle’s 1.5% chance. Hybrid electrics, which have
both a high voltage battery and an internal combustion engine, have a
3.4% likelihood of vehicle fires according to their study.'
>>
>
> You may find it credible that 1.5% of ICE cars catch fire every year.
I - and a good few others - didn't. Try asking yourself (a) how many
cars you see in an average day and (b) when you last saw one that was or
had been on fire.
>
> And lo, AutoinsuranceEZ's figures has been widely rubbished. They
cited a source that doesn't even collect stats on car fires.
>
>
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a40163966/cars-catching-fire-new-york-times-real-statistics/
>
> PS
> AutoinsuranceEZ aren't an insurer. They're in the business of
generating leads for insurers.

[alan_m]

On 11/10/2023 23:30, tim+ wrote:

They could again be comparing apples with oranges if there is no clue on
how they are analysing the data.

They state age of the car is a contributing factor and there is a lot
more very old ICE vehicles on the road and few old EVs so the number of
fires per 1000 NEW cars sold is somewhat of a meaningless figure if they
are not normalising the data to take into account the age of the vehicle
nor the number of each type on the road.

The fire hazard recalls for ICE vehicles were all for potential
electrical faults. Again the data is presented in a way to show that
there is a bigger problem with ICE. If 400,000 models of one ICE car
have been sold compared to 80,000 of one model of EV and then 400,000
beats 80,000. The data presented shows that there were near a equal
number car models recalled for ICE and the new electric technology.

I really don't know if the risk of a fire in a new EV or a fire in a new
ICE vehicle is higher, or if the ratio of risk changes by the time the
vehicle is tens years old but from reading the above link I'm still not
sure.

Further, if the fire figure for ICE in 'n' cars and the fire figure for
EVs is 'y' cars why is the figure for Hybrids much greater than n+y? Why
no data into which part failed? Could it be that the owners of Hybrids
are the ones who purchased for the reasons of battery range limitations
and are doing very high mileage rather than those EVs just used for the
school run and going to the shops each day?

[Colin Bignell]

I am also wondering whether US based figures are useful for the UK. That
figure of 1.5% of ICE cars is very far from the 0.04% given by the UK
based Fleet Manager. As I said in my first post, the risk seems to
depend upon which report you read.

--
Colin Bignell

[Brian Gaff]

I think its possibly a wiring fault in a diesel car, but if there were any
EVs about I doubt if they would help put it out, let us say. One thing that
worries me about this is that it surely must have had CCv, and one would
also hope some form of fire prevention. I am given to believe that this was
the top of the building, I'd have thought that it would have had some of
those angled in sprinklers. At any rate, it does not seem that the car park
owners are blameless here, as we have all probably experienced a car fire,
and they can take hold very quickly given the amount of plastic flammable
materials in most cars these days.Its usually caused by a wiring loom
failure either made by chafing the cables or heat melting the insulation.
Even a normal 12v car battery can sink a heck of a lot of amps into an
almost dead short.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Spike" <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote in message
news:kon3db...@mid.individual.net...
>
> What's the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it.
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>
> --
> Spike

[Colin Bignell]

On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>

> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>

Looking at the video of the car that is thought to have started the
fire, the position of the vehicle relative to the direction arrow on the
floor and to other cars, suggests to me that it was being driven in or
out of the car park when it caught fire.

It is part way down this page:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67077996


--
Colin Bignell

[Tim Lamb]

In message <NYacnVZD35NOOrr4...@giganews.com>, Colin
Bignell <c...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> writes

From my reading of Jack Reacher novels, America doesn't seem to put the
same value on vehicle maintenance (MOTs etc.) as we do.
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Colin Bignell]

Jack Reacher Motor Mechanic seems to be a novel in the series that I
missed :-)

A quick Google search shows that, while some States do have annual
vehicle inspections, most do not. Even the ones that do seem to be less
stringent than even the earliest MOTs.


--
Colin Bignell

[Andy Bennett]

Diesel Range Rover Evoque apparently.

[Tim+]

Seems they’re pretty well known for it.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/hundreds-popular-land-rover-vehicles-23090042

[Spike]

Thanks for the link. It seems to raise as many questions as it answers. A
diesel-engine’d car leaving such a car park will have everything cold,
engine, exhaust, catalyser, etc, suggesting an electrical issue.

The flames appear to be external to the car structure, so it’s unlikely to
be a faulty lithium battery inside the vehicle.

Exactly what combination of circumstances brought this about remains a
mystery.

--
Spike

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/10/2023 10:33, Colin Bignell wrote:

The car was a PHEV Discovery, with its running lights on. The fire is
under the front passenger seat where the lithium battery is. It is not
parked.

No one wants to admit it, but it is the case.

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/10/2023 10:36, Tim Lamb wrote:

Many states have no tests at all . You can drive anything in any
condition provided its insured

[The Natural Philosopher]

Diesel plug in *hybrid* Discovery actually...with its battery on fire.

[ajh]

On 12/10/2023 11:28, Andy Bennett wrote:

> Diesel Range Rover Evoque apparently.

That doesn't surprise me. modern LRs seem to have a higher incidence of
fires than most

[The Natural Philosopher]

It is a plug in diesel hybrid Range Rover Discovery, with the lithium
battery under the passenger front floor on fire. Its running lights are
on, suggesting the car was abandoned whilst on its way oi or out of the
park.
I'd suggest selling shares in jaguar land rover and selling your
electric car before the insurance premium becomes unpayable..


--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

[Joe]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 08:28:11 +0100
alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 11/10/2023 23:30, tim+ wrote:
> > Colin Bignell <c...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> Wrote in message:r
> >> . Even making the improbable assumption that none of the hybrids
> >> caught fire due to a fault in their electric side, that still
> >> gives EVs a fire rate of around 0.07% compared to the 0.04% for
> >> ICE vehicles.-- Colin Bignell
> >
> > Hybrids are the worst, then ICE with full EVs the lowest risk.
> >
> > https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/
> >
>
> They could again be comparing apples with oranges if there is no clue
> on how they are analysing the data.
>
> They state age of the car is a contributing factor and there is a lot
> more very old ICE vehicles on the road and few old EVs so the number
> of fires per 1000 NEW cars sold is somewhat of a meaningless figure
> if they are not normalising the data to take into account the age of
> the vehicle nor the number of each type on the road.

Many older hybrids are the Prius, which did not originally have a
lithium battery.

>
> The fire hazard recalls for ICE vehicles were all for potential
> electrical faults. Again the data is presented in a way to show that
> there is a bigger problem with ICE. If 400,000 models of one ICE car
> have been sold compared to 80,000 of one model of EV and then 400,000
> beats 80,000. The data presented shows that there were near a equal
> number car models recalled for ICE and the new electric technology.
>

I recall a problem with tyres factory fitted to US GM cars (about 40
years ago, so ICE) which presumably had insufficient carbon in them, as
they did not discharge static from the car body, and caused a number of
engine fires.

--
Joe

[Spike]

Well spotted.

--
Spike

[Cursitor Doom]

On 12 Oct 2023 10:47:23 GMT, Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid>
wrote:

Actually, that's the precisely the 'finger print' of a lithium battery
going up. Flames get shot out sideways which makes it very effective
at spreading the fire to neighbouring vehicles.

>
>Exactly what combination of circumstances brought this about remains a
>mystery.

They'll do their best to cover it up, but it looks increasingly like
it was a lithium ignition.
If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that EVs need to be
confined to ground floors only in multi-story car parks, so:

The Firemen can access them more readily and,

Their increased weight won't be able to collapse onto lower floors in
the event of a catastrophic fire.

[Colin Bignell]

Putting them on the ground floor would seem to be a good way to ensure
that the entire car park is doomed when one does catch fire. No way out
for other vehicles and the fire can affect support columns where they
are carrying the greatest load.


--
Colin Bignell

[The Natural Philosopher]

Not me. There was good thread on WUWT where people gradually pinned it down.
Even the fire colour and lack of much smoke is consistent with a LIPO
battery.

It is not good news for BEV enthusiasts. Or their insurance policies. Or
Jaguar Land Rover. Or people investing in 'mega factories'.

It might be the Green's 'Chernobyl' moment where public enthusiasm
vanishes overnight.

Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.

--
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/10/2023 12:44, Cursitor Doom wrote:

confined to open top floors only in multi-story car parks, so:
The Firemen can access them more readily by spraying the roof
and,
Their increased flammability won't be able to collapse upper floors
above them in

the event of a catastrophic fire.

Hint: heat rises.

--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

[The Natural Philosopher]

+1.
Better to give them their own effin expensive isolated park
Best of all ban the fucking things from public car parks

--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

[Paul]

https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/motoring-news/land-rover-issues-recall-for-discovery-and-range-rover-evoque/news-story/1c42f441755a7aff7e2a29d82f1c11de

"The recall notice says an electrical overload in the 48-volt battery
could cause the failure of a transistor, which in turn may lead to a short in the system.

The notice says: “Vehicle occupants may notice a burning smell and/or smoke from the
DC/DC converter vent into the passenger compartment. If there is sufficient oxygen,
a vehicle fire may occur, which may cause injury or death of vehicle occupants or
other road users.”

Paul

[Joe]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:00:27 +0100

I recall saying to someone, during one of the H&S fusses many years
ago, that if anyone suggested today that an inflammable and potentially
explosive gas containing carbon monoxide should be piped into most
homes in the land to provide heat and light, they would be laughed at.

And yet, we're doing much the same now with lithium...

--
Joe

[Cursitor Doom]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 13:00:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Nope. The green juggernaut will remain on track. They've already lied
by suggesting it was a diesel fire and they'll stick with that and if
anyone suggests otherwise, they'll just turn up the volume of
propaganda - to deafening levels if necessary. That's the way they
work.

[JNugent]

On 11/10/2023 04:43 pm, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <konres...@mid.individual.net>, JNugent
> <jnu...@mail.com> writes
>> On 11/10/2023 03:54 pm, Paul wrote:
>>> On 10/11/2023 9:08 AM, charles wrote:
>>>> In article <kon3db...@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>     Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What‘s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of itŒ
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>>>
>>>> Even if it wasn't, that will be the report
>>>>
>>>  "Andy Hopkinson, Bedfordshire's chief fire officer, said the service
>>>   had "no intelligence than to suggest it was anything other than an
>>> accidental fire".
>>>    He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" <===
>>> some kinda organic juice
>>>   car and then spread through the building. [ ... ]
>>
>> Diesel is not easy to ignite.
>>
>> Ever tried it?
>
> Perhaps something battery powered in a boot over the fuel tank?

You demonstrate very well that in order to construct a scenario where a
diesel vehicle is at the heart of the incident, contrived conditions
must be posited!

[JNugent]

On 11/10/2023 05:31 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 12:20, Spike wrote:
>> Colin Bignell <c...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2023 09:07, Spike wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Fire Brigade have said they think it started in a diesel car.
>>
>> Diesel is kinda hard to light.
>>
>> Might be a tool battery in the van.
>>
> latest i heard it was a 'diesel hybrid' :-)

My son used to have a Prius.

*Are* there any diesel/battery hybrids?

[JNugent]

On 11/10/2023 05:42 pm, alan_m wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 12:45, Colin Bignell wrote:
>
>> 'Data obtained through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request revealed
>> that in 2019 the London Fire Brigade dealt with 54 electric vehicle
>> fires compared with 1,898 petrol and diesel fires.

Considering the small proportion of vehicles which are EVs (and their
relative average young age compared to the average age of normal
vehicles), that 54 is a LOT.

> How many torched as a result of crime - joyriding etc.?
> Unless the figure is broken down to exclude deliberate destruction of
> the vehicle those figures may be skewed for what is being discussed here.
> 26,000 vehicles were reported stolen in London last year

[JNugent]

On 11/10/2023 05:46 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 17:22, Colin Bignell wrote:
>> On 11/10/2023 15:59, JNugent wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2023 10:18 am, Colin Bignell wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/2023 09:37, Tim+ wrote:

>>>>> Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it…
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> What’s the betting every Tom, Dick and Harry jump to the same unlikely
>>>>> (statistically) conclusion?
>>>>
>>>> The statistical probability Seems to depend upon whose report you
>>>> read. According to this article, in the USA, the National Fire
>>>> Protection Association say that the fire risk for electric vehicles
>>>> is about three times that of petrol cars, while the National Highway
>>>> Traffic Safety Administration found that the rate of fires in
>>>> electric vehicle was significantly lower than in petrol vehicles.
>>>> The UK DfT say that the risks from EVs are comparable to petrol and
>>>> diesel vehicles and the German ADAC say that EVs are about four
>>>> times more likely to catch fire than petrol cars.
>>>>
>>>> https://energy5.com/electric-cars-catch-fire-more-often-than-gasoline-cars
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The one thing that does seem to be agreed upon is that an EV fire is
>>>> more difficult to fight.
>>>
>>> Are diesel and petrol cars at the same risk of catching fire?
>>>
>>> It seems unlikely.
>>>
>>> Well, short of pouring lighter fuel onto the upholstery and throwing
>>> in a lit match.
>>
>> I've not found a breakdown for that. However, as the primary causes of
>> car fires are electrical faults, accidents and overheating, I'm not
>> sure that there would be any difference in the risk of catching fire.
>> However, the fuel could make a difference to how the fire progresses.
>>
> Overheating seldom causes fires.
> Catastrophiic engine failure can though

A garage once failed to refit the jubilee clip on the fuel hose to the
carburettor on an Austin I owned. It leaked out at least a couple of
gallons on a longish trip - and still didn't catch fire. But I was lucky
that I was on my own. My newborn son could have been strapped in in the
rear seat of that three door car.

[JNugent]

On 11/10/2023 08:30 pm, charles wrote:
> In article
> <1282176573.718747599.981...@news.individual.net>,
> Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> JNugent <jnu...@mail.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2023 03:54 pm, Paul wrote:
>>>> On 10/11/2023 9:08 AM, charles wrote:

>>>>> In article <kon3db...@mid.individual.net>, Spike
>>>>> <aero....@btinternet.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of itš

>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if it wasn't, that will be the report
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Andy Hopkinson, Bedfordshire's chief fire officer, said the service
>>>> had "no intelligence than to suggest it was anything other than an
>>>> accidental fire".
>>>>
>>>> He said it was thought the fire started in "diesel-powered" <===
>>>> some kinda organic juice car and then spread through the building. [
>>>> ... ]
>>>
>>> Diesel is not easy to ignite.
>

>> The fuel is probably not relevant (except as fuel for combustion rather
>> than the source of a fire). Most vehicle fires are probably electrical.
>
> My wife's cas fire was almost certainly petrol leaking from the carb/fuel
> line onto a hot exhaust.

I narrowly escaped the same thing when I smelled petrol on the A1, over
thirty years ago (Austin Metro).
>
>
>> Even petrol isn‘t that easy to ignite. You can drop a lighted cigarette
>> into it and it won‘t ignite. Hollywood get it wrong all the time.
>
>> Tim
>
>> -- Ple
>

[alan_m]

On 12/10/2023 12:44, Cursitor Doom wrote:

> If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that EVs need to be
> confined to ground floors only in multi-story car parks, so:

A bit difficult in the one local to me - entrance to the first floor of
parking is up a ramp to above a shopping centre. I doubt if a fire
engine could get up the spiral ramp easily.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[maus]

On 2023-10-12, Colin Bignell <c...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> wrote:
> On 12/10/2023 10:36, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <NYacnVZD35NOOrr4...@giganews.com>, Colin
>> Bignell <c...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> writes
>>> On 12/10/2023 08:26, Robin wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/2023 23:30, tim+ wrote:
>>>>> Colin Bignell <c...@bignellREMOVETHIS.me.uk> Wrote in message:r
>>>>>> . Even making the improbable assumption that none of the hybrids
>>>>>> caught fire due to a fault in their electric side, that still gives
>>>>>> EVs a fire rate of around 0.07% compared to the 0.04% for ICE
>>>>>> vehicles.-- Colin Bignell
>>>>>
>>>>> Hybrids are the worst, then ICE with full EVs the lowest risk.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/
>>>>>
>>>>  that was cited last week
>>>>  On 02/10/2023 12:23, Robin wrote:
>>>>  > On 02/10/2023 11:45, Frank wrote:
>>>>  >
>>>>  > <snip>>

>> same value on vehicle maintenance (MOTs etc.) as we do.
>
> Jack Reacher Motor Mechanic seems to be a novel in the series that I
> missed :-)
>
> A quick Google search shows that, while some States do have annual
> vehicle inspections, most do not. Even the ones that do seem to be less
> stringent than even the earliest MOTs.
>
>

My late wife visited Boston, Mass about 1970. Everyone was swapping
licence plates, for some reason.

My daughter (1 of three) bought a dodgy car from a garage about 20
years. She brought it to be tested, and rang me later.

"Dad, could you come over and pick me up. " (Dodgy brakes)

I have not complained about the car test since


--
grey...@mail.com
Death to the Influencers, hung, drawn and Quartered is more than they deserve.
Meantime, back at the Estancia, etc.

[maus]

"May notice a burning smell" I love it!

Someone brought an EV to my local McDonnels recently, it went on fire,
burned the place, and I have to drive four miles further to get my
`Chili Wrap'

[The Natural Philosopher]

They wont be able to. The truth is out.

--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yes. Range Rover Discovery Sport Evoque

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/land-rover-discovery-sport-evoque-gain-mild-hybrid-diesel-option

Lithium battery under the floor on the left hand side

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/10/2023 14:52, maus wrote:

> Someone brought an EV to my local McDonnels recently, it went on fire,
> burned the place, and I have to drive four miles further to get my
> `Chili Wrap'
>

Fuck. That is a life changing trauma. Especially to your abiliity to
spell 'McDonald's'...
Can't you sue the manufacturer for emotional damage?

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

[N_Cook]

On 12/10/2023 12:44, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Its soon that time of year again with the sky illuminated with different
mineral salts burning with different colours.
What no one seems to have noted , is the flame colour seemingly in the
images of the Luton fire is the strong red of lithium or strontium, so
excluding strontium, leaves lithium as a principal component of combustion

--
Global sea level rise to 2100 from curve-fitted existing altimetry data
<http://diverse.4mg.com/slr.htm>

[Andy Burns]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> The car was a PHEV Discovery, with its running lights on. The fire is
> under the front passenger seat where the lithium battery is. It is not
> parked.
>
> No one wants to admit it, but it is the case.

my car is a "mild hybrid" but with only a larger lead acid 12V battery,
I presume the Disco Very uses a 48V battery?

I don't think any power can make it from the battery to the wheels, it
just recuperates under braking and uses the energy to restart the
engine, in conjunction with stop/start system, which gets company car
drivers a lower BIK rating.

[Colin Bignell]

I read several interesting comments from Americans about testing in the
USA. One said that a car would pass his state's annual test if you could
see through the windscreen, there was any visible tread on the tyres and
the brakes were not metal to metal. Another said that all he needed to
do to get his car to pass was to answer no to the question 'have you
modified the car?'.

--
Colin Bignell

[Tim Streater]

On 11 Oct 2023 at 22:25:20 BST, "Cursitor Doom" <c...@notformail.com> wrote:

> On 11 Oct 2023 08:07:07 GMT, Spike <aero....@btinternet.invalid>

> wrote:
>
>> What’s the betting that this fire has an EV at the heart of it
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446>
>

> They'll try to cover that up, but it's inescapable from the degree of
> damage caused that EV(s) are culpable, even if the original car which
> burst into flames turns out to be non-EV (pretty unlikely). If there
> are EVs 'sprinkled throughout' that car park, they'll cause every car
> around them to go up in flames in a sort of chain reaction. It's also
> highly likely that the heavier weight of EVs made the building's
> collapse far more likely, which is precisely what happened. We never
> used to see car park conflagrations like this in the past when there
> were no EVs. it's an entirely recent phenomenon. :(

1) The building partially collapsed but no one has yet put forward any
evidence that this was caused by "extra heavy EVs" so this is a mere
unsubstantiated assertion on your part.

2) Correlation does not imply causation.

3) The rest of your amusing post is mere hysteria.

--
I was brought up to believe that you should never give offence if you can avoid it; the new culture tells us you should always take offence if you can. There are now experts in the art of taking offence, indeed whole academic subjects, such as 'gender studies', devoted to it.

Roger Scruton

[Cursitor Doom]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:43:43 +0100, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

People are saying the damn things should be fully isolated when left
parked-up, but that's not going to help as it seems whatever mechanism
that kicks these fires off begins *within* the battery itself. I won't
be buying one of these fuckers any time soon!

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/10/2023 16:16, N_Cook wrote:
>
>
> Its soon that time of year again with the sky illuminated with different
> mineral salts burning with different colours.
> What no one seems to have noted , is the flame colour seemingly in the
> images of the Luton fire is the strong red of lithium or strontium, so
> excluding strontium, leaves lithium as a principal component of combustion
>

When lithium batteries burn, it isn't the lithium that burns, Its the
electrolyte

That doesn't affect the colouration though.


--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

[The Natural Philosopher]

The Disco in question is a full EV but with a range of only about 40
miles before the engine kicks in.

--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain

[Cursitor Doom]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 19:33:47 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 12/10/2023 16:43, Andy Burns wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> The car was a PHEV Discovery, with its running lights on. The fire is
>>> under the front passenger seat where the lithium battery is. It is not
>>> parked.
>>>
>>> No one wants to admit it, but it is the case.
>>
>> my car is a "mild hybrid" but with only a larger lead acid 12V battery,
>> I presume the Disco Very uses a 48V battery?
>>
>> I don't think any power can make it from the battery to the wheels, it
>> just recuperates under braking and uses the energy to restart the
>> engine, in conjunction with stop/start system, which gets company car
>> drivers a lower BIK rating.
>
>The Disco in question is a full EV but with a range of only about 40
>miles before the engine kicks in.

Has the full model designation been established yet? First we were
told it was a diesel vehicle (hardly likely, but that's what was
claimed) then it was a hybrid and now your 'e saying it's a full EV.
It's got to have had lithium cells in there somewhere from the blaze
that ensued - and the collateral damage.