Anyone using Hive?

[Tricky Dicky]

I want to change and resite our present programmable thermostat with a wireless type. The one I have been considering is not all that much cheaper than the self install version of Hive. I was wondering if anyone has any experience of the system and can answer a few questions.

Is the system straight forward to self install? BG's website is full of dire warnings that it needs installing by them or an approved and qualified installer. Is it a case of them trying to drum up business? From what I have seen of the installation information it looks pretty straight forward?

Are there any other on going costs involved? It seems to access with your phone you need an "account" with BG. Is this access charged for other than your phone usage? If free now is it potentially chargeable in the future?

Finally is it worth it or is it just a load of pretentious bollix and I would be better sticking to what I was considering before and wait for some smarter technology to emerge?

Richard

[Graham.]

Its worse than that, if (when) they close their server it will render
your Hive useless.
I built my own Smart thermostat
https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/709c3u
It's not perfect, but my mobile devices access it directly, no server
involved.


--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[Tim Watts]

HeatGenius can also function without a server too. I've been very
pleased with their system and it is way more advanced than any of the
others (in that it can control right down to individual rooms, though
you don't have to).

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <35df673a-c27a-4539...@googlegroups.com>,

Tricky Dicky <tricky...@sky.com> wrote:
> Finally is it worth it or is it just a load of pretentious bollix and I
> would be better sticking to what I was considering before and wait for
> some smarter technology to emerge?

Like all these things, I think about how I'd use it if I had it. Going on
the adverts.

Turn on the hot water? I do have a storage system. Which like all takes
some time to heat. Which would be better - leaving it off until I remember
to turn it on when out? And if I forget, come home to no hot water? If I
were concerned about the running costs that much, I'd probably have a
combi.

Turn the central heating up or down? My system already does that for
different times of the day. And will adjust if it suddenly gets cold
outside - don't they all?

Turn a light on when I'm out? Why would it suddenly occur to me that might
be a good idea and why? If you think a light on when you're out is a good
thing why not do it automatically?

Oh - I'm single. In the average family, would it really be a good idea
having someone who is out of the house messing with things while others
are in?

--
*Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.*

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Andy Burns]

Tricky Dicky wrote:

> Are there any other on going costs involved? It seems to access with
> your phone you need an "account" with BG. Is this access charged for
> other than your phone usage? If free now is it potentially chargeable
> in the future?

My parents had a Hive 'stat fitted with a new boiler from BG (I did urge
them to compare with others, but dad being ex-gas board didn't want to).

Recently I keep hearing adverts on the radio for

"Hive active heating only £9/month"

and meaning to ask if they're being charged that, because I know he
hasn't even installed the Hive app on this phone.

[NY]

"Andy Burns" <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:egj3qm...@mid.individual.net...

Evidently he bought the subscription package rather than the
purchase-outright version of Hive. We got one on Amazon Black Friday (I
think) for a significant reduction in price. I fitted it myself because our
heating engineer, who was coming to service the boiler at around that time,
didn't feel confident (fear of the unknown) so he was interested to hear how
I'd got on, to see whether it was something he could offer as a service to
his other customers. It was probably the internet side of things rather than
the mains-wiring side of things that was unknown territory for him.

I really *must* get round to shorting-out and removing the old thermostat
which is no longer needed and which is now set to an arbitrarily high
temperature so it is always calling for heat and leaves the control of the
boiler entirely to Hive.

[whisky-dave]

On Wednesday, 15 February 2017 13:28:51 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

>
> Oh - I'm single. In the average family, would it really be a good idea
> having someone who is out of the house messing with things while others
> are in?

Yes, I could have hours of fun. :-)

Another reason why I think IP controlled appliances could be useful.

[Graham.]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 13:23:32 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <35df673a-c27a-4539...@googlegroups.com>,
> Tricky Dicky <tricky...@sky.com> wrote:
>> Finally is it worth it or is it just a load of pretentious bollix and I
>> would be better sticking to what I was considering before and wait for
>> some smarter technology to emerge?
>
>Like all these things, I think about how I'd use it if I had it. Going on
>the adverts.
>
>Turn on the hot water? I do have a storage system. Which like all takes
>some time to heat. Which would be better - leaving it off until I remember
>to turn it on when out? And if I forget, come home to no hot water? If I
>were concerned about the running costs that much, I'd probably have a
>combi.
>
>Turn the central heating up or down? My system already does that for
>different times of the day. And will adjust if it suddenly gets cold
>outside - don't they all?
>
>Turn a light on when I'm out? Why would it suddenly occur to me that might
>be a good idea and why? If you think a light on when you're out is a good
>thing why not do it automatically?
>
>Oh - I'm single. In the average family, would it really be a good idea
>having someone who is out of the house messing with things while others
>are in?

For the £10 it cost to build, mine was worth it just as an object
lesson to show people why they don't need one, and to piss off those I
know who have forked out £££ on Hive's and Nest's.
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[NY]

"Graham." <graham...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:0ot8acpgfle4lqn66...@4ax.com...

Yes, there's nothing magic about a Hive. It's basically a temperature
sensor, a relay, and some wireless comms. it probably has a clock so it will
continue to free-run using the most recent program even if it loses contact
with the server. I dare say I could have worked out a spec and built it from
a kit of parts. But it's a lot of hassle and my soldering skills are very
rusty (if that's the right word to describe non-ferrous solder!). The last
time I tried to solder something was when I was making up a lead to attach
some speakers to an Amazon Dot (mini-Echo) which has a 3.5 mm socket. I must
have overheated one of the tags on the 3.5 mm plug because although there
was a perfect contact from it to the far end of the cable, there was
variable resistance and intermittent no contact between one of the tags and
the tip or collar of the plug. Pretty crap design if normal soldering heat
can break down connections within a plug. Modern lead-free solder (*) that
melts at a higher temperature doesn't help :-(


(*) Somewhat akin to pork-free pigs or alcohol-free beer :-)

[Tony the pony]

"Graham." <graham...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:0ot8acpgfle4lqn66...@4ax.com...

Spot on.

[RJH]

Do you mean this:

http://www.hestiapi.com/product/hestiapi-maker-kit-no-case

Well, obviously not! How did you manage to make it for £10?

--
Cheers, Rob

[tim...]

"Tony the pony" <a...@b.com> wrote in message
news:58a481b7$0$53704$b1db1813$5240...@news.astraweb.com...

most people don't have the skills to "make one" from basic components

a valid comparison is how much it cost to make the same functionality from
other finished products

If indeed that's even possible

(please don't interpret that as support for these new fangled systems, it's
not)

tim





>
>

[RJH]

On 15/02/2017 11:58, Tricky Dicky wrote:
> I want to change and resite our present programmable thermostat with a wireless type. The one I have been considering is not all that much cheaper than the self install version of Hive. I was wondering if anyone has any experience of the system and can answer a few questions.
>
> Is the system straight forward to self install? BG's website is full of dire warnings that it needs installing by them or an approved and qualified installer. Is it a case of them trying to drum up business? From what I have seen of the installation information it looks pretty straight forward?
>

Pretty easy IME - if your present thermostat has a power feed.

> Are there any other on going costs involved? It seems to access with your phone you need an "account" with BG. Is this access charged for other than your phone usage? If free now is it potentially chargeable in the future?
>

No ongoing costs. As others have said, if BT block access to their
internet side of things, it could then become a subscription service. I
would doubt that'll happen. I've got a £20 web cam that I've had for
years that gives just the same thing - so I can't think the marginal
costs to BT are great. And if they did, their name in the IoT would be
mud(dier) and I'm sure someone would work out a way around it.

> Finally is it worth it or is it just a load of pretentious bollix and I would be better sticking to what I was considering before and wait for some smarter technology to emerge?
>

I suppose it could be pretentious if you flash it round your mates :-)

The only downsides I've noticed so far are:

* The thermostat needs to be prodded to show status - otherwise it's a
blank and rather bulky box;

* You do need to site the hub and it needs to be in range of each
router. And there's also a stat receiver (goes in place of your old stat).

* I've not measured the electricity consumption, but I did look into it,
and was led to believe it's low - maybe 4 units (~50p) a year.

I work irregular hours, can't be arsed to set/reset a programmable stat
for a schedule I can't rely on, and gain a certain amount of amusement.
I could easily live with out it but I'm lucky enough to have a choice.

--
Cheers, Rob

[Dave Liquorice]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:09:05 +0000, RJH wrote:

> * You do need to site the hub and it needs to be in range of each
> router. And there's also a stat receiver (goes in place of your old
> stat).

Can some one translate that into what a real system consists of?

> * I've not measured the electricity consumption, but I did look into it,
> and was led to believe it's low - maybe 4 units (~50p) a year.

4 units/year is only 0.5 W, that is very low. 5W, if carefully
engineered, would be more realistic.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 13:23:32 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> Turn on the hot water? I do have a storage system. Which like all takes
> some time to heat. Which would be better - leaving it off until I
> remember to turn it on when out? And if I forget, come home to no hot
> water?

When the mechanical time switch stopped working I didn't bother
replacing it until I put the place on the market. The stored hot
water only took 20 mins to heat from cold and would last a couple of
days.

> Turn the central heating up or down? My system already does that for
> different times of the day. And will adjust if it suddenly gets cold
> outside - don't they all?

The place above had an ordinary room stat to maintain the
temperature. Worked well enough. We have programable stats now
comfort is better and temeprature control better (minimal under/over
shoot)

> Turn a light on when I'm out? Why would it suddenly occur to me that
> might be a good idea and why? If you think a light on when you're out is
> a good thing why not do it automatically?

Or leave it on when you go out. The only light that could be useful
to switch on remotely is the exterior one but that only needs to be
done when arriving back home at night. Ideally that would be
automagic, perhaps by detecting when a persons phone connects via
Bluetooth to a controller.

Can't use WiFi as that is switched off when out and about and don't
have GPS enabled unless I need it (which isn't very often).

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Roger Mills]

On 15/02/2017 11:58, Tricky Dicky wrote:

I don't yet have any direct experience, but I've been researching it
with a view to installing a Hive system in my holiday flat. It would
have the advantage for me that, when I visit the flat in the winter (I'm
there now) I could turn on the heating remotely a few hours before
arriving rather than coming into a very cold place and having to heat it
from scratch. Since I have a stored hot water system, I could turn that
on remotely, too, but that's less important.

I already have a wireless programmable stat and, in theory, I could use
its holiday mode to turn the heating on just before my next planned
visit - but the problem with that is that my plans sometimes change!

As far as I can see, it's pretty simple to install. The only wiring you
need to do is to connect the receiver to your boiler and/or motorised
valves, depending on your system configuration. If you understand your
system well enough to install a wireless thermostat, you certainly
shouldn't have any trouble with installing a Hive receiver. If you're
lucky, you may have to do virtually no wiring. If you currently have a
programmer/timer which uses an industry-standard wall-plate, the Hive
receiver may plug into the existing wall plate in place of the old
programmer - with the only wiring necessary being to link out any
existing room stat. But you'd need to identify all the wires, of course
in order to confirm that.

The other part of the installation involves connecting the hub to a
spare port on your internet router, and providing it with a mains supply.

The thermostat unit, with its knob, buttons and display screen is
wireless, but is intended to hang on a wall. If you want to move it from
room to room, you can buy a stand for it - at an iniquitous price of
nearly 30 quid. I think I would make my own stand!

You are probably aware that the current model is the Hive 2 and that it
comes in two versions - heating only or heating plus hot water. Screwfix
have recently been selling the earlier version off for about 50 quid -
don't know whether they still have any. The old version is functionally
similar, except that the thermostat unit is much less sexy. Its hub also
has the disadvantage that it may not recover from a power cut - making
it useless if you are relying on remote access. This is because, when
the hub is turned on, it expects an internet connection to be there, and
gives up if there isn't one. After a power cut, it's likely to look for
a connection before the router has finished re-booting. The later hubs -
supplied with Hive 2 - are programmed to make multiple attempts to
connect to the internet and thus shouldn't suffer from this problem.

If you buy the self-install version, there are no ongoing costs. Access
to the app and to the remote server are free. I am assured by Hive that
they will provide free "lifetime" support. This slightly begs the
question as to whose lifetime, but they assure me that it is an ongoing
thing, and not just until that model is no longer sold.

My other concern is future-proofing. The hive is simply a switching
device. If you have a modulating boiler and want to be able to control
flow temperature, it can't do that. Hive are being a bit cagey about
whether they plan to add that capability - for obvious commercial
reasons, I guess. My boiler is pretty basic - so I don't need any
modulation control at present, but I may do in future if and when I
replace the boiler.

AIUI, the Nest already has the ability to control modulation - but its
other functions seem too clever by half to me, and I would would want to
maintain more control over the system than it appears to allow.

Is it worth having? I guess that depends on how important remote control
is to you. If you know when you're going to be in and out and away from
home, a programmable stat with a holiday mode is probably adequate - but
if your plans are flexible and you want to be able to come home to a
warm house at unpredictable times without using energy unnecessarily,
then it could come into its own.

I have had a lengthy dialogue with Hive - via the Screwfix site - to try
to bottom out some of these issues. If you go to
http://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-active-heating-hot-water-thermostat/5215j
and click on 'View all Q & A' you can see my questions and their answers.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

[Graham.]

>> For the £10 it cost to build, mine was worth it just as an object
>> lesson to show people why they don't need one, and to piss off those I
>> know who have forked out £££ on Hive's and Nest's.
>>
>
>Do you mean this:
>
>http://www.hestiapi.com/product/hestiapi-maker-kit-no-case
>
>Well, obviously not! How did you manage to make it for £10?

Yes indeed, that, although I elected to use a Pi Zero and an external
wallwart to save space.

Ok you're right I have underestimated the cost, but not by as much as
you'd think.

pi zero + 8GB micro sd card and unavoidable shipping from pimoroni.com
£13

The rest from Ebay free shipping in all cases

1602 LCD display
£1.38

wifi dongle
£1.33

2 channel relay board
99p

Dallas DS18B20 temp sensor 99p, but that was a pack of two so
50p

Prototype board £2.35, but that was a pack of 10 so
24p

male & female header strip pairs £1.75 but that was ten pairs and I
needed two so
35p

Tact switches 99p but that was a bag of 20, four needed so
20p

Total
£17.99 Pinched the plastic food box from SWMBO so that doesn't
count.

--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[Graham.]

>
>* The thermostat needs to be prodded to show status - otherwise it's a
>blank and rather bulky box;

That's because the Hive thermostat is completely wireless and relies
on internal battery power.

The designer of my home-made one also decided to turn the back-light
off after half a minute for no logical reason as it's mains powered. I
modified mine to dim the display rather than blank it.


--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[DerbyBorn]

don't understand - is the a disaster if the heating comes on when no-one is
home. versus letting the house get stone cold?

[Roger Mills]

On 15/02/2017 17:33, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:09:05 +0000, RJH wrote:
>
>> * You do need to site the hub and it needs to be in range of each
>> router. And there's also a stat receiver (goes in place of your old
>> stat).
>
> Can some one translate that into what a real system consists of?
>

There are 3 components in a Hive system - a hub, a receiver and a
thermostat.

The hub connects to an internet router by means of an ethernet cable,
and talks to Hive's remote server - enabling remote control by a
smartphone or computer app - which also talk to Hive's server.

The receiver connects into the heating system in place of an existing
programmer and room stat.

The thermostat is battery powered and behaves much like any other
wireless programmable thermostat.

The 3 components talk to each other using some wireless protocol, or
other - but not WiFi.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <egjkd7...@mid.individual.net>,

Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't yet have any direct experience, but I've been researching it
> with a view to installing a Hive system in my holiday flat. It would
> have the advantage for me that, when I visit the flat in the winter (I'm
> there now) I could turn on the heating remotely a few hours before
> arriving rather than coming into a very cold place and having to heat it
> from scratch. Since I have a stored hot water system, I could turn that
> on remotely, too, but that's less important.

Hmm. If I had a holiday flat which was unoccupied other than when I used
it, I'd turn off things like water and electricity when not there.

--
*If I worked as much as others, I would do as little as they *

[Michael Chare]

On 15/02/2017 11:58, Tricky Dicky wrote:

I have a Heatmiser Smartstat. It uses a separate thermometer connected
to it by a cable. It is mains powered and turns the boiler off and on to
keep the room with the thermometer at the correct temperature. There can
be up to 4 temp changes per day.

I can control it using an Android mobile phone app, and a 64bit Windows
PC running Google Chrome Arc Welder.

The main reason for having it was that I wanted the remote control.

The connection to it must rely on a Heatmiser server somewhere. If the
server stopped I would loose the remote control. It is a pity that there
is no web interface.

The biggest problem with the installation was running the cables neatly.
I happened to get lucky.

--
Michael Chare

[Roger Mills]

On 16/02/2017 00:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article<egjkd7...@mid.individual.net>,
> Roger Mills<watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't yet have any direct experience, but I've been researching it
>> with a view to installing a Hive system in my holiday flat. It would
>> have the advantage for me that, when I visit the flat in the winter (I'm
>> there now) I could turn on the heating remotely a few hours before
>> arriving rather than coming into a very cold place and having to heat it
>> from scratch. Since I have a stored hot water system, I could turn that
>> on remotely, too, but that's less important.
>
> Hmm. If I had a holiday flat which was unoccupied other than when I used
> it, I'd turn off things like water and electricity when not there.
>

I do indeed turn the water off, but not the electricity because there's
a fridge/freezer with food in it. The flat is in a converted house, the
rest of which is occupied - so the areas above and below are heated for
most of the time.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 22:50:33 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

> There are 3 components in a Hive system - a hub, a receiver and a
> thermostat.

Ta, all seems a bit complicated. I guess the hub is not integrated
with the receiver as running an ethernet cable is "too difficult" for
the majority these days.

> The 3 components talk to each other using some wireless protocol, or
> other - but not WiFi.

Probably the normal wireless stat (and hundreds of other things) on
433 MHz(?) the stat only has to signal "Hi it's me, switch [on |
off]", probably to the hub so it can tell the remote server and the
local control switch (receiver) the expected system state.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Andy Burns]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

> the stat only has to signal "Hi it's me, switch [on | off]"

I think it sends continual temperature readings to the hub, which I
gather can show you the historical readings via a web interface (could
be the webserver is a central BG one, rather than in the hub)

[NY]

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net...

>> There are 3 components in a Hive system - a hub, a receiver and a
>> thermostat.
>
> Ta, all seems a bit complicated. I guess the hub is not integrated
> with the receiver as running an ethernet cable is "too difficult" for
> the majority these days.

Yes - it would involve drilling holes through walls and floors/ceilings to
take it from one room (the one with the boiler wiring to the former time
switch) to another (the one with the router). I imagine most people (me
included) would opt for Homeplug to convey Ethernet from one to the other,
to make use of pre-existing house wiring - the ring mains.

Likewise for fitting a telephone socket in the bedroom where the router is -
if I wanted a clean, non-filtered line (with the internal phone extensions
changed from the unlfitered to filtered side of the faceplate) I'd need to
drill holes through the internal and external walls, run exterior-spec Cat 5
along the outside of the house and then drill another set of holes in
through the bedroom wall - or else run the wiring along the edge of the
carpet and up the corner of the living room (where it would be least
conspicuous, though it may still not pass the Wife Acceptance Test) and the
through the living room ceiling and the bedroom floor, trying to drill the
holes as close to the corner as possible to avoid the cable having to do a
dog-leg. All the holes would have to be big enough to take an RJ45 plug
because I don't fancy the hassle of trying to attach one to bare ends of all
the cores in Cat 5 - I tried it once, having bought a special crimping tool,
and I wasted five plugs (and a shortened the cable a bit each time) trying
to get a good connection.

Telephone cable is thin enough to push down the edge of carpets and under
the metal strip in each doorway, and then up the side to he stairs, but Cat
5 is a bit too thick for that.

>> The 3 components talk to each other using some wireless protocol, or
>> other - but not WiFi.
>
> Probably the normal wireless stat (and hundreds of other things) on
> 433 MHz(?) the stat only has to signal "Hi it's me, switch [on |
> off]", probably to the hub so it can tell the remote server and the
> local control switch (receiver) the expected system state.

Yes I imagine it's 433 MHz wireless, as for the connection between my
weather station base unit and the sensor unit in the garden.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 16:52:02 -0000, NY wrote:

>> Ta, all seems a bit complicated. I guess the hub is not integrated
>> with the receiver as running an ethernet cable is "too difficult"
for
>> the majority these days.
>
> Yes - it would involve drilling holes through walls and floors/ceilings

Hum these days of internal soil stacks generally provide a cable
route from loft to ground floor and all floors between.

> ... or else run the wiring along the edge of the carpet and up the

> corner of the living room (where it would be least conspicuous, though
> it may still not pass the Wife Acceptance Test)

Corners behind doors are a good place.

> I don't fancy the hassle of trying to attach one to bare ends of all
> the cores in Cat 5 - I tried it once, having bought a special crimping
> tool, and I wasted five plugs (and a shortened the cable a bit each
> time) trying to get a good connection.

With normal RJ45's you do have to get the protruding wire length just
right (it's about 1/2"). However there are "feed through" RJ45's now,
just strip back an inch or so of sheath sepearate and flatten the
wires into the correct order and thread into the plug. The plug has
holes at the end for the exccess wire. Crimp and trim, There is a
special crimper that trims the wires as well but you don't need it.
Google "ez rj45".

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Roger Mills]

On 16/02/2017 16:52, NY wrote:
> "Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
> news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net...
>>> There are 3 components in a Hive system - a hub, a receiver and a
>>> thermostat.
>>
>> Ta, all seems a bit complicated. I guess the hub is not integrated
>> with the receiver as running an ethernet cable is "too difficult" for
>> the majority these days.
>
> Yes - it would involve drilling holes through walls and floors/ceilings
> to take it from one room (the one with the boiler wiring to the former
> time switch) to another (the one with the router). I imagine most people
> (me included) would opt for Homeplug to convey Ethernet from one to the
> other, to make use of pre-existing house wiring - the ring mains.
>

The receiver would fit in place of the existing time switch - hopefully
using the existing wiring. The hub would normally be installed close to
the router. Hub and receiver should then talk to each other wirelessly
unless the size/structure of your house prevents this - in which case
you could indeed use homeplugs on the hub to router connection to enable
the hub to be closer to the receiver.

You shouldn't need to drill holes through walls, floors or ceilings.

[tim...]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:egk43s...@mid.individual.net...

> On 15/02/2017 17:33, Dave Liquorice wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:09:05 +0000, RJH wrote:
>>
>>> * You do need to site the hub and it needs to be in range of each
>>> router. And there's also a stat receiver (goes in place of your old
>>> stat).
>>
>> Can some one translate that into what a real system consists of?
>>
>
> There are 3 components in a Hive system - a hub, a receiver and a
> thermostat.
>
> The hub connects to an internet router by means of an ethernet cable, and
> talks to Hive's remote server - enabling remote control by a smartphone or
> computer app - which also talk to Hive's server.
>
> The receiver connects into the heating system in place of an existing
> programmer and room stat.
>
> The thermostat is battery powered and behaves much like any other wireless
> programmable thermostat.

why do they have to make it so complicated

why can't they put the heating controller inside the thermostat box and
simply put it in place of the current thermostat?

tim

[tim...]

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net...

> On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 22:50:33 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> There are 3 components in a Hive system - a hub, a receiver and a
>> thermostat.
>
> Ta, all seems a bit complicated. I guess the hub is not integrated
> with the receiver as running an ethernet cable is "too difficult" for
> the majority these days.

people don't like messy cables running around their walls

tim

[Graham.]

That's true, but I'm prepared to stick my neck out and suggest there
was nothing wrong with NY's technique, what he was probably doing
wrong was using solid core cable, with RJ45 plugs designed for
stranded core cable.

It's a very common mistake, and often made by cablers who should know
better.

Most cable sold is solid, and it's what you'll get if you don't
specify either. Normal RJ45 plugs have blades that are axial to the
wire, they pierce the insulation then enmesh themselves into the
stranded core making a sound connection. With solid core, the tendency
is for them to fracture the core making a poor contact, or no contact
at all.

You can get special plugs for solid cable, the blades are still axial,
but are subtly pre-formed (bent) so as to slip either side of the core
rather than cut into it
I would expect these plugs work reasonably well with stranded cable
too, but I doubt that DIY sheds stock them.
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[NY]

"tim..." <tims_n...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:o84se9$csv$1...@dont-email.me...

> why can't they put the heating controller inside the thermostat box and
> simply put it in place of the current thermostat?

That would be a good idea. Short out the timer contacts rather than shorting
out the thermostat contacts.

The only problem is for people like us who have a second controlled
circuit - for hot water. Although we have a combi boiler which could be left
permanently on, with the boiler only being switched on when a tap was
opened, out boiler also pre-heats some water which is kept within the boiler
housing, to give instant hot water while the boiler is heating fresh water
from the rising main, and we would not want that tank to be kept hot (with
consequent switching on and off of the boiler) 24/7. So that functionality
was also controlled by the same timer (though different programs) as the
central heating system.

Therefore we needed a dual-circuit Hive and so a Hive at the room thermostat
would not be able to control the hot water system because there would not be
any wiring.

Although three boxes (thermostat, hub and receiver) seems OTT, I don't think
there is any way of reducing the box count without layiung of additional
cables between receiver and thermostat and/or router.

[NY]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:egm68e...@mid.individual.net...

Yes, I was answering the suggestion that the hub and receiver (timer) could
be combined into one unit and that it would be "too difficult for the
majority" to run Ethernet cable between router and hub/receiver.

I was pointing out that in my house, running such an Ethernet cable would be
a major exercise involving much drilling, as the alternative is to take a
very long way round via the staircase, running Cat 5 along skirting boards
and up the side of the staircase at tread level.

Likewise if I'd wanted fit my own phone extension from the master socket to
the router.

[RJH]

I don't follow - you can just hang the hub off the router. I use a 15cm
ehternet cable. Why would you need to dig up the house to do that?!



--
Cheers, Rob

[Andy Burns]

RJH wrote:

> NY wrote:
>
>> I was answering the suggestion that the hub and receiver (timer)
>> could be combined into one unit and that it would be "too difficult for
>> the majority" to run Ethernet cable between router and hub/receiver.
>

> I don't follow - you can just hang the hub off the router. I use a 15cm
> ehternet cable. Why would you need to dig up the house to do that?!

As it is, you don't. The suggestion was to combine the receiver and the
hub, so then you'd need a cable from somewhere near the boiler, to
wherever the router was installed.

[Roger Mills]

There are a few problems with that.

The receiver needs a minimum of permanent live, switched live and
neutral. Depending on what sort of thermostat you're replacing, you may
or may not have all of those. You *certainly* won't have any hot water
control wires in your room stat so, if you want the Hive to control the
heating of your stored hot water, you can't simply replace the room stat
with the receiver.

The receiver is designed to replace an existing programmer and, with any
luck, will fit onto the existing programmer's wall plate without
requiring any re-wiring (except for linking out the room stat). The
existing programmer is effectively made redundant by the Hive. If you
keep it, you'll have to set both channels (if also controlling water) to
permanently on rather than timed - and it will be consuming (a small
amount of) electricity unnecessarily.

In any event, Hive's thermostat is wireless - so you don't necessarily
have to site it where the room stat was. You can even move it from room
to room if you wish (if you buy the optional stand, or make your own).

Another consideration is that Hive can automate other things besides the
heating - lights and power points, etc. For that, you need the hub and
the appropriate accessories. So if the hub were integral with the
receiver and/or thermostat - as suggested by some - that wouldn't be any
use for people who wanted to use Hive just to automate non-heating
equipment.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 19:10:22 +0000, Graham. wrote:

> That's true, but I'm prepared to stick my neck out and suggest there
> was nothing wrong with NY's technique, what he was probably doing
> wrong was using solid core cable, with RJ45 plugs designed for
> stranded core cable.

"the wrong sort of plug" hasn't been a problem here. B-) Thats
stranded plug onto solid wire. Wires sneakly swaping position and
looking right before crimping is another matter.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 18:55:04 -0000, tim... wrote:

>> Ta, all seems a bit complicated. I guess the hub is not integrated
>> with the receiver as running an ethernet cable is "too difficult"
for
>> the majority these days.
>
> people don't like messy cables running around their walls

Cable stapled (not p clipped) along the corner between to of skirting
and wall and painted to match the skirting(*) soon becomes
"invisible". In the grooves of Ogee profile is also a good hidden in
plain sight place. Failing that the skirting shouldn't be in contact
with the floor, there should be a gap just large enough to take a
Cat5 cable.

(*) Does require painted skirting, wouldn't work in some parts of
this place with varnished skirting. But that part is flood wired with
Cat5 and coax...

--
Cheers
Dave.

[RJH]

Got you, thanks.

--
Cheers, Rob

[NY]

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net...

> Failing that the skirting shouldn't be in contact with the floor, there
> should be a gap just large enough to take a Cat5 cable.

I've never seen that. In my house (1930s terrace) the bathroom has exposed
floorboards and the skirting goes right down to the floorboards. Pulling
back a bit of fitted carpet in one of the other rooms shows the same -
either no gap or else a gap of only about a millimetre. Maybe the leaving of
a gap is a feature of newer houses. Is the gap there for any specific
purpose (eg for routing cables!) or what? I presume it's not present in
houses with exposed flooring because it would look naff. Having said that,
exposed flooring may well be laid on top of existing wooden or concrete
flooring which would raise the level a bit and hide the gap.

Anyway, the problem comes when you need to take the cable from one room into
the next - unless there's also a similar gap where the door frame reaches
the floor.

[www.GymRatZ.co.uk]

On 15/02/2017 22:25, DerbyBorn wrote:
> don't understand - is the a disaster if the heating comes on when no-one is
> home. versus letting the house get stone cold?

Exactly.
It's a classic example of scamming the gullible that have been
brainwashed into believing everything that comes through the
mind-control box is truth and must be obeyed to lead a "happy life"

A more believable and useful concept would be being able to control the
boiler temperature remotely not the room 'stat.... oh wait, that's
already possible, fully automated without human intervention it's called
"weather compensation"

[Roger Mills]

On 17/02/2017 10:27, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
> On 15/02/2017 22:25, DerbyBorn wrote:
>> don't understand - is the a disaster if the heating comes on when no-one is
>> home. versus letting the house get stone cold?
>
> Exactly.
> It's a classic example of scamming the gullible that have been
> brainwashed into believing everything that comes through the
> mind-control box is truth and must be obeyed to lead a "happy life"
>

That's a rather cynical view!

It's basic physics that you use less energy when the house is colder -
so there's no point in heating it when there's no-one there.

It *would* be a financial disaster if my holiday flat were heated all
the time - including the three weeks or so every month when it's unoccupied!

[NY]

"www.GymRatZ.co.uk" <0845.86...@GymRatZ.Gym.Equipment> wrote in message
news:o86j30$msk$1...@dont-email.me...

It depends where the boiler is situated. Ours is outside. It has a frost
stat which prevents the water in the boiler from freezing but doesn't keep
the house warm enough for pipes not to freeze or fridges and deep freezes
not to stop working. For that you need a room stat, set to a suitable
temperature.

When we went away for several weeks over Christmas we set the room stat to
about 10 degrees. As far as we know, the heating never came on because the
house temp always remained above this, varying slightly depending on whether
there was any sun. The fact that we are the middle house of a terrace may
have helped - a bit of heat from the two houses wither side.

It was nice to get off the ship in Southampton, turn up the heating remotely
to 20 degrees, and have a nice warm house for when we got back several hours
later. Before Hive, we'd probably have left the heating on a higher
temperature so the house warmed up more quickly when we got back.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <o86j30$msk$1...@dont-email.me>,

Wonder if those who pay 100 quid a year to rent the Hive system from BG
actually save 100 quid's worth of gas? Somehow, I doubt it.

--
*Never kick a cow pat on a hot day *

[charles]

In article <O8adnU7lwY_ISjvF...@brightview.co.uk>, NY

Or, you have a "programmable" thermostat, as we have, that allows me to set
x days of holidays.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[charles]

In article <ego2pa...@mid.individual.net>, Roger Mills

<watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 17/02/2017 10:27, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
> > On 15/02/2017 22:25, DerbyBorn wrote:
> >> don't understand - is the a disaster if the heating comes on when
> >> no-one is home. versus letting the house get stone cold?
> >
> > Exactly. It's a classic example of scamming the gullible that have been
> > brainwashed into believing everything that comes through the
> > mind-control box is truth and must be obeyed to lead a "happy life"
> >

> That's a rather cynical view!

> It's basic physics that you use less energy when the house is colder -
> so there's no point in heating it when there's no-one there.

> It *would* be a financial disaster if my holiday flat were heated all
> the time - including the three weeks or so every month when it's
> unoccupied!

daughter ansd son in law let their house (work provides them with
accomodiation). A few years ago - for Christmas, the tenants went back to
Spain and turned off the heating before they left. They returned to find
water evrywhere - burst pipes! It took 6 months to get the house back to an
inhabitable state.

[NY]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:ego2pa...@mid.individual.net...

> On 17/02/2017 10:27, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
>> On 15/02/2017 22:25, DerbyBorn wrote:
>>> don't understand - is the a disaster if the heating comes on when no-one
>>> is
>>> home. versus letting the house get stone cold?
>>
>> Exactly.
>> It's a classic example of scamming the gullible that have been
>> brainwashed into believing everything that comes through the
>> mind-control box is truth and must be obeyed to lead a "happy life"
>>
>
> That's a rather cynical view!
>
> It's basic physics that you use less energy when the house is colder - so
> there's no point in heating it when there's no-one there.
>
> It *would* be a financial disaster if my holiday flat were heated all the
> time - including the three weeks or so every month when it's unoccupied!

I imagine that in cold weather, there is a break-even point such that if the
house is unoccupied for fewer than a certain number of days per month, it is
cheaper to leave the heating on, rather than have to heat up the house from
cold. It takes a lot longer for the house to *feel* warm than it does for
the air temp to get to the correct level, presumably because the walls take
longer to heat than the air and so "radiate coldness" (absorb heat) even
after the air is up to temp.

We've seen that with our holiday cottage which is unheated (apart from a
frost stat at 5 deg) over the winter. When we first go there in the spring,
even when the outside temperature is maybe 10-15 degrees, it's like going
into a deep freeze. Heating and a coal stove gets the house up to temp in
the time it takes to go out to the pub for an evening meal, but the house
*feels* cold for a day or so after that until the stone walls, mattresses on
the beds, cushions on the sofa etc have absorbed heat and are also at that
air temp.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <O8adnU7lwY_ISjvF...@brightview.co.uk>,
NY <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> It was nice to get off the ship in Southampton, turn up the heating
> remotely to 20 degrees, and have a nice warm house for when we got back
> several hours later. Before Hive, we'd probably have left the heating
> on a higher temperature so the house warmed up more quickly when we got
> back.

My Viessmann controller allowed you to set things for a holiday long
before Hive was thought of.

--
*I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe*

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ego2pa...@mid.individual.net>,
Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 17/02/2017 10:27, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
> > On 15/02/2017 22:25, DerbyBorn wrote:
> >> don't understand - is the a disaster if the heating comes on when no-one is
> >> home. versus letting the house get stone cold?
> >
> > Exactly.
> > It's a classic example of scamming the gullible that have been
> > brainwashed into believing everything that comes through the
> > mind-control box is truth and must be obeyed to lead a "happy life"
> >

> That's a rather cynical view!

Not really.

> It's basic physics that you use less energy when the house is colder -
> so there's no point in heating it when there's no-one there.

Depends on your priorities. Is it more important to have it at a
comfortable temperature when you arrive home?

> It *would* be a financial disaster if my holiday flat were heated all
> the time - including the three weeks or so every month when it's
> unoccupied!

Yehbut the ads ain't aimed at those with holiday flats. They are aimed at
those for use in their sole accomadation.

--
*I have my own little world - but it's OK...they know me here*

[Tricky Dicky]

Thanks for all the responses. I have decided to go with Hive as I am already changing my programmable wired thermostat for a wireless type, with the proposed one already coming in at £120+ I might as well go for the extra cost of the Hive self fit version and get the additional functionality. We already operate schedules on the the existing stat and for most instances of our lifestyle they do other than we occasionally boost by an extra hour if staying up late. It will add convenience to be able to either turn down or up the heating should plans change whilst we are out.

I have looked at the wiring arrangement for our combi boiler and the reciever and it is straight forward nothing that I can see justifying getting BG or approved installer in.

With regards Cat5e wiring round the house, at our last house we had a wired network where I could get under floorboards or utilise cupboards to route the wiring. One room due to having a part solid floor meant I had to resort to Powerline and i can say it worked very well, used for downloading to the Sky box. My SiL has been fitting CCTV using an NVR. He is using Powerline to connect the cameras to the NVR and provide power to the cameras using PoE so no mass of unsightly cables just one Cat 5e cable coming through the wall from the camera plugged into a Powerline unit in the nearest socket. The video feed is excellent.

Richard

[DerbyBorn]

> Or, you have a "programmable" thermostat, as we have, that allows me
> to set x days of holidays.
>

+1. I never have it set lower than 15degrees when we are away. the holiday
mode is a great feature.

[tim...]

"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net...

> On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 18:55:04 -0000, tim... wrote:
>
>>> Ta, all seems a bit complicated. I guess the hub is not integrated
>>> with the receiver as running an ethernet cable is "too difficult"
> for
>>> the majority these days.
>>
>> people don't like messy cables running around their walls
>
> Cable stapled (not p clipped) along the corner between to of skirting
> and wall and painted to match the skirting(*) soon becomes
> "invisible".

not with my eyes it doesn't

however "professionally" done, it always looks a fucking mess

YMMV

tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <o86u7l$c5$1...@dont-email.me>,

Tend to agree. I spend considerable time and money restoring the various
mouldings in this Victorian house. Not going to spoil them by adding
surface wiring anywhere.

--
*Never miss a good chance to shut up *

[Roger Mills]

That's not too big a risk in my case because we always turn the water
off - limiting the amount which could escape - and the surrounding flats
are occupied.

It would be useful though to be able to monitor the temperature in the
flat remotely during very cold weather, and turn the heating on if
necessary.

[Roger Mills]

On 17/02/2017 11:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article<O8adnU7lwY_ISjvF...@brightview.co.uk>,
> NY<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> It was nice to get off the ship in Southampton, turn up the heating
>> remotely to 20 degrees, and have a nice warm house for when we got back
>> several hours later. Before Hive, we'd probably have left the heating
>> on a higher temperature so the house warmed up more quickly when we got
>> back.
>
> My Viessmann controller allowed you to set things for a holiday long
> before Hive was thought of.
>

So does my Honeywell programmable stat - which is fine if you know
exactly when you'll be returning - but not very useful if you don't.

[Roger Mills]

Our flat is surrounded by other flats which are more or less permanently
occupied, so the whole building doesn't cool in the way which you describe.

We arrived at the flat at lunchtime on Tuesday (3 days ago) after an
absence of 3 weeks during which the heating was off. We turned the
heating on and then went out for the afternoon. By teatime it was nice
and cosy - using *far* less gas than we would have done if the heating
had been left on for 3 weeks.

[Andy Burns]

Roger Mills wrote:

> It would be useful though to be able to monitor the temperature in the
> flat remotely during very cold weather, and turn the heating on if
> necessary.

Fit a frost-stat and let it do the job for you?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <egosh0...@mid.individual.net>,

Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > My Viessmann controller allowed you to set things for a holiday long
> > before Hive was thought of.
> >

> So does my Honeywell programmable stat - which is fine if you know
> exactly when you'll be returning - but not very useful if you don't.

I'd think not many go on holiday without knowing more or less when they're
returning. ;-)

For Hive to be worth it for me, it would have to save its cost.

(Actually it would be useless, as I don't have conventional thermostats
anyway. Both room and water have sensors which go to the boiler processor.)

--
*Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank machines?

[Rod Speed]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5610117...@davenoise.co.uk...

> In article <egosh0...@mid.individual.net>,
> Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > My Viessmann controller allowed you to set things for a holiday long
>> > before Hive was thought of.
>> >
>
>> So does my Honeywell programmable stat - which is fine if you know
>> exactly when you'll be returning - but not very useful if you don't.
>
> I'd think not many go on holiday without
> knowing more or less when they're returning. ;-)

I have on a number of occasions.

> For Hive to be worth it for me, it would have to save its cost.

More fool you. What matters for most of us is if its useful on some
occasions.

[RJH]

On 18/02/2017 00:48, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <egosh0...@mid.individual.net>,
> Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> My Viessmann controller allowed you to set things for a holiday long
>>> before Hive was thought of.
>>>
>
>> So does my Honeywell programmable stat - which is fine if you know
>> exactly when you'll be returning - but not very useful if you don't.
>
> I'd think not many go on holiday without knowing more or less when they're
> returning. ;-)
>

I'd doubt you could plan it to the hour - which is the point.

> For Hive to be worth it for me, it would have to save its cost.
>

I'm not convinced at all about the cost savings of much of the IoT
gubbins. If you rationalise it that way I think it's highly unlikely
you'll adopt.

It's a convenience/gadget lust/bragging rights/techphile/high disposable
income/curiosity/social-interactive thing of things.


--
Cheers, Rob

[ARW]

On 18/02/2017 00:48, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article <egosh0...@mid.individual.net>,
> Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> My Viessmann controller allowed you to set things for a holiday long
>>> before Hive was thought of.
>>>
>
>> So does my Honeywell programmable stat - which is fine if you know
>> exactly when you'll be returning - but not very useful if you don't.
>
> I'd think not many go on holiday without knowing more or less when they're
> returning. ;-)

So not much use for drug mules then?


--
Adam

[ARW]

My parents holiday apartment is the middle floor with 3 sides exposed to
the elements and one side to an unheated communal stairwell.

We have been taking some notes over the winter as to the temperature
(internal and external) when we arrive (we leave the room stat in the
apartment at 10 deg for insurance purposes). The apartment below has
been unoccupied for several months but recently was sold and became
occupied.


We have calculated that the heat from below adds 3 deg to my parents
property when it is unoccupied as it has a concrete floor and the heat
from below is making the concrete floor act as a storage heater.

--
Adam

[Rod Speed]

"ARW" <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ACTpA.495031$9Y7.4...@fx27.am4...

So your problem is clearly genetic }-(

[Roger Mills]

On 18/02/2017 00:48, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article<egosh0...@mid.individual.net>,
> Roger Mills<watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> My Viessmann controller allowed you to set things for a holiday long
>>> before Hive was thought of.
>>>
>
>> So does my Honeywell programmable stat - which is fine if you know
>> exactly when you'll be returning - but not very useful if you don't.
>
> I'd think not many go on holiday without knowing more or less when they're
> returning. ;-)
>

In the general case, that is true. But not always in the case of
visiting my holiday flat. We generally come here for a days each month,
planned in advance - in which case your solution would normally work.
But we had to cancel our planned visit in February last year. If, when
we left in January, we had used holiday mode to tell it to come on for
the scheduled visit in February, the result would have been that it
would have been on continuously until we eventually arrived in March!

I accept that our requirements are somewhat non-standard.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <o88jd3$c0n$1...@dont-email.me>,

RJH <patch...@gmx.com> wrote:
> On 18/02/2017 00:48, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article <egosh0...@mid.individual.net>,
> > Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> My Viessmann controller allowed you to set things for a holiday long
> >>> before Hive was thought of.
> >>>
> >
> >> So does my Honeywell programmable stat - which is fine if you know
> >> exactly when you'll be returning - but not very useful if you don't.
> >
> > I'd think not many go on holiday without knowing more or less when
> > they're returning. ;-)
> >

> I'd doubt you could plan it to the hour - which is the point.

> > For Hive to be worth it for me, it would have to save its cost.

That is the point to me. BG are advertising it as something they install
and you rent from them. at 9 quid a month. Or near 100 a year. That quite
a lot of gas.

> I'm not convinced at all about the cost savings of much of the IoT
> gubbins. If you rationalise it that way I think it's highly unlikely
> you'll adopt.

> It's a convenience/gadget lust/bragging rights/techphile/high disposable
> income/curiosity/social-interactive thing of things.

I love gadgets. But ain't going to buy one I really can't see a use for.

Roger has certainly made the case for one in his particular circumstances.
I was hoping others might say they find it very useful - for the things it
is advertised for.

--
*War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

[ARW]

Or just leave the room stat at 10 deg with the CH on.



--
Adam

[ARW]

On 17/02/2017 18:15, Roger Mills wrote:

> Our flat is surrounded by other flats which are more or less permanently
> occupied, so the whole building doesn't cool in the way which you describe.
>
> We arrived at the flat at lunchtime on Tuesday (3 days ago) after an
> absence of 3 weeks during which the heating was off.








> We turned the heating on and then went out for the afternoon.

Does that mean that you went to the pub for a couple of beers and a meal:-)?





--
Adam

[Roger Mills]

That sort of thing. But we could have eaten in much more cheaply if the
flat had been warm when we arrived.

[Roger Mills]

Could do that, but it would then probably be on more than necessary.
Ideally I just put it on for an hour or two if there were a prolonged
cold spell. So having remote control would be better.

[tim...]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:egr2l3...@mid.individual.net...

> On 18/02/2017 12:35, ARW wrote:
>> On 17/02/2017 18:15, Roger Mills wrote:
>>
>>> Our flat is surrounded by other flats which are more or less permanently
>>> occupied, so the whole building doesn't cool in the way which you
>>> describe.
>>>
>>> We arrived at the flat at lunchtime on Tuesday (3 days ago) after an
>>> absence of 3 weeks during which the heating was off.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> We turned the heating on and then went out for the afternoon.
>>
>> Does that mean that you went to the pub for a couple of beers and a
>> meal:-)?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> That sort of thing. But we could have eaten in much more cheaply if the
> flat had been warm when we arrived.

you could have sat with your coat on

tim

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <o89lrp$hjt$1...@dont-email.me>,

tim... <tims_n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > That sort of thing. But we could have eaten in much more cheaply if
> > the flat had been warm when we arrived.

> you could have sat with your coat on

Or a fan heater in the kitchen until the cooker takes over heating the
room? ;-)

--
*Nostalgia isn't what is used to be.

[Roger Mills]

Yes, but SWMBO wouldn't have been very impressed - especially on
Valentine's day!

[Rod Speed]

"tim..." <tims_n...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:o89lrp$hjt$1...@dont-email.me...

Much more convenient to be able to turn it on remotely.

Wonder how long it will be before we are shaking
our heads at this sort of discussion because its all
remote controllable and completely secure too.

I ended up in hospital and got one of the neighbours
to get some stuff from the house for me. They managed
to forget to lock the front door when they left. Fortunately
another come to visit, found the door unlocked with no
sign of me anywhere. Fortunately they had enough sense
to ask one of the other neighbours they knew what was
happening and they locked it up for me.

None of that would have happened if I could do stuff
remotely and check it was locked after the first one had
left and lock it remotely when they had forgotten to do that.

[Graham Nye]

On 2017-02-16 16:52, NY wrote:
> "Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote in message
> news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@news.individual.net...

>>> There are 3 components in a Hive system - a hub, a receiver and a
>>> thermostat.
>>
>>> The 3 components talk to each other using some wireless protocol, or
>>> other - but not WiFi.
>>
>> Probably the normal wireless stat (and hundreds of other things) on
>> 433 MHz(?) the stat only has to signal "Hi it's me, switch [on |
>> off]", probably to the hub so it can tell the remote server and the
>> local control switch (receiver) the expected system state.
>
> Yes I imagine it's 433 MHz wireless, as for the connection between my
> weather station base unit and the sensor unit in the garden.

Hive uses ZigBee on 2.4 GHz. It's intended to be a simpler, lower power
alternative to bluetooth or wifi. The hub is a wired Ethernet to ZigBee
bridge.

(ZigBee can also use 868 MHz but the current v2 hub uses a rf6555 RF
transceiver - a 2.4 GHz part.)

Some further reading for those who like technicalities:
http://hivehomeforum.co.uk/?page_id=21
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZigBee
http://www.smartofthehome.com/tag/zigbee/
http://www.rfmd.com/store/rf6555.html

I have a British Gas sampler system consisting of a hub and a couple of
(not very) smart lights. Presumably British Gas hope I'll lash out
a couple of hundred quid to make my home heating vulnerable to Internet
outages, dodgy firmware upgrades and the withdrawal of the servers if
Hive is insufficiently profitable.

I can use an app or a website to set the brightness of the lamps. I can
choose a brightness level and it then takes the lamps a second or two to
react. You can't brighten or dim them in real time as you vary a control.

If they lose power they forget their brightness setting and come back on
at full brightness when the supply is restored. You can control them
remotely which could have security benefits but then so would a cheap
plug-in mains timer. (Frankly, given the levels of faff using an app/
website rather than a light switch, you'd hardly want to control them
locally.)


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

[James Wilkinson Sword]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 11:58:26 -0000, Tricky Dicky <tricky...@sky.com> wrote:

> I want to change and resite our present programmable thermostat with a wireless type. The one I have been considering is not all that much cheaper than the self install version of Hive. I was wondering if anyone has any experience of the system and can answer a few questions.
>
> Is the system straight forward to self install? BG's website is full of dire warnings that it needs installing by them or an approved and qualified installer. Is it a case of them trying to drum up business? From what I have seen of the installation information it looks pretty straight forward?
>
> Are there any other on going costs involved? It seems to access with your phone you need an "account" with BG. Is this access charged for other than your phone usage? If free now is it potentially chargeable in the future?
>
> Finally is it worth it or is it just a load of pretentious bollix and I would be better sticking to what I was considering before and wait for some smarter technology to emerge?
>
> Richard

What is the point of this technology? Set your thermostat to the temperature you like, then never touch it again.

--
101 Dalmatians and Peter Pan are the only two Disney animated features in which both the parents are present and don't die throughout the movie.

[Graham Nye]

On 2017-02-16 19:10, Graham. wrote:

> That's true, but I'm prepared to stick my neck out and suggest there
> was nothing wrong with NY's technique, what he was probably doing
> wrong was using solid core cable, with RJ45 plugs designed for
> stranded core cable.
>
> It's a very common mistake, and often made by cablers who should know
> better.
>
> Most cable sold is solid, and it's what you'll get if you don't
> specify either. Normal RJ45 plugs have blades that are axial to the
> wire, they pierce the insulation then enmesh themselves into the
> stranded core making a sound connection. With solid core, the tendency
> is for them to fracture the core making a poor contact, or no contact
> at all.
>
> You can get special plugs for solid cable, the blades are still axial,
> but are subtly pre-formed (bent) so as to slip either side of the core
> rather than cut into it
> I would expect these plugs work reasonably well with stranded cable
> too, but I doubt that DIY sheds stock them.

To build on this reply, the professional convention is to run fixed cabling
in solid core cable terminated in sockets with (solid core compatible)
insulation displacement connectors (idc) and to connect the sockets with
patch cords made with stranded core conductors terminated in (stranded
core compatible) idc plugs.

So solid core cable goes to a socket and stranded core cable goes to a
plug. If you want to do something different you'll need to look for
non-standard sockets or plugs. Or you might want to reconsider what
you're up to and stick with the standard. A common temptation is to
fit a plug on the end of a long fixed run to save fitting a socket
box and a patch cord. However if you run solid core cable out to a
device the conductors are more likely to fracture when moved. That's
why the convention is only to use solid core cable on fixed runs where
it won't be moved.


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

[ARW]

On 16/02/2017 00:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <egjkd7...@mid.individual.net>,
> Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't yet have any direct experience, but I've been researching it
>> with a view to installing a Hive system in my holiday flat. It would
>> have the advantage for me that, when I visit the flat in the winter (I'm
>> there now) I could turn on the heating remotely a few hours before
>> arriving rather than coming into a very cold place and having to heat it
>> from scratch. Since I have a stored hot water system, I could turn that
>> on remotely, too, but that's less important.
>
> Hmm. If I had a holiday flat which was unoccupied other than when I used
> it, I'd turn off things like water and electricity when not there.
>

Turning the electricity off would of course stop the heating (even if
only using a frost stat to control it) from working!

--
Adam

[ARW]

On 16/02/2017 09:03, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 16/02/2017 00:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>> In article<egjkd7...@mid.individual.net>,
>> Roger Mills<watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't yet have any direct experience, but I've been researching it
>>> with a view to installing a Hive system in my holiday flat. It would
>>> have the advantage for me that, when I visit the flat in the winter (I'm
>>> there now) I could turn on the heating remotely a few hours before
>>> arriving rather than coming into a very cold place and having to heat it
>>> from scratch. Since I have a stored hot water system, I could turn that
>>> on remotely, too, but that's less important.
>>
>> Hmm. If I had a holiday flat which was unoccupied other than when I used
>> it, I'd turn off things like water and electricity when not there.
>>
>

> I do indeed turn the water off, but not the electricity because there's
> a fridge/freezer with food in it. The flat is in a converted house, the
> rest of which is occupied - so the areas above and below are heated for
> most of the time.

My parents new insurance policy for their holiday flat requires the
water to be turned off and the heating to be left on at 10 deg when the
place is unoccupied.

I fitted them a Surestop remote switch (the stop tap is under the sink
behind the usual crap). They are delighted with it.

My next job there is to add a second SKY TV cable. That means I have to
go up a ladder to the same hight as this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ_VU3Fb33k


I am not looking forward to fitting that.

--

Adam

[tim...]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:egresq...@mid.individual.net...

> On 18/02/2017 14:32, tim... wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:egr2l3...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 18/02/2017 12:35, ARW wrote:
>>>> On 17/02/2017 18:15, Roger Mills wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Our flat is surrounded by other flats which are more or less
>>>>> permanently
>>>>> occupied, so the whole building doesn't cool in the way which you
>>>>> describe.
>>>>>
>>>>> We arrived at the flat at lunchtime on Tuesday (3 days ago) after an
>>>>> absence of 3 weeks during which the heating was off.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> We turned the heating on and then went out for the afternoon.
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that you went to the pub for a couple of beers and a
>>>> meal:-)?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> That sort of thing. But we could have eaten in much more cheaply if
>>> the flat had been warm when we arrived.
>>
>> you could have sat with your coat on
>>
>> tim
>>
>>
>>
>
> Yes, but SWMBO wouldn't have been very impressed - especially on
> Valentine's day!

so wtf were you arguing about "could have done it cheaper" then?

tim

[Roger Mills]

It's true. She wouldn't have minded eating in - even on Valentine's day
- if the flat had been nice and cosy.

[Roger Mills]

On 19/02/2017 10:43, ARW wrote:
> On 16/02/2017 09:03, Roger Mills wrote:
>> On 16/02/2017 00:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>> In article<egjkd7...@mid.individual.net>,
>>> Roger Mills<watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I don't yet have any direct experience, but I've been researching it
>>>> with a view to installing a Hive system in my holiday flat. It would
>>>> have the advantage for me that, when I visit the flat in the winter
>>>> (I'm
>>>> there now) I could turn on the heating remotely a few hours before
>>>> arriving rather than coming into a very cold place and having to
>>>> heat it
>>>> from scratch. Since I have a stored hot water system, I could turn that
>>>> on remotely, too, but that's less important.
>>>
>>> Hmm. If I had a holiday flat which was unoccupied other than when I used
>>> it, I'd turn off things like water and electricity when not there.
>>>
>>
>> I do indeed turn the water off, but not the electricity because there's
>> a fridge/freezer with food in it. The flat is in a converted house, the
>> rest of which is occupied - so the areas above and below are heated for
>> most of the time.
>
> My parents new insurance policy for their holiday flat requires the
> water to be turned off and the heating to be left on at 10 deg when the
> place is unoccupied.
>

My insurance company tried that on for a year or two, but they've now
relented - presumably because it lost them too much business. Now they
simply require the water to be turned off when the flat is unoccupied
between November and March.

[ARW]

If it was nice and cosy when you arrived should you have just kissed
her, undressed her and then given her your Valentines present.


--
Adam

[Brian Reay]

On 15/02/17 11:58, Tricky Dicky wrote:
> I want to change and resite our present programmable thermostat with a wireless type. The one I have been considering is not all that much cheaper than the self install version of Hive. I was wondering if anyone has any experience of the system and can answer a few questions.
>
> Is the system straight forward to self install? BG's website is full of dire warnings that it needs installing by them or an approved and qualified installer. Is it a case of them trying to drum up business? From what I have seen of the installation information it looks pretty straight forward?
>
> Are there any other on going costs involved? It seems to access with your phone you need an "account" with BG. Is this access charged for other than your phone usage? If free now is it potentially chargeable in the future?
>
> Finally is it worth it or is it just a load of pretentious bollix and I would be better sticking to what I was considering before and wait for some smarter technology to emerge?
>
> Richard
>

While I'm a self confessed lover of 'gadgets' I'm wary of things like
this. It isn't that I don't trust them, I'm sure they can be made
reliable if they incorporate 'fall safe' systems. My concern is the
changes in technology and finding you have a system that, when something
fails, you need to totally replace, because the overall technology has
been superseded.

I'd be more tempted to look at what you want, or think you need, to
control, and look for self contained 'low tech' ways to do it which are
independent. For example. Do you really need to be able to control you
central heating remotely? What is wrong with a simple timer or timed
thermostat? Ditto for lights. A simple timer is all that is needed. Ok,
once in a while you may be home early/late and the heating isn't on or
it has been on a bit when it wasn't needed but is that a big deal?

A neighbour can control his lights, even to the point of the colour, via
his phone from the train. Wonderful. When he first had the system
installed I noticed his lights sometimes came on in 'funny colours'
around 'home time'. I don't see it now. Perhaps I don't notice it.
Perhaps it has broken. Perhaps the novelty has worn off. Perhaps his
wife, who is at home during the day as far as I know, didn't like it.

[Jim GM4DHJ ...]

"Brian Reay" <no...@m.com> wrote in message
news:ojanoc$9v1$1...@dont-email.me...

perhaps he is a fanny ......

[newshound]

I agree up to a point, but all of these things are getting cheaper and
easier to use. It would be pretty straightforward for a boiler to
connect to the wifi, so that you could check or change its state using
an app. Surely modern ones already contain all the necessary processing
power.

[Roger Mills]

On 02/07/2017 23:00, newshound wrote:
> On 2/18/2017 4:45 AM, RJH wrote:
>> On 18/02/2017 00:48, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>>> In article <egosh0...@mid.individual.net>,
>>> Roger Mills <watt....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> My Viessmann controller allowed you to set things for a holiday long
>>>>> before Hive was thought of.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>> So does my Honeywell programmable stat - which is fine if you know
>>>> exactly when you'll be returning - but not very useful if you don't.
>>>
>>> I'd think not many go on holiday without knowing more or less when
>>> they're
>>> returning. ;-)
>>>
>>
>> I'd doubt you could plan it to the hour - which is the point.
>>

By the normal definition of 'holiday', most people know when they will
be returning - and turning the heating on on the right day would be
sufficient, so the Honeywell digital stat with holiday mode is fine.

But I use mine the wrong way round! Mine controls the heating in my
holiday flat, and holiday mode would be used for when I am at my main
home. I don't always know exactly when I'll be going back to the flat -
so the remote control feature of Hive is very useful. It would also be
useful for people working irregular and unpredictable hours - enabling
them to turn the heating on shortly before getting home.

The downside of Hive cf Honeywell is that Hive doesn't contain any
P.I.D. logic - so there's quite a lot of overshoot and hysteresis.

>>> For Hive to be worth it for me, it would have to save its cost.
>>>
>>

I think it would be difficult to make an economic case for buying a Hive
unless you really did keep very irregular hours. I bought mine for
convenience and the remote monitoring capability.

[NY]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:esvfh9...@mid.individual.net...

> The downside of Hive cf Honeywell is that Hive doesn't contain any P.I.D.
> logic - so there's quite a lot of overshoot and hysteresis.

Since we upgraded from a conventional timer and thermostat to Hive, we've
noticed a lot *less* hysteresis: the inside temperature remains far more
constant - apart from when the heat of the sun heats the house above the
desired temperature, and central heating can't work in reverse (ice cold
water in the radiators? :-) ) to cool the house down.

Looking at the Hive's records for yesterday, the temperature varied between
a minimum of 22.6 at 0600 and a maximum of 23.2 for 1700-2100. That's with
the Hive set to require 20.5 between 0530 and 2200 and 18 between 2200 and
0530.

The inside temperature as recorded by my weather station fluctuated a bit
more because an afternoon peak (though still within a range of about 2
degrees) but its sensor is on my desk in a south-west-facing room (though
shielded from direct sun) so the sun may have warmed the air in that room a
bit more in the afternoon.

Looking at weather station figures for February, when heating by the sun is
less likely to be an issue, I can see the temp has varied between 21.5 and
22 in three cycles over the period 0900-2200, with a gradual fall to 19.5
from 2200-0800 when the Hive has requested a temp of 18 but the house hasn't
quite cooled that far before the next day's daytime programme began.


Maybe a Honeywell, with PID logic, can maintain an even tighter tolerance
than +/- 0.25 degrees, as we had in the February figures.

[tim...]

"NY" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:Y4GdnS40kpcnEvfE...@brightview.co.uk...

> "Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:esvfh9...@mid.individual.net...
>> The downside of Hive cf Honeywell is that Hive doesn't contain any P.I.D.
>> logic - so there's quite a lot of overshoot and hysteresis.
>
> Since we upgraded from a conventional timer and thermostat to Hive, we've
> noticed a lot *less* hysteresis: the inside temperature remains far more
> constant - apart from when the heat of the sun heats the house above the
> desired temperature, and central heating can't work in reverse (ice cold
> water in the radiators? :-) ) to cool the house down.
>
> Looking at the Hive's records for yesterday, the temperature varied
> between a minimum of 22.6 at 0600 and a maximum of 23.2 for 1700-2100.
> That's with the Hive set to require 20.5 between 0530 and 2200 and 18
> between 2200 and 0530.

but you don't need an internet controlled device to do that

you just need a good quality static thermostat

tim

[NY]

"tim..." <tims_n...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:okfi43$591$1...@dont-email.me...

Are normal thermostats are precise as that. With the static thermostat, we
were getting cycles of about 3 degrees (+/- 1.5) through the day. I'd
assumed that this was normal for mechanical bimetallic thermostats. No doubt
a modern thermistor-driven thermostat, switching the boiler on and off by a
little relay in the stat, would be a lot better - the same technology as
Hive probably uses.

How accurate can the Honeywell with PID maintain the temperature, if it is
better than Hive because that has "quite a lot of overshoot and hysteresis"?

Presumably any electronic thermostat can use whatever level of hysteresis
that you like (user-settable). Is the advantage of PID that it can
anticipate how long it will take for the radiators to warm up when the
boiler is turned on and to cool down when the boiler switches off, and apply
*negative* hysteresis to turn off the boiler *before* the temperature rises
to the cutoff setting and conversely for switching in on when the
temperature falls, to compensate for "radiator lag".

[Roger Mills]

On 16/07/2017 13:36, NY wrote:

>
> Are normal thermostats are precise as that. With the static thermostat,
> we were getting cycles of about 3 degrees (+/- 1.5) through the day. I'd
> assumed that this was normal for mechanical bimetallic thermostats. No
> doubt a modern thermistor-driven thermostat, switching the boiler on and
> off by a little relay in the stat, would be a lot better - the same
> technology as Hive probably uses.
>

Mechanical thermostats have a couple of degrees or so of hysteresis.
Many seek to reduce that by incorporating "accelerator heaters" -
resistors which warm up when the stat is in the ON state, causing the
heating to be turned off a bit before the air temperature reaches the
set point.

Hive doesn't even do that. The heating is only turned off once the set
point is reached - so the hot radiators continue to increase the air
temperature, causing overshoot. In cold weather, mine often overshoots
by up to 1.5 degrees, then the heating is off for a long time while the
rooms cool naturally before the heating comes on again.

> How accurate can the Honeywell with PID maintain the temperature, if it
> is better than Hive because that has "quite a lot of overshoot and
> hysteresis"?
>

The Honeywell is better because its P.I.D. logic causes it to cycle the
heating on and off within the 'proportional' zone (a couple of degrees
either side of the setpoint) with the result that it doesn't overshoot.
Once mine has reached the setpoint, it just sits at that temperature,
cycling the heating on and off as necessary. [It only displays the
temperature to the nearest 0.5 degrees, so I suppose that there could be
variations of up to + or - 0.25 degrees which wouldn't show up].

> Presumably any electronic thermostat can use whatever level of
> hysteresis that you like (user-settable). Is the advantage of PID that
> it can anticipate how long it will take for the radiators to warm up
> when the boiler is turned on and to cool down when the boiler switches
> off, and apply *negative* hysteresis to turn off the boiler *before* the
> temperature rises to the cutoff setting and conversely for switching in
> on when the temperature falls, to compensate for "radiator lag".

Sort of - see what I wrote above.

[Chris J Dixon]

Roger Mills wrote:

>The Honeywell is better because its P.I.D. logic causes it to cycle the
>heating on and off within the 'proportional' zone (a couple of degrees
>either side of the setpoint) with the result that it doesn't overshoot.
>Once mine has reached the setpoint, it just sits at that temperature,
>cycling the heating on and off as necessary. [It only displays the
>temperature to the nearest 0.5 degrees, so I suppose that there could be
>variations of up to + or - 0.25 degrees which wouldn't show up].

The Honeywell is also set up to prevent the boiler from short
cycling.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.

[NY]

"Roger Mills" <watt....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:et1ctg...@mid.individual.net...

> Mechanical thermostats have a couple of degrees or so of hysteresis. Many
> seek to reduce that by incorporating "accelerator heaters" - resistors
> which warm up when the stat is in the ON state, causing the heating to be
> turned off a bit before the air temperature reaches the set point.
>
> Hive doesn't even do that. The heating is only turned off once the set
> point is reached - so the hot radiators continue to increase the air
> temperature, causing overshoot. In cold weather, mine often overshoots by
> up to 1.5 degrees, then the heating is off for a long time while the rooms
> cool naturally before the heating comes on again.

Interesting that your Hive gives you such a large amount of overshoot. For
me, both Hive's own temperature sensor and the one in my weather station
show that the temperature remains constant within about 1 degree (so
presumably +/- 0.5 degree of the required temperature). I imagine Hive must
have *some* hysteresis, or else it would turn on the boiler every time the
temperature dropped by one unit of the required temperature and turn it off
every time the temperature goes one unit over the required temperature - for
whatever granularity "unit" the temperature sensor has. Since Hive reports
temperatures to the nearest 0.1 deg, that may well be the granularity of the
sensor, so you've expect the boiler to by cycling fairly frequently if
(desired-0.1) deg turns it on and (desired+0.1) deg turns it off. Given that
Hive allows temperatures to go wider (eg +/- 0.5 deg) that is presumably the
amount of hysteresis that it built in, to reach a compromise between
accurate temperature control and frequent boiler cycling.

[Roger Mills]

On 16/07/2017 16:00, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> The Honeywell is better because its P.I.D. logic causes it to cycle the
>> heating on and off within the 'proportional' zone (a couple of degrees
>> either side of the setpoint) with the result that it doesn't overshoot.
>> Once mine has reached the setpoint, it just sits at that temperature,
>> cycling the heating on and off as necessary. [It only displays the
>> temperature to the nearest 0.5 degrees, so I suppose that there could be
>> variations of up to + or - 0.25 degrees which wouldn't show up].
>
> The Honeywell is also set up to prevent the boiler from short
> cycling.
>
> Chris

That's true - it has a configurable minimum 'on' time. I think the Hive
has something similar, but you can't adjust it. At any rate, if you turn
it on manually by pressing the button on the Receiver, and then try to
turn it off again, it stays on for a minute before actually going off.

[Capitol]

My Horstmann wall electronic thermostat does that with some clever
internal logic which appears to learn. Looks like a normal thermostat
with a control knob. Painless to install and operate.

[Roger Mills]

It may not have intentional hysteresis - i.e. different on and off
temperatures - but the overshoot provides 'effective' hysteresis because
the temperature goes on rising in the 'off' state, and the stat doesn't
switch on again until the temperature drops back down to the setpoint.

The amount of overshoot is probably determined by the capacity of the
radiators and how well insulated the building is, coupled with the
outside temperature - so won't be the same in all cases.

I only installed my Hive at the end of March this year, so it hasn't
seen any really cold weather. It's quite possible that the overshoot
will reduce when the heat losses are greater when it's really cold outside.