protecting MDF screw holes from stripping

[jkn]

Hi Chaps
I am going to be removing the fixings (hinges, drawer runners, etc) from an MDF wardrobe prior to painting shortly. For 'domestic acceptibility' reasons I can see me having to refit and re-remove some of these more than once on the path to a beautiful painted finish...

Bearing in mind the relative weakeness of screw threads in MDF I wondered about strengthening the holes whilst I was about it, to guard against future stripping of the thread. Anyone done anything like this? I was wondering about trying to wipe inside the holes already present, with perhaps PVA, or cyanoacrylate glue, or something. Any better ideas?

Cheers
Jon N

[Bob Minchin]

Insert a hardwood dowel at right angles to the axis of the screw hole so
that the screw will pass through the diameter of the dowel.
Glue in place.

[newshound]

A bit tricky for drawer runners in the middle of a big sheet.

Never tried it but I would think about dribbling Ronseal or similar
"wood hardener" into the hole, ideally with the sheet horizontal. This
penetrates fairly well and sets. Might be worth doing two or three
treatments,

[Bob Minchin]

OK but it is the best way to do hinges even on a new build to get extra
strength.
There is normally scope to make new holes in drawer runners into virgin MDF

[fred]

Don't use a cordless screwdriver. Do it manually, and carefully. If you do strip the threads insert a matchstick with a drop of pva glue or enlarge the hole and use a plastic plug

[stuart noble]

Sounds like unnecessary work to me. Deal with it if it happens. Mine
have been in and out a good few times without a problem

[harryagain]

"jkn" <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ebb67628-caf3-435f...@googlegroups.com...

There are special fixings/gadgets for all these problems,
Screwfix has them.
White glue in the screwhole works if the load is not too high.
Problem arises when you want to take the screw out after glue has set.

[Chris Holford]

In article <ebb67628-caf3-435f...@googlegroups.com>, jkn
<jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> writes
snip

>
>Bearing in mind the relative weakeness of screw threads in MDF I wondered about
>strengthening the holes whilst I was about it, to guard against future stripping
>of the thread. Anyone done anything like this?

Snip
I drip in a few drops of thin cyano' (not enough to fill the hole). The
thin stuff will harden the surrounding mdf. When it comes to re-
assembling try to get the screw started into the original threads so
that you are not cutting a new thread.

--
Chris Holford

[polygonum]

I have had some success in repairing damaged holes by using ordinary
plastic wall plugs. Enlarge the hole sufficiently to be able to get a
plug in - might need to be tapped with a hammer. Maybe also coat it in glue.

Obviously that is only acceptable where the area around the screw hole
will end up covered by something.

--
Rod

[meow...@care2.com]

Fit more fixings. Or get some decent furniture to begin with. Sorry, I hate mdf, I used it once.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <+x1WuJAB...@brownswell.myzen.co.uk>, Chris Holford
<c.ho...@brownswell.myzen.co.uk> writes

+1
Superglue is pretty effective in strengthening and repairing weak or
split MDF (and chipboard). As it soaks in quickly, several applications
may necessary. However, it is probably best to try to saturate the area
concerned before the superglue starts to go off, or you may end up with
a thin layer of strengthened material on the surface only, and not at
any depth.
--
Ian

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[stuart noble]

Given that the original holes on kitchen furniture are precisely drilled
and the screws are specially designed, I really don't know what this
thread is about. Something that might happen if you tighten the screw on
max torque? Why would you do that?

[stuart noble]

On 30/10/2013 22:49, meow...@care2.com wrote:

Railway sleepers more your style?

[meow...@care2.com]

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:10:50 AM UTC, stuart noble wrote:
> On 30/10/2013 22:49, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:39:34 PM UTC, jkn wrote:

> >> Hi Chaps I am going to be removing the fixings (hinges, drawer
> >> runners, etc) from an MDF wardrobe prior to painting shortly. For
> >> 'domestic acceptibility' reasons I can see me having to refit and
> >> re-remove some of these more than once on the path to a beautiful
> >> painted finish... Bearing in mind the relative weakeness of screw
> >> threads in MDF I wondered about strengthening the holes whilst I
> >> was about it, to guard against future stripping of the thread.
> >> Anyone done anything like this? I was wondering about trying to
> >> wipe inside the holes already present, with perhaps PVA, or
> >> cyanoacrylate glue, or something. Any better ideas? Cheers Jon N

> > Fit more fixings. Or get some decent furniture to begin with. Sorry,
> > I hate mdf, I used it once.

> Given that the original holes on kitchen furniture are precisely drilled

that's because they're drilled in the 2 pieces separately. Once rails are assembled to carcass, further holes can be added to the 2 without need for a template.

> and the screws are specially designed,

Standard pointed coarse thread screws do add less strength per screw, but still add significant strength and can greatly increase rail load capacity.

> I really don't know what this
> thread is about. Something that might happen if you tighten the screw on
> max torque? Why would you do that?

I presume the OP wants some weak furniture to survive multiple reassemblies.


NT

[meow...@care2.com]

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:12:51 AM UTC, stuart noble wrote:
> On 30/10/2013 22:49, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:39:34 PM UTC, jkn wrote:

> >> runners, etc) from an MDF wardrobe prior to painting shortly. For

> > Fit more fixings. Or get some decent furniture to begin with. Sorry,
> > I hate mdf, I used it once.

> Railway sleepers more your style?

no


NT

[fred]

Any manufacturer worth his salt would have multi-hole boring machines or point to point machines to drill all the holes in one pass.

Standard 'pointy' screws aren't much good if screwing into the face of 18mm chipboard or mdf (or even 15mm if you are shopping at the bottom of the market). Euro screws in a pre-drilled 5mm hole or k.d fittings are generally used.

99.99% of all furniture manufactured over the last 10-20 or so years has used man made board somewhere in it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it when used correctly. If you had problems with something you bought then it must have been shoddy or abused,

[stuart noble]

IME kitchen units can be knocked down and re-assembled any number of
times. I had my 25 year old MFI 1000mm base unit in and out several
times recently (don't ask), and all the fixings went back as good as new.

[meow...@care2.com]

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:47:52 AM UTC, fred wrote:
> On Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:17:28 AM UTC, meow...@care2.com wrote:

> Standard 'pointy' screws aren't much good if screwing into the face of 18mm chipboard or mdf (or even 15mm if you are shopping at the bottom of the market).

They work fine for me. Just don't expect as much pullout resistance each as fat screws or other chipboard fixings. I've toughened chipboard furniture up quite well with extra fixings.

> Euro screws in a pre-drilled 5mm hole or k.d fittings are generally used.
> 99.99% of all furniture manufactured over the last 10-20 or so years has used man made board somewhere in it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it when used correctly.

Normally chipboard, not mdf. And I certainly wouldnt say there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Its built down to price, doesn't last well, can't cope with water, can't cope with anything heavier than bedding, etc.

The one time I used MDF it proved ill equipped to deal with a decade of normal household life.

> If you had problems with something you bought then it must have been shoddy or abused,

Its chipboard, with all the downsides of chip. Real wood furniture looks much better, is far more durable, and if damaged far more repairable. I see little sense paying a bit less for something that will look crap in 10 or 20 years.


NT

[stuart noble]

> Normally chipboard, not mdf. And I certainly wouldnt say there's
> absolutely nothing wrong with it. Its built down to price, doesn't
> last well, can't cope with water, can't cope with anything heavier
> than bedding, etc.
>

I'd better move that dinner service of mine then. After 25 years on the
shelf of a Hygena wall unit, it's probably going to come crashing down
quite soon.

[Harry Bloomfield]

on 30/10/2013, stuart noble supposed :

A good tip is to always turn them anti-clockwise, until you feel the
click where the thread starts, then start to screw in. It saves the
screw cutting a fresh thread, which weakens it. It works on most things
which cit their own thread, including steel sheet using self tapers.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

[fred]

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 3:07:32 PM UTC, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:47:52 AM UTC, fred wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:17:28 AM UTC, meow...@care2.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > Standard 'pointy' screws aren't much good if screwing into the face of 18mm chipboard or mdf (or even 15mm if you are shopping at the bottom of the market).
>
>
>
> They work fine for me. Just don't expect as much pullout resistance each as fat screws or other chipboard fixings. I've toughened chipboard furniture up quite well with extra fixings.
>
>
>
> > Euro screws in a pre-drilled 5mm hole or k.d fittings are generally used.
>
> > 99.99% of all furniture manufactured over the last 10-20 or so years has used man made board somewhere in it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it when used correctly.
>
>
>
> Normally chipboard, not mdf. And I certainly wouldnt say there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Its built down to price, doesn't last well, can't cope with water, can't cope with anything heavier than bedding, etc.
>

Its the furniture that is built down to a price. Nothing to do with the material used.

>
>
> The one time I used MDF it proved ill equipped to deal with a decade of normal household life.
>

So tell us how it was ill-equipped to deal with a decade on normal use. Did the MDF itself disintegrate or was it a question of incorrect joints that caused the problem or bad design. I'm afraid you are confusing the furniture with the material used in its construction.

Millions of homes have kitchen cupboards made from chipboard or mdf. If it was as bad as the more ignorant amongst us claim people would have stopped using it years ago.

And no, it is not used only in cheaper kitchens.

And yes if improperly used it can fail but that would be the same with any material.

Apart from chairs very little solid wood furniture is sold. It would be hideously expensive and over kill for normal domestic use . Modern solid wood kitchens have man made board carcases. Doors may have solid wood stiles and rails but the infill panel is unlikely to be natural wood. Man made boards are vastly superior in these circumstance as they are stable, don't shrink or contract nor split all of which natural wood may do.

As a substrate for veneering it is unbeatable.

>
> > If you had problems with something you bought then it must have been shoddy or abused,
>
>
>
> Its chipboard, with all the downsides of chip. Real wood furniture looks much better, is far more durable, and if damaged far more repairable. I see little sense paying a bit less for something that will look crap in 10 or 20 years.
>

Nonsense. In what way would real wood furniture look better ? How it looks is down to the designer and he quality of manufacture not the material. I would dispute it is more durable. Put a hot plate on a melamine faced table and its no problem. Do the same with natural wood with a varnish finish and you have a repair job on your hands Melamine faced board will take lots of knocks and bangs which would leave natural wood bruised or chipped. We had a high class kitchen with a formica finish over chipboard. When we sold the house after 17 years and 5 kids it still looked like new. Sister in law got a 'real wood' kitchen and it is not wearing well, apart from the nonsense of having to treat the 'butcher block' work surfaces twice a years as recommended by the manufacturer. (And incidentally this 'butcher block' is nothing of the sort. Its strip lamination. Gluing a whole lot of offcuts together. Load of bollix. Seen any commercial kitchen with this type of work surface? No? Didn't think so.)



>
>
>
> NT

[stuart noble]

Yep, chipboard has improved the quality of life for millions of people
for whom a fitted kitchen was out of the question

[Chris Holford]

In article <mn.0b207ddb39...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk>, Harry
Bloomfield <harry...@NOSPAM.tiscali.co.uk> writes

>A good tip is to always turn them anti-clockwise, until you feel the
>click where the thread starts, then start to screw in. It saves the
>screw cutting a fresh thread, which weakens it. It works on most things
>which cit their own thread, including steel sheet using self tapers.
>

+1
--
Chris Holford

[Ian Jackson]

In message <0rS0YIAZ...@brownswell.myzen.co.uk>, Chris Holford
<c.ho...@brownswell.myzen.co.uk> writes

Isn't that more-or-less standard practice for screwing any screw into
any already-formed thread?

[meow...@care2.com]

On Friday, November 1, 2013 1:30:03 PM UTC, fred wrote:
> On Thursday, October 31, 2013 3:07:32 PM UTC, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:47:52 AM UTC, fred wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:17:28 AM UTC, meow...@care2.com wrote:

> > > > 99.99% of all furniture manufactured over the last 10-20 or so years has used man made board somewhere in it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it when used correctly.
> > > > > Normally chipboard, not mdf. And I certainly wouldnt say there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Its built down to price, doesn't last well, can't cope with water, can't cope with anything heavier than bedding, etc.
> > Its the furniture that is built down to a price. Nothing to do with the material used.
> > > > The one time I used MDF it proved ill equipped to deal with a decade of normal household life.
> > So tell us how it was ill-equipped to deal with a decade on normal use. Did the MDF itself disintegrate or was it a question of incorrect joints that caused the problem or bad design. I'm afraid you are confusing the furniture with the material used in its construction.

You're hardly in any position to decide such things without having heard what the problems were. The main problem was inability to withstand the occasional drip from mugs. This resulted in finish breakup, expansion of mdf, and consequent deterioration. It was factory spray painted, but still didnt cope.

> Millions of homes have kitchen cupboards made from chipboard or mdf. If it was as bad as the more ignorant amongst us claim people would have stopped using it years ago.
> And no, it is not used only in cheaper kitchens.
> And yes if improperly used it can fail but that would be the same with any material.
> Apart from chairs very little solid wood furniture is sold.

Ah. Maybe the solid wood furniture I have doesnt exist then, nor the many shops that sell it.

> It would be hideously expensive and over kill for normal domestic use .

Of course it costs more to buy, but it lasts. Buy cheap, buy twice.

> Modern solid wood kitchens have man made board carcases. Doors may have solid wood stiles and rails but the infill panel is unlikely to be natural wood. Man made boards are vastly superior in these circumstance as they are stable, don't shrink or contract nor split all of which natural wood may do.
> As a substrate for veneering it is unbeatable.

I'm all for veneered chip for kitchen worktops. Wood is a poor 2nd for this. But for elsewhere in the house, wood rules.

> > > > If you had problems with something you bought then it must have been shoddy or abused,
> > > > > Its chipboard, with all the downsides of chip. Real wood furniture looks much better, is far more durable, and if damaged far more repairable. I see little sense paying a bit less for something that will look crap in 10 or 20 years.
> > Nonsense. In what way would real wood furniture look better ? How it looks is down to the designer and he quality of manufacture not the material.

Melamine loves to come apart at the seams in time, whereupon its horribly ugly and rarely worth fixing. Wood looks ok when worn, veneered chip wears terribly. Melamine also discolours badly in time - wood also colours but it looks good.

> I would dispute it is more durable.

How many wood & how many chipboard furniture pieces are still around from the 1960s & 70s? There's a big difference in number because wood remains graceful, veneer looks awful after a while.

> Put a hot plate on a melamine faced table and its no problem. Do the same with natural wood with a varnish finish and you have a repair job on your hands

hence melamine's standard in kitchens.

> Melamine faced board will take lots of knocks and bangs which would leave natural wood bruised or chipped.

and vice versa, the edges/corners are much weaker than real wood. That's where damage tends to happen.

> We had a high class kitchen with a formica finish over chipboard. When we sold the house after 17 years and 5 kids it still looked like new. Sister in law got a 'real wood' kitchen and it is not wearing well, apart from the nonsense of having to treat the 'butcher block' work surfaces twice a years as recommended by the manufacturer. (And incidentally this 'butcher block' is nothing of the sort. Its strip lamination. Gluing a whole lot of offcuts together. Load of bollix. Seen any commercial kitchen with this type of work surface? No? Didn't think so.)

Crappy idea. Formica is a boon in the kitchen, but elsewhere no thank you.


NT

[fred]

On Friday, November 1, 2013 11:14:23 PM UTC, meow...@care2.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 1, 2013 1:30:03 PM UTC, fred wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, October 31, 2013 3:07:32 PM UTC, meow...@care2.com wrote:
>
> > > On Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:47:52 AM UTC, fred wrote:
>
> > > > > On Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:17:28 AM UTC, meow...@care2.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > > > > 99.99% of all furniture manufactured over the last 10-20 or so years has used man made board somewhere in it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it when used correctly.
>
> > > > > > Normally chipboard, not mdf. And I certainly wouldnt say there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Its built down to price, doesn't last well, can't cope with water, can't cope with anything heavier than bedding, etc.
>
> > > Its the furniture that is built down to a price. Nothing to do with the material used.
>
> > > > > The one time I used MDF it proved ill equipped to deal with a decade of normal household life.
>
> > > So tell us how it was ill-equipped to deal with a decade on normal use. Did the MDF itself disintegrate or was it a question of incorrect joints that caused the problem or bad design. I'm afraid you are confusing the furniture with the material used in its construction.
>
>
>
> You're hardly in any position to decide such things without having heard what the problems were. The main problem was inability to withstand the occasional drip from mugs. This resulted in finish breakup, expansion of mdf, and consequent deterioration. It was factory spray painted, but still didnt cope.
>

In other word I'm right It was the incorrect use of mdf (Spray painted !! Streuth) that led to its downfall. Spray painted mdf was not suitable for the treatment you were giving it any more than a french polish would have been

>
>
>
> > Millions of homes have kitchen cupboards made from chipboard or mdf. If it was as bad as the more ignorant amongst us claim people would have stopped using it years ago.
>
> > And no, it is not used only in cheaper kitchens.
>
> > And yes if improperly used it can fail but that would be the same with any material.
>
> > Apart from chairs very little solid wood furniture is sold.
>
>
>
> Ah. Maybe the solid wood furniture I have doesnt exist then, nor the many shops that sell it.
>

I didn't say it didn't exist. And that's not what this discussion is about. We are discussing your off hand dismal of chipboard and mdf as material suitable for furniture, which really says more about your knowledge.

>
>
> > It would be hideously expensive and over kill for normal domestic use .
>
>
>
> Of course it costs more to buy, but it lasts. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Pleas don't trot out these age old aphorisms. Its not necessarily cheaper nor longer lasting. There are mountains of cheap Taiwainese solid wood furniture floating about and very little of it of a decent quality

>
>
>
> > Modern solid wood kitchens have man made board carcases. Doors may have solid wood stiles and rails but the infill panel is unlikely to be natural wood. Man made boards are vastly superior in these circumstance as they are stable, don't shrink or contract nor split all of which natural wood may do.
>
> > As a substrate for veneering it is unbeatable.
>
>
>
> I'm all for veneered chip for kitchen worktops. Wood is a poor 2nd for this. But for elsewhere in the house, wood rules.
>

Rubbish. In the bathroom ? The utility room ? The garage ? Unless you are rich as Croesus and can afford solid teak furniture for any of these tough environments you are much better off with man made boards.

>
>
> > > > > If you had problems with something you bought then it must have been shoddy or abused,
>
> > > > > > Its chipboard, with all the downsides of chip. Real wood furniture looks much better, is far more durable, and if damaged far more repairable. I see little sense paying a bit less for something that will look crap in 10 or 20 years.
>
> > > Nonsense. In what way would real wood furniture look better ? How it looks is down to the designer and he quality of manufacture not the material.
>
>
>
> Melamine loves to come apart at the seams in time, whereupon its horribly ugly and rarely worth fixing. Wood looks ok when worn, veneered chip wears terribly. Melamine also discolours badly in time - wood also colours but it looks good.
>

Melamine is a film veneer applied to a suitable substrate. Like most things in life there are many variations of it just as there are many variations in the quality of chipboard, mdf and plywood and many manufacturers of melamine faced board, again of varying standards.
Its nonsense to extrapolate from one example and then apply this to all others.

>
>
> > I would dispute it is more durable.
>
>
>
> How many wood & how many chipboard furniture pieces are still around from the 1960s & 70s? There's a big difference in number because wood remains graceful, veneer looks awful after a while.

>

Simply because there was not a lot of it around in the 60's When it first became popular it was seized on by manufacturers of cheap furniture which was made down to a price. It is from this era that it got its ill-earned reputation which the ill-educated regularly trot out.

>
> > Put a hot plate on a melamine faced table and its no problem. Do the same with natural wood with a varnish finish and you have a repair job on your hands
>
>
>
> hence melamine's standard in kitchens.
>
>
>
> > Melamine faced board will take lots of knocks and bangs which would leave natural wood bruised or chipped.
>
>
>
> and vice versa, the edges/corners are much weaker than real wood. That's where damage tends to happen.
>
>
>
> > We had a high class kitchen with a formica finish over chipboard. When we sold the house after 17 years and 5 kids it still looked like new. Sister in law got a 'real wood' kitchen and it is not wearing well, apart from the nonsense of having to treat the 'butcher block' work surfaces twice a years as recommended by the manufacturer. (And incidentally this 'butcher block' is nothing of the sort. Its strip lamination. Gluing a whole lot of offcuts together. Load of bollix. Seen any commercial kitchen with this type of work surface? No? Didn't think so.)
>
>
>
> Crappy idea. Formica is a boon in the kitchen, but elsewhere no thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
> NT

Man made boards are excellent products when used correctly. Their use is wide spread and ubiquitous. Its nonsense to knock them on the basis of old wives tales and urban apochrypha. To do so merely indicates a lack of knowledge or a closed mind or both.

[meow...@care2.com]

On Saturday, November 2, 2013 3:37:41 PM UTC, fred wrote:

big snip

> Man made boards are excellent products when used correctly. Their use is wide spread and ubiquitous. Its nonsense to knock them on the basis of old wives tales and urban apochrypha. To do so merely indicates a lack of knowledge or a closed mind or both.

Lets re-establish the basics. What I'm criticising is melamine veneered chipboard furniture outside of the kitchen, and the basis for this criticism is repeated experiences of how non-durable it is. I've long lost count of how much I've scrapped due to its inability to cope with life.


NT