Torbeck valve - how does it work?
chris French
- water only comes out through the bit where the float arm attaches,
not through the actual filler.
I've fiddled around with it a bit but it's still not working - I think
I'll just replace it rather than waste time anyway.
but how do the things actually work - it's not obvious from looking at
mine
--
Chris French
Bob Eager
Black magic, I always think. Most of the DIY books have an explanation.
Ours did the same last week. It was a tiny bit of grit in the needle-
sized hole in the outer cap - the hole that gets covered by the small
circular rubber pad on the float arm attachment. I used a needle and air
to clear it...at 12.30 a.m.!
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Dave Plowman (News)
chris French <newspos...@familyfrench.co.uk> wrote:
> but how do the things actually work - it's not obvious from looking at
> mine
That's a good question. I have no idea either. ;-)
--
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Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
YAPH
>> but how do the things actually work - it's not obvious from looking at
>> mine
>
> Black magic, I always think. Most of the DIY books have an explanation.
Indeed :-)
It's what's called an equilibrium valve. The basic principle is that water
pressure bears on both sides of the rubber diaphragm but there's more
surface area exposed to the water on the side that presses the diaphragm
against the inlet shutting off the water flow. But on that side there's a
tiny hole - the one you see which gets covered by the tiny rubber bung
attached to the float arm. When the float drops and uncovers the hole it
takes away the pressure holding the valve shut and water runs through the
valve, filling the cistern until the float rises and closes the hole
whereupon the pressure on that side closes the valve again.
Neat, huh? ;-)
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
"I used to think correlation implied causation.
Then I took a statistics course and now I don't."
"Sounds as if the statistics course helped."
"Well, maybe."
Peter Crosland
news:xuFw+2Bt...@blackhole.familyfrench.co.uk...
Hard to describe but think pressure differentials. They are a real pain in
the proverbial. Replace it with another type.
Peter Crosland
Bob Eager
> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:48:48 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
>
>>> but how do the things actually work - it's not obvious from looking at
>>> mine
>>
>> Black magic, I always think. Most of the DIY books have an explanation.
>
> Indeed :-)
>
> It's what's called an equilibrium valve. The basic principle is that
> water pressure bears on both sides of the rubber diaphragm but there's
> more surface area exposed to the water on the side that presses the
> diaphragm against the inlet shutting off the water flow. But on that
> side there's a tiny hole - the one you see which gets covered by the
> tiny rubber bung attached to the float arm. When the float drops and
> uncovers the hole it takes away the pressure holding the valve shut and
> water runs through the valve, filling the cistern until the float rises
> and closes the hole whereupon the pressure on that side closes the valve
> again.
>
> Neat, huh? ;-)
Until the hole gets blocked...they are very prone to dirt, etc. When
they've been repairing water mains nearby, or when they suddenly decided
to fit an external stoptap without telling us, dirt got in and buggered
it up...!
Dave
> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:48:48 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
>
>>> but how do the things actually work - it's not obvious from looking at
>>> mine
>> Black magic, I always think. Most of the DIY books have an explanation.
>
> Indeed :-)
>
> It's what's called an equilibrium valve. The basic principle is that water
> pressure bears on both sides of the rubber diaphragm but there's more
> surface area exposed to the water on the side that presses the diaphragm
> against the inlet shutting off the water flow. But on that side there's a
> tiny hole - the one you see which gets covered by the tiny rubber bung
> attached to the float arm. When the float drops and uncovers the hole it
> takes away the pressure holding the valve shut and water runs through the
> valve, filling the cistern until the float rises and closes the hole
> whereupon the pressure on that side closes the valve again.
>
> Neat, huh? ;-)
They work on the same principal as the air valves in an aircraft's
equipment cooling and air conditioning system. I had to go on a weeks
course to learn how it worked, but the most eye opening thing was how
the cockpit cooling was done, just using engine bleed air to cool the
crew down.
It works on the same principle as a fridge or air con unit by
compressing the coolant (air) to make it warm and then letting it
expand, so cooling it and dumping the heat. There were no motors
involved, it was all done by air driven devices.
Dave
The Medway Handyman
Agreed - spawn of the devil. Agin nature. Bring back the good old ball
valve.
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
Peter Crosland
news:z517n.31103$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Second only to the Saniflo but at least the Torbeck is relatively clean!
Peter Crosland
Tim Watts
wibbled:
Thank you all. I'll be plumbing my new bog soon. It came with a Torbeck
valve. It looks very fliddy. After reading this, I'm off to look for a
better valve/float assembly.
--
Tim Watts
Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
Andy Dingley
blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Agreed - spawn of the devil. Agin nature. Bring back the good old ball
> valve.
Ball valves?
Croydon valves (the sliding plunger) did, I suppose, keep a lot of
handymen employed (hmmm....) but they were rubbish at gradually
leaking. Torbecks, IMHE, have been utterly reliable, fast-filling and
quiet. OTOH, I haven't lived anywhere with hard water in years.
At present I've inherited some crappy American thing (dark grey, float
wraps the upstand pipe) and it just doesn't get on with a UK syphon.
It starts to refill instantly, so that if you let it fill at anything
more than a trickle it doesn't let the syphon break and so it's
continually semi-flushing indefinitely. Trying to throttle it with the
service ballvalve makes it noisy, slow and requires fiddling from time
to time. I have no intention of fitting the matching US-style flapper
valve, lest the unquiet spirit of Thomas Crapper return and haunt me
when that starts wasting water..
Roger Mills
m...@privacy.net <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 24 Jan,
> Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>
>> Thank you all. I'll be plumbing my new bog soon. It came with a
>> Torbeck valve. It looks very fliddy. After reading this, I'm off to
>> look for a better valve/float assembly.
>>
> I've torbecks in the two bogs and the loft tank. Much quieter than the
> non-equilibrium kind, and I've had no bother with them in well over
> ten years.
Agreed. Because the float only has a very short arm, it's only in the water
for the last little bit of fill - so you get full flow until the cistern is
virtually full, whereas a conventional float valve starts to shut off much
earlier.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
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PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!
John
>>
>> Hard to describe but think pressure differentials. They are a real
>> pain in the proverbial. Replace it with another type.
>
> Agreed - spawn of the devil. Agin nature. Bring back the good old ball
> valve.
>
>
> --
> Dave - The Medway Handyman
> www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
>
>
it?
Dave Liquorice
> I've torbecks in the two bogs and the loft tank. Much quieter than the
> non-equilibrium kind, and I've had no bother with them in well over ten
> years.
Same here nor problems at all fast fill and quiet. I wouldn't put one
on a loft tank without first checking the over flow can handle the
flow rate, as per the instructions...
--
Cheers
Dave.
The Medway Handyman
But I do understand it. And I've had to sort out loads of the buggers.
chris French
<watt....@googlemail.com> writes
>In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
>m...@privacy.net <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On 24 Jan,
>> Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you all. I'll be plumbing my new bog soon. It came with a
>>> Torbeck valve. It looks very fliddy. After reading this, I'm off to
>>> look for a better valve/float assembly.
>>>
>> I've torbecks in the two bogs and the loft tank. Much quieter than the
>> non-equilibrium kind, and I've had no bother with them in well over
>> ten years.
>
>
>Agreed. Because the float only has a very short arm, it's only in the water
>for the last little bit of fill - so you get full flow until the cistern is
>virtually full, whereas a conventional float valve starts to shut off much
>earlier.
The one I've now just replaced (wasn't worth fiddling with IMO) had
quite likely been there since the bathroom was installed - 20 years? The
one I fitted in my old house new cistern worked fine for about 5 years
before I moved here.
Anyway, I'm not sure an alternative valve would fit. It is a shallow
depth , built in cistern so there isn't much space in there.
Anyway, thanks folks i understand how they work now.
--
Chris French
Graham.
<m...@privacy.net> wrote in message news:50DED7FC2F%brian...@lycos.co.uk...
> On 24 Jan,
> Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>
>> Thank you all. I'll be plumbing my new bog soon. It came with a Torbeck
>> valve. It looks very fliddy. After reading this, I'm off to look for a
>> better valve/float assembly.
>>
> I've torbecks in the two bogs and the loft tank. Much quieter than the
> non-equilibrium kind, and I've had no bother with them in well over ten
> years.
I'm with you about liking my Torbeck, the water either runs full rate or
not at all, rather than a ball balve progressively reducing the rate to a dribble
before the level is high enough to prime the siphon.
The same toilet has got a "Pacific" siphon with a wrinkled rubber seal and
I can't get a replacement.That can be a nuisance, good job I'm not on
a meter.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Tim Watts
Very polarised opinions on Torbecks... Seems to be a love them or hate
them?
Andy Dingley
> Very polarised opinions on Torbecks... Seems to be a love them or hate
> them?
Most people love how they work, some report problems with limescale on
the tiny valve hole.
If you're in a soft water area, no problem.
Dave Plowman (News)
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 26 Jan,
> Andy Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
> That could be it, soft water, I've three of them, no problems, quiet,
> fast filling etc.
It's pretty hard water in this part of London and the one in my toilet
lasted 20 years or so. Might have been able to repair it with a kit if I
understood how they worked - but a complete one didn't break the bank and
was worth it for the silence...
--
*Learn from your parents' mistakes - use birth control.
chris French
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> writes
>In article <50DFC1B73F%brian...@lycos.co.uk>,
> <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On 26 Jan,
>> Andy Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>
>> > On 26 Jan, 14:37, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Very polarised opinions on Torbecks... Seems to be a love them or
>> > > hate them?
>> >
>> > Most people love how they work, some report problems with limescale on
>> > the tiny valve hole.
>> >
>> > If you're in a soft water area, no problem.
>
>> That could be it, soft water, I've three of them, no problems, quiet,
>> fast filling etc.
>
>It's pretty hard water in this part of London and the one in my toilet
>lasted 20 years or so.
It's hard water here as well, and the old one had done well I think.
>Might have been able to repair it with a kit if I
>understood how they worked - but a complete one didn't break the bank and
>was worth it for the silence...
>
Yup, replacing was the sensible option from my POV
--
Chris French
stev...@sallyandsteve.com
Onetap
> On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 15:48:48 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
>
> It's what's called an equilibrium valve. The basic principle is that water
> pressure bears on both sides of the rubber diaphragm but there's more
> surface area exposed to the water on the side that presses the diaphragm
Many solenoid valves operate on the same principle, with only the little pilot jet operated by the solenoid and most of the water flow controlled by the diaphragm, that itself is operated by the pilot.
The diaphragm diverter valves installed in many combi boilers work the same way, the diaphragm actuator being operated by the release of water pressure when a hot tap is opened.
I have a torbeck valve on my loft tank, worked fine for 5 years until the water suppliers did something to my connection to the main and filled it with dirt.
The replacement suffered from severe water hammer, but the makers sent a 'prototype' adaptor, free of charge, that solved that.
harryagain
<stev...@sallyandsteve.com> wrote in message
news:d66723c6-302a-4ab5...@googlegroups.com...
The pressure on the diaphragm is greater on the pressure chamber side
because it has a greater area than the valve orifice.
The needle valve in the middle releases the water behind the diaphragm in
the pressure chamber to let the valve open.
The other tiny hole in the diaphragm seat lets water out of the pressure
chamber so the valve can close./seat itself
If the valve dribbles (ie doesn't properly close) is is because this latter
hole is blocked.
Fred Turton
>
> Indeed :-)
> It's what's called an equilibrium valve. The basic principle is that water
> pressure bears on both sides of the rubber diaphragm but there's more
> surface area exposed to the water on the side that presses the diaphragm
> against the inlet shutting off the water flow. But on that side there's a
> tiny hole - the one you see which gets covered by the tiny rubber bung
> attached to the float arm. When the float drops and uncovers the hole it
> takes away the pressure holding the valve shut and water runs through the
> valve, filling the cistern until the float rises and closes the hole
> whereupon the pressure on that side closes the valve again.
> Neat, huh? ;-)
times. The float mechanism wont shut off the water supply. It just gushes
out. I have tried different diaphragms but the response is the same. I
have fitted various other types of valves, which have always been
successful. I have given up on the Torbeck.
--
Fred Turton
> usenet wrote:
>
> Indeed :-)
> It's what's called an equilibrium valve. The basic principle is that water
> pressure bears on both sides of the rubber diaphragm but there's more
> surface area exposed to the water on the side that presses the diaphragm
> against the inlet shutting off the water flow. But on that side there's a
> tiny hole - the one you see which gets covered by the tiny rubber bung
> attached to the float arm. When the float drops and uncovers the hole it
> takes away the pressure holding the valve shut and water runs through the
> valve, filling the cistern until the float rises and closes the hole
> whereupon the pressure on that side closes the valve again.
> Neat, huh? ;-)
straight from the pack. As I couldn't stop the gushing I undid the blue
cap to look at the diaphragm but still had no luck.
--
Bob Eager
Dave Liquorice
> times. The float mechanism wont shut off the water supply. It just
> gushes out.
> I have given up on the Torbeck.
> As I couldn't stop the gushing I undid the blue cap to look at the
> diaphragm but still had no luck.
Though it appears that they only use it on equlibrium valves.
Fliudmaster also make float valves and use the Delchem(tm) trademark
on that type. Both have blue caps but the Delchem(tm) float valves
also have a blue body and big long arm for the normal 4" dia ball to
attach to.
--
Cheers
Dave.
DerbyBorn
>
As I recall they don't respond immediately when manually operated.
stuart noble
> >
>
> As I recall they don't respond immediately when manually operated.
The original has lasted 30 years, so like for like replacement seemed the best option. Attaching that plastic sleeve was a bugger though
e...@makewrite.demon.co.uk
[Ideal standard seems to have taken this approach further than most and made almost everything they have different to the everyone else. As someone said there's nothing standard about Ideal Standard.]
Agree with those who say work well but vulnerable to debris.
Ed
Paul Edwards
I was just about to lose it, then read your post, thank you so much! Yep, give
it 5-10 seconds and it works perfectly. Thanks again!!
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/torbeck-valve-how-does-it-work-610758-.htm
Max Demian
> replying to DerbyBorn, Paul Edwards wrote:
> I was just about to lose it, then read your post, thank you so much!
> Yep, give
> it 5-10 seconds and it works perfectly. Thanks again!!
That's good news if it's permanent.
--
Max Demian
Dave W
wrote:
--
Dave W
solars...@gmail.com
Hers is a slimline cistern, so the good old Portsmouth type that I have at home isn't an option.
GB
> My girlfriend's Torbeck-based cistern started filling very slowly. Eventually found the problem - a small slit in the diaphragm. This meant the water pressure both sides was more-or-less the same, hence it couldn't open properly. Looking at the thing, under normal circumstances, the very small hole that goes over the locating pin is a tiny bleed hole similar in size to the hole at the float end, so pressure on the float side is much less until the float stops off that end. If the diaphragm splits, the 'bleed' effect is much greater. Most irritatingly: found her local Wickes had stock, ordered by click and collect, and found when I'd got back they'd given me a 'Fluidmaster' diaphragm, which looks the same but has the small hole in the middle, not to one side. And due to Covid, they had shut by the time I realised. Amazon and eBay both stock them, but when I want it, I want it NOW!!!!
>
> Hers is a slimline cistern, so the good old Portsmouth type that I have at home isn't an option.
>
for a couple of hours, still.
Andy Burns
> Toolstation will sell you NOW a replacement Torbeck valve for £7. Open
> for a couple of hours, still.
Jim GM4DHJ ...
>
> Hers is a slimline cistern, so the good old Portsmouth type that I have at home isn't an option.
>
Bob Eager
one of them shattered. I replaced it with a Torbeck years ago.
The onoly problem is that sometimes it doesn't shut off properly and the
overflow starts to run. Always caused by a tiny bit of grit blocking the
bleed hole under the arm [1]. Take it apart, compressed air, job done.
[1] Generally when they've been digging up the pipes nearby.
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor
JD2
Finally found the problem with the Torbeck valve. Has anybody else found the
SECOND rubber? If you carefully pries of the lever arm you will see a black
rubber washer in the arm. It is only about 3mm in diameter. Look at the
surface through a magnifying glass and there may be ware makes on it. This is
the seal that closes off the bleed air valve. If you find a supplier of a
replacement let me know. Meantime pries out the washer and reverse it. Careful
it will spring out and disappear for ever. Reassemble and have a quiet nights
sleep. JD2