Solder and house wiring
Sydney Ratztrangler
Over the week-end I worked on moving and adding a double socket to the
ring main.
wishing to not disturb two much fabric of the house I joined one of the
2.5mm loops with a new piece via solder joints (Overlap two stipped ends
by approx 7mm - apply solding iron and solder etc) and double layer of
heatshrink on both the live and neutral. I also soldered the earth
wires togther.
Question - is this bad practice against regs etc.
many thanks for all comments
regards
Sydney
Andrew Gabriel
The regs do permit soldering. However I suspect you have fallen foul
of the requirement to use the correct materials.
Having said that, I haven't found any connection boxes explicitly
intended for soldering. When I solder mains wiring (which is required
when the connection will be inaccessible*), I use a standard circular
bakolite-type connection box, and having done up the screw terminals,
I then solder the terminal and wires together. You need a high powered
soldering iron so you can do it quickly; a low powered iron will take
ages to heat up the terminal, by which time the PVC insulation will
have melted a long way back from the terminal.
*Crimping is another permitted alternative. I don't know any suitable
connection boxes for this either.
--
Andrew Gabriel
Consultant Software Engineer
Dave Plowman
Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Having said that, I haven't found any connection boxes explicitly
> intended for soldering. When I solder mains wiring (which is required
> when the connection will be inaccessible*)
In all seriousness, if the connection is inaccessible, and therefore needs
soldering, how do you *get at it* to solder it?
--
* Certain frogs can be frozen solid, then thawed, and survive *
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Nightjar
Dave Plowman <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:498cd95e2e...@argonet.co.uk...
> In article <87nfbs$v...@cucumber.demon.co.uk>,
> Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> In all seriousness, if the connection is inaccessible, and therefore
needs
> soldering, how do you *get at it* to solder it?
I think the use of future with intention is the clue. At the time of
soldering they are accessible. At some point later they will be
inaccessible.
Colin Bignell
Clive E.
news:389EBA...@anon.com...
> wishing to not disturb two much fabric of the house I joined one of the
> 2.5mm loops with a new piece via solder joints (Overlap two stipped ends
> by approx 7mm - apply solding iron and solder etc) and double layer of
> heatshrink on both the live and neutral. I also soldered the earth
> wires togther.
I think crimping and soldering is allowed but screw terminals are not.
I've done something similar in the past with inaccessible junction boxes
under the floor - where a trap would be unsightly. I've overlapped the two
stripped ends, wound some thin tinned copper wire around them (a strand of
0.2mm^2) and then soldered it together. When all wires have been done I've
put them into the terminals of a 30A junction box - if you turn the cores
so that one is above the other they will fit unless you've put too much
solder on. Then I've nipped up the screw terminals fairly securely but not
tight enough to damage the joints. The junction box is needed to give some
mechanical protection which is missing from your method. There are
resin-filled crimp joints specially for this purpose but they are hideously
expensive IIRC.
--
Clive E. (Cli...@bigfoot.com) My views, not my employer's.
UK.D-I-Y FAQs: http://pages.eidosnet.co.uk/~ukdiy/index.html
Dave Plowman
Nightjar <nigh...@pavilion.co.uk> wrote:
> I think the use of future with intention is the clue. At the time of
> soldering they are accessible. At some point later they will be
> inaccessible.
Would this then include any connections made beneath floor boards? If the
room is close carpeted and furnished, might this make them considered
inaccessible?
--
* Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity *
Eric M
Eric
Sydney Ratztrangler <an...@anon.com> wrote in message news:389EBA...@anon.com...
> Dear Panel,
>
> Over the week-end I worked on moving and adding a double socket to the
> ring main.
>
> wishing to not disturb two much fabric of the house I joined one of the
> 2.5mm loops with a new piece via solder joints (Overlap two stipped ends
> by approx 7mm - apply solding iron and solder etc) and double layer of
> heatshrink on both the live and neutral. I also soldered the earth
> wires togther.
>
> Question - is this bad practice against regs etc.
>
Nightjar
>
> Would this then include any connections made beneath floor boards? If
the
> room is close carpeted and furnished, might this make them considered
> inaccessible?
You had best as Andrew that. I have not come across any instances where
I would have considered soldering necessary. Then again, I have always
designed the installation to avoid situations like connections under
floorboards.
Colin
Terry Sanford
Someone, possibly Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW
12, wrote;
> --
> * Certain frogs can be frozen solid, then thawed, and survive *
>
And I've heard some researchers took the gene/genes which enable this frog to
survive freezing and spliced them into wheat to be grown in cold prairie
regions.
The idea being that the wheat can be planted in the fall/autumn, germinate, be
frozen all winter in temperatures to below zero deg Fahrenheit, survive and
grow to harvesting maturity the next year!
Somwhat scary? Froggy bread!
'Food' for thought maybe.
Rick Hughes
due to solder creep, especially if used on copper that is going into a
screw fix terminal.
There was a long thread recently on another list and twisting of the
wires and then placed in a crew down suitably rated connection block if
far more preferable - there were a lot of quotes of IEE tests occurred
out etc.
Rick
Eric M
I think soldering is OK if done properly. Strictly speaking in any electrical connection other than in light current electronic connections the solder should only be to hold it together and make more permanant. If the wires are simply laid together and soldered the solder is carrying current and has the potential to warm up... The joint should really be electrically and mechanically sound before soldering, ie. twisted together for a sufficient length to achieve this! The solder then just makes sure it does not become unsound at some future time.
I would think a 7mm soldered overlap on 2.5mm cable a bit iffy I must admit, I would not do it. (I missed that bit originaly).
Eric M
Rick Hughes <rhu...@newbridge.com> wrote in message news:38A1A5C2...@newbridge.com...
Andrew Gabriel
Rick Hughes <rhu...@newbridge.com> writes:
> Although not against the Regs, soldering is not considered good practise
> due to solder creep, especially if used on copper that is going into a
> screw fix terminal.
I think you are referring to using solder instead of a proper
bootlace ferrule on the end of stranded wire (in which case I would
agree).
However, correctly soldered connections are more reliable than
screwed connections, which is almost certainly why the regs require
that inaccessible connections must be soldered (or crimped) and not
just screwed. Screwed connections have the advantage that they can
be temporarily disconnected for testing and fault finding, whereas
an inaccessible connection by definition can't.
Phil Addison
>Hi,
>
>I think soldering is OK if done properly. Strictly speaking in any
>electrical connection other than in light current electronic
>connections the solder should only be to hold it together and make
>more permanant.
Agreed, but to be clear about this, the important point is that solder
alone is not able to sustain a significant mechanical load. It is purely
for electrical conductivity, and quite weak mechanically. Therefore the
wires must be mechanically held together as well, e.g. by one of the
already suggested methods.
>If the wires are simply laid together and soldered
>the solder is carrying current and has the potential to warm up...
A properly made soldered joint will have far too low a resistance to
warm up, in fact it will have less resistance than the base copper wire.
However, if it is a "dry" joint (ie poorly made) that is another story.
>The joint should really be electrically and mechanically sound
>before soldering, ie. twisted together for a sufficient length
>to achieve this! The solder then just makes sure it does not
>become unsound at some future time.
Agreed.
>I would think a 7mm soldered overlap on 2.5mm cable a bit iffy
>I must admit, I would not do it. (I missed that bit originaly).
I would think 25mm or so would be needed to get a mechanically sound
twist for soldering. And if heatshrink sleeving is used, don't forget to
put it on the cable before you solder it. :-)
--
Phil Addison | Please do not duplicate usenet follow-ups by email.
Bristol | Check my address for Anti-Spam measures.
Tony Williams
Phil Addison <ph...@antispam.see.below> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:40:20 -0000, in uk.d-i-y Eric M wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >I think soldering is OK if done properly. Strictly speaking in any
> >electrical connection other than in light current electronic
> >connections the solder should only be to hold it together and make
> >more permanant.
> Agreed, but to be clear about this, the important point is that solder
> alone is not able to sustain a significant mechanical load. It is purely
> for electrical conductivity, and quite weak mechanically. Therefore the
> wires must be mechanically held together as well, e.g. by one of the
> already suggested methods.
The trouble I have with this discussion about soldering
mains wires is the pvc insulation. Pvc softens very
easily with temperature, and soldering relatively thick
copper wires needs a lot of heat. If the T&E has any
sort of bend in it near the joint being heated then the
wires can move inside their (now very soft) pvc jackets,
maybe even touch. Worse still, they may not touch,
just move close enough to affect the integrity of the
isolation. Anyone in electronics who has soldered solid
wire with a pvc insulation will know the problem.
--
Tony Williams.
Tony Williams
Charles <Cha...@dalkey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <38ADC7BD...@newbridge.com>, Rick Hughes
> <rhu...@newbridge.com> writes
> >The advice being that wires should be twisted together before inserting
> >into for example the connectors on the back of a ac outlet, and not
> >soldered.
It should be noted that the original poster was talking
about a very limited circumstance for soldering. ie, An
inaccessible junction box, with the wires soldered to
make the (electrical) joint, and the terminal screws
merely holding the made-joints in place (no conductivity
required from terminal screw to the joint).
> Apart from overkill, any comments on using crimped terminations at the
> back of say an AC outlet? A better case would be a position inaccessible
> after wiring as mentioned earlier in this thread.
I'm not sure that crimps work on solid wire (T&E).
They are normally used on stranded, eg bootlace
ferrules.
--
Tony Williams.
John
Tony Williams <to...@ledelec.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4993b9a...@ledelec.demon.co.uk...
SNIP
>
> I'm not sure that crimps work on solid wire (T&E).
> They are normally used on stranded, eg bootlace
> ferrules.
Never had to crimp a lug onto big stuff then Tony?
Rick Hughes
crimpers) I can confirm that yes you can crimp solid conductors.
I worked in a lab where after rapid ageing in heated salt spray cabinets
we had to cut sections through these crimped on connectors and the tests
used to show that the conductor & ferrule had become one through cold
welding.
Rick
Charles DH Williams
> In article <38ADC7BD...@newbridge.com>, Rick Hughes
> <rhu...@newbridge.com> writes
> >
> >The advice being that wires should be twisted together before inserting
> >into for example the connectors on the back of a ac outlet, and not
> >soldered.
> >
> >
> >Rick
> Apart from overkill, any comments on using crimped terminations at the
> back of say an AC outlet? A better case would be a position inaccessible
> after wiring as mentioned earlier in this thread.
I caution against the temptation to 'improve' tried and tested standard
methods. My reasons:
(a) if it ain't broke...
(b) your improved method may have some unexpected failure mode.
(c) someone not as imaginative as you (surveyor, electrician, etc) may
notice the work is unconventional, not recognise its merits and
insist it is all redone 'properly' before their client agrees to
buy the place...
Charles
Tony Williams
John <jo...@ASboilerdoc.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Tony Williams <to...@ledelec.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4993b9a...@ledelec.demon.co.uk...
> SNIP
> >
> > I'm not sure that crimps work on solid wire (T&E).
> > They are normally used on stranded, eg bootlace
> > ferrules.
> Never had to crimp a lug onto big stuff then Tony?
I have done some 1000Amp stuff, did it all in lovely brass,
hex and flat, bolted together with brass bolts. Some people
still think that it was just an excuse to spend time on the
lathe, turning/threading/polishing (Brasso! Lovely smell).
Seriously though, small crimps (of the size to fit T&E)
are in relatively soft copper (probably softer than the
drawn wire they are meant to crimp on) and with just a
few weak corrugations, no teeth. I'm not sure that a
seriously reliable gas-tight cold-weld would be made.
--
Tony Williams.
Simon Avery
Hello Rick
RH> I worked in a lab where after rapid ageing in heated salt spray
RH> cabinets we had to cut sections through these crimped on
RH> connectors and the tests used to show that the conductor & ferrule
RH> had become one through cold welding.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Zen and the art of DIY"
--
Simon Avery, Devon, UK
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