Replace soil stack/stench pipe with AAV
Jethro
corner of the house (it's an "L" shaped bungalow). Next door (2 storey
house) has a stench pipe running to above their eaves.
Is is possible to replace our pipe with a 120cm pipe capped with an
air admittance valve ? 120 cm will put it above the overflow of all
sinks in the house.
Is it as simple as remove old cast iron pipe, fix a slightly smaller
pipe into exposed pipe with sealant ?
Any makes to recommend ?
Tim Watts
wibbled:
Well, there is one problem - and I would advise a quick shufty at the
appropriate Building Regs document (Google for "Approved Document H"):
An AAV does not deal with positive air pressure (ie venting the sewer to
the atmosphere. AAVs are used where local suction effects (due to
flushing the bog for instance) are liable to suck u-traps dry.
I think you will need at least one vent to atmosphere, but it *may* be
possible to provide one dry vent in 32mm.
Suggest looking at the document I mentioned, pages 10-14 and 23 (actual
page numbers as printed, not PDF numbers).
> Any makes to recommend ?
Floplast seem OK generally.
--
Tim Watts
Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
Doctor Drivel
"Tim Watts" <t...@dionic.net> wrote in message
news:hj1m7n$2uo$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 04:46:09 -0800, Jethro <jeth...@hotmail.com>
> wibbled:
>
>> Currently we have sodding godawful stench pipe which runs in the corner
>> of the house (it's an "L" shaped bungalow). Next door (2 storey house)
>> has a stench pipe running to above their eaves.
>>
>> Is is possible to replace our pipe with a 120cm pipe capped with an air
>> admittance valve ? 120 cm will put it above the overflow of all sinks in
>> the house.
>>
>> Is it as simple as remove old cast iron pipe, fix a slightly smaller
>> pipe into exposed pipe with sealant ?
>
> Well, there is one problem - and I would advise a quick shufty at the
> appropriate Building Regs document (Google for "Approved Document H"):
>
> An AAV does not deal with positive air pressure (ie venting the sewer to
> the atmosphere. AAVs are used where local suction effects (due to
> flushing the bog for instance) are liable to suck u-traps dry.
>
> I think you will need at least one vent to atmosphere, but it *may* be
> possible to provide one dry vent in 32mm.
The rule is...
Every 5th house needs a vent and every end of line. All the rest can have
AAVs or HepVos.
Doctor Drivel
"Jethro" <jeth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4511db2a-8f1d-44e5...@l19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
You cannot do it if you are the end of sewer line. Yes it is OK to do. Look
at HepVO traps on all sanitary appliances,and do away with the whole stack.
JimK
> "Jethro" <jethro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
erm..... thought you couldn't *legally* use AAVs outside ? something
about freezing up?
mines been fine for a decade however.....:>))
JimK
Doctor Drivel
"JimK" <jk98...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:704d1e5f-b2db-4573...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
HepVO traps are not outside.
JimK
> "JimK" <jk989...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
nor do they serve WCs
Doctor Drivel
They do. They vent the whole stack. Now you know.
JimK
sigh.... i was clarifying that there isn't a hepvo for a bog...for
sinks, baths yes but not for a 110mm bog connection...
how can the op "do away with whole stack" as you advocate - what about
the bog connection? it will still need some stack to that and above
for flood regs? if topped with an AAV - technically illegal outside I
believe?
do you know? :>)
JimK
The Natural Philosopher
Drivel doesn't know anything.
You must be new here.
Anyway the purpose of an AAV is quite different to a stack.
The stack is there to prevent positive pressure and (inflammable) gas
build up in sewers.
The AAV is there to avoid vacuum when an adjacent device empties from
sucking the traps dry.
Legally you need an open vent every few yards of sewer.
The general rule is one stack per house, and as many AAV's as you need.
You can get small or large ones . Or fit adaptors to them.
> JimK
Tim Watts
wibbled:
> On Jan 18, 10:53 pm, "Doctor Drivel" <killef...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> "JimK" <jk989...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:dece4bdb-34cc-4761-8aa6-
cbcccb...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jan 18, 8:55 pm, "Doctor Drivel" <killef...@invalid.invalid>
>> > wrote:
>> >> "JimK" <jk989...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:704d1e5f-b2db-4573-ab54-
d258c5...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > On Jan 18, 2:49 pm, "Doctor Drivel" <killef...@invalid.invalid>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> "Jethro" <jethro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >> >>news:4511db2a-8f1d-44e5-
bd68-750...@l19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
I came across an AAV that claimed to be rated for outside use - can't now
remember who made it.
That doesn't solve +ve pressure concerns though. However, if my initial
scan of Part H was right, it may be possible to vent somewhere more
convenient in 32mm and use AAVs on each branch to deal with -ve
pressures. OP will have to satisfy himself on those points though, but
Part H has lots of helpful diagrams.
I concluded I needed a >75mm vent pipe (used the standard 82mm pipe) but
that was the main vent (+ve and suction) to an entire branch of
underground drains with various tees - though the BCO said it would
clearly be fine with something smaller, it wasn't really a problem and
like 110, 82 is tough old stuff suited to underground and rooftop
deployment.
I'm not a fan of unnecessary AAVs, so I'm deploying them only as and
where provably needed. eg, I will have one on the bathroom bog stack as
that is it's own branch with the basin attached and bogs create large
amounts of suction. As others have said, a HepVO on the basin would also
work.
I didn't bother with AAVs on the 5m 50mm branches to the kitchen and bath
which feed into a separate 110 branch (no bog on this section) and
everything works fine, unsurprisingly, as the water only fills half the
50mm pipe in the worst case use, leaving a continuous air gap above it -
no way for suction to form.
Tim Watts
<t...@invalid.invalid> wibbled:
>
> The general rule is one stack per house, and as many AAV's as you need.
>
> You can get small or large ones . Or fit adaptors to them.
>
And don't buy them at the builder's merchants - notorious for overpricing.
I'm trying my luck with a Floplast 50mm AAV and 110-50mm adaptor for my
bog. Initial mouth tests indicate the Floplast is silent (some AAVs can
be quite "farty") and a good free flow in one direction. If it causes
problems, I'll upgrade to a 110 AAV, but those are quite bulky,
especially as I need to put in a stub pipe vertically to get it above the
flood line.
tony sayer
<t...@dionic.net> scribeth thus
>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:25:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
><t...@invalid.invalid> wibbled:
>
>>
>> The general rule is one stack per house, and as many AAV's as you need.
>>
>> You can get small or large ones . Or fit adaptors to them.
>>
>
>And don't buy them at the builder's merchants - notorious for overpricing.
So where would you buy cheaper?...
>
>I'm trying my luck with a Floplast 50mm AAV and 110-50mm adaptor for my
>bog. Initial mouth tests indicate the Floplast is silent (some AAVs can
>be quite "farty") and a good free flow in one direction. If it causes
>problems, I'll upgrade to a 110 AAV, but those are quite bulky,
>especially as I need to put in a stub pipe vertically to get it above the
>flood line.
>
>
>
--
Tony Sayer
Tim Watts
wibbled:
> In article <hj43gh$me2$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim Watts
> <t...@dionic.net> scribeth thus
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:25:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>><t...@invalid.invalid> wibbled:
>>
>>
>>> The general rule is one stack per house, and as many AAV's as you
>>> need.
>>>
>>> You can get small or large ones . Or fit adaptors to them.
>>>
>>>
>>And don't buy them at the builder's merchants - notorious for
>>overpricing.
>
> So where would you buy cheaper?...
BES, MasterPlastics to name two, depending on the part.
First, I'd decide on the part (110 or 50mm), then either search by 110
AAV or narrow it down to a specific part number, say FloPlast and search
for that.
tony sayer
<t...@dionic.net> scribeth thus
>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:06:23 +0000, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
>wibbled:
>
>> In article <hj43gh$me2$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim Watts
>> <t...@dionic.net> scribeth thus
>>>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:25:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>>><t...@invalid.invalid> wibbled:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The general rule is one stack per house, and as many AAV's as you
>>>> need.
>>>>
>>>> You can get small or large ones . Or fit adaptors to them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>And don't buy them at the builder's merchants - notorious for
>>>overpricing.
>>
>> So where would you buy cheaper?...
>
>BES, MasterPlastics to name two, depending on the part.
>
None of them appear to have branches around here (Cambridge) still it
seems if you haggle a bit they'll drop the price a bit .. sometimes like
some heating bits less than what you can buy online;))..
>First, I'd decide on the part (110 or 50mm), then either search by 110
>AAV or narrow it down to a specific part number, say FloPlast and search
>for that.
>
>
>
>
>
--
Tony Sayer
Tim Watts
wibbled:
> In article <hj4536$rqj$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim Watts
> <t...@dionic.net> scribeth thus
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:06:23 +0000, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
>>wibbled:
>>
>>> In article <hj43gh$me2$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim Watts
>>> <t...@dionic.net> scribeth thus
>>>>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:25:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>>>><t...@invalid.invalid> wibbled:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The general rule is one stack per house, and as many AAV's as you
>>>>> need.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can get small or large ones . Or fit adaptors to them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>And don't buy them at the builder's merchants - notorious for
>>>>overpricing.
>>>
>>> So where would you buy cheaper?...
>>
>>BES, MasterPlastics to name two, depending on the part.
>>
>>
> None of them appear to have branches around here (Cambridge) still it
> seems if you haggle a bit they'll drop the price a bit .. sometimes like
> some heating bits less than what you can buy online;))..
Err, Tony - both of those are online suppliers ;->
OK - Masterplastics, trading as www.fascias.com do a very comprehensive
range of FloPlast (including fiddly weird bits and 82mm stuff) - but
don't actually seem to do the AAV.
BES:
http://www.bes.co.uk/product/130b~PL~2602~2602~-Air-Admittance-Valves.html
82 and 110, 16 quid+VAT+delivery - good if you need some other bits too -
typically fast delivery.
This is the AF32 Floplast (32/40/50mm AAV) I have:
http://www.humm-busters.com/en/AF32.html
BTW - It is FloPlast who claim an external grade AAV:
http://www.floplast.co.uk/uploads/AAV%20leaflet%20black%20and%20white.pdf
And some useful reading:
http://www.floplast.co.uk/uploads/Air%20Admittance%20Valves.pdf
JimK
wrote:
> Anyway the purpose of an AAV is quite different to a stack.
>
> The stack is there to prevent positive pressure and (inflammable) gas
> build up in sewers.
*AND*
>to avoid vacuum when an adjacent device empties from
> sucking the traps dry.
> The AAV is there to avoid vacuum when an adjacent device empties from
> sucking the traps dry.
which as Drivel says could technically be achieved by HepVOs on say
the sink/bath without the need for an AAV - *unless* the BCO insists
on some other arrangement. If BCO's being picky (and AIUI) you can't
*officially* use an AAV outside so what other arragement could the OP
do - Tim's 32/80mm vent pipe seems the only one?
Spose *officially* BCO would have to decide whether OP's house can
have stack pipe altered given that it sounds like it's the OP's
houses' only stack?
JimK
Doctor Drivel
"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:hj41a4$grb$1...@news.albasani.net...
Drivel detected. You have only half a clue what you drivel about.
Doctor Drivel
Not another one. Another know-it-all. The basin, shower and bath are
connected to the same stack the toilet is on, air ingress is via the HepVos.
Look at Hepworths info. On the web. Do a Goodle on HepVo on this forum.
JimK
oh quelle surprise....
Yes I know what HepVOs do I have some fitted here...
why don;t you read the rest of the thread FFS?
JimK
Doctor Drivel
Yep:
Benefits
The Building Regulations, Document H1 sub
section 1.31, stipulates that any soil and vent
pipe installed externally within three metres of
any opening window, is required to terminate
a minimum of 900mm above the window.
This new development to the traditional
internal Air Admittance Valve allows a
soil stack fitted with an external Air Admittance
Valve to terminate within three metres of a
window opening. This allows the pipe to
terminate at the same height as if it were
installed internally i.e. 200mm minimum above
the highest wet entry point to the soil vent pipe.
(diagrams a & b).
The use of an external Air Admittance Valve
eliminates the need for the installer to work and
handle pipe above the roof line, making it
easier to comply with Work at Height (WAHR)
and Manual Handling Regulations.
The Floplast external AAV can terminate below a window if window is 3metres
away. This precludes most UK homes. If the stack is nearer than 3 meters
to a window then it has to terminate 900mm above the window - may as well
dispense of the external AAV then.
Look at HepVos
Doctor Drivel
You were saying HepVos do not work when a toilet is on the stack. They do.
JimK
bollocks - where?
you have said in this very thread :-
"Look at HepVO traps on all sanitary appliances,and do away with the
whole stack"
a bog is a sanitary appliance yet no HepVO is going to fit it - is
it?
anyway the OP can;t do away with the *whole* stack as he will need
some for the bog to connect to!?.. simples! ;>)
JimK
Tim Watts
<kill...@invalid.invalid> wibbled:
> Benefits
>
> The Building Regulations, Document H1 sub section 1.31, stipulates that
> any soil and vent pipe installed externally within three metres of any
> opening window, is required to terminate a minimum of 900mm above the
> window.
> This new development to the traditional internal Air Admittance Valve
> allows a soil stack fitted with an external Air Admittance Valve to
> terminate within three metres of a window opening. This allows the pipe
> to terminate at the same height as if it were installed internally i.e.
> 200mm minimum above the highest wet entry point to the soil vent pipe.
> (diagrams a & b).
> The use of an external Air Admittance Valve eliminates the need for the
> installer to work and handle pipe above the roof line, making it easier
> to comply with Work at Height (WAHR) and Manual Handling Regulations.
>
> The Floplast external AAV can terminate below a window if window is
> 3metres away. This precludes most UK homes. If the stack is nearer
> than 3 meters to a window then it has to terminate 900mm above the
> window - may as well dispense of the external AAV then.
Although these are useful if they get you out of a sticky situation,
personally I think they're a crap idea if you have the option of an open
vent as is most usually the case with an external stack (OP's complain
excepted).
An open vent with a bird-grill on top has almost nothing that can go
wrong with it.
Also, the bit about working above the roofline is bollocks. Generally,
IME, the last clip supporting the pipe is below the roofline. Adding the
bit above the roofline is generally no more difficult than pre assembling
a bit of pipe (about a metre or so) with 2 45 degree couplers (preferably
solvent weld for rigidity) to offset round any guttering and a bird mesh
on the top. Up the ladder, this is fixed (solvent weld again best) to the
top of the stack. Even easier would be to make up a 2m section including
the offset and plug it in a push fit coupler, securing the new part with
a couple of clips to the wall.
I can see these things being in demand so that internal stacks don't need
to perforate the roof (vent from the loft) but even there, I think
there's going to be less long term grief taking them outside. AAVs are
going to fail sooner or later so they introduce a maintenance issue.
Certainly had no trouble with the first approach with mine.
Doctor Drivel
You are obviously quite thick and a know-it-all. I directed you to the
Hepwroth site, yet you still type back bollox. All is there. No stack above
the wc is permitted using HepVo's
Doctor Drivel
> Although these are useful if they get you out of a sticky situation,
> personally I think they're a crap idea if you have the option of an open
> vent as is most usually the case with an external stack (OP's complain
> excepted).
>
> An open vent with a bird-grill on top has almost nothing that can go
> wrong with it.
>
> Also, the bit about working above the roofline is bollocks. Generally,
> IME, the last clip supporting the pipe is below the roofline. Adding the
> bit above the roofline is generally no more difficult than pre assembling
> a bit of pipe (about a metre or so) with 2 45 degree couplers (preferably
> solvent weld for rigidity) to offset round any guttering and a bird mesh
> on the top. Up the ladder, this is fixed (solvent weld again best) to the
> top of the stack. Even easier would be to make up a 2m section including
> the offset and plug it in a push fit coupler, securing the new part with
> a couple of clips to the wall.
>
> I can see these things being in demand so that internal stacks don't need
> to perforate the roof (vent from the loft) but even there, I think
> there's going to be less long term grief taking them outside. AAVs are
> going to fail sooner or later so they introduce a maintenance issue.
> Certainly had no trouble with the first approach with mine.
You are right about getting around the gutters. It is easy to do and you
don't need to get on the roof.
I believe they will allow 80mm above the point where no water will enter the
stack, for venting. I once saw a 110mm stack enter the loft then go to
80mm. It went across the joists and out via the eves, doing down and up
around the gutter using elbows and a bird cage on top. The roof tiles were
not penetrated. It is only venting. I am not sure if it legal. It had a
tee with a short piece and access plug, rather than an elbow, on the
external vertical section. I assumed this was to remove any debris than may
have fallen down the vent and collected at the bottom of the loop. It must
have saved a ton of time and expense rather than take up a roof tile which
needs staging access. All he had was a footed ladder.
Tim Watts
<kill...@invalid.invalid> wibbled:
> You are right about getting around the gutters. It is easy to do and you
> don't need to get on the roof.
It was one bit of the building regs I did read in some detail.
> I believe they will allow 80mm above the point where no water will enter
> the stack, for venting.
Yes - technically 75mm - but that has obviously been chosen so that any
variant on 80/82mm pipe will do even if those are outside diameters and
the regs call for inside diameters...
> I once saw a 110mm stack enter the loft then go
> to 80mm. It went across the joists and out via the eves, doing down and
> up around the gutter using elbows and a bird cage on top.
Bizarre but functional. The worst it will do is get some water in the
lowest bit, but that will clear if its services are required.
> The roof
> tiles were not penetrated. It is only venting. I am not sure if it
> legal. It had a tee with a short piece and access plug, rather than an
> elbow, on the external vertical section. I assumed this was to remove
> any debris than may have fallen down the vent and collected at the
> bottom of the loop. It must have saved a ton of time and expense rather
> than take up a roof tile which needs staging access. All he had was a
> footed ladder.
Mine isn't even directly from a wet stack (those all appear under various
parts of the floor). Mine is a separate vent pipe directly teed off the
furthest leg of the underground drains close to where a loo couples in
close to the 1st inspection chamber (convenient - needed to retro fit the
vent, found a tee in the pipe for a gulley drain - removed gulley and
connected vent with a 82mm adaptor underground).
JimK
and you fail to appreciate the context of anything that does not
immediately agree with your (universally derided) utterings.
>> You were saying HepVos do not work when a toilet is on the stack. They
>> do.
still bollocks - where did i say that?
put up or shut the F up...
enough said.
Doctor Drivel
You nothing of HepVo's and are very thick. This is a poor combination and
what have written is overt proof of this combination. Sad but true.
JimK
last word!
tony sayer
<t...@dionic.net> scribeth thus
>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:04:01 +0000, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
>wibbled:
>
>> In article <hj4536$rqj$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim Watts
>> <t...@dionic.net> scribeth thus
>>>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:06:23 +0000, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
>>>wibbled:
>>>
>>>> In article <hj43gh$me2$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim Watts
>>>> <t...@dionic.net> scribeth thus
>>>>>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:25:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>>>>><t...@invalid.invalid> wibbled:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The general rule is one stack per house, and as many AAV's as you
>>>>>> need.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can get small or large ones . Or fit adaptors to them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>And don't buy them at the builder's merchants - notorious for
>>>>>overpricing.
>>>>
>>>> So where would you buy cheaper?...
>>>
>>>BES, MasterPlastics to name two, depending on the part.
>>>
>>>
>> None of them appear to have branches around here (Cambridge) still it
>> seems if you haggle a bit they'll drop the price a bit .. sometimes like
>> some heating bits less than what you can buy online;))..
>
>Err, Tony - both of those are online suppliers ;->
Thats why I can't find them then;)..
>
>OK - Masterplastics, trading as www.fascias.com do a very comprehensive
>range of FloPlast (including fiddly weird bits and 82mm stuff) - but
>don't actually seem to do the AAV.
>
>BES:
>
>http://www.bes.co.uk/product/130b~PL~2602~2602~-Air-Admittance-Valves.html
>
>82 and 110, 16 quid+VAT+delivery - good if you need some other bits too -
>typically fast delivery.
Well a lot of the time when I need stuff like that I need it now and
more often than not will go and get it from a decent local BM here who's
prices when you haggle a bit will come close to or very near those
online. Plus there are some very product knowledgeable people there
too..
Plus you haven't got to hang around waiting for delivery wagons to turn
up...and than if you need to exchange something as its not quite the
right bit or you can take that bit with you and compare it with wheat
they have etc...or if it goes wrong then you've got to bag it up to
return etc.
Which is the biggest bug bear of buying online and they never seem to
get that any more user friendly..
Same with a lot of other stuff like computer bits we have World of
Computers here who's prices are around those online and by the time
you've factored in delivery costs etc..
Course not everyone might be so well served;!....
--
Tony Sayer
Tim Watts
wibbled:
True - at least you know what to beat them (BM) down to. Some of ours
would charge 40 quid for a 110 AAV.
Rick Hughes
"Doctor Drivel" <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:hj2jhd$inc$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "JimK" <jk98...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>> On Jan 18, 2:49 pm, "Doctor Drivel" <killef...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Jethro" <jethro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:4511db2a-8f1d-44e5...@l19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>> erm..... thought you couldn't *legally* use AAVs outside ? something
>> about freezing up?
I have HepVo throughout on my place avoided dual stacks.
Rick Hughes
"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:UVwmLPKvIZVLFws$@bancom.co.uk...
> In article <hj43gh$me2$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim Watts
> <t...@dionic.net> scribeth thus
>>On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:25:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>><t...@invalid.invalid> wibbled:
>>
>>>
>>> The general rule is one stack per house, and as many AAV's as you need.
>>>
>>> You can get small or large ones . Or fit adaptors to them.
>>>
>>
>>And don't buy them at the builder's merchants - notorious for overpricing.
>
> So where would you buy cheaper?...
>
>>
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