Tanalised timber - colour?

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Brom...@googlemail.com

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Jun 24, 2008, 12:54:25 AM6/24/08
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What colour should tanalised timber fence panels be straight from the
supplier? They're the feather edged variety, not lap.

A neighbout had some installed and they're a faded orange. I was
pretty sure that tanalised (Tanalith E) stuff is green, which seems to
be confirmed by the manufacturers:
http://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/WOOD/Docs/TAN-E_TECH_DS_OCT_02.pdf

So I was a bit surprised when my tanaliased panels arrived and they're
that faded orange colour too. Should they be green?

Andrew Gabriel

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Jun 24, 2008, 3:00:53 AM6/24/08
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In article <2a9011b5-e786-4c82...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,

IME (of my neighbour's fence), these blow to pieces in the wind
before they rot in the rain, so I'm not sure I would bother paying
extra for ones which don't rot so fast.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Brom...@googlemail.com

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Jun 24, 2008, 3:13:22 AM6/24/08
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On 24 Jun, 08:00, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
> In article <2a9011b5-e786-4c82-8e1c-a50a65ea9...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,

>         "Bromle...@googlemail.com" <Bromle...@googlemail.com> writes:
>
> > What colour should tanalised timber fence panels be straight from the
> > supplier?  They're the feather edged variety, not lap.
>
> > A neighbout had some installed and they're a faded orange.  I was
> > pretty sure that tanalised (Tanalith E) stuff is green, which seems to
> > be confirmed by the manufacturers:
> >http://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/WOOD/Docs/TAN-E_TECH_DS_OCT_02.pdf
>
> > So I was a bit surprised when my tanaliased panels arrived and they're
> > that faded orange colour too.  Should they be green?
>
> IME (of my neighbour's fence), these blow to pieces in the wind
> before they rot in the rain, so I'm not sure I would bother paying
> extra for ones which don't rot so fast.
>
> --
> Andrew Gabriel
> [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Thanks, but that really shouldn't be a problem with a feather edge/
closeboard panel. Perhaps you're thinking of the orange lap panels
from the DIY stores? It's the similarily in colour between these and
those that's worrying me, as I assumed the store ones were just tank
dipped rather than pressure treated.

somebody

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Jun 24, 2008, 3:22:42 AM6/24/08
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In message
<02be4d6a-852f-4caf...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
"Brom...@googlemail.com" <Brom...@googlemail.com> writes

Not all treated timber is tanalised, I'm seeing more and more timber
treated with 'Protim' treatment. This gives no discernible colouring to
the timber. They supply a treatment certificate with the timber,
otherwise you wouldn't know it had been treated!

I think it's this stuff..

http://www.protimsolignum.com/

Hth
Someone

The Medway Handyman

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Jun 24, 2008, 3:40:44 AM6/24/08
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Just looked at the Wickes site. They list Dipped Close Board Panels (F/E)
which they state are
"Pressure-treated to ensure durability" and are orange. They also list
Premium Fence Panels (wany lap) and don't mention any kind of treatmant at
all. They are also orange.

So I guess you can't tell by the colour.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


Brom...@googlemail.com

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Jun 24, 2008, 3:42:50 AM6/24/08
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On 24 Jun, 08:22, somebody <i...@somewhere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message
> <02be4d6a-852f-4caf-9385-2bcc61569...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> "Bromle...@googlemail.com" <Bromle...@googlemail.com> writes
> Someone- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks somebody. By the look of it, the clear one is designed for
internal uses or high-maintenance external ones, i.e. window frames
etc. that are then painted.

Their NatureChoice one is green, as with tanalised stuff. Guess this
is a common theme arising from the copper. They do the Osmose Royale,
which appears to be treated under pressure with a coloured oil. Looks
really good compared to the tanalised effect (green or orange/brown!).

Brom...@googlemail.com

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Jun 24, 2008, 3:48:47 AM6/24/08
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On 24 Jun, 08:40, "The Medway Handyman"
<davidl...@nospamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Perfect! Thanks for that Dave - cold sweats abating.

Looking into it there is a colourant that may be added at some point
in the tanalising process called, you guessed it, tanatone. When you
read the descriptions of it it says brown, but I've just been
searching and a lot of the online pics look that faded orange colour I
was trying to describe. My stuff looks exactly like the closeboard
panels on the Conway Fencing website:
http://fatcollective.org/conwyfencing/products.html


So it's perfectly possible that that's what it is.

ma...@atics.co.uk

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Jun 24, 2008, 5:02:35 AM6/24/08
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On 24 Jun, 05:54, "Bromle...@googlemail.com"

Dear Bromley86

Tanalised timber used to be quite specifically “CCA” (Copper Chrome
Arsenate) in a water borne process, originally developed at the Forest
Research Institute in Dehra Dun, India. Its great property is that it
chemically combines with the hydroxyl groups on the timber and cannot,
therefore, be leached out by ponding or wicking when subjected to
passing water and fights the tendency of mycelial sacrificial hyphae
to translocate away from the hyphal front the heavy metal ions that do
the protection.
It had to remain in the treatment plant for (I think) 48 hours for the
chromium (7?) salts to fix and change because until it was fixed the
product was carcinogenic. Once fixed, the surface was fine and even ok
for children’s play grounds...then the Americans and the EU got their
teeth in (mainly a sop to the German “greens” in banning arsenic)and
had their way...
By studying decaying treated timber in compost (which is not the same
as ground contact) they discovered alleged leaching – which may well
have been translocation – and that was that! Other countries climbed
on the bandwagon as a purely precautionary measure even though the
product had been used for years with no epidemiological data to
suggest a problem.

The EU in its wisdom has taken away our facility to use arsenic and
the product is not longer the same.

Tanalith E is different in that it is “ a waterborne product based on
copper triazole technology. Copper is derived from recycled sources
and triazoles are organic biodegradable biocides, commonly used to
protect many of the food crops we eat.”
See http://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/WOOD/Docs/Tanal_E_process.pdf

No chrome – no arsenic

The alternative water borne chemicals used are now
Alkaline copper quaternary (ACQ)
Copper azole (see above)
Various other copper compounds

Water borne pressure treated timber with other than CCA or Tantath E
should not
really be called “tanalised” which is a registered trade name and
product

See http://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/WOOD/Products/PreservativeProtection/tanatone.htm

“Pressure Treated Timber With Built-In Colour
TANATONE pressure treated timber has been impregnated with TANALITH E
preservative containing a built-in brown colour. TANATONE is usually
specified for fencing and landscaping applications, eliminating the
need for brush applied colour at the point of installation.”

Mention was made in a later post of a dipped product.
This is not to be confused with or even compared with a pressure
impregnated product. The two perform quite differently.


Mention was also made of the Protim process (aka double vac or vac-
vac). This also is quite different. It used to be an OS borne
preservative (and technically still is) that got an active ingredient
into the timber without dimensional changes or, most importantly any
chemical fixing so it is less effective, and is used for internal
joinery and things like roof battens.
All such active ingredients are relatively easily leached out.

Nowadays the EU directive on such OSs have resulted in the development
of Aquavac where water is the carrier fluid. Result? Dimensional
changes to joinery – ok not bad ones but not good for high quality end
products

A coloured oil will be of limited use as its main function will be
water repellancy and UV protection with limited action as a fungicide.
It may look nice but that’s not much use if it rots!


Colour could be result of an added colouring agent or the active
ingredient
Simply ring up your supplier and ask what precisely he has supplied
and if it is not tanalith send it back!

Chris George

Andy Hall

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Jun 24, 2008, 6:35:02 AM6/24/08
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On 2008-06-24 08:40:44 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
<davi...@nospamblueyonder.co.uk> said:

You can also tell that they don't really know what they are selling.
Pressure treating is not the same as dipping in terms of penetration of
the preservative. However, I suppose that one might argue that it
won't make much difference with DIY store fence panels with boards not
much thicker than your Rizla papers.

I've found that it's far better to go to a specialist fence supplier,
ideally one who manufactures as well, and to select from their
products. They do the generic products at a lower price than the
supermarkets and much better quality ones for perhaps 30-50% more.
That plus a decent job with decent posts is worth the investment, I
think.


Martin Bonner

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Jun 24, 2008, 10:53:06 AM6/24/08
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> Seehttp://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/WOOD/Docs/Tanal_E_process.pdf

>
> No chrome – no arsenic
>
> The alternative water borne chemicals used are now
> Alkaline copper quaternary (ACQ)
> Copper azole (see above)
> Various other copper compounds
>
> Water borne pressure treated timber with other than CCA or Tantath E
> should not
> really be called “tanalised” which is a registered trade name and
> product
>
> Seehttp://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/WOOD/Products/PreservativeProtection...

Right. Can someone add this to the timber FAQ (or correct it).

Pete C

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Jun 24, 2008, 1:36:42 PM6/24/08
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On Jun 24, 5:54 am, "Bromle...@googlemail.com"

I would just make sure they don't end up with leaves or soil piled up
against them, and if they're somewhere sheltered apply a water
repellent preservative from time to time.

Before installing I would also coat (with a wood stain or bitumen
paint) the end grain at the bottom edge of the slats where they face
the ground .

cheers,
Pete.

The Medway Handyman

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Jun 24, 2008, 1:40:38 PM6/24/08
to
Andy Hall wrote:
> On 2008-06-24 08:40:44 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
> <davi...@nospamblueyonder.co.uk> said:
>
>> Brom...@googlemail.com wrote:
>>> What colour should tanalised timber fence panels be straight from
>>> the supplier? They're the feather edged variety, not lap.
>>>
>>> A neighbout had some installed and they're a faded orange. I was
>>> pretty sure that tanalised (Tanalith E) stuff is green, which seems
>>> to be confirmed by the manufacturers:
>>> http://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/WOOD/Docs/TAN-E_TECH_DS_OCT_02.pdf
>>>
>>> So I was a bit surprised when my tanaliased panels arrived and
>>> they're that faded orange colour too. Should they be green?
>>
>> Just looked at the Wickes site. They list Dipped Close Board Panels
>> (F/E) which they state are
>> "Pressure-treated to ensure durability" and are orange. They also
>> list Premium Fence Panels (wany lap) and don't mention any kind of
>> treatmant at all. They are also orange.
>>
>> So I guess you can't tell by the colour.
>
> You can also tell that they don't really know what they are selling.
> Pressure treating is not the same as dipping in terms of penetration
> of the preservative.

I noticed that as well. Are they dipped or pressure treated?

> However, I suppose that one might argue that it
> won't make much difference with DIY store fence panels with boards not
> much thicker than your Rizla papers.

The Wickes close boarded FE panels are pretty good actually.


>
> I've found that it's far better to go to a specialist fence supplier,
> ideally one who manufactures as well, and to select from their
> products. They do the generic products at a lower price than the
> supermarkets and much better quality ones for perhaps 30-50% more.
> That plus a decent job with decent posts is worth the investment, I
> think.

Agreed. I buy my fence panels & decking stuff from BATS who are a timber
importer.

The Medway Handyman

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Jun 24, 2008, 1:45:21 PM6/24/08
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ma...@atics.co.uk wrote:

>
> Tanalised timber used to be quite specifically “CCA” (Copper Chrome
> Arsenate) in a water borne process, originally developed at the Forest
> Research Institute in Dehra Dun, India. Its great property is that it
> chemically combines with the hydroxyl groups on the timber and cannot,
> therefore, be leached out by ponding or wicking when subjected to
> passing water and fights the tendency of mycelial sacrificial hyphae
> to translocate away from the hyphal front the heavy metal ions that do
> the protection.

<SNIP>


Chris, please, please, please find the time to add your knowledge of timber
preservation to the group Wiki thingy (John Rumm knows what I mean).

Brom...@googlemail.com

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Jun 24, 2008, 4:08:30 PM6/24/08
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On 24 Jun, 10:02, m...@atics.co.uk wrote:

> Chris George

Thanks Chris, love the detail! My supplier has said that it's
tanalised, so it was just my suspicious nature that made me ask.

John Rumm

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Jun 24, 2008, 8:16:50 PM6/24/08
to
The Medway Handyman wrote:
> Andy Hall wrote:

>> You can also tell that they don't really know what they are selling.
>> Pressure treating is not the same as dipping in terms of penetration
>> of the preservative.
>
> I noticed that as well. Are they dipped or pressure treated?
>
>> However, I suppose that one might argue that it
>> won't make much difference with DIY store fence panels with boards not
>> much thicker than your Rizla papers.

We have a good local fencing place and they make all their own stuff
(including posts and gravel boards). They seem to just dip[1] panels
rather than pressure treat, but it does not seem to have reduced the
life of any of them. Ones I replaced 12 years ago with feather edge
close boarded (made with proper aris rail), are still as solid as when
new. The colour has faded somewhat.

[1] The lass who runs the place says you can return them at any time to
have them re-dipped at no charge if you want!


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

John Rumm

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Jun 24, 2008, 8:44:05 PM6/24/08
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The Medway Handyman wrote:

> Chris, please, please, please find the time to add your knowledge of timber
> preservation to the group Wiki thingy (John Rumm knows what I mean).

Yup, I would second that... (Chris' post from the other day regarding
durability of various timber species would make a good article as well).

There is already a (funny) wood rot article:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Wood_Rot

and a more serious one:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Wood_Preservatives

That lacks anything on pressure treated timber and similar processes.
Perhaps a new section would be handy?

If you fancy adding some stuff, then just hit the edit link at the top
of the page to add stuff - note that due to previous issues with
spamming, this particular article is protected from anonymous edits -
you need to log in first to edit this one, you can create an account if
required. Alternatively if you prefer to leave wiki editing to others,
just post the article here and someone will copy it over for you.

meow...@care2.com

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Jun 24, 2008, 11:02:34 PM6/24/08
to
On Jun 24, 10:02 am, m...@atics.co.uk wrote:

> Seehttp://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/WOOD/Docs/Tanal_E_process.pdf


>
> No chrome – no arsenic
>
> The alternative water borne chemicals used are now
> Alkaline copper quaternary (ACQ)
> Copper azole (see above)
> Various other copper compounds
>
> Water borne pressure treated timber with other than CCA or Tantath E
> should not
> really be called “tanalised” which is a registered trade name and
> product
>

> Seehttp://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/WOOD/Products/PreservativeProtection...


Chris, would you mind if I copied that onto our wiki? The wood rot
article is really in need of more expertise. Or if you prefer to write
something specifically for the wiki, great.

http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Wood_Rot


NT

ma...@atics.co.uk

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Jun 25, 2008, 2:44:07 AM6/25/08
to

Dear John
As you may realise, I run a business (name and address witheld!)as a
consultant in timber biodeterioration with particular reference to
historic buildings and litigation mainly about dry rot, but for the
last 11 months have put it on hold as I have been working on designing
and installing a heat pump in Anglesey for SWIMBO's house which I do
not own. That has meant I have been away from my office in London for
all but about 7 days of the last 11 months and working on this major
project which involved largely a rebuild. 12 to 16 hour days and up
to 6 chaps on site none of whom have the slightest clue as to what a
critical path analysis is or can plan for more than a few hours in
advance! (the builder was partly administered by the architect who
visited about once a month and thus had free reign to come (or not!)
and go as he liked depending on his other jobs. It overan by 52 weeks
on a 20 week contract - yes that makes 72 weeks!) I say all this to
explain that I cannot take time to write a proper article with the
appropriate references that is accurate and up to date until probably
next September when the project will be finished and I have returned
back to London. Happy to do it then
In the meantime feel free to add any bon mots to the FAQ but not to
wikipedia until I have made sure of my accuracy and tidied it up

If I do get a moment I will most certainly try to use your link but at
present I am back in London on an expert opinon for the Construction
Court with deadlines and only here until 10th July when I go back to
Anglesey.
Chris

John Rumm

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Jun 25, 2008, 5:49:34 AM6/25/08
to
ma...@atics.co.uk wrote:

> Dear John
> As you may realise, I run a business (name and address witheld!)as a
> consultant in timber biodeterioration with particular reference to
> historic buildings and litigation mainly about dry rot, but for the

Yup, I did stick a www on your domain name and have a look about ;-)

> last 11 months have put it on hold as I have been working on designing
> and installing a heat pump in Anglesey for SWIMBO's house which I do
> not own. That has meant I have been away from my office in London for
> all but about 7 days of the last 11 months and working on this major
> project which involved largely a rebuild. 12 to 16 hour days and up
> to 6 chaps on site none of whom have the slightest clue as to what a
> critical path analysis is or can plan for more than a few hours in
> advance! (the builder was partly administered by the architect who
> visited about once a month and thus had free reign to come (or not!)
> and go as he liked depending on his other jobs. It overan by 52 weeks
> on a 20 week contract - yes that makes 72 weeks!) I say all this to
> explain that I cannot take time to write a proper article with the
> appropriate references that is accurate and up to date until probably
> next September when the project will be finished and I have returned
> back to London. Happy to do it then

Quite understand!

> In the meantime feel free to add any bon mots to the FAQ but not to
> wikipedia until I have made sure of my accuracy and tidied it up

I was not suggesting wikipedia - we have our own wiki just for this
group hosted by one of the regulars:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/

(it uses the same software as wikipedia, but has no relation other than
that)

There is also the older FAQ:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

but we tend to add most new content to the wiki since it is less hassle
for the FAQ maintainer.

> If I do get a moment I will most certainly try to use your link but at
> present I am back in London on an expert opinon for the Construction
> Court with deadlines and only here until 10th July when I go back to
> Anglesey.

If you have no objections, we can grab some of the particularly useful
bits from your recent postings and use them to augment articles etc.

When we create completely new articles we normally follow the convention
of posting a link here for comments anyway, so any such use should be
visible for you when you do get time.

ma...@atics.co.uk

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Jun 25, 2008, 12:35:01 PM6/25/08
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On 25 Jun, 10:49, John Rumm <see.my.signat...@nowhere.null> wrote:

John
Now that I know your own Wiki is your own - feel free to use whatever
you like and send me the link and I can just double check it is OK
which I am sure it will be
Good luck
Chris

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