Maintenance Free Junction boxes using Wagos

[Tricky Dicky]

I am soon to replace a couple of below floor junction boxes on the ring main owing to a change of floor covering meaning they will have to become maintenance free.

According to the installation notes for the original Wagobox and Wagobox SLA to qualify for BS 5733-MF I need to use connectors 773-173. No quibble about the connectors but am I obliged to use Wagoboxes since these connectors have been type approved for them or can I use Wiska boxes as I have used with Wagos in non-maintenance free situations?

Richard

[SH]

The Wago boxes have cable grips in them. Do the Wiska boxes have those too?

[Tricky Dicky]

On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 at 11:39:13 UTC, SH wrote:

> The Wago boxes have cable grips in them. Do the Wiska boxes have those too?

Er no! Then again do junction boxes on fixed wiring require cable grips, I have not come across many that do.

Richard

[SH]

well, the Wago MF boxes I have have a pair of plastic cable grips that I
can move up and down a slotted cone to adjust for different cable diameters.

see here:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/wago-junction-box/7355f

I also have these:

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html

As you can see these have cable grips too.

Everytime I see a junction box described as maintenance free, there has
*always* been cable grips provided.


Clearly the ability to retain a cable protects against movement of the
individual wires that are pushed into the connectors.


The relevant standards are: BS EN60670-22, BS 5733-MF.

[SH]

On 24/03/2021 12:19, Tricky Dicky wrote:

This is required reading!

https://electrical.theiet.org/media/1534/accessibility-of-connections-and-maintenance-free-junction-boxes.pdf

[SH]

P.S. and it does say the terminals MUST be screw-less AND cables MUST be
secured by cable clamps....

[Steve Walker]

It may be mandated, but the question is why? As fixed wiring is usually
cable clipped to joists and junction boxes are screwed to them, why on
earth is a cable clamp a requirement, when nothing can move anyway?

[Tricky Dicky]

Thanks for that SH so it is Wagoboxes , no problem.

Richard

[Fredxx]

What's the difference between a cable clamp and a cable grip that you
would find in a Wago Box?

[SH]

a cable clamp is a strip of plastic held with a screw at both ends

A cable grip is two shims of plastic gripping the cable on both opposite
sides

Both are acceptable in MF boxes.

[Fredxx]

Thanks for the clarity.

IIRC the other stipulation is that a box can only contain one 20A
connection. And that this acceptable for a ring. BICBW

[Tricky Dicky]

On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 at 16:44:24 UTC, Fredxx wrote:

> Thanks for the clarity.
>
> IIRC the other stipulation is that a box can only contain one 20A
> connection. And that this acceptable for a ring. BICBW

You can go up to 32A if you use the 773-173 push on connector which is rated for wire sizes from 2.5mm2 to 6mm2

On further question, since the CPC in 2.5 T&E is only 1.5mm2 and will be too small for the 773-173 connector is it acceptable to use a 222 series connector for that?

Richard

[SH]

> On further question, since the CPC in 2.5 T&E is only 1.5mm2 and will be too small for the 773-173 connector is it acceptable to use a 222 series connector for that?
>
> Richard
>

Thats an excellent question......

our resident Sparky, Adam is probably the best & most qualified person
to answer that....

but my gut instinct is that if you have a (RCD and MCB) or a RCBO on the
circuit using those connectors, and that provided the 222 connector has
a high enough rated current capacity suitable for 1.5mm2 cables, you're
probably OK BICBW.

[Robin]

I think you only need 773-173 for 32A rating so you can use any 773 (or
222) /series/ connector that accepts 0.75-2.5mm



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[ARW]

On 24/03/2021 17:05, SH wrote:

Andy Burns is the wago man. He has a link somewhere to answer that
question.

--
Adam

[ARW]

On 24/03/2021 16:04, SH wrote:

I would consider a tightened up stuffing gland to be acceptable if using
a whiska box.

--
Adam

[Andy Burns]

ARW wrote:

> SH wrote:
>
>>> since the CPC in 2.5 T&E is only 1.5mm2 and will
>>> be too small for the 773-173 connector is it acceptable to use a 222
>>> series connector for that?
>>

>> Thats an excellent question......
>>
>> our resident Sparky, Adam is probably the best & most qualified person
>> to answer that....
>>
>> but my gut instinct is that if you have a (RCD and MCB) or a RCBO on
>> the circuit using those connectors, and that provided the 222
>> connector has a high enough rated current capacity suitable for 1.5mm2
>> cables, you're probably OK BICBW.
>
> Andy Burns is the wago man. He has a link somewhere to answer that
> question.

I was just about to say that I didn't think Adam was especially a Wago
fan ... here's my collected info on Wagos in MF boxes ...

Wagos fitted in a suitable enclosure can be treated as
"maintenance-free" but they need to be de-rated per conductor and total
per enclosure.

A normal maximum current for 2.5mm^2 T&W cable if clipped-direct would
be 27A, all the 222- and most of the 773- series Wagos have to be
de-rated to 20A when installed as "maintenance free" also the sum of all
currents within the single box must not exceed 50A

The exception is the 773-173 Wago, which is normally rated for 41A and
de-rated to 32A and 64A total when "maintenance free", so is still OK
for a ring circuit.

I hadn't previously noticed the minimum conductor size of 2.5mm^2 for
the 773-173, so I'd either use a 773-10x or 222-41x for the CPC.

<http://enews.wago.com/art_resource.php?sid=8u8pz.k3ilfc,force_download=1>

[Fredxx]

That's really useful, thanks.

[ARW]

On 24/03/2021 19:34, Andy Burns wrote:

>

> <http://enews.wago.com/art_resource.php?sid=8u8pz.k3ilfc,force_download=1>


Boxes available in 4 different colours:-)

We all need to accessorise from time to time.


--
Adam

[Adam Funk]

I've never seen the "designer colours" before --- when did they add
those?

[Robin]

nor me - and later leaflets offer only grey

https://www.wago.com/medias/WAGOBOX-Leaflet.pdf

[Andy Burns]

Adam Funk wrote:

> I've never seen the "designer colours" before --- when did they add
> those?

Well, that's a 2017 leaflet, so maybe they've discontinued them all
apart from grey by now?

[Andy Burns]

Robin wrote:

> Adam Funk wrote:
>
>> I've never seen the "designer colours" before --- when did they add
>> those?
>
> nor me - and later leaflets offer only grey
> https://www.wago.com/medias/WAGOBOX-Leaflet.pdf

Has anyone ever figured out the full history of wago, connexbox and wagobox?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <s3fcfi$5o2$1...@dont-email.me>,

Steve Walker <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> It may be mandated, but the question is why? As fixed wiring is usually
> cable clipped to joists and junction boxes are screwed to them, why on
> earth is a cable clamp a requirement, when nothing can move anyway?

I'd say cables are very rarely clipped to joists and neither are JBs fixed
to the joist either. It would mean lifting a whole load more of the floor
than needed during a re-wire.

And if a new installation, best not to fit a JB in an inaccessible place
anyway.

--
*I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Steve Walker]

On 25/03/2021 10:59, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <s3fcfi$5o2$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Steve Walker <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
>> It may be mandated, but the question is why? As fixed wiring is usually
>> cable clipped to joists and junction boxes are screwed to them, why on
>> earth is a cable clamp a requirement, when nothing can move anyway?
>
> I'd say cables are very rarely clipped to joists and neither are JBs fixed
> to the joist either. It would mean lifting a whole load more of the floor
> than needed during a re-wire.

For a re-wire, what would be wrong with clipping the cable just near the
junction box and not elsewhere? It'd serve the same purpose as a cable
clamp.

> And if a new installation, best not to fit a JB in an inaccessible place
> anyway.

Places that were accessible can easily become inaccessible later - such
as by tiling a floor, fitting units above, etc.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <s3i3gn$u15$1...@dont-email.me>,

Steve Walker <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> On 25/03/2021 10:59, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article <s3fcfi$5o2$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > Steve Walker <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> >> It may be mandated, but the question is why? As fixed wiring is
> >> usually cable clipped to joists and junction boxes are screwed to
> >> them, why on earth is a cable clamp a requirement, when nothing can
> >> move anyway?
> >
> > I'd say cables are very rarely clipped to joists and neither are JBs
> > fixed to the joist either. It would mean lifting a whole load more of
> > the floor than needed during a re-wire.

> For a re-wire, what would be wrong with clipping the cable just near the
> junction box and not elsewhere? It'd serve the same purpose as a cable
> clamp.

Not really - easy to pull a cable through a clip. Not so with a proper
cord grip.

> > And if a new installation, best not to fit a JB in an inaccessible
> > place anyway.

> Places that were accessible can easily become inaccessible later - such
> as by tiling a floor, fitting units above, etc.

As per the OP's question. Personally, if it has worked OK to date, I'd
leave things as they are. Seems to be a solution to a problem that
wouldn't exist if care was taken in the first place.

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

[Robin]

red going for 50 pence last December - possibly a clear-out

https://twitter.com/ConnectorWH/status/1335917514161844231?s=20

[Mathew Newton]

On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 at 16:54:05 UTC, Tricky Dicky wrote:

> On further question, since the CPC in 2.5 T&E is only 1.5mm2 and will be too small for the 773-173 connector is it acceptable to use a 222 series connector for that?

Dammit. I extended a ring using a Wago MF JB and thought I was being a good boy by using 773-173s but didn't spot this minimum diameter. I think I ought to take the carpet up and inspect them... (which, if I do, will of course make me wonder if they needed to be maintenance free afterall!).

[Mathew Newton]

Looks like it's my lucky day! *This* is why I take photos of everything I do in the house, particularly 'behind the scenes' stuff:

http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/wagomfjb.jpg

Truth be told I wonder if the reason I didn't use a 773-173 for the CPC was simply because it wouldn't fit in? Sounds like a bodge to me though if that was the case so maybe I'd read it in some Wago literature somewhere that it was okay as I remember doing a lot of reading about how best to do it.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Are these going to be in a ceiling void or on the ground floor with
definitely no access, one can after all put in dummy air vents in a ceiling
to allow access to such things.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Steve Walker" <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote in message
news:s3fcfi$5o2$1...@dont-email.me...

[SH]

it looks like you have some crunched up metal sheet/foil above the
connector used for the live wires?

S.

[Andy Burns]

SH wrote:

> Mathew Newton wrote:
>
>> http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/wagomfjb.jpg

>
> it looks like you have some crunched up metal sheet/foil above the
> connector used for the live wires?

Or is it just (camera flash?) reflecting off the translucent part of the
wago?

[Robin]

looks to me flash reflected from the plastic on the end of the Wago that
does not detract from an excellent "photo of record"

[Tricky Dicky]

On Thursday, 25 March 2021 at 23:50:04 UTC, Mathew Newton wrote:
>
> Looks like it's my lucky day! *This* is why I take photos of everything I do in the house, particularly 'behind the scenes' stuff:
>
> http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/permanent/wagomfjb.jpg
>
> Truth be told I wonder if the reason I didn't use a 773-173 for the CPC was simply because it wouldn't fit in? Sounds like a bodge to me though if that was the case so maybe I'd read it in some Wago literature somewhere that it was okay as I remember doing a lot of reading about how best to do it.

Matthew is that a 773-173 below the 222 series used for the CPC and if so do you think a 773-104 would fit on top? The reason I ask is because the junction boxes I am replacing have spurs coming off them so I need to get something with at least a 3-way for the CPC. The data sheet for the similar Wagobox 221-4 shows the three slots filled and the CPC’s inserted into a 5-way folded back on the cables, I am not sure the standard Wagobox will allow that using a 222 series connector. I have seen a data sheet that showed the combinations of different connectors you can use in the slots but cannot seem to find it now.

Richard

[Andy Burns]

Tricky Dicky wrote:

> Matthew is that a 773-173 below the 222 series used for the CPC and
> if so do you think a 773-104 would fit on top? The reason I ask is
> because the junction boxes I am replacing have spurs coming off them
> so I need to get something with at least a 3-way for the CPC. The
> data sheet for the similar Wagobox 221-4 shows the three slots filled
> and the CPC’s inserted into a 5-way folded back on the cables, I am
> not sure the standard Wagobox will allow that using a 222 series
> connector. I have seen a data sheet that showed the combinations of
> different connectors you can use in the slots but cannot seem to find
> it now.

The older wagoboxes allow for two columns of 222 or 773 connectors, the
newer wagoboxes allow for three columns of the smaller 221 or 2273
connectors (but the latter require some form of "adapter" to wrap around
the connector)

[Tricky Dicky]

On Friday, 26 March 2021 at 11:33:16 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:

> The older wagoboxes allow for two columns of 222 or 773 connectors, the
> newer wagoboxes allow for three columns of the smaller 221 or 2273
> connectors (but the latter require some form of "adapter" to wrap around
> the connector)

Andy I appreciate what you are saying but my question is if you have inserted a 773-173 connector into each slot of the standard Wagobox, how much room is left in each slot for additional connectors bearing in mind, because of spurs, I will have three CPC’s to connect too.

Richard

[Mathew Newton]

Yes, that's it.

[Mathew Newton]

It's all jolly confusing isn't it. Perhaps if you're using these things day-in-day-out the numbers all become second nature. Regarding your questions/thoughts:

1) Yes; it is a 773-173 below the 222-412. The datasheet says the height of the 222-412 (in my orientation) is 12.4mm so a 773-104 at 13mm high would I am sure also fit.
2) I haven't seen a Wagobox 221-4 enclosure before, and if you hadn't mentioned it I think I wouldn't have spotted it is a 3-slot version of the 'standard' Wagobox. It appears to be designed for the 221-series (which I do prefer over the 222's - I was probably just using up my old stock here) and so might not fit (or 'allow'?) the use of 773's if you're requiring high current capacity?
3) I'd always consider just folding back the CPC connector and having it terminate within the main body of the enclosure, regardless what any instructions might say. If anything I think it'd provide some benefit as it'd be the last to give way were the cables pulled out with sufficient force to overcome the cable grips and that's got to be a good thing to maintain CPC continuity right the very end.

At the end of the day even if constructing these boxes in less-than-perfect alignment with the instructions (which you really have to go looking for and then some time digesting the nuances of) then I'm sure the end result would be a million times better than the round screw-down junction boxes which I see are still widely available and, presumably, still used. Sure, such boxes are not allowed to be used in maintenance free locations but even if accessible who in real life actually maintains these boxes and how often?

[Andy Burns]

I don't have any 773-173s so don't know how much room they eat, but I'd
be surprised if you couldn't fit a 773-104 in the same slot as well.

I've tended to use 773-104 and 773-106 for CPCs, other wise with 222s
you need a 5+3 linked just to get 6 earths commoned, I haven't switched
to 221 yet, which would let you fit more in, especially with the XL boxes.

with 222s you can fit into one slot 5+2, 3+2, 2x3 or 3x2
with 773 you can fit 2x6 or 3x4 (I don't have any of the larger 773s to
check)

mixing the types you can fit a 222-105 and a 773-104 (but not a 773-106)
so if the 773-173 is as long, or longer than a 222-105, you won't fit a
773-106 for your earths along with a 773-173.

a 222-105 is 16.5mm long, how long is a 773-173 ?

[Robin]

25.6mm

I've never found in one place the sizes across ranges but TLC have a
Data Sheet for the 773 range which lives in me box

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Wago/Wago102.pdf

wd it be a useful addition to the Wiki when it returns to tabulate more
of them?

[Andy Burns]

Robin wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> a 222-105 is 16.5mm long, how long is a 773-173 ?
>
> 25.6mm

sorry I meant a 222-105 is 26.5mm, so you can fit a 773-173 plus a
222-104, but not a 222-106

if you had a 173 in each side you could fit a 104 in each side and link
them giving 6 positions for CPCs.

> wd it be a useful addition to the Wiki when it returns to tabulate more
> of them?

could be.

[Andy Burns]

Robin wrote:

> TLC have a Data Sheet for the 773 range which lives in me box
>
> https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Wago/Wago102.pdf

Similar for 222

<https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Wago/Wago412.pdf>

and 221

<https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Wago/Wago_Compact_Connectors.pdf>

and 2273

<https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Wago/Wago_202.pdf>

[Tricky Dicky]

Well if TLC’s measurements are correct then with a 773-173 in a Wagobox slot there is just enough space left to fit a 773-104 on top, just!

Richard

[Tricky Dicky]

Just got an email back from Wago to confirm you can fit a 773-173 and a 773-104 in one slot, result!

Richard

[Andy Burns]

Tricky Dicky wrote:

> if TLC’s measurements are correct

I don't think it's TLC's measurements, those .PDFs look like single
pages extracted from a larger Wago catalogue

[Robin]

or leaflets for the individual ranges?

And I should have said I've never found in one place the sizes across
ranges in a convenient document. I did find a catalogue last year but
it was a bit big at 716 pp and 90 MB. The WAGO connectors alone are
spread across 30 or so pages.

https://www.wago.com/gb/d/Info_60391248

[Roger Hayter]

On 26 Mar 2021 at 12:17:23 GMT, "Mathew Newton"

<mathewja...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
>
> At the end of the day even if constructing these boxes in less-than-perfect
> alignment with the instructions (which you really have to go looking for and
> then some time digesting the nuances of) then I'm sure the end result would
> be a million times better than the round screw-down junction boxes which I
> see are still widely available and, presumably, still used. Sure, such boxes
> are not allowed to be used in maintenance free locations but even if
> accessible who in real life actually maintains these boxes and how often?

Am I the only person who finds traditional junction boxes too easy to destroy
the terminals by over-tightening and distorting them? Modern push-in
terminals are much less easy to get wrong.


--
Roger Hayter

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ic8eaq...@mid.individual.net>,

The cheap type of JB with the U shaped terminal, yes, especially if you
try and squeeze in too many cables. But there are better (and more
expensive) designs around.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

[ARW]

On 27/03/2021 10:05, Roger Hayter wrote:

> Am I the only person who finds traditional junction boxes too easy to destroy
> the terminals by over-tightening and distorting them?
>
>

Of course not. There are our apprentices.

--
Adam