Need a new stopcock. Two problems.

[Frederick Williams]

The mains water enters my property thorough an iron pipe. The stopcock
is leaking slowly, maybe so slowly that I could leave it and do nothing,
but I'd rather get it fixed. A plumber tells me that he cannot replace
the stopcock _because_ the pipe is iron. Really? Why?

There is a second problem. The pipe is so near an external wall, that
installing a new stopcock will be very difficult. Maybe a few bricks
would need to be removed and replaced when the job is done. Is this
common in old (1893) properties?

--
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by
this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.
Jonathan Swift: Thoughts on Various Subjects, Moral and Diverting

[Tim]

Frederick Williams <freddyw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> The mains water enters my property thorough an iron pipe. The stopcock
> is leaking slowly, maybe so slowly that I could leave it and do nothing,
> but I'd rather get it fixed. A plumber tells me that he cannot replace
> the stopcock _because_ the pipe is iron. Really? Why?
>
> There is a second problem. The pipe is so near an external wall, that
> installing a new stopcock will be very difficult. Maybe a few bricks
> would need to be removed and replaced when the job is done. Is this
> common in old (1893) properties?

Given the buggeration factor involved in replacement, I'd have a good go at
fixing the existing leak. Do you have a stopcock in the street or elsewhere
outside the property?

Tim

[Bob Eager]

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:51:59 +0000, Frederick Williams wrote:

> The mains water enters my property thorough an iron pipe. The stopcock
> is leaking slowly, maybe so slowly that I could leave it and do nothing,
> but I'd rather get it fixed. A plumber tells me that he cannot replace
> the stopcock _because_ the pipe is iron. Really? Why?
>
> There is a second problem. The pipe is so near an external wall, that
> installing a new stopcock will be very difficult. Maybe a few bricks
> would need to be removed and replaced when the job is done. Is this
> common in old (1893) properties?

I had pretty well exactly the same problem, a few years ago (1903
property). My water company (Mid-Kent water as was) had a fixed price
deal for a new lever operated full-flow stopcock. 79 quid at the time.

The guy who came was a real craftsman too. Had to re-route some copper
pipes nearby, then had a hell of a job getting the old one off the iron
pipe. And it was *right* in a corner between an external and internal
wall. Took him three and a half hours...

Might be worth talking to your water company (or looking for some other
fixed price deal).



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

[Frederick Williams]

Tim wrote:
>
> Frederick Williams <freddyw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > The mains water enters my property thorough an iron pipe. The stopcock
> > is leaking slowly, maybe so slowly that I could leave it and do nothing,
> > but I'd rather get it fixed. A plumber tells me that he cannot replace
> > the stopcock _because_ the pipe is iron. Really? Why?
> >
> > There is a second problem. The pipe is so near an external wall, that
> > installing a new stopcock will be very difficult. Maybe a few bricks
> > would need to be removed and replaced when the job is done. Is this
> > common in old (1893) properties?
>
> Given the buggeration factor involved in replacement, I'd have a good go at
> fixing the existing leak.

The plumber has reduced it considerably.

> Do you have a stopcock in the street or elsewhere
> outside the property?

Only one that serves a number of houses. I will consider getting one
fitted just outside my property, if the one under the sink can't be
replaced or fixed.

[Frederick Williams]

I'll do that.

[stuart noble]

According to Thames Water (a couple of years back) the consumer is
entitled to a stopcock and they've installed 3 that I know of for free.

[Mr Pounder]

"Frederick Williams" <freddyw...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:4EC9140F...@btinternet.com...

> The mains water enters my property thorough an iron pipe. The stopcock
> is leaking slowly, maybe so slowly that I could leave it and do nothing,
> but I'd rather get it fixed. A plumber tells me that he cannot replace
> the stopcock _because_ the pipe is iron. Really? Why?
>
> There is a second problem. The pipe is so near an external wall, that
> installing a new stopcock will be very difficult. Maybe a few bricks
> would need to be removed and replaced when the job is done. Is this
> common in old (1893) properties?
>

>Have you tried to tighten up the gland on the stopcock?
Little nut. Be gentle.

[Roger Mills]

On 20/11/2011 14:51, Frederick Williams wrote:
> The mains water enters my property thorough an iron pipe. The stopcock
> is leaking slowly, maybe so slowly that I could leave it and do nothing,
> but I'd rather get it fixed. A plumber tells me that he cannot replace
> the stopcock _because_ the pipe is iron. Really? Why?
>
> There is a second problem. The pipe is so near an external wall, that
> installing a new stopcock will be very difficult. Maybe a few bricks
> would need to be removed and replaced when the job is done. Is this
> common in old (1893) properties?
>

The fact that it's an iron pipe shouldn't be a problem as long as the
pipe is reasonably sound. Given the age and proximity to the wall,
you're unlikely to be able to unscrew the old stopcock from the pipe.
But what you *can* do is cut through the pipe just below the stopcock
(having turned the water off outside first!) and then use copper pipe
joined to the iron pipe with something like
http://www.philmac.co.uk/products/universal-transition-couplings/ You
made need to chip a bit of brickwork away to provide clearance for the
new fitting - but you shouldn't have to actually remove and replace any
bricks. Is the pipework above the stopcock also iron? If so, you can use
two of these couplings - with a short section of copper/new
stopcock/copper in between.


My father had a similar problem in a 1930's house about 25 years ago. In
his case, the iron pipe had corroded just below the stopcock, and was
weeping. He got a local plumber in who cut off the corroded bit and
fitted a universal coupling, similar to the one cited above, to the
remaining sound pipe and it was fine.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

[cynic]

On Nov 20, 2:51 pm, Frederick Williams <freddywilli...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

There is a slight risk the old iron pipe may be thinned by corrosion
but unless this is severe there is every chance the tap can be removed
by turning off the water in the street, cutting the iron pipe below
the tap after removing a few bricks for clearance then with a ratchet
threading tool cut a new thread on the end and screw a new stop tap
onto the end. Any half decent professional plumber should have the
necessary tools (or can hire from a tool hire establishment). If your
guy says he can't cut threads on an iron pipe he doesn't fit the
description half decent.

[YAPH]

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:46:12 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

> The fact that it's an iron pipe shouldn't be a problem as long as the
> pipe is reasonably sound. Given the age and proximity to the wall,
> you're unlikely to be able to unscrew the old stopcock from the pipe.
> But what you *can* do is cut through the pipe just below the stopcock
> (having turned the water off outside first!) and then use copper pipe
> joined to the iron pipe with something like
> http://www.philmac.co.uk/products/universal-transition-couplings/

What - onto (inevitably) pitted steel pipe?

Sooner you than me. But then if it goes tits up you've only got yourself
to sue ;-)

Preferred solution would be to leave the existing stopcock and pipe well
alone (steel pipe can be corroded enough to fail when you try to lever or
twist it!) and put a new stopcock in line with the existing one. If you
really can't do that and think you can trust the steel pipe, if you can
unscrew the stopcock's threaded coupling to the pipe just a fraction of a
turn but the handle gets in the way of rotating it 360 degrees, if you
unscrew the works can you rotate it completely? If you can get it off
then put a BSP to compression fitting onto the pipe and on with a new
stop valve.

--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

If we'd known how much fun grandchildren are
we'd have had them first

[YAPH]

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 12:58:50 -0800, cynic wrote:

> Any half decent professional plumber should have the necessary tools (or
> can hire from a tool hire establishment). If your guy says he can't cut
> threads on an iron pipe he doesn't fit the description half decent.

Any half decent plumber will also have to take out a chunk of brickwork
from the wall to get the die onto the pipe end since it's hard up against
the wall, according to the OP.

--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Extreme moderate

[John Rumm]

On 21/11/2011 00:10, YAPH wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:46:12 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> The fact that it's an iron pipe shouldn't be a problem as long as the
>> pipe is reasonably sound. Given the age and proximity to the wall,
>> you're unlikely to be able to unscrew the old stopcock from the pipe.
>> But what you *can* do is cut through the pipe just below the stopcock
>> (having turned the water off outside first!) and then use copper pipe
>> joined to the iron pipe with something like
>> http://www.philmac.co.uk/products/universal-transition-couplings/
>
> What - onto (inevitably) pitted steel pipe?

Cup brush, angle grinder etc, check you can get to smoothish metal.
Having said that, those transition fittings seem to work onto lead that
is less than smooth, so may work on slightly less than perfect iron.

> Sooner you than me. But then if it goes tits up you've only got yourself
> to sue ;-)
>
> Preferred solution would be to leave the existing stopcock and pipe well
> alone (steel pipe can be corroded enough to fail when you try to lever or
> twist it!) and put a new stopcock in line with the existing one. If you

That's ok if its leaking in the sense of letting by, but not much use
for one weeping from around the tap stem etc.

> really can't do that and think you can trust the steel pipe, if you can
> unscrew the stopcock's threaded coupling to the pipe just a fraction of a
> turn but the handle gets in the way of rotating it 360 degrees, if you
> unscrew the works can you rotate it completely? If you can get it off
> then put a BSP to compression fitting onto the pipe and on with a new
> stop valve.
>


--

Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[js.b1]

Where does the pipe enter the house?

It might be better to joint iron to Hep2o outside, then bring that in.
You get a new pipe which is very difficult to freeze and not subject
to future failure and leaks.

If necessary you can bring water pipe in above floor using a special
box outside which is stuffed with closed-cell extruded insulation, BES
sell them, about £80 and likewise there is low depth insulation
available too for about £19 per 1m length.

Removing a brick or two is trivial if you have a mains drill and a
20-38mm sintered diamond core drill. You just stitch drill through the
brick, push in a wide slotted screwdriver and twist the brick into
pieces. Very little vibration re vulnerable pipework compared to an
SDS (depends on the skill of the user and hardness of the bricks). Of
course you need a new brick to go back, frankly I would use celotex or
extruded polystyrene behind the pipe where possible - rising CW main
against cold solid walls are not a great idea. Never expanded
polystyrene because it is porous to water (increasing risk of
freezing).

Remember any pipe will freeze where the average temperature is below
zero even if insulated and no water is moving, simply because
insulation merely slows the rate of heat loss - it does not prevent it
completely. The proper pipe insulation is the closed cell foamed
rubber stuff, but should be protected against UV.

[Roger Mills]

On 21/11/2011 00:10, YAPH wrote:

>

> Preferred solution would be to leave the existing stopcock and pipe well
> alone (steel pipe can be corroded enough to fail when you try to lever or
> twist it!) and put a new stopcock in line with the existing one.

The OP didn't say in which way it was leaking - whether it wasn't
shutting off completely (in which case a new washer should do the trick)
or whether it was leaking to the outside world - in which case your
'solution' wouldn't improve matters!

[Frederick Williams]

YAPH wrote:
>
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 12:58:50 -0800, cynic wrote:
>
> > Any half decent professional plumber should have the necessary tools (or
> > can hire from a tool hire establishment). If your guy says he can't cut
> > threads on an iron pipe he doesn't fit the description half decent.
>
> Any half decent plumber will also have to take out a chunk of brickwork
> from the wall to get the die onto the pipe end since it's hard up against
> the wall, according to the OP.

I shall see my plumber shortly, and ask him just what the problem is.

[Frederick Williams]

Roger Mills wrote:
>
> On 21/11/2011 00:10, YAPH wrote:
>
> >
> > Preferred solution would be to leave the existing stopcock and pipe well
> > alone (steel pipe can be corroded enough to fail when you try to lever or
> > twist it!) and put a new stopcock in line with the existing one.
>
> The OP didn't say in which way it was leaking - whether it wasn't
> shutting off completely (in which case a new washer should do the trick)
> or whether it was leaking to the outside world - in which case your
> 'solution' wouldn't improve matters!

To the outside world.

[Frederick Williams]

YAPH wrote:
>
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:46:12 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:
>
> > The fact that it's an iron pipe shouldn't be a problem as long as the
> > pipe is reasonably sound. Given the age and proximity to the wall,
> > you're unlikely to be able to unscrew the old stopcock from the pipe.
> > But what you *can* do is cut through the pipe just below the stopcock
> > (having turned the water off outside first!) and then use copper pipe
> > joined to the iron pipe with something like
> > http://www.philmac.co.uk/products/universal-transition-couplings/
>
> What - onto (inevitably) pitted steel pipe?
>
> Sooner you than me. But then if it goes tits up you've only got yourself
> to sue ;-)
>
> Preferred solution would be to leave the existing stopcock and pipe well
> alone (steel pipe can be corroded enough to fail when you try to lever or
> twist it!) and put a new stopcock in line with the existing one.

How does one join the new stopcock upstream of the old one?

> If you
> really can't do that and think you can trust the steel pipe,

It's iron, not steel, and possibly(?) brittle.

> if you can
> unscrew the stopcock's threaded coupling to the pipe just a fraction of a
> turn but the handle gets in the way of rotating it 360 degrees, if you
> unscrew the works can you rotate it completely? If you can get it off
> then put a BSP to compression fitting onto the pipe and on with a new
> stop valve.

--

[Frederick Williams]

"js.b1" wrote:
>
> Where does the pipe enter the house?
>
> It might be better to joint iron to Hep2o outside, then bring that in.
> You get a new pipe which is very difficult to freeze and not subject
> to future failure and leaks.
>
> If necessary you can bring water pipe in above floor

I think that would be a mess.

> using a special
> box outside which is stuffed with closed-cell extruded insulation, BES

> sell them, about Ł80 and likewise there is low depth insulation
> available too for about Ł19 per 1m length.

>
> Removing a brick or two is trivial if you have a mains drill and a
> 20-38mm sintered diamond core drill. You just stitch drill through the
> brick, push in a wide slotted screwdriver and twist the brick into
> pieces. Very little vibration re vulnerable pipework compared to an
> SDS (depends on the skill of the user and hardness of the bricks). Of
> course you need a new brick to go back, frankly I would use celotex or
> extruded polystyrene behind the pipe where possible - rising CW main
> against cold solid walls are not a great idea. Never expanded
> polystyrene because it is porous to water (increasing risk of
> freezing).
>
> Remember any pipe will freeze where the average temperature is below
> zero even if insulated and no water is moving, simply because
> insulation merely slows the rate of heat loss - it does not prevent it
> completely. The proper pipe insulation is the closed cell foamed
> rubber stuff, but should be protected against UV.

[Frederick Williams]

stuart noble wrote:

> According to Thames Water (a couple of years back) the consumer is
> entitled to a stopcock and they've installed 3 that I know of for free.

I'm with Veolia and I can find no evidence on their website that the
same applies.

[charles]

In article <4ECA573...@btinternet.com>,

Frederick Williams <freddyw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> stuart noble wrote:

> > According to Thames Water (a couple of years back) the consumer is
> > entitled to a stopcock and they've installed 3 that I know of for free.

> I'm with Veolia and I can find no evidence on their website that the
> same applies.

Veolia provided me with a stopcock at the boundary of my property, beside
the water meter. After that, it's all my problem.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

[cynic]

Did you read the line which said "after removing a few bricks for
clearance" John?

[stuart noble]

On 21/11/2011 13:50, Frederick Williams wrote:
> stuart noble wrote:
>
>> According to Thames Water (a couple of years back) the consumer is
>> entitled to a stopcock and they've installed 3 that I know of for free.
>
> I'm with Veolia and I can find no evidence on their website that the
> same applies.
>

I don't think it's something they publicise but, if you (or even your
plumber) can't disconnect to fit a new stopcock, what are you supposed
to do? They'll do it eventually

[stuart noble]

On 21/11/2011 14:02, charles wrote:
> In article<4ECA573...@btinternet.com>,
> Frederick Williams<freddyw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> stuart noble wrote:
>
>>> According to Thames Water (a couple of years back) the consumer is
>>> entitled to a stopcock and they've installed 3 that I know of for free.
>
>> I'm with Veolia and I can find no evidence on their website that the
>> same applies.
>
> Veolia provided me with a stopcock at the boundary of my property, beside
> the water meter. After that, it's all my problem.
>

A water meter is one way of getting a new stopcock :-)

[docholliday]

On Nov 21, 1:47 pm, Frederick Williams <freddywilli...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

I think you'll find that what was commonly referred to as iron pipe
actually meant mild steel pipe with malleable iron fittings.
The problem with this system in your case is that when you're
presented with a stopcock with pipe screwed in from both sides you
can't replace it without diturbing some of the rest of the pipework,
since unscrewing the stopcock from one pipe would result in trying to
tighten it up on the other - you'd have to find a point in the system
where a coupling is inserted that does allow you to unscrew it without
moving the pipes and then proceed from there - could be a major job
depending on the pipework. The other problem you might have is that if
the stopcock is too close to the wall to get a pipe wrench on it,
trying to unscrew the stopcock may undo one of the joints in the
section outside the house. This possible disturbance of other joints
is also one of the reasons plumbers don't like threading pipe which is
already installed, even if they have pipe threading equipment - they
prefer to put a new length into their pipe threading machine and do
both ends.
An approach I've seen used is to select a piece of the pipe which has
joints that are easily accessible and cut it in half, followed by
unscrewing the two ends, then attaching copper to iron adaptors and
replacing the pipe in copper. This should be no problem for gas, which
is where I've seen it used, but I'm not sure how good an idea it is
for water, where the dissimilar metals could result in accelerated
corrosion of the steel pipe. A similar treatment using plastic pipe
should get round that peoblem, I'd have thought.

[Frederick Williams]

There is a stopcock that controls the water to a number of houses (I
don't know how many) but I want one (close to my gate, say) that
controls the water to just mine.

[stuart noble]

On 21/11/2011 18:18, Frederick Williams wrote:
> stuart noble wrote:
>>
>> On 21/11/2011 13:50, Frederick Williams wrote:
>>> stuart noble wrote:
>>>
>>>> According to Thames Water (a couple of years back) the consumer is
>>>> entitled to a stopcock and they've installed 3 that I know of for free.
>>>
>>> I'm with Veolia and I can find no evidence on their website that the
>>> same applies.
>>>
>> I don't think it's something they publicise but, if you (or even your
>> plumber) can't disconnect to fit a new stopcock, what are you supposed
>> to do? They'll do it eventually
>
> There is a stopcock that controls the water to a number of houses (I
> don't know how many) but I want one (close to my gate, say) that
> controls the water to just mine.
>

As you can already disconnect the supply, I guess they'll say that's
down to you

[YAPH]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 07:10:10 -0800, cynic wrote:

> Did you read the line which said "after removing a few bricks for
> clearance" John?

Oops, jumped in feet first there :-(
Sorry.

Even so if I had to remove bricks I'd unscrew the tap, not cut and thread
the pipe.

--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Who's *really* behind all these conspiracy theories?