b&q performance power generators
Fred
I see there is a 2-stroke and a 4-stroke"performance power" generator
reduced to clear at B&Q. Are either of them any good?
TIA
Fred
wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I see there is a 2-stroke and a 4-stroke"performance power" generator
>reduced to clear at B&Q. Are either of them any good?
>
Sorry to reply to myself but I realised that my earlier post was thin
on the ground.
Neither generator seems to be on B&Q's web site. They are cream in
colour.
The 2-stroke is the typical 700ish Watts peak but does not seem to
have the 12v output that some do. OTOH I think someone said it wasn't
worth running a generator just to top-up a battery: something to do
with it being a small load?
The 4 stroke is, I think, rated 2.4kW peak. I didn't have a proper
look and was going to go back and read the box but if you don't think
it's worth bothering with, I'll save my time an petrol.
I think both of them say "not for electronic devices". Why? I thought
generator outputs were pretty clean?
I was looking for a small 2-stroke to keep the boiler going if the
electric went off in this bad weather but I am wondering if the bigger
4 stroke would be more versatile and keep the TV on too!
BTW has anyone found the Auto express review of 2-stroke generators:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/products/208347/portable_generators.html
I thought all 2 strokes were the same but they found the SIP sold by
Tool station was not as good as the Wolf ones formerly sold by
Screwfix and Aldi.
Why would that be? I thought they were all made by the same company
and just painted differently.
TIA
Peter Parry
wrote:
>Why would that be? I thought they were all made by the same company
>and just painted differently.
A lot of these magazine tests are carried out by asking the
manufacturers to provide samples on loan. Some manufacturers prepare
them better than others before handing them over. Even when they are
bought usually only one is and the variation between individual
samples of the same model of cheap generators is often considerable.
Fred
wrote:
>A lot of these magazine tests are carried out by asking the
>manufacturers to provide samples on loan. Some manufacturers prepare
>them better than others before handing them over.
Is there much adjustment to be done? I thought it was just a matter of
filling with fuel and pulling the handle?
>Even when they are
>bought usually only one is and the variation between individual
>samples of the same model of cheap generators is often considerable.
Why is that? Don't they all have the same motors bolted to the same
alternators, etc? If I buy one, let's hope I get one from a good batch
rather than one of he poorer batches ;)
Appin
from Fred <fr...@no-email.here.invalid> contains these words:
> I think both of them say "not for electronic devices". Why? I thought
> generator outputs were pretty clean?
Far from clean and sometimes far from sine wave.
Voltage and especially frequency regulation is often very poor --
according to my electricity supply contacts it's the poor frequency
regulation that kills the electronics in their experience.
Peter Parry
wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:36:55 +0000, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
>wrote:
>>A lot of these magazine tests are carried out by asking the
>>manufacturers to provide samples on loan. Some manufacturers prepare
>>them better than others before handing them over.
>
>Is there much adjustment to be done? I thought it was just a matter of
>filling with fuel and pulling the handle?
If you want one to do well you could rebuild the engine polishing out
all the rough bits, select a generator with high output, check the
regulator works properly etc.
>>Even when they are
>>bought usually only one is and the variation between individual
>>samples of the same model of cheap generators is often considerable.
>
>Why is that?
Poor manufacturing tolerances and poor quality materials. The cheaper
end of the Chinese manufacturing sector doesn't yet understand words
like "consistency" so different components will be used randomly and
many different sub-contractors parts used without any real quality
checks. It is not for nothing that the useless "CE" mark is usually
taken to mean "Chinese Export".
>Don't they all have the same motors bolted to the same
>alternators, etc?
Oh yes - it's just that the "5HP" (or whatever) motor will produce
anything between 1 and 4 HP and the alternator is good for a maximum
out put of 100W, or 200, or 500 or some other pseudo random figure.
Roger Mills
Appin <ap...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
A lot depends on the technology used by the generator - which, in turn, is
reflected in the price.
Better - more expensive - generators produce DC which is fed into an
inverter to produce AC - and these are *very* stable in all respects -
voltage, frequency and accuracy of sine wave. Cheaper ones use AC
alternators - whose output (voltage and frequency) is all over the place
when the load changes.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Fred
wrote:
>
>Poor manufacturing tolerances and poor quality materials. The cheaper
>end of the Chinese manufacturing sector doesn't yet understand words
>like "consistency" so different components will be used randomly and
>many different sub-contractors parts used without any real quality
>checks.
Oh dear. So you really do get what you pay for in this case. I wonder
at what point does something switch from electrical to electronic?
When these generators say not for electronic devices, isn't everything
electronic these days? I was thinking I would get the 4 stroke
generator to power the freezer and the tv but now I am wondering
whether to sit in the dark instead! I may just get the cheaper 2
stroke one and just run the boiler; at least we would stay warm. We
haven't had any trouble yet but with the bad weather and reports on
the news about people without electricity, it made me think. Once the
snow melts, I'll forget about it for another year ;)
Fred
<watt....@googlemail.com> wrote:
>A lot depends on the technology used by the generator - which, in turn, is
>reflected in the price.
I was going to buy just in case of a power cut, which I hope is
unlikely and infrequent occurrence so I can't justify buying a Honda
for a once in a blue moon scenario. I thought a fifty pound 2 stroke
might be worth looking at though.
Andrew Gabriel
Strange, I can't imagine frequency having any bearing on electronics.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Roger Mills
If you want an inverter-based generator without paying Honda prices, have a
look at this one from Machine Mart:
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/clarke-1kw-inverter-generator-ig1000/path/petrol-driven-suitcase-type-generators
It's less than half the price of the equivalent Honda jobbie - but still a
bit more than your �50 2-stroke model!
Bear in mind - if you want to be able to power your central heating
electrics with it - that most boilers (except very old ones) have lots of
electronics in them. I wouldn't risk using a very cheap generator with mine!
Dave Osborne
> In article <3130303036363...@zetnet.co.uk>,
> Appin <ap...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
>> The message <kn6pk596lv72blmle...@4ax.com>
>> from Fred <fr...@no-email.here.invalid> contains these words:
>>
>>> I think both of them say "not for electronic devices". Why? I thought
>>> generator outputs were pretty clean?
>> Far from clean and sometimes far from sine wave.
>>
>> Voltage and especially frequency regulation is often very poor --
>> according to my electricity supply contacts it's the poor frequency
>> regulation that kills the electronics in their experience.
>
> Strange, I can't imagine frequency having any bearing on electronics.
>
Well, a change in frequency would make a power transformer more or less
efficient and would affect any real time clock which was deriving its
timing from the mains frequency (unlikely I know in this day and age)..
But I would have thought that brownouts cause by changing load
conditions would be generally more problematic than frequency variations.
Andy Champ
>
> Well, a change in frequency would make a power transformer more or less
> efficient and would affect any real time clock which was deriving its
> timing from the mains frequency (unlikely I know in this day and age)..
>
> But I would have thought that brownouts cause by changing load
> conditions would be generally more problematic than frequency variations.
Switched mode PSU and quartz crystals in most modern gadgets...
Andy
geoff
<and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <3130303036363...@zetnet.co.uk>,
> Appin <ap...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
>> The message <kn6pk596lv72blmle...@4ax.com>
>> from Fred <fr...@no-email.here.invalid> contains these words:
>>
>>> I think both of them say "not for electronic devices". Why? I thought
>>> generator outputs were pretty clean?
>>
>> Far from clean and sometimes far from sine wave.
>>
>> Voltage and especially frequency regulation is often very poor --
>> according to my electricity supply contacts it's the poor frequency
>> regulation that kills the electronics in their experience.
>
>Strange, I can't imagine frequency having any bearing on electronics.
>
pikey to use a transformer - widely used in central heating electronics
--
geoff
Mark
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:22:40 +0000, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Poor manufacturing tolerances and poor quality materials. The cheaper
>>end of the Chinese manufacturing sector doesn't yet understand words
>>like "consistency" so different components will be used randomly and
>>many different sub-contractors parts used without any real quality
>>checks.
>
> Oh dear. So you really do get what you pay for in this case.
Yes
even a secondhand Briggs+Stratton would be a better option at least you can
get spares for them.?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320465232769
Andrew Gabriel
Impedance of the C will change, but that's just [inversely]
proprotional to the frequency change. A much bigger effect will
be the capacitor coupling voltage spikes directly through to the
low voltage side, so that a 20% mains voltage spike will generate
of the order of 48V spike at the (probably crude) voltage regulator
input. That's why I would guess dirty voltage would cause more
problems, but it's not something I've tested.
Fred
<watt....@googlemail.com> wrote:
>Bear in mind - if you want to be able to power your central heating
>electrics with it - that most boilers (except very old ones) have lots of
>electronics in them. I wouldn't risk using a very cheap generator with mine!
I have an oil-fired boiler, if that makes any difference?
Perhaps I am better sitting it the cold for a couple of hours during a
power cut rather than sitting in the cold for days because my boiler
has blown up!
I found old threads about cheap and cheerful 2-stroke generators and
they seemed to have been praised here before but now I am not so sure.
If you rule out running anything with electronics in them, what is
left to power?
This was only a knee jerk reaction because 5000 homes were reported to
be without power because of the snow. Touch wood we haven't had a
power cut for over a year, so I can't really justify buying an
inverter genny that will probably sit unused in the garage for twenty
months at a time.
Roger Mills
Fred <fr...@no-email.here.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:12:37 -0000, "Roger Mills"
> <watt....@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bear in mind - if you want to be able to power your central heating
>> electrics with it - that most boilers (except very old ones) have
>> lots of electronics in them. I wouldn't risk using a very cheap
>> generator with mine!
>
> I have an oil-fired boiler, if that makes any difference?
>
Dunno - I've no experience of those! What does it use electricity for? Does
it have any electronics on a PCB?
> Perhaps I am better sitting it the cold for a couple of hours during a
> power cut rather than sitting in the cold for days because my boiler
> has blown up!
>
Your choice! <g>
> I found old threads about cheap and cheerful 2-stroke generators and
> they seemed to have been praised here before but now I am not so sure.
> If you rule out running anything with electronics in them, what is
> left to power?
>
Traditional light bulbs, heaters with resistive elements, maybe the odd
electric motor as long as it isn't too fussy.
> This was only a knee jerk reaction because 5000 homes were reported to
> be without power because of the snow. Touch wood we haven't had a
> power cut for over a year, so I can't really justify buying an
> inverter genny that will probably sit unused in the garage for twenty
> months at a time.
Again, your choice! But bear in mind that most local authorities have got
very little salt for the roads because we haven't had a harsh winter for a
long time. Climate change *could* result in more power cuts, even though we
haven't had many of those in past years.
Maybe the thing to do is to wait until the summer, and then get an el cheapo
genny and try your boiler with it. If it *does* blow up, you'll have time to
fix it before next winter.
NT
> In message <hikidn$nj...@news.eternal-september.org>, Andrew Gabriel
> <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> writes
>
> >In article <31303030363631304B4CE51...@zetnet.co.uk>,
> > Appin <ap...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
> >> The message <kn6pk596lv72blmleepfai9pp43k1u9...@4ax.com>
> >> from Fred <f...@no-email.here.invalid> contains these words:
>
> >>> I think both of them say "not for electronic devices". Why? I thought
> >>> generator outputs were pretty clean?
>
> >> Far from clean and sometimes far from sine wave.
>
> >> Voltage and especially frequency regulation is often very poor --
> >> according to my electricity supply contacts it's the poor frequency
> >> regulation that kills the electronics in their experience.
>
> >Strange, I can't imagine frequency having any bearing on electronics.
>
> What about C-R dropper networks for providing e.g.24v where they are too
> pikey to use a transformer - widely used in central heating electronics
Bad waveforms are very effective at kiling those. Resistor dissipation
goes way up, and the magic smoke gets out
The biggest problem with electronics on gennies is voltage surges due
to the gen being an inductive source. Other issues are low freq
heating up transformers, and poor waveform greatly increasing
dissipation in filters and crude power supplies.
NT
Mike
>The message <kn6pk596lv72blmle...@4ax.com>
>from Fred <fr...@no-email.here.invalid> contains these words:
>
>> I think both of them say "not for electronic devices". Why? I thought
>> generator outputs were pretty clean?
>
>Far from clean and sometimes far from sine wave.
For what reason? The generators we built at school from coat hangers
and a bit of enamelled wire produced near perfect sine waves!
--
Fred
<watt....@googlemail.com> wrote:
>Dunno - I've no experience of those! What does it use electricity for? Does
>it have any electronics on a PCB?
I don't know either; I've never taken it apart to look! I suppose it
must have something that ignites the fuel?
[what can a 2-stroke be used for?]
>Traditional light bulbs, heaters with resistive elements
But a 2-stroke genny is only rated 650w IIRC, so I'm not sure there
are any heaters that you could use.
The 2.4kW 4-stroke model might have the capacity to power a kettle or
fan heater just. Is that similarly fussy about running electronic
devices?
>Again, your choice! But bear in mind that most local authorities have got
>very little salt for the roads because we haven't had a harsh winter for a
>long time. Climate change *could* result in more power cuts, even though we
>haven't had many of those in past years.
That's what made me think about this but is it just media
scaremongering? Only time will tell.
Dave Liquorice
> I have an oil-fired boiler, if that makes any difference?
Combi and/or condensing or just a big lump of cast iron and a burner?
The latter is just a motor and some switches it'll not object to
running off a generator. However you probably have a programmer
somewhere and that *might* object along the lines already stated.
Running the CH and keeping the fridges and freezers cold is the
reason I have generator but it's yet to be used in anger though I
have tested that the CH is happy at least for a hour or so.(*) The
power would have to be off for > 6hrs and be projected to be off for
several more hours for it to come out. We have backup cooking,
heating and lighting that is easier to break out. The house stays
moderately warm for quite a while even in winter, but thats what
jumpers and extra blankets are for...
(*) Big lump of cast iron and burner type with Horstmann programmers
and Danfoss RF stat.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Liquorice
> I don't know either; I've never taken it apart to look! I suppose it
> must have something that ignites the fuel?
I'd forgotten that bit there is some electronics to control the
sparke generator ignition and flame detection that shuts the boiler
down if it doesn't detect a flame when it should.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Fred
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
>Combi and/or condensing or just a big lump of cast iron
We did have a lump of iron but after more than thirty years service it
failed and was recently replaced by a shiny new condensing model;
non-combi, non-system.