Isolator between meter and CU
Piers Finlayson
switch between the meter and (new) CU, and prob fit new colour 25mm
meter tails as well.
Is there any advantage to getting the DNO to fit this for me rather
than doing it myself? I'll prob fit new 25mm (new colour) meter tails
at the same time.
A.Lee
DNO?
I rang up my supplier on Friday to arrange exactly this. They will not
supply it, but they will connect up a switch if I already have it in
place.
I'm buying a isolating switch to fit into a box, something like this:
<http://www.screwfix.com/prods/80187> Or maybe go with what my local
supplier recommends/has in stock.
With a suitable box to fit it in. I'll also need to buy 2 tails from the
new switch to the CU. The existing tails will be used from the meter to
switch.
There is no charge from them for this.
EON/MEB wanted £150 to supply and fit a switch - I rang them first as I
thought it was they who still owned the meter, but it is my supplying
company who own it now (Scottish and Southern in my case).
They were pretty helpful when I rang, it took a while to explain what I
wanted, but the operator got back to me and said they could arrange an
Engineer to come round and do it in 10 days time. They won't supply a
switch, neither will they fit it to the wall, all they'll do is isolate
the supply, and swap over the tails.
I debated whether to do it myself, but have heard of incoming fuses
breaking when they are taken out, also, this CU change will be part of
my assessment, so I wanted to do it properly. For the inconvenience of
waiting an extra week top do the job, it is no problem at all for me.
HTH
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
BruceB
news:4ccd2e95$0$2504$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
*************************
Advantages
You will not risk being accused of tampering with their eqpt, damaging their
eqpt, abstraction of electrictity.
You will not risk electrocution taking the fuse out or working live
Disadvantages
Costs time and money
If you do, then make absolutely sure there is no current going through the
suppliers fuse when you take it out and be aware the housings can shatter.
I am not going to advise you to do it.
But this is a diy group after all....
Regards
Bruce
BruceB
"A.Lee" wrote in message news:1jr7y32.18l9y8ouajxckN%alan@darkroom.+.com...
DNO?
********************
Distribution Network Operator.
sm_jamieson
I was going to get an isolator fitted and then I found out that
the new digital meters often have an isolator switch under a panel.
Since it is after the meter function its not going to look like you
are nicking leccy.
I just cut the security tag across it and used that when I fitted the
new CU.
If you have an old meter, you might find they will fit a new digital
one for
free, which may include an isolator.
Just a thought.
Simon.
Adrian C
I asked my DNO (E.on) worksman whether they would fit me one as a user
convienience freebie.
Was told that they have stopped doing it a few years ago as on cost
grounds. Particular bloke advised to just hoik out the company fuses if
need be to isolate, and they would be sealed at a later visit by them.
Presumably the threat of being locked up at her majesty's pleasure for
fiddling with the seals doesn't apply to consumer unit swaps, only
illicit hydroponic lighting supply lashups....
--
Adrian C
Adrian C
>
> Was told that they have stopped doing it a few years ago as on cost
> grounds. Particular bloke advised to just hoik out the company fuses if
> need be to isolate, and they would be sealed at a later visit by them.
> Presumably the threat of being locked up at her majesty's pleasure for
> fiddling with the seals doesn't apply to consumer unit swaps, only
> illicit hydroponic lighting supply lashups....
>
Ah, just read A.Lee's response. Looks like I'll be best approaching my
billing company instead of fiddling with the fuses. Makes sense, it's
past their meter. Plse disregard my last wibberings.
--
Adrian C
ARWadsworth
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYREC2S.html
and Eaton (AN2EBD) seem to be a commonly installed by the electric cos.
--
Adam
Piers Finlayson
Thanks for the replies thus far.
It would be very inconvenient to have to fit the new enclosure/switch
before pulling the main fuse. I need to pull the main fuse to isolate
the incredibly spaghetti like existing installation, remove some of it,
and make space for the new switch. Both the supply and meter seals are
already broken (and were when we moved in).
I've not heard of these main fuse housing shattering before. I'll be
be even more careful than I was going to be anyway!
If I get a moment I'll post a photo of the existing installation for
general entertainment.
Robin
> I rang up my supplier on Friday to arrange exactly this. They will not
> supply it, but they will connect up a switch if I already have it in
> place.
I'd be interested to know i.d.c. if they require a certificate before
re-connecting. And if so whether they will accept one from you if you
are not a member of one of the Part P "guilds".
--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com
A.Lee
> > I rang up my supplier on Friday to arrange exactly this. They will not
> > supply it, but they will connect up a switch if I already have it in
> > place.
>
> I'd be interested to know i.d.c. if they require a certificate before
> re-connecting. And if so whether they will accept one from you if you
> are not a member of one of the Part P "guilds".
AIUI, no, they do not require anything.
From what I have been told:
The reasoning behind this is that if there is a fault later on, they
will have 'passed' the circuits by accepting the certificate of the
previous tester.
(and this was shown to us at College a few weeks ago. A full, genuine,
periodic test sheet, which would have been no use to anyone. The person
doing it had either put in some erroneous figures, or he had not tested
the circuit correctly. The Lecturer explained why there was no way the
figures could be correct, as the ohm readings were wildly different.)
As this certificate could be wrong, or badly filled in, the Co. fitting
the isolator cannot accept it without confirming the results themselves.
And if they do that, they are then liable for any fault, so they will
not do any testing.
I know the last time the MEB came to my house to connect up my new CU
(14 years ago), the chap did a number of tests to ensure it was
reasonably safe before connecting up the tails. He couldnt have tested
much, as he was only here for an hour or so, but I think insulation and
earth continuity tests could show potential problems pretty quickly.
ARWadsworth
> Robin <s...@sig.sep> wrote:
>
>>> I rang up my supplier on Friday to arrange exactly this. They will
>>> not supply it, but they will connect up a switch if I already have
>>> it in place.
>>
>> I'd be interested to know i.d.c. if they require a certificate before
>> re-connecting. And if so whether they will accept one from you if
>> you are not a member of one of the Part P "guilds".
>
> AIUI, no, they do not require anything.
> From what I have been told:
> The reasoning behind this is that if there is a fault later on, they
> will have 'passed' the circuits by accepting the certificate of the
> previous tester.
> (and this was shown to us at College a few weeks ago. A full, genuine,
> periodic test sheet, which would have been no use to anyone. The
> person doing it had either put in some erroneous figures, or he had
> not tested the circuit correctly. The Lecturer explained why there
> was no way the figures could be correct, as the ohm readings were
> wildly different.)
I would love to have seen that certificate.
> As this certificate could be wrong, or badly filled in, the Co.
> fitting the isolator cannot accept it without confirming the results
> themselves. And if they do that, they are then liable for any fault,
> so they will not do any testing.
Adding an isolator is really no big deal. After all, meters are swapped on a
daily basis without any secondary checks.
> I know the last time the MEB came to my house to connect up my new CU
> (14 years ago), the chap did a number of tests to ensure it was
> reasonably safe before connecting up the tails. He couldnt have tested
> much, as he was only here for an hour or so, but I think insulation
> and earth continuity tests could show potential problems pretty
> quickly.
I do not think that "they" connect up CUs any more.
--
Adam
A.Lee
> A.Lee <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote:
> > (and this was shown to us at College a few weeks ago. A full, genuine,
> > periodic test sheet, which would have been no use to anyone. The
> > person doing it had either put in some erroneous figures, or he had
> > not tested the circuit correctly. The Lecturer explained why there
> > was no way the figures could be correct, as the ohm readings were
> > wildly different.)
>
> I would love to have seen that certificate.
Yes, even though we were not doing periodic testing, he went through the
test sheet to show things that were clearly wrong. One that springs to
mind were the earth continuity, these were typically .4 ohms, then went
up to 2 ohms for a similar circuit, then another at .01ohms.
None of the readings made sense, the Lecturer told us that the tester
either did not know what he was doing, was just doing it wrongly, or
there were numerous faults in the circuits, which he hadnt checked.
Either way, he should not have been passing the wiring in the house
(which he had done).
This test sheet came via a full time sparky on the course, who had been
asked to wire up a circuit to a jacuzzi at the house, and tap off an
existing circuit. The advice was to not take on the job, as he could be
there for a week sorting the problems.
Tim Watts
>> I rang up my supplier on Friday to arrange exactly this. They will not
>> supply it, but they will connect up a switch if I already have it in
>> place.
>
> I'd be interested to know i.d.c. if they require a certificate before
> re-connecting. And if so whether they will accept one from you if you
> are not a member of one of the Part P "guilds".
EDF do (at least in the SeeBoard area). I had all that "what's your
NICEIC number" bollocks" when I had my fuse pulled.
I said I didn't have one - but gave him the EIC I'd filled in, showed
him the Megger I'd done it with. What really helped was that I'd spent
ages making a neat job:
http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bungalow/electrical/20090423180550.jpg.html
Which was what persuaded him to let me keep the REC2S isolator in
"their" box, wot I'd just fitted.
My advise would be, if it's EDF, and the OP doesn't have the means to
test the circuit, pull the cutout fuse, unless it looks seriously old,
in which case don't. Antique gear (and there is still some in service)
may do one of several interesting things:
Shatter;
Come off the board due to rusted screws bending the old dried out
paper/oil insulated incomer cable which now shorts out and blows up in
your face.
Have lots of asbestos in the fuse carrier.
IMO the DNO's (meter operators in some areas) should be obliged in law
to fit an isolator. But as someone noted, some meters have an inbuilt one.
--
Tim Watts
ARWadsworth
> On 31/10/10 11:02, Robin wrote:
>>> I rang up my supplier on Friday to arrange exactly this. They will
>>> not supply it, but they will connect up a switch if I already have
>>> it in place.
>>
>> I'd be interested to know i.d.c. if they require a certificate before
>> re-connecting. And if so whether they will accept one from you if
>> you are not a member of one of the Part P "guilds".
>
> EDF do (at least in the SeeBoard area). I had all that "what's your
> NICEIC number" bollocks" when I had my fuse pulled.
Was that info requested just to add the isolator, or was the guy aware of
more works going on?
I have never been asked to provide any ID or certificates prior to a new
connection been made or cutout moved.
Cheers
--
Adam
Tim Watts
> Tim Watts<t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>> On 31/10/10 11:02, Robin wrote:
>>>> I rang up my supplier on Friday to arrange exactly this. They will
>>>> not supply it, but they will connect up a switch if I already have
>>>> it in place.
>>>
>>> I'd be interested to know i.d.c. if they require a certificate before
>>> re-connecting. And if so whether they will accept one from you if
>>> you are not a member of one of the Part P "guilds".
>>
>> EDF do (at least in the SeeBoard area). I had all that "what's your
>> NICEIC number" bollocks" when I had my fuse pulled.
>
> Was that info requested just to add the isolator, or was the guy aware of
> more works going on?
They were booked for a fuse pull, that's all. I might have said I was
installing a new CU - can't remember. They told me on the phone that
they'd be wanting a EIC/PIR. That's EDF for you...
> I have never been asked to provide any ID or certificates prior to a new
> connection been made or cutout moved.
>
> Cheers
>
--
Tim Watts
Piers Finlayson
Photos of the meter/cutout and existing installation:
http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/meterandmainfuse.jpg
http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/existinginstallation.jpg
Robin
> installing a new CU - can't remember. They told me on the phone that
> they'd be wanting a EIC/PIR. That's EDF for you...
>
reconnecting to just a new isolator. (Perhaps Adam's superiority was
self-evident?)
I don't know about UK Power Networks who EDF say have taken over
operation of their networks in London, South East and East. I'd be
interested in any experience of them as I may have a need for them to do
a meter upgrade.
A.Lee
> Photos of the meter/cutout and existing installation:
>
> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/meterandmainfuse.jpg
> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/existinginstallation.jpg
Christ, I've only ever seen things like that in old factory
units/workshops.
Is it a conversion from an industrial building?
Tim Watts
> Piers Finlayson<ne...@packom.net> wrote:
>
>> Photos of the meter/cutout and existing installation:
>>
>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/meterandmainfuse.jpg
>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/existinginstallation.jpg
>
> Christ, I've only ever seen things like that in old factory
> units/workshops.
> Is it a conversion from an industrial building?
>
> Alan.
House I grew up in had a not dissimilar MEM switch/fuse for each circuit
- though ours were metal. Reckon those might date from the 60's if not
earlier.
Can't see how old the cutout is - but I'd rate it as a "be careful" as
it does not appear to be new!
--
Tim Watts
Tim Watts
>
>> Photos of the meter/cutout and existing installation:
>>
>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/meterandmainfuse.jpg
>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/existinginstallation.jpg
>
> Christ, I've only ever seen things like that in old factory
> units/workshops.
> Is it a conversion from an industrial building?
>
> Alan.
BTW - are those rubber cables (black ones) going into the top middle unit?
--
Tim Watts
Piers Finlayson
They may be - I'm not familiar enough to know for sure, but I've put
them in "treat very carefully, and replace as soon as possible" camp.
There's similar all over the old half of the house.
I had a bakelite light switch break on me this w/e (in the on position,
with lovely crackling sounds when I moved the switch). Says it all
really.
Piers Finlayson
> Piers Finlayson <ne...@packom.net> wrote:
>
>> Photos of the meter/cutout and existing installation:
>>
>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/meterandmainfuse.jpg
>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/existinginstallation.jpg
>
> Christ, I've only ever seen things like that in old factory
> units/workshops.
> Is it a conversion from an industrial building?
Almost - it's an old farmhouse. In fact, only half of the house is that bad.
The extension (essentially a "new" house tacked on the side) is in
fairly reasonably nick, with the wiring done 10 years ago. That's what
the big Proteus CU is feeding.
The barns are worse, and fed from this mess.
Piers Finlayson
> On 31/10/10 17:49, A.Lee wrote:
>> Piers Finlayson<ne...@packom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Photos of the meter/cutout and existing installation:
>>>
>>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/meterandmainfuse.jpg
>>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/existinginstallation.jpg
>>
>> Christ, I've only ever seen things like that in old factory
>> units/workshops.
>> Is it a conversion from an industrial building?
>>
>> Alan.
>
> House I grew up in had a not dissimilar MEM switch/fuse for each
> circuit - though ours were metal. Reckon those might date from the 60's
> if not earlier.
Don't recognise the MEM acronym. The switch on the far left (mostly
out of shot) is metal. I'm not entirely sure what it feeds, which is
why it's off.
Andy Dingley
> Christ, I've only ever seen things like that in old factory
> units/workshops.
I must take some photos of mine! Some dates back to the 1930s original
installation. Don't know how old the 500mA RCD is though.
ARWadsworth
>> They were booked for a fuse pull, that's all. I might have said I was
>> installing a new CU - can't remember. They told me on the phone that
>> they'd be wanting a EIC/PIR. That's EDF for you...
>>
> I can confirm that EDF (in London) used to want a certificate if
> reconnecting to just a new isolator. (Perhaps Adam's superiority was
> self-evident?)
I wish:-) You do know that no-one reads a certificate. You could put 666 as
an NICEIC no and no-one would know any difference.
--
Adam
Tim Watts
> On 2010-10-31 18:42:31 +0000, Tim Watts said:
>
>> On 31/10/10 17:49, A.Lee wrote:
>>> Piers Finlayson<ne...@packom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Photos of the meter/cutout and existing installation:
>>>>
>>>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/meterandmainfuse.jpg
>>>>
>>>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/existinginstallation.jpg
>>>>
>>>
>>> Christ, I've only ever seen things like that in old factory
>>> units/workshops.
>>> Is it a conversion from an industrial building?
>>>
>>> Alan.
>>
>> House I grew up in had a not dissimilar MEM switch/fuse for each
>> circuit - though ours were metal. Reckon those might date from the
>> 60's if not earlier.
>
> Don't recognise the MEM acronym.
Now Eaton-MEM - a manufacturer of switchgear (upto far bigger stuff than
that - like 600A distribution boards. More inductrial which is why you
don't see much new MEM stuff in a domestic installation.
Cheers
Tim
--
Tim Watts
Dave Osborne
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/ProductsServices/MEM/ElectricalProductLInes/index.htm
Andy Wade
> On 2010-10-31 18:43:19 +0000, Tim Watts said:
>>
>> BTW - are those rubber cables (black ones) going into the top middle
>> unit?
>
They certainly are. The flat black-sheathed ones are TRS (tough rubber
sheath) twin, which used to be available with or without earth.
More worrying are all the small-size cotton/rubber unsheathed singles
going into the Henley block, protected only by the DNO's main fuse. Any
fault or overload on those could easily lead to a fire.
Looks as if the incoming supply may be overhead. What is the means of
earthing? Most of the installation appears to have no RCD or ELCB
protection, so if the earthing is TT it is likely to be completely
ineffective.
It's not just an isolator you need but a complete re-wire, by the look
of it, as a matter of some urgency.
--
Andy
m...@privacy.net
"ARWadsworth" <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Adding an isolator is really no big deal. After all, meters are swapped on
> a daily basis without any secondary checks.
When mine was swapped a couple of years ago a socket tester (the one with
neons) was plugged in to the nearest socket before and after the swap, just
to confirm polarity.
I wish now I'd asked him to fit an isolator I had available.
He didn't comment on the broken seal on the incoming fuse, from when prior to
2002 (perhaps!) I'd changed the CU, but he re-sealed it.
--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply
John Rumm
> On 31/10/2010 19:07, Piers Finlayson wrote:
>> On 2010-10-31 18:43:19 +0000, Tim Watts said:
>>>
>>> BTW - are those rubber cables (black ones) going into the top middle
>>> unit?
>>
>> They may be [...]
>
> They certainly are. The flat black-sheathed ones are TRS (tough rubber
> sheath) twin, which used to be available with or without earth.
Looks like there is some of the unsheathed twisted earth wire floating
about near those CUs as well - quite often romping around the building
and making an appearance at most of the sockets. (whether it actually
has any continuity between them, and real earth is another matter!)
> More worrying are all the small-size cotton/rubber unsheathed singles
> going into the Henley block, protected only by the DNO's main fuse. Any
> fault or overload on those could easily lead to a fire.
>
> Looks as if the incoming supply may be overhead. What is the means of
> earthing? Most of the installation appears to have no RCD or ELCB
> protection, so if the earthing is TT it is likely to be completely
> ineffective.
Can you do a photo a bit to the right so we can see where that main
earthing terminal connection goes off to?
> It's not just an isolator you need but a complete re-wire, by the look
> of it, as a matter of some urgency.
yup!
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Mike Tomlinson
>http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bungalow/electrical/20090423180550.jpg.html
Lovely job, but who wants a sodding great box on the wall just for the
incoming fuse, meter and isolator?
Come to that, it would have looked a lot neater if the tails had run
from the meter to the bottom of the isolator, and the feed to the CU
taken out of the top. Surely it wouldn't matter (electrically speaking)
which way round the cables were fitted to the switch?
The incoming cable also looks a bit weedy compared to the tails
connected to it. Is this 100A service?
--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Mike Tomlinson
r...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYREC2S.html
Seems quite reasonably priced too.
Mike Tomlinson
<ne...@packom.net> writes
>Photos of the meter/cutout and existing installation:
>
>http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/meterandmainfuse.jpg
>http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/existinginstallation.jpg
That main fuse is ancient. I certainly wouldn't touch it until it was
replaced by the supply company, and you may as well fit a new backboard
at the same time. Also looks like it could be a 40A supply which may
need upgrading.
The wiring of the ?shower (the 10mm^2 T&E cable on the left that runs to
the RCD, then up and along the top) into the Henley block is, uh,
creative. Where's the earth? Looks like it's been cut off.
You've also got old rubber-sleeved wiring in various places. It all
needs ripping out and redoing from scratch.
Mike Tomlinson
<alan@darkroom.+.com> writes
>Christ, I've only ever seen things like that in old factory
>units/workshops.
>Is it a conversion from an industrial building?
No, it's quite usual in domestic properties of a certain age. I've seen
worse.
Andy Burns
> In article<iajlla$sl9$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim Watts
>
>> http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bungalow/electrical/20090423180550.jpg.html
>
> it would have looked a lot neater if the tails had run
> from the meter to the bottom of the isolator, and the feed to the CU
> taken out of the top. Surely it wouldn't matter (electrically speaking)
> which way round the cables were fitted to the switch?
Not electrically, but IIRC that type of isolator can/does have an
anti-tamper seal that allows you to access the output terminals but not
the input terminals, so if it was sealed, it would have to be fitted
upside-down, or it would be pointless as changes to the customer side
couldn't be done without breaking seals anyway.
David Hansen
<mi...@jasper.org.uk> wrote this:-
>Come to that, it would have looked a lot neater if the tails had run
>from the meter to the bottom of the isolator, and the feed to the CU
>taken out of the top. Surely it wouldn't matter (electrically speaking)
>which way round the cables were fitted to the switch?
I imagine the device has a set of terminals marked in and another
set marked out. The in ones may well be shrouded, so that the output
ones can be worked on while the input is energised. Wiring it up
"backwards" makes things more difficult for those who come
afterwards.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_8#pt3-pb3-l1g54
Piers Finlayson
> On 01/11/2010 00:10, Andy Wade wrote:
>
>
>> More worrying are all the small-size cotton/rubber unsheathed singles
>> going into the Henley block, protected only by the DNO's main fuse. Any
>> fault or overload on those could easily lead to a fire.
>>
>> Looks as if the incoming supply may be overhead. What is the means of
>> earthing? Most of the installation appears to have no RCD or ELCB
>> protection, so if the earthing is TT it is likely to be completely
>> ineffective.
>
> Can you do a photo a bit to the right so we can see where that main
> earthing terminal connection goes off to?
It is an overhead supply that terminates on a transformer on a pole on
my land. The earth feeds all the way back to this transformer.
There's a more complete discussion here:
It's
>> not just an isolator you need but a complete re-wire, by the look
>> of it, as a matter of some urgency.
>
> yup!
Indeed, hence me originally stating I'm planning a big rewire! The
saving grace is that this part of the house is effectively unoccupied,
with it only currently being used for my office.
The initial plan is to strip of all that you see and replace with a new
17th ed CU, with two RCDs, and feed everything off that. It's possible
I'll leave the fuse box with the rubber sheathed cable in place for
now, to save disturbing that cable.
This is all temporary. Long term I'm planning a new CU in a different
location (and, as indicated in the linked thread, with a small CU and
SWA fed from the location you've seen to the new location).
ARWadsworth
> On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 04:53:28 +0000 someone who may be Mike Tomlinson
> <mi...@jasper.org.uk> wrote this:-
>
>> Come to that, it would have looked a lot neater if the tails had run
>> from the meter to the bottom of the isolator, and the feed to the CU
>> taken out of the top. Surely it wouldn't matter (electrically
>> speaking) which way round the cables were fitted to the switch?
>
> I imagine the device has a set of terminals marked in and another
> set marked out. The in ones may well be shrouded, so that the output
> ones can be worked on while the input is energised. Wiring it up
> "backwards" makes things more difficult for those who come
> afterwards.
It just depends on which way the front cover is fitted. There are no in/outs
on the switch. The large part of the cover can be sealed allowing the small
bit to be removed by the customer.
--
Adam
ARWadsworth
> In article <4ccda936$0$2519$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk>, Piers Finlayson
> <ne...@packom.net> writes
>
>> Photos of the meter/cutout and existing installation:
>>
>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/meterandmainfuse.jpg
>> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/existinginstallation.jpg
>
> That main fuse is ancient. I certainly wouldn't touch it until it was
> replaced by the supply company, and you may as well fit a new
> backboard at the same time. Also looks like it could be a 40A supply
> which may need upgrading.
It would not worry me. I would expect it to be stiff but it does not look
dangerous.
--
Adam
Piers Finlayson
>
> The wiring of the ?shower (the 10mm^2 T&E cable on the left that runs to
> the RCD, then up and along the top) into the Henley block is, uh,
> creative. Where's the earth? Looks like it's been cut off.
>
That's the supply to the new half of the house, and it's not an RCD -
just a small CU with fuse and breaker. You are right that there is no
earth between the henley block and this CU. However, there is an earth
wired from the earth block into that CU.
![george [dicegeorge]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjVy3egmWxdo6kgdNwXDn-6EE54MDMuR9kO5wF-DhVhewlzxjNY=s40-c)
george [dicegeorge]
thanks ARW,
I've just been downstairs and swapped the cover on the one I'm going to
fit sometime this week.
[g]
george [dicegeorge]
spare RCD in the new consumer unit?
ARWadsworth
Only if he wants the RCD to trip!
--
Adam
george [dicegeorge]
and put them in some of the ancient wiring,
they should trip earlier than 30ma standard RCDs
and thus give me a bit more peace of mind.
http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-elec/inlinercd/rcd-in-line/dp/PL10474
[g]
george [dicegeorge]
maybe with a 10ma RCD inline,
they may trip, they may not...
If one does then why?
[g]
ARWadsworth
> On 01/11/10 11:36, ARWadsworth wrote:
>>> can't you move all those nasty li8ttle balck and red wires to come
>>> off a spare RCD in the new consumer unit?
>>
>> Only if he wants the RCD to trip!
>>
> I'd do them one by one,
> maybe with a 10ma RCD inline,
> they may trip, they may not...
>
> If one does then why?
It is just a guess looking at the age of the wiring and my experience of
dealing with such cables.
As the OP is only wanting an isolator switch installing prior to doing a
full rewire then it does not really matter:-)
--
Adam
ARWadsworth
> In article <iajlla$sl9$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim Watts
>
>> http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bungalow/electrical/20090423180550.jpg.html
> The incoming cable also looks a bit weedy compared to the tails
> connected to it. Is this 100A service?
It could well be a 100A service. Probably a 25mm single cored armoured
supply. Here's one I took to bits earlier that had a 100A fuse.
http://s428.photobucket.com/albums/qq6/adamko2020/?action=view¤t=100_0229.jpg
Cheers
--
Adam
Piers Finlayson
I'm actually planning to fit the isolator and consolidate the existing
wiring at the same time, prior to the rewire. So will put all of the
existing wiring onto a new CU with 2 RCDs. Just in case I've also got
the extra busbar for the CU which will allow me to fit any circuits
with leakage without going through an RCD, and they'd then be earmarked
for the earliest replacement.
george [dicegeorge]
I dont tink you should connect it up until you find out why -
safer to put in an extension lead to where it was.
I'm halfway through a rewire (and a reroof etc etc),
I'v taken several old circuits out of the fusebox,
connected a normal 13amp fused plug to their input,
then plugged them into a socket coming from a 10ma inline RCD.
Perhaps illegal, but I feel its safer.
[g]
Mike Tomlinson
r...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>It could well be a 100A service. Probably a 25mm single cored armoured
>supply. Here's one I took to bits earlier that had a 100A fuse.
>
>http://s428.photobucket.com/albums/qq6/adamko2020/?action=view¤t=100_0229.
>jpg
Thanks. The N-E bonding strap is interesting.
ARWadsworth
There are a couple more shots on the wiki here (all of the same cut out).
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Earthing_Types#TN-C-S
I see what you mean about the incoming cable looking small. Newer installs
often use a 35mm armoured.
--
Adam
ARWadsworth
I recommend that you do not try to extend the black rubber cables into the
new CU (you asked earlier about that). It will be a lot easier to replace
the feed to the main switch of that fusebox from a MCB in the new CU than it
will be to work on the rubber cables. Old rubber cables have a tendancy to
drop to bits when you touch them.
--
Adam
Piers Finlayson
Thanks for the advice. I strongly suspect I'll take it.
Andy Burns
> Mike Tomlinson<mi...@jasper.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> ARWadsworth <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>>
>>> Here's one I took to bits earlier that had a 100A fuse.
>>>
>>> http://s428.photobucket.com/albums/qq6/adamko2020/?action=view¤t=100_0229.
>>> jpg
>>
>> Thanks. The N-E bonding strap is interesting.
>
> There are a couple more shots on the wiki here (all of the same cut out).
I take it the additional connections at the bottom of the cutout would
be used if the supply was "daisy-chained" to the next door house?
ARWadsworth
Yes. I also have seen the additional connections at the top used to feed an
Economy 7 type of meter.(two meters in one house)
BTW Any photos of odd or unusual cut outs or meters are more than welcome if
you or anyone else spot any.
--
Adam
Mike Tomlinson
or...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>BTW Any photos of odd or unusual cut outs or meters are more than welcome if
>you or anyone else spot any.
Take a look at the "What's wrong with this picture" forum at
www.electrical-contractor.net. It's mainly American, but some UK
sparkies do post occasionally.
To whet your appetite:
http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/194517
/Old_mutilated_electric_service.html#Post194517
js.b1
If your supply cable is TT you need a head-end RCD, and the earth to
that needs to be 4mm gr/ye 6491X in conduit or 16mm gr/ye 6491X
unprotected (IIRC).
2. Sort out your Main Equipotential Bonding
To Cold-Water & Gas within 600mm of entry to the building, or where
"reasonably practicable" (which in most cases it is!), use 10mm gr/ye
6491X in one continuous piece or to each service as necessary.
3. Add RCD protection to each CU as a box
The reason is you have a fire hazard downstream (never mind the pre-CU
cabling!).
4. Disconnect house, run temporary cables off that new CU RCBOs.
Personally I would fit 3-4x 20A RCBO, then 2.5mm Arctic flex (cheap
from TLC, Trading Depot, easily sold back out on Ebay) to an adaptable
box (cable gland off), then extension leads supplied by 1.5mm Arctic
flex to 2-way or 4-way Duraplug extension strips. That gives a robust
solution.
You can daisy chain extension leads, but if you do please cable tie
the plug in so it can not be knocked out.
You can run the lights off a 3A plug, just have a torch on each floor
or buy a cheap emergency light and stick it on the same circuit.
Modern supply cables are usually split-con, not armoured - ie, do not
go waving spades around because the flash & bang are big.
ARWadsworth
> Modern supply cables are usually split-con, not armoured - ie, do not
> go waving spades around because the flash & bang are big.
No they are not .
--
Adam
js.b1
> I take it the additional connections at the bottom of the cutout would
> be used if the supply was "daisy-chained" to the next door house?
An example of a loop-in supply (daisy-chain):
http://yfrog.com/mkloopinj
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/4577/loopin.jpg
The DNO added the clamps to the PILC (paper insulated lead covered)
themselves in about 1988 (they should never be touched because of the
fragile nature of the lead-paper-live cable).
Dave Osborne
Mike Tomlinson
<Dave...@SPAMymail.com> writes
>What do you make of this? :-
>
>http://i51.tinypic.com/5vak2b.jpg
CU's been replaced and whoever did it did a fairly neat job, having to
extend some of the cables with junction boxes.
The same standard of workmanship hasn't been applied to the supply. It
could, and should, have been done more neatly.
Looks to me that whoever did the supply side took out the RCBO (the grey
box with the green button from the original install) thus compromising
safety. Presumably this is a TT system. Looks to me like the meter
tails would have originally gone to the RCBO.
Not sure what to make of the neutral/earth connection with the
amateurish earth wire running to the CU. Looks like an attempt to
convert from TT to TNCS, maybe?
The earth wires running from the CU, presumably for equipotential
bonding, look undersized.
The chopped off cables on the right side should be checked out.
ARWadsworth
>>
>> BTW Any photos of odd or unusual cut outs or meters are more than
>> welcome if you or anyone else spot any.
>>
>
> What do you make of this? :-
>
> http://i51.tinypic.com/5vak2b.jpg
Interesting.
I certainly would be concerned about that one if I was working on it. It
looks like a DIY attempt to turn a TT supply into a PME supply.
What does the sticker say that the Neutral cable is covering?
--
Adam
Dave Osborne
> In article <8j99j2...@mid.individual.net>, Dave Osborne
> <Dave...@SPAMymail.com> writes
>
>> What do you make of this? :-
>>
>> http://i51.tinypic.com/5vak2b.jpg
>
> CU's been replaced and whoever did it did a fairly neat job, having to
> extend some of the cables with junction boxes.
Actually, I think they made the schoolboy error of pulling cables in 6
inches too short. Oops.
>
> The same standard of workmanship hasn't been applied to the supply. It
> could, and should, have been done more neatly.
>
> Looks to me that whoever did the supply side took out the RCBO (the grey
> box with the green button from the original install) thus compromising
> safety. Presumably this is a TT system. Looks to me like the meter
> tails would have originally gone to the RCBO.
>
> Not sure what to make of the neutral/earth connection with the
> amateurish earth wire running to the CU. Looks like an attempt to
> convert from TT to TNCS, maybe?
>
> The earth wires running from the CU, presumably for equipotential
> bonding, look undersized.
>
> The chopped off cables on the right side should be checked out.
>
Very good analysis, except that ITYM RCCB not RCBO.
It's the original supply point for a farmhouse on the edge of a village.
The supply used to come in (and loop out) overhead and was TT. The 6mm
earth wire (bottom left) went to a rod outside.
The supply to the village was too small, so SWEB installed new pylons
coming in from a different direction and built a rustic sub-station on
the village green.
The pylons stopped outside the village and SWEB got a wayleave to
install an u/g cable across the farm.
While the trench was in for the MV cable to the substation, they brought
a PME distribution cable back.
The farmhouse was huge and the owners had partitioned it off into the
farmhouse and a holiday let. When SWEB came in to sort the main supply,
they had a separate supply put in for the holiday let.
At some point, there was an earth fault on some wiring, so (rather than
finding and fixing the fault) the whole-house RCCB was looped-out using
the "floating" Henley blocks.
Main equipotential bonding (top earth wire) was undersized and went to
the water main. The owners didn't actually know where the water stop tap
was. The gas wasn't bonded.
So the cut-off cables at the right hand side of the pic are the old
incomers and loop-out for the TT supply and old cables going off to the
holiday let side of the property.
The thing that got me was the complete abortion the SWEB guy made of the
changeover to PME. At any rate he was too fscking lazy to bring the
PME cable into the building and put a new cutout in. The PME cable
interfaces to the ends of the overhead supply in a box outside.
Anyway, this was the "after" picture.
http://oi53.tinypic.com/16m24v4.jpg
Never did figure out where the cable on the bottom left went. Nobody
complained that the cooker didn't work afterwards...
Dave Osborne
Dunno. Can't have been important, though, because it didn't survive
replacement of the CU.
ARWadsworth
Thanks for sharing that. And it has my pet hate! - the warning stickers on
the front of the CU instead of behind the pull down flap.
--
Adam
js.b1
wrote:
That is great if so, it might depend on the DNO? I thought DNO use
concentric (neutral breaks last), split concentric (neutral around
live), or waveform concentric (3ph). Would be great if they spring for
the cost of armoured is that bit safer.
SP & Eon refused to use armoured for a shallow run even if I offered
to pay extra - but they could have installed it and did not want
anyone to know cable specifics? They had a *lot* of problems with
"grass growers" tapping in before the meter in that area (Frodsham,
once quite a nice place).
I recently found some 1988 "scribbles" from SP. Prior to 1970 there
were no depth regulations applicable to supply cables, so PILC could
be just below the surface and is routinely damaged by people changing
paving. In some cases it is the downstream supply that gets damaged
(loses neutral some time later) so the person doing the paving is
unaware of any consequences.
Andy Dingley
> Thanks for sharing that. And it has my pet hate! - the warning stickers on
> the front of the CU instead of behind the pull down flap.
Could be worse, there are still those who think they have to go over
at least one screw head.
Where do you put them with a clear flap?
js.b1
making safe the end of a cable. However since the cables have been cut
back so severely it makes their fitment more complicated :-)
ARWadsworth
I also see a lot of installations where electricains have fitted the clamps.
--
Adam
ARWadsworth
:-)
--
Adam
ARWadsworth
It seems to be 35mm single cored armoured on all the new intalls I have
seen. Now as a child I remember the next door neighbour putting his spade
though his supply cable. It took the stupid bastard 5 or 6 attempts to get
through it!
--
Adam
js.b1
wrote:
> It seems to be 35mm single cored armoured on all the new intalls I have
> seen.
That is great...
... although if someone nicks the outer sheath the zinc eventually
gives up letting the steel armour rot... so the house eventually loses
its neutral/earth... lead does not rot... how does aluminium armour
rust in comparison?
> Now as a child I remember the next door neighbour putting his spade
> though his supply cable. It took the stupid bastard 5 or 6 attempts to get
> through it!
Now a Gas Safe registered installer... :-)
Piers Finlayson
> Planning a big rewire, and seems like a good time to fit an isolator
> switch between the meter and (new) CU, and prob fit new colour 25mm
> meter tails as well.
>
> Is there any advantage to getting the DNO to fit this for me rather
> than doing it myself? I'll prob fit new 25mm (new colour) meter tails
> at the same time.
Isolator fitted. Main fuse pulled with no problems - it wasn't even
terribly stiff.
I thought I'd share a photo of some of the existing cabling. To be
fair, this one wasn't even connected because when we moved in I
couldn't figure out what it did - so disconnected it to be on the safe
side. However, it provides a good example of what condition old cables
may actually be in.
http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/IMG_2099.jpg
Mike Tomlinson
<Dave...@SPAMymail.com> writes
>Very good analysis, except that ITYM RCCB not RCBO.
Ta.
>At some point, there was an earth fault on some wiring, so (rather than
>finding and fixing the fault) the whole-house RCCB was looped-out using
>the "floating" Henley blocks.
Lovely.
>The thing that got me was the complete abortion the SWEB guy made of the
> changeover to PME. At any rate he was too fscking lazy to bring the
>PME cable into the building and put a new cutout in. The PME cable
>interfaces to the ends of the overhead supply in a box outside.
eep. How long is the run of ancient crap from the new PME cable to the
meter? A few feet?
I suppose this was done while the previous owners had the property, so
there'd be no chance of you jumping up and down and insisting SWEB did
the job properly?
>Anyway, this was the "after" picture.
>
>http://oi53.tinypic.com/16m24v4.jpg
Looking better, though still a shame about the tatty old incomer.
>Never did figure out where the cable on the bottom left went. Nobody
>complained that the cooker didn't work afterwards...
Decommissioned immersion? Looked inside the airing cupboard?
ARWadsworth
> On 2010-10-31 08:53:41 +0000, Piers Finlayson said:
>
>> Planning a big rewire, and seems like a good time to fit an isolator
>> switch between the meter and (new) CU, and prob fit new colour 25mm
>> meter tails as well.
>>
>> Is there any advantage to getting the DNO to fit this for me rather
>> than doing it myself? I'll prob fit new 25mm (new colour) meter
>> tails at the same time.
>
> Isolator fitted. Main fuse pulled with no problems - it wasn't even
> terribly stiff.
Nice one
> I thought I'd share a photo of some of the existing cabling. To be
> fair, this one wasn't even connected because when we moved in I
> couldn't figure out what it did - so disconnected it to be on the safe
> side. However, it provides a good example of what condition old
> cables may actually be in.
>
> http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx13/captainpp/DIY/IMG_2099.jpg
That's why I never disturb the stuff, Nice burn marks where a fuse has
popped BTW.
--
Adam
Dave Osborne
> In article <8jaarb...@mid.individual.net>, Dave Osborne
> <Dave...@SPAMymail.com> writes
>
>> The thing that got me was the complete abortion the SWEB guy made of the
>> changeover to PME. At any rate he was too fscking lazy to bring the
>> PME cable into the building and put a new cutout in. The PME cable
>> interfaces to the ends of the overhead supply in a box outside.
>
> eep. How long is the run of ancient crap from the new PME cable to the
> meter? A few feet?
>
Dunno.
> I suppose this was done while the previous owners had the property, so
> there'd be no chance of you jumping up and down and insisting SWEB did
> the job properly?
No, just that the owner didn't know any better or didn't care.
>
>> Anyway, this was the "after" picture.
>>
>> http://oi53.tinypic.com/16m24v4.jpg
>
> Looking better, though still a shame about the tatty old incomer.
>
>> Never did figure out where the cable on the bottom left went. Nobody
>> complained that the cooker didn't work afterwards...
>
> Decommissioned immersion? Looked inside the airing cupboard?
>
Dunno. I didn't actually work on the house. I got the story from a mate.
The property belongs to his parents.
Dave Osborne
Nice burn marks on that asbestos, you mean? ;-)