Thickening a liquid

[fred]

I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the leaves of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the borders. If I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down the stem and killing the goodies.

What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?

[harry]

On May 13, 8:29 am, fred <tpmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the leaves of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the borders. If I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down the stem and killing the goodies.
>

> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?Ads not by this site

Put on rubber gloves. (NO holes)
Put on woollen gloves on top of them.
Dip you your hands in the solution and run
them through the weeds.
Soil inactivates roundup.

[fred]

Tried that. No good as scutch grass is growing through the plants I want to keep and the gloves tend to drip

[Nightjar]

On 13/05/2013 08:29, fred wrote:
> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the leaves of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the borders. If I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down the stem and killing the goodies.
>
> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>

Roundup gel is designed for that type of situation.

Colin Bignell

[Martin Brown]

On 13/05/2013 08:29, fred wrote:

> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the leaves of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the borders. If I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down the stem and killing the goodies.
>
> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?

Wallpaper paste or flour.
You can buy a glyphosate gel formulation as a touch stick.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Tim Watts]

Gelatin I would have thought...

I cannot see how salt could possibly work???

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
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[polygonum]

On 13/05/2013 09:25, Tim Watts wrote:
> On Monday 13 May 2013 08:29 fred wrote in uk.d-i-y:
>
>> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the leaves
>> of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the borders. If
>> I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down the stem and
>> killing the goodies.
>>
>> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>
> Gelatin I would have thought...
>
> I cannot see how salt could possibly work???
>

The waves at sea would be very interesting if salt had a really
substantial thickening effect.

I note that the thickener used for Roundup Gel is a trade secret.

--
Rod

[stuart noble]

Then that is undoubtedly the answer because thickening chemicals is far
from straightforward.

[Martin Brown]

On 13/05/2013 09:49, stuart noble wrote:
> On 13/05/2013 09:16, Nightjar wrote:
>> On 13/05/2013 08:29, fred wrote:
>>> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the
>>> leaves of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the
>>> borders. If I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down
>>> the stem and killing the goodies.
>>>
>>> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>>>
>>
>> Roundup gel is designed for that type of situation.
>>

> Then that is undoubtedly the answer because thickening chemicals is far
> from straightforward.

Actually it is comparatively easy provided that the chemical is not too
aggressive. Wallpaper paste, flour, cornflower, agar will all do it.

It is unlicensed use of a pesticide but far better in my opinion than
paying anything to Monsanto for Roundup(TM) products. Any sheds own
bradn glyphosate product with maximum g/L of active ingredient is as
good and avoids giving money to irresponsible GM advocates.

NB I am not against GM but I am against Monsanto for the cavalier way
they foisted RoundupReady on the world and damaged the entire industry.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 13 May 2013 00:29:35 -0700 (PDT), fred wrote:

> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) ...

Wall paper paste.

Bet the ready made gel costs significan;y more than the already
significantly marked up, branded, Roundup.

Other cheaper and stronger glyphosate based weed killers are available.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[F Murtz]

fred wrote:
> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the leaves of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the borders. If I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down the stem and killing the goodies.
>
> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>

Get a small hand held rope wick applicator.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Rope+Wick+Applicator+Plans&Form=IQFRDR

[John Rumm]

Interesting that the COSHH data sheet classes it as non hazardous...
presumably to avoid disclosure of much detail about its composition.

http://msds.duluxgroup.com/pdf/shess-en-cds-020-000000023067.pdf


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Another Dave]

On 13/05/2013 09:25, Tim Watts wrote:
>>

>> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>
> Gelatin I would have thought...
>
> I cannot see how salt could possibly work???
>

I think the OP is thinking of salt being used to thicken bleach. As you
say, I don't think it can thicken anything else.

Another Dave.

[newshound]

On 13/05/2013 10:23, John Rumm wrote:
> On 13/05/2013 09:43, polygonum wrote:
>> On 13/05/2013 09:25, Tim Watts wrote:
>>> On Monday 13 May 2013 08:29 fred wrote in uk.d-i-y:
>>>
>>>> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the
>>>> leaves
>>>> of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the
>>>> borders. If
>>>> I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down the stem and
>>>> killing the goodies.
>>>>
>>>> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>>>
>>> Gelatin I would have thought...
>>>
>>> I cannot see how salt could possibly work???
>>>
>> The waves at sea would be very interesting if salt had a really
>> substantial thickening effect.
>>
>> I note that the thickener used for Roundup Gel is a trade secret.
>
> Interesting that the COSHH data sheet classes it as non hazardous...
> presumably to avoid disclosure of much detail about its composition.
>
> http://msds.duluxgroup.com/pdf/shess-en-cds-020-000000023067.pdf
>
>

My guess would be poly ethylene oxide. Any competent firm would be able
to analyse and reverse engineer anyway.

[dennis@home]

They use it for washing up liquid as well.

[Alan Braggins]

In article <avbneg...@mid.individual.net>, polygonum wrote:
>On 13/05/2013 09:25, Tim Watts wrote:
>> On Monday 13 May 2013 08:29 fred wrote in uk.d-i-y:
>>
>>> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the leaves
>>> of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the borders. If
>>> I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down the stem and
>>> killing the goodies.
>>>
>>> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>>
>> Gelatin I would have thought...
>> I cannot see how salt could possibly work???
>>
>The waves at sea would be very interesting if salt had a really
>substantial thickening effect.

He might have got the idea from
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Detergent#Washing_up_liquid
"Low cost washing liquids contain less detergent and are thickened with salt."

http://chemistscorner.com/why-does-salt-thicken-shampoos/
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/surfactants-building-viscosity.html

But unless you want some sort of soap/detergent in the Roundup too, not
really relevant. I suppose it might help penetrate pores in the leaves.
Or kill any greenfly on the grass :-)

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <slrnkp1k6...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>,

ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Alan Braggins) writes:
>
> But unless you want some sort of soap/detergent in the Roundup too, not
> really relevant. I suppose it might help penetrate pores in the leaves.

One of the difficulties in designing glyphosate preparations
is including something which makes the plant absorb it without
killing the leaf on contact (which would stop it from working).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[Martin Brown]

There is already a powerful surfactant in the Roundup formulation - in
fact the wetting agent is significantly more toxic than the glyphosate!

Wallpaper paste is the cheapest thickener and easily available.
It won't keep very well as the starch becomes food for yeasts PDQ.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[stuart noble]

On 13/05/2013 10:08, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 13/05/2013 09:49, stuart noble wrote:
>> On 13/05/2013 09:16, Nightjar wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2013 08:29, fred wrote:
>>>> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the
>>>> leaves of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the
>>>> borders. If I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down
>>>> the stem and killing the goodies.
>>>>
>>>> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Roundup gel is designed for that type of situation.
>>>
>> Then that is undoubtedly the answer because thickening chemicals is far
>> from straightforward.
>
> Actually it is comparatively easy provided that the chemical is not too
> aggressive. Wallpaper paste, flour, cornflower, agar will all do it.
>

I imagine the difficult bit is to thicken it without affecting the
penetration of the chemical. I should have said thickening surfactants
isn't straightforward.

[fred]

I know this but I buy Roundup by the gallon so find the prices, never mind the strength of such things, to be unacceptable

[fred]

Have used thos but not suitable in this instance for reasons given

[Steve Firth]

It can be used to thicken a wide range of solutions of polymers in water.
In the case of bleach it is not the bleach (sodium hypochlorite) that is
being thickened but the detergent. Similarly shampoo, washing up liquid etc
are thickened with salt.

Collagen solutions can be thickened with salt as can acrylic polymers and
various carbohydrate polymers.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[alan]

On 13/05/2013 08:29, fred wrote:

> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the leaves of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the borders. If I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down the stem and killing the goodies.
>
> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>

wallpaper paste? as long as it dries before it rains.

--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

[Jim K]

On May 13, 2:05 pm, fred <tpmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I know this but I buy Roundup by the gallon so find the prices, never mind the strength of such things, to be
> unacceptable

change to a generic brand?

Jim K

[Tim Lamb]

In message <slrnkp1k6...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Alan Braggins
<ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes

Plant leaves are usually coated in wax. Monsanto brought out a product
to aid leaf penetration, Roundup Biactive? Within weeks agricultural
crops advisers were recommending an *off the shelf* additive to the
standard version.

--
Tim Lamb

[Tim Lamb]

In message <avbomm...@mid.individual.net>, Huge
<Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> writes

>Wallpaper paste works, but you cannot store it once thickened, since the
>starch in the paste grows fungus and it goes runny again (not sure of the
>mechanism of that.)

I found it *works* in the sense you get thickened Roundup but not with
regard to applying by brush to flexible leaves.

I tried it on bindweed and, unless the leaf is supported, failed to
transfer enough chemical to do the job.
>

--
Tim Lamb

[The Natural Philosopher]

they dont.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[Windmill]

Is that what's in the little hand-held applicator they show in the TV
ad? Which they claim can be applied to only the weeds, missing the
rest.

--
Windmill, Til...@Nonetel.com Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

[Martin Brown]

On 14/05/2013 00:56, Windmill wrote:
> Nightjar <c...@insert.my.surname.here.me.uk> writes:
>
>> On 13/05/2013 08:29, fred wrote:
>>> I wish to thicken Roundup so I may apply it (by paintbrush) to the leaves of scutch grass which is growing up through everything in the borders. If I apply the bare liquid I run the risk of it running down the stem and killing the goodies.
>>>
>>> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>>>
>
>> Roundup gel is designed for that type of situation.
>
>> Colin Bignell
>
> Is that what's in the little hand-held applicator they show in the TV
> ad? Which they claim can be applied to only the weeds, missing the
> rest.

Yes. Although the waxy 2,4-D based broadleaf specific ones are better
for spot weeding on lawns. Grass is exquisitely sensitive to glyphosate
and people who have been spraying with it should not walk on lawns!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[fred]

Have tried alternatives but always go back to Roundup or Gallup. Too much faffing around waiting up to two weeks to see if the alternative is effective. I know Roundup works

[dennis@home]

On 13/05/2013 23:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 13/05/13 12:22, dennis@home wrote:

8<

>> They use it for washing up liquid as well.

> they dont.
>

So show us the results of your analysis of every washing up liquid
available to prove you are correct.

While I will just point to one that uses it..

http://www.ecover.com/GB/EN/products/ProductDetails.aspx?PId=9002&VId=20019007721&CId=117&NM=Washing%20Up%20Liquid

[Martin Brown]

All decent glyphosate formulations work. More fool you for buying it
from Monsanto for ripoff prices. At least buy the Zeneca version if you
must pay through the nose for a fancy brand name product.

Be careful these days as they seem to sell things to the public called
Roundup that contain other weedkiller components than just glyphosate!
Not sure that Roundup Ready crops would like them very much.

I love the way that increasingly they sell prediluted stuff as
weedkiller and windscreen wash. Vastly overpriced impure water!!!

A glyphosate kill always takes about two weeks to take full effect - it
is a translocating weedkiller and needs that time to circulate around
inside the plant if it is to be properly effective.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Steve Firth]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 13/05/13 12:22, dennis@home wrote:
>> On 13/05/2013 12:17, Another Dave wrote:
>>> On 13/05/2013 09:25, Tim Watts wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>>>>
>>>> Gelatin I would have thought...
>>>>
>>>> I cannot see how salt could possibly work???
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think the OP is thinking of salt being used to thicken bleach. As you
>>> say, I don't think it can thicken anything else.
>>>
>>> Another Dave.
>>
>> They use it for washing up liquid as well.
> they dont.

Oh yes they do!

Gosh, panto season already.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Theo Markettos]

Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I love the way that increasingly they sell prediluted stuff as
> weedkiller and windscreen wash. Vastly overpriced impure water!!!

A glyphosate-based windscreen wash? Ouch!

Theo

[Tim Lamb]

In message <avehet...@mid.individual.net>, Huge
<Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> writes

>Ah, you need the "glove of death". I wear a rubber glove with a cotton
>glove over the top, dip my hand in the goo then lovingly fondle the plant.

Yes. Might be safer (for other plants) if you could restrict the
chemical to the *palm of death*:-)
>
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Andy Bartlett]

"Another Dave" <dmar...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:kmqhsu$it4$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 13/05/2013 09:25, Tim Watts wrote:
>>>

>>> What would be the easiest thing to use ? Salt ?
>>

>> Gelatin I would have thought...
>>
>> I cannot see how salt could possibly work???
>>
>
> I think the OP is thinking of salt being used to thicken bleach. As you
> say, I don't think it can thicken anything else.
>
> Another Dave.

A spoonful of Gaviscon seems to do the trick.

[ne...@sylva.icuklive.co.uk]

On Tue, 14 May 2013 12:25:10 +0100, Tim Lamb
<t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Yes. Might be safer (for other plants) if you could restrict the
>chemical to the *palm of death*:-)
>>

Remember the croptex glove for chemically hand roguing wild oats from
wheat?

AJH

[Tim Lamb]

In message <k7t7p8pnbb6839nmn...@4ax.com>,
ne...@sylva.icuklive.co.uk writes

Never got my hands on one:-)

There were no wild Oats on the home farm and I used to sort them in
Winter Beans on the outlying arable.

--
Tim Lamb

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Tue, 14 May 2013 10:26:37 +0100, Tim Streater
<timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:

>I buy the most concentrated Roundup I can find, which seems to be the
>360gm/litre formulation. This costs around �40, but lasts me 10 years
>(just bought my second one last year).
>
>Anyone else make a high-strength solution?

I've not used it extesnsively, just a few occasions around my lot.
I found that the recommended dilution had no effect on the woodier
plants to upped the does to 5% iirc. A couple of months later, all the
woody brambles just tipped up and died, for good. Marvellous stuff.

[fred]

snip

>
>
>
> I've not used it extesnsively, just a few occasions around my lot.
>
> I found that the recommended dilution had no effect on the woodier
>
> plants to upped the does to 5% iirc. A couple of months later, all the
>
> woody brambles just tipped up and died, for good. Marvellous stuff.

5% solution. If my maths is correct thats 20:1, no ?

Thats the dilution I always use. Kills brambles eventually but as they are still dangerous even when dead, so have to be cut out anyway I prefer to cut them back to the ground. They grow again I know but I gain great satisfaction from emasculating them.
One tripped me up last week. Fell flat on my face and cracked a rib. I think they may be fighting back.

[Nick Odell]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 00:51:48 -0700 (PDT), fred <tpmc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

They are just biding their time...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007jrfm


Nick

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 00:51:48 -0700 (PDT), fred <tpmc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> I've not used it extesnsively, just a few occasions around my lot.
>>
>> I found that the recommended dilution had no effect on the woodier
>>
>> plants to upped the does to 5% iirc. A couple of months later, all the
>>
>> woody brambles just tipped up and died, for good. Marvellous stuff.
>
>
>5% solution. If my maths is correct thats 20:1, no ?

Yep. Iirc, the packaging said 3% to start with and I ended up with 5%
(or perhaps 8%), it wasn't a hugely expensive or highly concentrated
exercise to find the sweet spot which killed them off.

>Thats the dilution I always use. Kills brambles eventually but as they are still dangerous even when dead, so have to be cut out anyway I prefer to cut them back to the ground. They grow again I know but I gain great satisfaction from emasculating them.
>One tripped me up last week. Fell flat on my face and cracked a rib. I think they may be fighting back.

Bleedin' Triffids, they are.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <eiqpp81a8m5npno79...@4ax.com>, Grimly
Curmudgeon <gri...@gmail.com> writes

There are/have been chemical sprays intended for woody plants. The EU
has caused some to be withdrawn.

The place to look is.. https://secure.pesticides.gov.uk/pestreg/

Grazon was a good one.

Broadshot?



--
Tim Lamb

[The Natural Philosopher]

Roundup kills brambles . At 10* normal strength. On the leaves.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <knj8d6$v0r$1...@news.albasani.net>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> writes

Maybe. You are supposed to avoid killing the top growth without leaving
time for the chemical to translocate to the roots.

--
Tim Lamb

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 08:35:12 +0100, Tim Lamb
<t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Maybe. You are supposed to avoid killing the top growth without leaving
>time for the chemical to translocate to the roots.

What happened with my brambles was an apparent non-occurrence then
suddenly, about two months later, with the onset of the colder months,
they died off. I presume the sap had withdrawn to the root ball and
killed it.
Magical, it was. Honestly until that occurred, I was beginning to
think they were indestructible.