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internal angles on stair handrails...
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Jim K
Jan 18, 2014, 12:33:36 PM1/18/14
to
what's the procedure/technique for measuring & cutting handrail joints for stairs at internal corners that are "on slope"/ inclined? i.e. one plane is 90deg so easy 45 deg each but how to measure/describe a change in angle as well?
Jim K
Jim K
Tricky Dicky
Jan 18, 2014, 12:55:48 PM1/18/14
to
Most handrails I have seen where the direction changes such as on a landing, the sloping handrail is brought level first then turned through the 90deg. The sloping part and the first level section will form an angle of 135deg. requiring the ends to be cut at 67.5deg.
Richard
Richard
Jim K
Jan 18, 2014, 12:58:25 PM1/18/14
to
On Saturday, January 18, 2014 5:55:48 PM UTC, Tricky Dicky wrote:
> Most handrails I have seen where the direction changes such as on a landing, the sloping handrail is brought level first then turned through the 90deg. The sloping part and the first level section will form an angle of 135deg. requiring the ends to be cut at 67.5deg.
>
>
>
> Richard
mmm but not this one! :>) it;s a winder staircase on a corner - no horizontal runs just "less steep" 90deg corner, then "more steep"...
> Most handrails I have seen where the direction changes such as on a landing, the sloping handrail is brought level first then turned through the 90deg. The sloping part and the first level section will form an angle of 135deg. requiring the ends to be cut at 67.5deg.
>
>
>
> Richard
Jim K
Tricky Dicky
Jan 18, 2014, 1:08:46 PM1/18/14
to
The horizontal parts can be quite short one stair tread only, used such a stair in a restaurant only today and that's the arrangement used at the point where the stairs turned at 45deg.
Richard
Richard
Jim K
Jan 18, 2014, 1:14:00 PM1/18/14
to
On Saturday, January 18, 2014 6:08:46 PM UTC, Tricky Dicky wrote:
> The horizontal parts can be quite short one stair tread only, used such a stair in a restaurant only today and that's the arrangement used at the point where the stairs turned at 45deg.
>
>
>
> Richard
OK but in this application the stair strings are never horizontal and at the 90degree turn I don't want to start introducing horizontals..?!. in any case the problem remains how do you measure the change around a corner in 2 planes?
> The horizontal parts can be quite short one stair tread only, used such a stair in a restaurant only today and that's the arrangement used at the point where the stairs turned at 45deg.
>
>
>
> Richard
Jim K
Tricky Dicky
Jan 18, 2014, 1:37:26 PM1/18/14
to
Sorry Jim my knowledge of geometry is not that good and the solution offered is the only straightforward way of doing it that I can see. I have seen banisters where a complicated curved section has been inserted at the point where the the two sloping sections meet at 90deg.
Richard
Richard
Jim K
Jan 18, 2014, 1:48:03 PM1/18/14
to
On Saturday, January 18, 2014 6:37:26 PM UTC, Tricky Dicky wrote:
> Sorry Jim my knowledge of geometry is not that good and the solution offered is the only straightforward way of doing it that I can see. I have seen banisters where a complicated curved section has been inserted at the point where the the two sloping sections meet at 90deg.
/q
> Sorry Jim my knowledge of geometry is not that good and the solution offered is the only straightforward way of doing it that I can see. I have seen banisters where a complicated curved section has been inserted at the point where the the two sloping sections meet at 90deg.
no probs. It's a "compound mitre" cut/joint but just wondering how best to approach & measure/cut it
Cheers
Jim K
Andrew Gabriel
Jan 18, 2014, 5:54:06 PM1/18/14
to
In article <c273cf5b-2145-4faf...@googlegroups.com>,
You want them parallel with the stringer (45 degrees would be a quite
a steep staircase). If you have winders, the stringer will change
angle, and it's more complicated.
I also took time to look at similar handrails. You tend to find the
sloping handrail enters the post at a lower height than the landing
handrail.
I cut mortice and tenon joints, but I don't think that's done
commercially anymore - there are kits to make that joint easier if
you are not into traditional woodwork, and an angled mortice and
tenon joint is not quite a starter project. (I practiced the mortice
part on an offcut first.)
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Jim K <jk98...@gmail.com> writes:
> what's the procedure/technique for measuring & cutting handrail joints for stairs at internal corners that are "on slope"/ inclined? i.e. one plane is 90deg so easy 45 deg each but how to measure/describe a change in angle as well?
>
When I did mine, I drew it out using trigenometry.
> what's the procedure/technique for measuring & cutting handrail joints for stairs at internal corners that are "on slope"/ inclined? i.e. one plane is 90deg so easy 45 deg each but how to measure/describe a change in angle as well?
>
You want them parallel with the stringer (45 degrees would be a quite
a steep staircase). If you have winders, the stringer will change
angle, and it's more complicated.
I also took time to look at similar handrails. You tend to find the
sloping handrail enters the post at a lower height than the landing
handrail.
I cut mortice and tenon joints, but I don't think that's done
commercially anymore - there are kits to make that joint easier if
you are not into traditional woodwork, and an angled mortice and
tenon joint is not quite a starter project. (I practiced the mortice
part on an offcut first.)
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Jim K
Jan 18, 2014, 6:00:28 PM1/18/14
to
On Saturday, January 18, 2014 10:54:06 PM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
> In article <c273cf5b-2145-4faf...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> Jim K <jk98...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > what's the procedure/technique for measuring & cutting handrail joints for stairs at internal corners that are "on slope"/ inclined? i.e. one plane is 90deg so easy 45 deg each but how to measure/describe a change in angle as well?
>
> >
>
>
>
> When I did mine, I drew it out using trigenometry.
>
> You want them parallel with the stringer (45 degrees would be a quite
> a steep staircase). If you have winders, the stringer will change
> angle, and it's more complicated.
>
mm the 45deg is 1/2 the 90 deg corner, plan view...
> In article <c273cf5b-2145-4faf...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> Jim K <jk98...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > what's the procedure/technique for measuring & cutting handrail joints for stairs at internal corners that are "on slope"/ inclined? i.e. one plane is 90deg so easy 45 deg each but how to measure/describe a change in angle as well?
>
> >
>
>
>
> When I did mine, I drew it out using trigenometry.
>
> You want them parallel with the stringer (45 degrees would be a quite
> a steep staircase). If you have winders, the stringer will change
> angle, and it's more complicated.
>
> I also took time to look at similar handrails. You tend to find the
> sloping handrail enters the post at a lower height than the landing
> handrail.
>
> I cut mortice and tenon joints, but I don't think that's done
> commercially anymore - there are kits to make that joint easier if
> you are not into traditional woodwork, and an angled mortice and
> tenon joint is not quite a starter project. (I practiced the mortice
> part on an offcut first.)
Jim K
Tricky Dicky
Jan 18, 2014, 7:30:27 PM1/18/14
to
Andrew
I think Jim is looking to make two handrails meet without a newel post, with the two hand rails fixed to a wall rather than a bannister. Correct me if I am wrong Jim.
Richard
I think Jim is looking to make two handrails meet without a newel post, with the two hand rails fixed to a wall rather than a bannister. Correct me if I am wrong Jim.
Richard
d...@gglz.com
Jan 19, 2014, 3:31:00 AM1/19/14
to
On Saturday, 18 January 2014 17:33:36 UTC, Jim K wrote:
> what's the procedure/technique for measuring & cutting handrail joints for stairs at internal corners that are "on slope"/ inclined? i.e. one plane is 90deg so easy 45 deg each but how to measure/describe a change in angle as well?
>
>
>
> Jim K
When I've needed to do this, I've tried pre-calculation - but found that the actual angle to get a tight shut-line may vary. Cutting test pieces in scrap timber has worked better.
> what's the procedure/technique for measuring & cutting handrail joints for stairs at internal corners that are "on slope"/ inclined? i.e. one plane is 90deg so easy 45 deg each but how to measure/describe a change in angle as well?
>
>
>
> Jim K
Measure what you think is the correct angle, cut the half-angle on each scrap piece, then trim one of them by degrees (literally a degree or two) to get a tight fit. Measure each angle (as the two pieces are likely different) and recalculate the correct half-angles.
Even then I've found that over the length of a handrail, the full-length timber will sit slightly differently and may require a final trim to get a tight joint.
If your handrail is other than a rectangular cross-section, you may have the extra complexity of having to "let-in" or house one profile into the other.
I found it easiest to start at the bottom of the stairs, get the joint at the upper end of the first piece of handrail 'nearly right', fix the first piece in place - then I was able to repeatedly trim and test the second piece (being able to rest it in place loosely on the first timber). That means that you're not using the perfect half-angle - but a bit of planing and sanding in-situ to produce a pleasing overall profile helps a lot.
Tim Lamb
Jan 19, 2014, 4:25:07 AM1/19/14
to
In message <4a32de41-fd9b-4337...@googlegroups.com>, Jim
K <jk98...@gmail.com> writes
Is this something you could set up in rough and measure actual angles
with a sliding bevel?
--
Tim Lamb
K <jk98...@gmail.com> writes
>> I also took time to look at similar handrails. You tend to find the
>> sloping handrail enters the post at a lower height than the landing
>> handrail.
>>
>
>mmm no landing...
>
>
>> I cut mortice and tenon joints, but I don't think that's done
>> commercially anymore - there are kits to make that joint easier if
>> you are not into traditional woodwork, and an angled mortice and
>> tenon joint is not quite a starter project. (I practiced the mortice
>> part on an offcut first.)
>
>
>just a straight "cut" angle calculation explanation would be enough! ;>)
I haven't quite got my brain round the problem:-)
>> sloping handrail enters the post at a lower height than the landing
>> handrail.
>>
>
>mmm no landing...
>
>
>> I cut mortice and tenon joints, but I don't think that's done
>> commercially anymore - there are kits to make that joint easier if
>> you are not into traditional woodwork, and an angled mortice and
>> tenon joint is not quite a starter project. (I practiced the mortice
>> part on an offcut first.)
>
>
>just a straight "cut" angle calculation explanation would be enough! ;>)
Is this something you could set up in rough and measure actual angles
with a sliding bevel?
--
Tim Lamb
harryagain
Jan 19, 2014, 4:47:32 AM1/19/14
to
"Jim K" <jk98...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c273cf5b-2145-4faf...@googlegroups.com...
(However clever you are it will be wrong.)
Measure and mark as best you can.
You can then mess around adjusting the angle on the template with the belt
sander until it's right.
Then you use the template to mark up the real thing (making sure you have
some spare length at the other end of the rail. Always cut the tricky joints
first, leaving the plain ends to cut off last)
That way you have spare length for adjustment
harryagain
Jan 19, 2014, 5:01:38 AM1/19/14
to
"harryagain" <harry...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:lbg6vj$ein$9...@dont-email.me...
To transfer "angles" from template to rail, tape a piece of paper on to the
template (wrapped round it)
Put a mark on paper crossing joint where it overlaps so that it can be put
in exactly the same position after moving.
Cut off paper to match end of template.
Remove and transfer onto handrail.
Mark off and cut.
Slight adjustments with belt sander will be needed very likely.
But remember, if you have a 3D joint, the two pieces will not mate up
exactly due to the inherent misalignemnt.
If you look at a proper job, it is a 3D carved/curved lump of wood to join
up the bits.
Jim K
Jan 19, 2014, 8:06:57 AM1/19/14
to
Jim K
Jim K
Jan 19, 2014, 8:10:26 AM1/19/14
to
On Sunday, January 19, 2014 9:25:07 AM UTC, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <4a32de41-fd9b-4337...@googlegroups.com>, Jim
>
> K <jk98...@gmail.com> writes
>
> >> I also took time to look at similar handrails. You tend to find the
>
> >> sloping handrail enters the post at a lower height than the landing
>
> >> handrail.
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >mmm no landing...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >> I cut mortice and tenon joints, but I don't think that's done
>
> >> commercially anymore - there are kits to make that joint easier if
>
> >> you are not into traditional woodwork, and an angled mortice and
>
> >> tenon joint is not quite a starter project. (I practiced the mortice
>
> >> part on an offcut first.)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >just a straight "cut" angle calculation explanation would be enough! ;>)
>
>
>
> I haven't quite got my brain round the problem:-)
>
see Tricky Dicky's interpretation above...
> In message <4a32de41-fd9b-4337...@googlegroups.com>, Jim
>
> K <jk98...@gmail.com> writes
>
> >> I also took time to look at similar handrails. You tend to find the
>
> >> sloping handrail enters the post at a lower height than the landing
>
> >> handrail.
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >mmm no landing...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >> I cut mortice and tenon joints, but I don't think that's done
>
> >> commercially anymore - there are kits to make that joint easier if
>
> >> you are not into traditional woodwork, and an angled mortice and
>
> >> tenon joint is not quite a starter project. (I practiced the mortice
>
> >> part on an offcut first.)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >just a straight "cut" angle calculation explanation would be enough! ;>)
>
>
>
> I haven't quite got my brain round the problem:-)
>
>
> Is this something you could set up in rough and measure actual angles
> with a sliding bevel?
Jim K
stuart noble
Jan 19, 2014, 1:17:54 PM1/19/14
to
Tahiri
Jan 20, 2014, 8:30:12 AM1/20/14
to
>> I think Jim is looking to make two handrails meet without a newel post,
>> with the two hand rails fixed to a wall rather than a bannister. Correct
>> me if I am wrong Jim.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard
>
> spot on! NB I've done it but was wondering how I should have done it...
>
> Jim K
as a separate piece. I doubt it matters how you calculated it as long as the
end result looks right.
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