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Does Paslode gas deteriotate?

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Andrew Mawson

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May 14, 2016, 11:36:06 AM5/14/16
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The (propane ?) in a Paslode Nail Gun is in a sealed container. It bears a
'best before' date code, and various sources say that it does actually
deteriorate over time. Has anyone actual evidence that it does?

Andrew

newshound

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May 14, 2016, 12:51:50 PM5/14/16
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Butylene and Propylene

http://www.paslode.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/fuel-cell-msds-4-23-141.pdf

They will both polymerise, but I would be surprised if the reaction rate
is significant without a suitable catalyst and perhaps elevated
temperature. (Havn't actually looked this up, though).

I'd have thought the main age-related factor would be leakage through
rubber seals, although I know from experience that propane and butane
are fine for many years both in heavy "Calor" type cylinders and the
cheap tin containers used for cigarette lighter refils.

They may be covering themselves against storage at comparatively
elevated temperatures, I'm thinking about a tin shed in the tropics
where the temperature might reach 50 C or more.

Compatibility charts suggest that you need fluorocarbon (viton) seals
for propylene. Perhaps their containers just use nitrile (which would be
fine with propane/butane) but might have more limited life with the
Paslode gas mix.

http://mykin.com/rubber-chemical-resistance-chart-5

Brian Gaff

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May 15, 2016, 4:03:04 AM5/15/16
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I'd imagine it leaks out gradually, like many gasses do.
Brian

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Robin

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May 15, 2016, 11:31:14 AM5/15/16
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On 14/05/2016 17:51, newshound wrote:

> I'd have thought the main age-related factor would be leakage through
> rubber seals, although I know from experience that propane and butane
> are fine for many years both in heavy "Calor" type cylinders and the
> cheap tin containers used for cigarette lighter refils.
>
I can add a further data point having recently unearthed a Campinggaz
lantern which had been stored with a part-used pierceable canister for
30 years. Still had gas and worked OK (although sadly glass was broken).

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Andrew Mawson

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May 17, 2016, 5:03:57 AM5/17/16
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"Andrew Mawson" wrote in message news:...
>
>The (propane ?) in a Paslode Nail Gun is in a sealed container. It bears a
>'best before' date code, and various sources say that it does actually
>deteriorate over time. Has anyone actual evidence that it does?
>
>Andrew


OK I've concluded some tests - Paslode gas DOES 'Go Off'

IM250 -F16 second fix gun.

With genuine Paslode "Winter Fuel" cans expiry 2013 that are definitely
still full and gas smells right - ZILCH - no firing at all.

With genuine Paslode ordinary gas expiry 2008 - intermittent firing - too
occasional to be any use

With genuine Paslode ordinary gas expiry 2017 - utterly no issues - fires
every time.

The above results were absolutely repeatable, swapping cans in and out.


So the question is what is deteriorating in a sealed can of gas? (Leakage is
not an issue - all the old cans still had liquefied gas that could be
detected by shaking)


Andrew

newshound

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May 17, 2016, 8:20:14 AM5/17/16
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Maybe it relies on the more volatile propylene for ignition, and this
has evaporated / leaked / diffused through the seal leaving you with an
apparently full can containing only butylene?

I have a vague recollection that some light unsaturated compound
polymerises fast enough to "go off" in storage at a significant rate.
Need a proper organic chemist to advise.

Looking again at the MSDS, the contents are described as fuel and
propellant, tempting to say butylene is the fuel and propylene the
propellant (although both will burn, and the butylene has some vapour
pressure).

So loss of propylene will also cause significant loss of pressure,
perhaps the problem is that you are not getting an explosive mixture
from the old cylinders.

You might try warming up the cylinders gently, especially in cold
weather. I'm sure they are labelled with something like "Don't expose to
more than 30 C" but they are not going to explode on you at (say) 40 to
50 C. Stick them in a bucket of warm water to give them a chance to get
up to temperature, outside if you are a bit paranoid.

I don't think smell is a clue, I'd expect both compounds to smell similar.

jim

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May 20, 2016, 4:49:17 PM5/20/16
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"Brian Gaff" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> Wrote in message:
> I'd imagine it leaks out gradually, like many gasses do.
> Brian
>

But Op says there's still liquefied gas sloshing around inside...
--
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newshound

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May 22, 2016, 6:55:46 AM5/22/16
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On 5/20/2016 9:49 PM, jim wrote:
> "Brian Gaff" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> Wrote in message:
>> I'd imagine it leaks out gradually, like many gasses do.
>> Brian
>>
>
> But Op says there's still liquefied gas sloshing around inside...
>
See later postings. It contains two LGs of different volatility.

tabb...@gmail.com

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May 23, 2016, 7:09:53 PM5/23/16
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On Sunday, 22 May 2016 11:55:46 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
> On 5/20/2016 9:49 PM, jim wrote:
> > "Brian Gaff" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> Wrote in message:

> >> I'd imagine it leaks out gradually, like many gasses do.
> >
> > But Op says there's still liquefied gas sloshing around inside...
> >
> See later postings. It contains two LGs of different volatility.

He never sees anything, he's Rod mark 2.

Fuel & propellant are one and the same thing. Fuel, when burnt, is then propellant. The can presumably contains fuel and a less stable ignitor gas.

I don't know why Paslode use the odd gas mix they do rather than eg petrol.


NT

newshound

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May 24, 2016, 5:17:55 PM5/24/16
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On 5/24/2016 12:09 AM, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 22 May 2016 11:55:46 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
>> On 5/20/2016 9:49 PM, jim wrote:
>>> "Brian Gaff" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> Wrote in message:
>
>>>> I'd imagine it leaks out gradually, like many gasses do.
>>>
>>> But Op says there's still liquefied gas sloshing around inside...
>>>
>> See later postings. It contains two LGs of different volatility.
>
> He never sees anything, he's Rod mark 2.
>
> Fuel & propellant are one and the same thing.

My interpretation of their terms is that the vapour pressure of the more
volatile compound provides the driving force to get a charge of fuel
into the "cylinder" where it is fired.

Fuel, when burnt, is then propellant. The can presumably contains fuel
and a less stable ignitor gas.

These days, some aerosols use carbon dioxide as propellant. In this case
I agree that the more volatile propylene may also make ignition more
reliable (in the same way that last year's petrol sometimes won't work
in the lawnmower).
>
> I don't know why Paslode use the odd gas mix they do rather than eg petrol.

Same reason butane is more popular than petrol in cigarette lighters.
It's convenient and it works.
>
>
> NT
>

polygonum

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May 24, 2016, 6:05:28 PM5/24/16
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Paslode themselves use the phrasing "Composition/Information on
Ingredients (Fuel and Propellant)" as if fuel is not propellant and
prpoellant is not fuel.

http://www.paslode.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/fuel-cell-msds-4-23-141.pdf

--
Rod

Andrew Mawson

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May 25, 2016, 8:09:36 AM5/25/16
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"polygonum" wrote in message news:dqk1h4...@mid.individual.net...
I love the way the Safety Data Sheet says:

"Chemical Stability: Stable under normal conditions of use."

Surely under normal conditions of use they exploit the INSTABILITY to
create a bang and knock a nail in !!!!!!

Andrew


polygonum

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May 25, 2016, 3:35:36 PM5/25/16
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On 25/05/2016 13:10, Andrew Mawson wrote:
>
> I love the way the Safety Data Sheet says:
>
> "Chemical Stability: Stable under normal conditions of use."
>
> Surely under normal conditions of use they exploit the INSTABILITY to
> create a bang and knock a nail in !!!!!!
>
> Andrew

Too true!

--
Rod

Woodchuck

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Apr 10, 2019, 12:44:04 PM4/10/19
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replying to Andrew Mawson, Woodchuck wrote:
It's amazing what useful information one can find on the Internet. Thanks lots
for this!!!

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for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/does-paslode-gas-deteriotate-1129744-.htm


harry

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Apr 10, 2019, 2:05:30 PM4/10/19
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It leaks. The seams are not perfectly gas tight.

Richard

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Apr 10, 2019, 2:11:02 PM4/10/19
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Answered in the nick of time.

Brian Gaff

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Apr 11, 2019, 3:49:20 AM4/11/19
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Maybe it is, but if you look on that site your internet street cred will
plummet.
Brian

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Brian Gaff

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Apr 11, 2019, 3:53:17 AM4/11/19
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I don't know what deteriotate is, but if you mean are cheapo gas in various
tins storable, then the answer is that it does leak out. I remember our
camping gaz mini stove canisters did after a couple of years not used.
Brian

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Brian Gaff

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Apr 11, 2019, 3:54:37 AM4/11/19
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Yes hence my comment about 2 years and the street cred etc going down if
that site is where you get your news!
Brian

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