Trianco oil boiler burner lock out problem

[Ash Burton]

Having a problem just in the last few weeks with our Trianco oil fired
combi-boiler burner locking out on timer start up.

Have replaced the Danfoss coil and photo-cell but the lock out light
still comes on periodically at start up, the burner will start by
pushing the restart button until the next programmed start time.

The oil tank is full, the burner nozzle was replaced at the annual
service in May and the input supply voltage is a steady 245v.

I've tried leaving the hot water switched on permanently but it still
locks out at the next restart after the water temperature stat operates.

Any suggestions as to what the problem could be?

Ash

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[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 14:15:09 +0100, Ash Burton wrote:

> Having a problem just in the last few weeks with our Trianco oil fired
> combi-boiler burner locking out on timer start up.

<snip>

> Any suggestions as to what the problem could be?

Have you watched it try and fail to run?

Does the blower run? Do you get a spray of fuel? Do you get a flame?
What colour is the flame? Water in the fuel, that can do weird things
if it gets past the pump. Air leak on the suction side of pump?

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Michael Chare]

Apart from the pump itself, you may need to replace any filters between
the tank and the pump.


--
Michael Chare

[Ash Burton]

On 19/07/2015 16:36, Michael Chare wrote:
> On 19/07/2015 16:07, Dave Liquorice wrote:

>> On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 14:15:09 +0100, Ash Burton wrote:o start

>>
>>> Having a problem just in the last few weeks with our Trianco oil fired
>>> combi-boiler burner locking out on timer start up.
>> <snip>
>>> Any suggestions as to what the problem could be?
>>
>> Have you watched it try and fail to run?
>>
>> Does the blower run? Do you get a spray of fuel? Do you get a flame?
>> What colour is the flame? Water in the fuel, that can do weird things
>> if it gets past the pump. Air leak on the suction side of pump?
>>
> Apart from the pump itself, you may need to replace any filters between
> the tank and the pump.
>
>

Thanks for the useful responses;

The tank filter was replaced recently, i've not yet watched it try to
start as it is set to come on before i get up.

It fires OK when i press the reset button, so it would seem the oil is
getting thru OK, the tank was recently refilled after the annual boiler
service in May in which the oil is normally checked for water
contamination, it's possible the new oil has water in it, although it
ran OK for a few weeks before this problem occurred?

It's possible there could be an air leak' i'll check that out, the
frustrating thing is it fires as normal about 50% of the time, so it
does seem to indicate something variable.

[harry]

Check/clean the ignitor /spark plug thingy.
Also loose connections on the ignitor circuit,.
Sounds like loose connection somewhere.

As someone else has said, water in fuel.
Check if there is a drain tap on the fuel tank, if so open & catch what comes out, see if water or oil.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 17:22:19 +0100, Ash Burton wrote:

> The tank filter was replaced recently, i've not yet watched it try to
> start as it is set to come on before i get up.
>
> It fires OK when i press the reset button, so it would seem the oil is
> getting thru OK, the tank was recently refilled after the annual boiler

> service in May ...

Filling the tank stirs it up, kak will get drawn into the system. A
new filter shouldn't object that quickly though unless there is a lot
of kak in the tank. Did you see the old filter, does the housing look
as if it's been opened recently?

A flake of something can act as a butterfly valve. Or a small bit a
kak gets drawn to a small orfice blocks it, boiler shuts down, kak
drifts away from orfice until boiler starts, rinse and repeat...
Similar can happen with a flake across the pipe. Not quite your
symptoms.

> ... in which the oil is normally checked for water contamination, it's

> possible the new oil has water in it, although it ran OK for a few weeks
> before this problem occurred?

Water in a tank mainly come from condensation inside or rain getting
blown into vents/filler cap etc.

> It's possible there could be an air leak' i'll check that out, the
> frustrating thing is it fires as normal about 50% of the time, so it
> does seem to indicate something variable.

How long elapses between the boiler running and then failing to
start? Will it reliably start up to around that time?

Is the oil gravity fed or is there a need to lift it a bit? Single or
dual pipe system?

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Michael Chare]

A gauge to check the oil pressure is not that expensive.

--
Michael Chare

[Martin Brown]

On 19/07/2015 17:22, Ash Burton wrote:

> On 19/07/2015 16:36, Michael Chare wrote:
>> On 19/07/2015 16:07, Dave Liquorice wrote:
>>> On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 14:15:09 +0100, Ash Burton wrote:o start
>>>
>>>> Having a problem just in the last few weeks with our Trianco oil fired
>>>> combi-boiler burner locking out on timer start up.
>>> <snip>
>>>> Any suggestions as to what the problem could be?
>>>
>>> Have you watched it try and fail to run?
>>>
>>> Does the blower run? Do you get a spray of fuel? Do you get a flame?
>>> What colour is the flame? Water in the fuel, that can do weird things
>>> if it gets past the pump. Air leak on the suction side of pump?
>>>
>> Apart from the pump itself, you may need to replace any filters between
>> the tank and the pump.
>>
>>
> Thanks for the useful responses;
>
> The tank filter was replaced recently, i've not yet watched it try to
> start as it is set to come on before i get up.
>
> It fires OK when i press the reset button, so it would seem the oil is
> getting thru OK, the tank was recently refilled after the annual boiler
> service in May in which the oil is normally checked for water
> contamination, it's possible the new oil has water in it, although it
> ran OK for a few weeks before this problem occurred?

One I have seen with not unlike the symptoms you report is where the
solenoid valve wasn't quite closing completely and overnight there would
be a small amount of kerosene leaking from the spray nozzle.

The first ignite would burn it off but fail with a bad flame lockout.
The photocell becoming sooty after a few weeks of this in addition.

Subsequent restart would almost always work OK.

Basically you need to delay the overnight start so that you can watch it
and see what actually happens.

> It's possible there could be an air leak' i'll check that out, the
> frustrating thing is it fires as normal about 50% of the time, so it
> does seem to indicate something variable.

Another scary one is a leak on the exhaust side of the boiler. This
tends to result in more noise and in extremis escape of very hot gasses.
Again you get unexplained lockouts for bad/unstable flame.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[Ash Burton]

Ans. Usually from 10 at night to 7 in the morning. Lock out occurs
mainly in the morning but the burner will start immediately when
manually reset.

>
> Is the oil gravity fed or is there a need to lift it a bit? Single or
> dual pipe system?

Ans. The oil is gravity fed by single pipe from the tank which is approx
1 metre above ground (and boiler) level.

[Ash Burton]

> Basically you need to delay the overnight start so that you can watch it
> and see what actually happens.

That seems quite plausible, i will check that out .

>
> Another scary one is a leak on the exhaust side of the boiler. This
> tends to result in more noise and in extremis escape of very hot gasses.
> Again you get unexplained lockouts for bad/unstable flame.
>

Thanks,

I haven't noticed any of those symptoms, we have a carbon monoxide
detector in the boiler room which should operate if there was an exhaust
leak.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:59:37 +0100, Ash Burton wrote:

>> How long elapses between the boiler running and then failing to
>> start? Will it reliably start up to around that time?
>
> Ans. Usually from 10 at night to 7 in the morning. Lock out occurs
> mainly in the morning but the burner will start immediately when
> manually reset.

The leaky solenoid valve Mentioned by Mr Brown fits that, especially
if it'll reliably start during the day.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:07:29 +0100, Ash Burton wrote:

> I haven't noticed any of those symptoms, we have a carbon monoxide
> detector in the boiler room which should operate if there was an exhaust
> leak.

You'd probably notice the smell before the CO alarm. Oil exhaust is a
bit niffy and not like kerosene.

Also CO alarms aren't like smoke alarms, they have various levels of
"alarm" depending on the concentration and duration of the CO
precense. Might start by just flashing a red light, progress to
flashing light but faster with a beep and eventually a non stop
sounder "get the F out" full alarm.

A case of RTFM but if your FM is like the FM for our CO alarm it's as
clear as mud.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Ash Burton]

Thanks for all the responses, curiously the boiler has been behaving
itself for the past two weeks, starting as normal on the automatic timer.

Could it be that there was a small fragment of dirt (or water
contamination) in the oil feed which has cleared itself?

Another possibility suggested by Trianco is that if the electricity
supply voltage was below 230v that could cause the problem. I have had
that checked by the network operator and it seems some work is needed in
that regard.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Fri, 7 Aug 2015 13:54:42 +0100, Ash Burton wrote:

> Thanks for all the responses, curiously the boiler has been behaving
> itself for the past two weeks, starting as normal on the automatic
> timer.
>
> Could it be that there was a small fragment of dirt (or water
> contamination) in the oil feed which has cleared itself?

I think I'd put more money on that than:

> Another possibility suggested by Trianco is that if the electricity
> supply voltage was below 230v that could cause the problem. I have had
> that checked by the network operator and it seems some work is needed in
> that regard.

The lower limit is 216 V (230 - 6%). IIRC this problem was a morning
thing after not being called on for > 8 hrs or so. In my experience
the voltage floats high during the night as there is little load and
drops back to the "normal range" between 0600 and 0800.

Currently our ovenight voltage is about 255 droping to just under 240
by 0800. Yes I have complained to the DNO, there is some line work
going on and the local substation is being fed by a different
source/route. When i first complained they knocked 200 V off a 33 kV
regulator that made the expected drop but still outside the limit,
another 200 V and we were just under but it's gone back up recently.

Our supply is normally rock solid at 240 V +/- 5 V at the extremes,
24/7.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Ash Burton]

I spoke to soon, it locked out again this morning on timer start
up....Doh Ash

[Ash Burton]

On 07/08/2015 16:38, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Well after a protracted period of uncertainty over if the boiler would
start up or lock out in the mornings, things finally came to a head last
friday when it would not start at all.

It turned out to be that the ignition transformer was at fault, must
have been failing for a while and then eventually gave up the ghost.

A replacement has been fitted and it is stating normally again.

Thanks to all who gave constructive comments. Ash