Imperial to metric radiator conversions.

[Roland Perry]

I've got an old central heating radiator where the bottom has rusted out
over the summer. As far as I can see the panel width is 50" and the
pipe-centres 53.5"

Everything for sale is measured in metric (I blame the EU!)

Is the best thing to do, getting one that's slightly wider/narrower, and
putting a wiggle in one of the pipes? They come up through holes in a
traditional boarded floor, and I don't want to start fiddling around
under the floor.

Screwfix are reticent about the dimensions of TRVs, in the sense of how
much they add to the width of the panel itself.
--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> I've got an old central heating radiator where the bottom has rusted out over
> the summer. As far as I can see the panel width is 50" and the pipe-centres 53.5"
>
> Everything for sale is measured in metric (I blame the EU!)
>
> Is the best thing to do, getting one that's slightly wider/narrower, and putting
> a wiggle in one of the pipes?

Many "modern" radiator fittings don't use a union type connection, but a stubby
tail of chromed 15mm pipe and an olive, you can get extension tails, so if you
replaced with a smaller rad you should be able to fit it in without wiggly bits.


I think Myson still make imperial sized radiators, don't tell the weights and
measures inspector ...

[Roland Perry]

In message <irtjll...@mid.individual.net>, at 12:49:06 on Sun, 3 Oct
2021, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> remarked:

I'm likely to be buying this from one of the local sheds, of which
Screwfix is the most obvious. Places like Plumbase and Wolsely appear
to recruit staff on their ability to be so rude to walk-up customers
they never come back.
--
Roland Perry

[Unknown]

Roland Perry expressed precisely :

> Is the best thing to do, getting one that's slightly wider/narrower, and
> putting a wiggle in one of the pipes? They come up through holes in a
> traditional boarded floor, and I don't want to start fiddling around under
> the floor.

If you buy narrower, you can buy adaptors of various lengths to fit in
the gap between radiator and the valve.

A wider rad will involve so modification of the pipework.

[Roland Perry]

In message <sjc7v7$4pa$1...@dont-email.me>, at 13:33:42 on Sun, 3 Oct 2021,
Harry Bloomfield <?.?@harrym1byt.plus.com.invalid> remarked:

>Roland Perry expressed precisely :
>> Is the best thing to do, getting one that's slightly wider/narrower,
>>and putting a wiggle in one of the pipes? They come up through holes
>>in a traditional boarded floor, and I don't want to start fiddling
>>around under the floor.
>
>If you buy narrower, you can buy adaptors of various lengths to fit in
>the gap between radiator and the valve.

Most of the valves I've seen screw into the body of the radiator. And
then exit downwards. Hence the need for a wiggle.

>A wider rad will involve so modification of the pipework.

--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Roland Perry wrote:

> Harry Bloomfield wrote:
>
>> If you buy narrower, you can buy adaptors of various lengths to fit in the gap
>> between radiator and the valve.
>
> Most of the valves I've seen screw into the body of the radiator.

But not directly

> And then exit downwards.

The longer tail pieces go in the horizontal section before the valve turns

[charles]

In article <NJdavVb1...@perry.uk>,

I've used both those, Wolsely as couple of days ago, never had a problem
like that.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[alan_m]

On 03/10/2021 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
> I've got an old central heating radiator where the bottom has rusted out
> over the summer. As far as I can see the panel width is 50" and the
> pipe-centres 53.5"
>
> Everything for sale is measured in metric (I blame the EU!)

I'm a few years retired and even in junior school I was taught SI units.

>
> Is the best thing to do, getting one that's slightly wider/narrower, and
> putting a wiggle in one of the pipes? They come up through holes in a
> traditional boarded floor, and I don't want to start fiddling around
> under the floor.
>
> Screwfix are reticent about the dimensions of TRVs, in the sense of how
> much they add to the width of the panel itself.

You can get adjustable length radiator tails.

Screwfix video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cBAui8-TCA

https://www.screwfix.com/p/bsp-male-x-15mm-compression-rigid-trv-extension-piece-65mm-2-pack/10954

For each radiator size SF do 3 variants

Single panel
Double panel single convector
Double panel double convector

On a, say 1000 x 600 radiator the Sible panel is rated at 0.948kW
whereas the double panel double convector at 1.76kW. You need to size
your radiator for heat output rating.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Unknown]

Roland Perry wrote on 03/10/2021 :
> Most of the valves I've seen screw into the body of the radiator. And then
> exit downwards. Hence the need for a wiggle.

The adaptors go in the port at the bottom of the rad, making up for the
gap. You buy enough of the sizes needed to make up the gap.

[newshound]

On 03/10/2021 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:

That's probably because they all seem to be different.

[Roland Perry]

In message <NcudneX5w_mlL8T8...@brightview.co.uk>, at
14:38:00 on Sun, 3 Oct 2021, newshound <news...@stevejqr.plus.com>
remarked:

But when you are looking at a particular one, it might be helpful.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <irtoq3...@mid.individual.net>, at 14:16:50 on Sun, 3 Oct
2021, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> remarked:

>On 03/10/2021 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>> I've got an old central heating radiator where the bottom has rusted
>>out over the summer. As far as I can see the panel width is 50" and
>>the pipe-centres 53.5"
>> Everything for sale is measured in metric (I blame the EU!)
>
>I'm a few years retired and even in junior school I was taught SI units.
>
>> Is the best thing to do, getting one that's slightly wider/narrower,
>>and putting a wiggle in one of the pipes? They come up through holes
>>in a traditional boarded floor, and I don't want to start fiddling
>>around under the floor.

>> Screwfix are reticent about the dimensions of TRVs, in the sense of
>>how much they add to the width of the panel itself.
>
>You can get adjustable length radiator tails.
>
>Screwfix video
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cBAui8-TCA
>
>https://www.screwfix.com/p/bsp-male-x-15mm-compression-rigid-trv-extensi
>on-piece-65mm-2-pack/10954

Thanks, that's the sort of thing I was hoping might come to the rescue
after posting here.

>For each radiator size SF do 3 variants
>
>Single panel
>Double panel single convector
>Double panel double convector
>
>On a, say 1000 x 600 radiator the Sible panel is rated at 0.948kW
>whereas the double panel double convector at 1.76kW. You need to size
>your radiator for heat output rating.

The heights are pretty much standard, and the width needs to match the
piping. The old one[s] - all throughout the house - are double panel
single convector, so probably will replace like-for-like.
--
Roland Perry

[Robin]

I've fitted several different brands/models and the distance between the
radiator and pipe has always been the same within a mm or so. I find
that wholly unsurprising as professionals aren't likely to carry spares
which can't be subbed for Drayton and Drayton clones. That wd also
explain why Screwfix don't bother with dimensions. But IMLE dimensions
are availabl;e if you search for the maker's data.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[John Rumm]

On 03/10/2021 13:41, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sjc7v7$4pa$1...@dont-email.me>, at 13:33:42 on Sun, 3 Oct 2021,
> Harry Bloomfield <?.?@harrym1byt.plus.com.invalid> remarked:
>> Roland Perry expressed precisely :
>>> Is the best thing to do, getting one that's slightly wider/narrower,
>>> and  putting a wiggle in one of the pipes? They come up through holes
>>> in a  traditional boarded floor, and I don't want to start fiddling
>>> around under  the floor.
>>
>> If you buy narrower, you can buy adaptors of various lengths to fit in
>> the gap between radiator and the valve.
>
> Most of the valves I've seen screw into the body of the radiator. And
> then exit downwards. Hence the need for a wiggle.

Yup, traditional style ones where the tail is has a half in BSPT thread
on the rad end and a 3/4" BSP male on the valve end are like that. For
those you would need to offset the pipe:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:CuprofitPushfitOnRadTail.jpg

(Example made up with a pushfit on the bottom to make a quick "live"
swap without draining down easy)

However many modern valves are no longer like that. They have the same
BSPT thread at the rad end, but are unthreaded at the other end - just
presenting 50mm or so of chromed 15mm copper pipe. The rad valve then
have 15mm compression fittings on both its input and its rad tail
connection. (and in fact most can be reversed so that you can orient the
TRV head to be horizontal as well as the more traditional vertical.

e.g.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/drayton-trv4-chrome-angled-trv-lockshield-15mm-x/945jr

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[alan_m]

And it also differs on the height so its not just the length of the
tails that need to be taken into consideration but the length of the
vertical pipe from the floor (if this is the way the pipe is routed)

The OP needs to go to the TRV manufactures site for the dimensions.

When I replaced old TRV on my system I found that I had to extend the
length of the vertical pipe using a straight 15mm coupling and a new
piece of pipe - actually shorted the existing pipe first to add a longer
piece so the the coupling didn't foul the TRV nut. Water was removed
from the pipe with a wet and dry vaccuum cleaner prior to soldering.

As the OP if fitting a new radiator the wall fixing brackets may be
different so the new fixings could be slightly higher or lower to
compensate for the new radiator and TVR connections being slightly
higher or lower than the existing connection.

On the other hand to fit a new TVR and lockshield valve he may/will have
to get the olives off the pipes because the nuts on the new
TVR/lockshield may not be compatible with the old. Method 1 shown in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBOf8T_waYw
may be the practical way of removing an olive in this situation -
perhaps using a hammer to hit the spanner.

[alan_m]

On 03/10/2021 15:06, Robin wrote:

> I've fitted several different brands/models and the distance between the
> radiator and pipe has always been the same within a mm or so.  I find
> that wholly unsurprising as professionals aren't likely to carry spares
> which can't be subbed for Drayton and Drayton clones.

It does rather depend on the age of the original. When I replaced very
old TRVs the difference of the dimensions compared to the modern devices
was enough to be a PITA.

[Roland Perry]

In message <pq2dneONEYdfIsT8...@brightview.co.uk>, at
15:35:45 on Sun, 3 Oct 2021, John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null>
remarked:

>https://www.screwfix.com/p/drayton-trv4-chrome-angled-trv-lockshield-15m
>m-x/945jr

£35 for just the valve! I need to lie down and recover.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <iru45t...@mid.individual.net>, at 17:30:51 on Sun, 3 Oct
2021, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> remarked:

>On 03/10/2021 15:06, Robin wrote:
>
>> I've fitted several different brands/models and the distance between
>>the radiator and pipe has always been the same within a mm or so.  I
>>find that wholly unsurprising as professionals aren't likely to carry
>>spares which can't be subbed for Drayton and Drayton clones.
>
>It does rather depend on the age of the original. When I replaced very
>old TRVs the difference of the dimensions compared to the modern
>devices was enough to be a PITA.

I suspect the installation I'm replacing is 20yrs old.

Having gone round various other radiators today, it appears at least two
others have seized thermostatic valves, so the scope of the project
keeps growing...
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Lamb]

In message <jS2hZ$pY4eW...@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
<rol...@perry.co.uk> writes

Free off and lubricate the plunger?

--
Tim Lamb

[alan_m]

Now £26

Some of radiators sold by SF are on special offer and the TRV and lock
shield are included in the price.

https://www.screwfix.com/c/heating-plumbing/radiators/cat830960

[John Rumm]

On 03/10/2021 18:49, Roland Perry wrote:

Other valves are available - it was just one that had a decent picture
to illustrate the point.

[Robin]

On 03/10/2021 18:53, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <iru45t...@mid.individual.net>, at 17:30:51 on Sun, 3 Oct
> 2021, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 03/10/2021 15:06, Robin wrote:
>>
>>> I've fitted several different brands/models and the distance between
>>> the  radiator and pipe has always been the same within a mm or so.  I
>>> find  that wholly unsurprising as professionals aren't likely to
>>> carry spares  which can't be subbed for Drayton and Drayton clones.
>>
>> It does rather depend on the age of the original. When I replaced very
>> old TRVs the difference of the dimensions compared to the modern
>> devices was enough to be a PITA.
>
> I suspect the installation I'm replacing is 20yrs old.

That's not very old but I expect you'd get a quick ID if you post a link
to a photos.

[Roland Perry]

In message <$Y80m0Wp...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>, at 20:02:01 on
Sun, 3 Oct 2021, Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> remarked:

I suppose I could squirt some WD40 onto them, but the plunger(s)
currently resist any attempt to budge them.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <b46e08d1-5d25-8ddd...@outlook.com>, at
06:50:04 on Mon, 4 Oct 2021, Robin <r...@outlook.com> remarked:

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/honeywell-trv.jpg
--
Roland Perry

[John Rumm]

Yup, lube, then taps on the valve with a light hammer - or grips on the
pin itself if it is stuck down.

[Roland Perry]

In message <AMidnXH097bXVsf8...@brightview.co.uk>, at
10:37:14 on Mon, 4 Oct 2021, John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null>
remarked:

>On 04/10/2021 07:46, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <$Y80m0Wp...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>, at 20:02:01 on
>>Sun, 3 Oct 2021, Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> In message <jS2hZ$pY4eW...@perry.uk>, Roland Perry
>>><rol...@perry.co.uk> writes
>>>> In message <iru45t...@mid.individual.net>, at 17:30:51 on Sun,
>>>>3 Oct 2021, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 03/10/2021 15:06, Robin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've fitted several different brands/models and the distance
>>>>>>between the  radiator and pipe has always been the same within a
>>>>>>mm or so.  I find  that wholly unsurprising as professionals
>>>>>>aren't likely to carry spares  which can't be subbed for Drayton
>>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> It does rather depend on the age of the original. When I replaced
>>>>>very old TRVs the difference of the dimensions compared to the
>>>>>modern devices was enough to be a PITA.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect the installation I'm replacing is 20yrs old.
>>>>
>>>> Having gone round various other radiators today, it appears at
>>>>least two others have seized thermostatic valves, so the scope of
>>>>the project keeps growing...
>>>
>>> Free off and lubricate the plunger?

>> I suppose I could squirt some WD40 onto them, but the plunger(s)
>>currently resist any attempt to budge them.
>
>Yup, lube, then taps on the valve with a light hammer - or grips on the
>pin itself if it is stuck down.

Silly question - if it's stuck "shut" is that up or down?
--
Roland Perry

[Robin]

down

[Robin]

looks to me to be bog standard. Compare the photos at Screwfix of e.g.
the current Honeywell there or the £10 Myson.

[Roland Perry]

In message <06f74bd8-6c3a-8f1d...@outlook.com>, at
11:56:07 on Mon, 4 Oct 2021, Robin <r...@outlook.com> remarked:

>On 04/10/2021 08:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <b46e08d1-5d25-8ddd...@outlook.com>, at
>>06:50:04 on Mon, 4 Oct 2021, Robin <r...@outlook.com> remarked:
>>> On 03/10/2021 18:53, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <iru45t...@mid.individual.net>, at 17:30:51 on Sun,
>>>>3 Oct  2021, alan_m <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 03/10/2021 15:06, Robin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've fitted several different brands/models and the distance
>>>>>>between  the  radiator and pipe has always been the same within a
>>>>>>mm or so.  I  find  that wholly unsurprising as professionals
>>>>>>aren't likely to  carry spares  which can't be subbed for Drayton
>>>>>>
>>>>>

>>>>> It does rather depend on the age of the original. When I replaced
>>>>>very  old TRVs the difference of the dimensions compared to the
>>>>>modern  devices was enough to be a PITA.
>>
>>>>  I suspect the installation I'm replacing is 20yrs old.
>>>
>>> That's not very old but I expect you'd get a quick ID if you post a
>>>link to a photos.

>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/honeywell-trv.jpg
>
>looks to me to be bog standard. Compare the photos at Screwfix of e.g.
>the current Honeywell there or the £10 Myson.

I'll be picking up my "free" Drayton ones tomorrow. So can compare.

(Unlike "Go Compare" which don't seem o want to do energy switching at
the moment).
--
Roland Perry

[alan_m]

On 04/10/2021 07:46, Roland Perry wrote:

> I suppose I could squirt some WD40 onto them, but the plunger(s)
> currently resist any attempt to budge them.

Lump hammer

Better off using a real oil and leaving it a day after application.

[alan_m]

+1

It looks fairly compact on the plumbing side so similar/same size as
modern equivalents.

When I replaced some very old valves, possibly 30 years old, they were
much more bulky.

[John Rumm]

Down is shut - no flow. Typically they are spring loaded so that the
valve should move to the full open setting if left to its own devices.
The TRV head has a wax capsule "motor" that expands at it gets hot, and
pushes down on the pin, closing off the flow. However after a summer of
being held closed, they can get stuck that way.

(some valves also come with a decorating cap, that screws onto the valve
base in place of the TRV head and clamps the pin down - cutting off the
flow making it easier to drain and remove a rad without doing the whole
system... (a 5p stuffed under the normal TRV will usually do the same job"))

[Andy Burns]

Robin wrote:

> Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/honeywell-trv.jpg
>
> looks to me to be bog standard.

I had some of that type, certainly pre-1990.

[Roland Perry]

In message <lIidnaZXgrPNtMb8...@brightview.co.uk>, at
17:18:23 on Mon, 4 Oct 2021, John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null>

It's been stuck at least a year I'm think (SWMBO opined today "I
wondered why that room was so cold last Winter").

A squirt of WD40 this morning, and it's now popped up!

>The TRV head has a wax capsule "motor" that expands at it gets hot, and
>pushes down on the pin, closing off the flow. However after a summer of
>being held closed, they can get stuck that way.
>
>(some valves also come with a decorating cap, that screws onto the
>valve base in place of the TRV head and clamps the pin down - cutting
>off the flow making it easier to drain and remove a rad without doing
>the whole system... (a 5p stuffed under the normal TRV will usually do
>the same job"))

Ah yes. I think I have a couple of those somewhere. A grey, domed,
plastic thing.
--
Roland Perry

[John Rumm]

Handy - work it up and down a few times to make sure it is good and free
- and it should be fine for the rest of the heating season.

>> (some valves also come with a decorating cap, that screws onto the
>> valve base in place of the TRV head and clamps the pin down - cutting
>> off the flow making it easier to drain and remove a rad without doing
>> the whole system... (a 5p stuffed under the normal TRV will usually do
>> the same job"))
>
> Ah yes. I think I have a couple of those somewhere. A grey, domed,
> plastic thing.

Yup, like a threaded blanking cap...

[Tim Lamb]

In message <7174c07b-b98b-a9b1...@outlook.com>, Robin
<r...@outlook.com> writes

Mine were horizontal so *in*. Pair of pliers with care:-)
>

--
Tim Lamb

[newshound]

They stick in the summer. I normally make sure all mine are fully open
(i.e. hottest setting) at the end of the heating season so that the
springs push the pin to its maximum distance out. That way, the tap with
the hammer is operating against the stiction and it becomes obvious when
they are free: you should be able to see them move in and out when you
push them. You will need to use a hard object, they are too stiff to
push with a finger. If they stick when fully closed then you are tapping
against a stop. I don't use WD40, I assume the pin operates through an
O-ring and sticks on the "wet" side, so the lubricant will be stopped by
the seal.

[Roger Hayter]

For future reference people must be discouraged from turning them fully off,
especially for the summer. This seems to be a major cause of sticking. There
is no great point in turning them off at all when the heating is off, and
they can be adequately turned down to the little frost sign, or even "1" where
they are not going to come on until the room is pretty cold, colder than it is
likely to get in a heated house. Thermostats in general are a major cause of
confusion to those not acquainted with control systems, unfortunately.



--
Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

On 4 Oct 2021 at 13:46:11 BST, "alan_m" <ju...@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 04/10/2021 11:56, Robin wrote:
>> On 04/10/2021 08:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/honeywell-trv.jpg
>>
>> looks to me to be bog standard. Compare the photos at Screwfix of e.g.
>> the current Honeywell there or the £10 Myson.
>>
>>
>
>
> +1
>
> It looks fairly compact on the plumbing side so similar/same size as
> modern equivalents.

And with the modern type of radiator tail, available in any reasonable length
(possibly with the aid of a hacksaw and file) to match radiators somewhat
smaller to the pipes.

>
> When I replaced some very old valves, possibly 30 years old, they were
> much more bulky.


--

Roger Hayter

[Tim Lamb]

In message <isdlq1...@mid.individual.net>, Roger Hayter
<ro...@hayter.org> writes

>On 4 Oct 2021 at 18:14:44 BST, "Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:

Snip

>For future reference people must be discouraged from turning them fully off,
>especially for the summer. This seems to be a major cause of sticking. There
>is no great point in turning them off at all when the heating is off, and
>they can be adequately turned down to the little frost sign, or even "1" where
>they are not going to come on until the room is pretty cold, colder than it is
>likely to get in a heated house. Thermostats in general are a major cause of
>confusion to those not acquainted with control systems, unfortunately.

Umm. Mine got to about 15 years and started sticking despite being left
on the Winter setting.

--
Tim Lamb