"This appliance must be earthed"

[D.M. Procida]

I'm in the Netherlands at the moment, looking at a piece of equipment (a
hi-fi amplifier) and the mains sockets.

The amplifier has a "This appliance must be earthed" label on it. The
mains sockets, apart from the ones in the kitchen, have no earth
connection.

Are the Dutch supposed to listen to their hi-fi in the kitchen or
something?

It also seems odd to me that I can plug earthed plugs into unearthed
sockets. What could possibly go wrong?

Daniele

[Jim GM4DHJ ...]

"D.M. Procida" <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote in
message
news:1ng7of3.14r091vnzyjljN%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk...

go on take a chance ....

[harry]

There is a nib on no-earth sockets so the earthed plugs won't fit.
https://www.power-plugs-sockets.com/netherlands-holland/
Could have the wrong plug fitted I suppose.

[D.M. Procida]

harry <harry...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 28 November 2017 17:02:27 UTC, D.M. Procida wrote:
> > I'm in the Netherlands at the moment, looking at a piece of equipment (a
> > hi-fi amplifier) and the mains sockets.
> >
> > The amplifier has a "This appliance must be earthed" label on it. The
> > mains sockets, apart from the ones in the kitchen, have no earth
> > connection.
> >
> > Are the Dutch supposed to listen to their hi-fi in the kitchen or
> > something?
> >
> > It also seems odd to me that I can plug earthed plugs into unearthed
> > sockets. What could possibly go wrong?

> There is a nib on no-earth sockets so the earthed plugs won't fit.
> https://www.power-plugs-sockets.com/netherlands-holland/
> Could have the wrong plug fitted I suppose.

There is indeed a nib (two in fact). However, the nibbed plugs (type F)
fit very happily into the unearthed sockets (type C).

Daniele

[GB]

What are the nibs for then?


>
> Daniele
>

[D.M. Procida]

GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote:

> >> There is a nib on no-earth sockets so the earthed plugs won't fit.
> >> https://www.power-plugs-sockets.com/netherlands-holland/
> >> Could have the wrong plug fitted I suppose.
> >
> > There is indeed a nib (two in fact). However, the nibbed plugs (type F)
> > fit very happily into the unearthed sockets (type C).
>
> What are the nibs for then?

Decoration? Aerodynamics? Enhanced pleasure? Honestly, I'm a bit
baffled.

I'll do some research on whether Dutch people experience higher rates of
electrocution.

Daniele

[Iggy]

replying to D.M. Procida, Iggy wrote:
Nope, you're just the "lucky" recipient of a poorly updated place. Some people
hire others called Electricians to fix such situations. But, you and the
appliance are already on Earth, so I'm not sure the expense would be
justified. I know I need a good jolt every once in a while and I know the
appliance doesn't mind sharing some sweet nectar. However, yes it must only go
in the kitchen due to a April 27th proclamation. "Nothing can be made with
love without music, especially loud music"...I believe the quote
was...immediately followed by something about another round of Jenever and
Heineken, whomever they are or whatever that means.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/this-appliance-must-be-earthed-1253100-.htm

[Robin]

I would expect any effect of the plug/socket combinations to be vastly
outweighed by the effect of the Dutch people's intelligence and nous.

Ah - perhaps the plug/socket combinations is part of a cunning plan to
... :)


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Steve]

I read the thread title as "This apprentice must be earthed" and was
surprised that it wasn't posted by ARW.

[D.M. Procida]

I see from
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#CEE_7.2F1_unearthed_socket_and_CEE_7.2F2_unearthed_plug>
that this actually appears to be a common combination.

Apparently, "in the Netherlands and Sweden it is still common to find
them [i.e. unearthed sockets] in "dry areas" such as in bedrooms or
living rooms."

If there's one thing I've learned not to make assumptions about it's
what happens in bedooms.

Daniele

[Brian Gaff]

Sounds like somebody is covering their own backs to me.

In the old days too many earths were also bad.
I have never come across any modern hi fi stuff that had to be earthed here
in the UK indeed most has two core mains leads.
The only one I found that did was a JVC pro model graphic Equaliser, but as
it was in a wooden box and the front panel was metal but not joined to any
earth I never did see the point.
In the old days of Valves though most stuff did have three core leads.

Brian

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"D.M. Procida" <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote in
message
news:1ng7of3.14r091vnzyjljN%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk...

[Brian Gaff]

Who knows but this has to be a world wide issue as if you look inside some
hi fi, the one I saw was marantz, but it had a definite earth inside the
case, but the cut out for the three pin connection on the back of the amp
was covered by a plate containing a two core figure of 8 type socket. The
earth ended in a connection block and appeared to go so somewhere under th3e
pcb.
I'm thinking that most of these things are double insulated in any case so
maybe in some countries they go through the motions of adding an earth but
the actual transformer is still double insulated in some way. Increasingly
amps seem to be going switch mode psu with ridiculously small ferrite cored
little transformers running big amps.

Brian

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"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
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[Brian Gaff]

No they wear red underwear just for fun.

Brian

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"D.M. Procida" <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote in
message

news:1ng7s2u.w2o6pxl1m3iuN%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk...

[Andy Burns]

Brian Gaff wrote:

> I have never come across any modern hi fi stuff that had to be earthed here
> in the UK indeed most has two core mains leads.

My amp has a mains inlet for a kettle-style lead, but it only has L and
N pins, so even if you use a C13 or C15 lead instead of the supplied C17
lead, it will not connect to earth.

[Johnny B Good]

On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 19:23:07 +0000, Steve wrote:

====snip====

>
> I read the thread title as "This apprentice must be earthed" and was
> surprised that it wasn't posted by ARW.

AOL :-)

--
Johnny B Good

[Max Demian]

On 28/11/2017 20:15, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Who knows but this has to be a world wide issue as if you look inside some
> hi fi, the one I saw was marantz, but it had a definite earth inside the
> case, but the cut out for the three pin connection on the back of the amp
> was covered by a plate containing a two core figure of 8 type socket. The
> earth ended in a connection block and appeared to go so somewhere under th3e
> pcb.
> I'm thinking that most of these things are double insulated in any case so
> maybe in some countries they go through the motions of adding an earth but
> the actual transformer is still double insulated in some way. Increasingly
> amps seem to be going switch mode psu with ridiculously small ferrite cored
> little transformers running big amps.

I thought hi-fi amps were the last bastion of mains transformers, often
toroidal. All mine have been.

--
Max Demian

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <1ng7w8g.1fyn74a1rnmsh0N%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk>,

real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida) writes:
> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I'm in the Netherlands at the moment, looking at a piece of equipment (a
>> hi-fi amplifier) and the mains sockets.
>>
>> The amplifier has a "This appliance must be earthed" label on it. The
>> mains sockets, apart from the ones in the kitchen, have no earth
>> connection.
>>
>> Are the Dutch supposed to listen to their hi-fi in the kitchen or
>> something?
>>
>> It also seems odd to me that I can plug earthed plugs into unearthed
>> sockets. What could possibly go wrong?
>
> I see from
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#CEE_7.2F1_unearthed_socket_and_CEE_7.2F2_unearthed_plug>
> that this actually appears to be a common combination.
>
> Apparently, "in the Netherlands and Sweden it is still common to find
> them [i.e. unearthed sockets] in "dry areas" such as in bedrooms or
> living rooms."

The Dutch have a concept of earth-free rooms where there is supposed
to be no exposed earthed metalwork, and can have unearthed sockets
in such rooms. Don't know if that is still allowed in new installs,
but it exists in installations around.

By observation (although I don't know about rules), PAT testing must
be non-existant in Dutch hotels too.

> If there's one thing I've learned not to make assumptions about it's
> what happens in bedooms.
>
> Daniele

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[Max Demian]

On 29/11/2017 18:10, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
> In article <1ng7w8g.1fyn74a1rnmsh0N%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk>,
> real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida) writes:
>> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm in the Netherlands at the moment, looking at a piece of equipment (a
>>> hi-fi amplifier) and the mains sockets.
>>>
>>> The amplifier has a "This appliance must be earthed" label on it. The
>>> mains sockets, apart from the ones in the kitchen, have no earth
>>> connection.
>>>
>>> Are the Dutch supposed to listen to their hi-fi in the kitchen or
>>> something?
>>>
>>> It also seems odd to me that I can plug earthed plugs into unearthed
>>> sockets. What could possibly go wrong?
>>
>> I see from
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#CEE_7.2F1_unearthed_socket_and_CEE_7.2F2_unearthed_plug>
>> that this actually appears to be a common combination.
>>
>> Apparently, "in the Netherlands and Sweden it is still common to find
>> them [i.e. unearthed sockets] in "dry areas" such as in bedrooms or
>> living rooms."
>
> The Dutch have a concept of earth-free rooms where there is supposed
> to be no exposed earthed metalwork, and can have unearthed sockets
> in such rooms. Don't know if that is still allowed in new installs,
> but it exists in installations around.

Do they think that you can touch a live wire with impunity provided you
aren't earthed? What about capacitative earthing, i.e. just being near
something earthy?

--
Max Demian

[D.M. Procida]

Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > Apparently, "in the Netherlands and Sweden it is still common to find
> > them [i.e. unearthed sockets] in "dry areas" such as in bedrooms or
> > living rooms."
>
> The Dutch have a concept of earth-free rooms where there is supposed
> to be no exposed earthed metalwork, and can have unearthed sockets
> in such rooms. Don't know if that is still allowed in new installs,
> but it exists in installations around.

I don't really understand that. The apartment I'm in was built in 1996.

The sockets in the kitchen are practically *in* the sink, by the way.
They're earthed, but those elsewhere in the same room (the
kitchen/dining room/sitting room are effectively the same room) are not.

The unearthed sockets are nearly all within touching distance of
radiators.

I'm just really puzzled about what actually happens in the Netherlands,
when people buy or acquire items that ought to be or must be earthed. As
far as I know, the Dutch aren't regularly electrocuted.

Maybe the Dutch electrical system simply dismisses the small risk that
makes manufacturers put "This appliance must be earthed" stickers on
their devices in the UK.

I simply don't know.

Daniele

[Rod Speed]

"Max Demian" <max_d...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:_ZmdneCchp6UmoLH...@brightview.co.uk...

Not going to kill you.

[whisky-dave]

The theory I've heard via the French is that you are more likely to be electrcuted vai earth in a bathroom than from teh live wire as live wires arentl normally exposed in bathroom. So if any fault appears anywhere in the rest of the property and there is something wrong in the earthing all the earthing point may well go live, this means that any earth points such as plug holes pipes and tapes would become live.

I've seen this happen in london after a friend called me saying she thinks she's feeling electricity when taking a shower. The insinkerator(SP) had failed/faulty
earlity that week so I checked that out first and the woring on that was at fault and teh earth lead was touching the live lead and it appeared that the whol e falt wassn't earthed, even the hot water raidaitors on the wall were live when I scratch the paint of and I nused a neon screwdriver and then a meter showed they were LIVE, so were the saucpans on the gas hob!

So I can understand the logic behind not earthing places like the bathroom , but that deosn't mean I agree with it.

[Terry Casey]

In article <ovk8ek$615$1...@dont-email.me>,
NOTso...@microsoft.com says...

The 'nibs', as you call them are the metal sprung earth side
contacts which are a feature of the Schuko plug/socket and
clearly visible here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Steckdos
e.jpg

or https://tinyurl.com/Schuko-nibs.

The two keyways on either side engage with the plug before
any contact is made and ensures that the plug & socket are
correctly aligned.

In this picture of the moulded modified Schuko connector
fitted to electrical goods, one of the side earth contacts
can be seen:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/CEE_7-
7.jpg

or https://tinyurl.com/CEE-7-7-jpg

This connector also features the female earth contact to fit
French sockets with the projecting earth pin, thus the
connector fits both Schuko and French sockets without
requiring a change of connector.

However, a feature of both systems, as already stated for
Schuko, is that earthed plugs also fit unearthed sockets.

Paradoxically, unearthed French plugs will not fit earthed
French sockets unles a dummy hole to accomodate the earth
pin is provided.

This must have been a particular problem when earthed
sockets first started being installed in France and Belgium
in significant numbers.

--

Terry

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[Rod Speed]

"whisky-dave" <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7e0a0f06-20e6-409f...@googlegroups.com...

> On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 19:14:19 UTC, Max Demian wrote:
>> On 29/11/2017 18:10, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>
>> Do they think that you can touch a live wire with impunity provided you
>> aren't earthed? What about capacitative earthing, i.e. just being near
>> something earthy?

> The theory I've heard via the French is that you are more likely to
> be electrcuted vai earth in a bathroom than from teh live wire as live
> wires arentl normally exposed in bathroom. So if any fault appears
> anywhere in the rest of the property and there is something wrong in
> the earthing all the earthing point may well go live, this means that any
> earth points such as plug holes pipes and tapes would become live.

The problem with that line is that while that can happen, there
wouldn’t normally be any earthed metal in that bathroom then.

> I've seen this happen in london after a friend called me saying
> she thinks she's feeling electricity when taking a shower. The
> insinkerator(SP) had failed/faulty earlity that week so I checked
> that out first and the woring on that was at fault and teh earth lead

> was touching the live lead and it appeared that the whole falt wassn't

[Mike Clarke]

On 30/11/2017 11:17, whisky-dave wrote:
> So I can understand the logic behind not earthing places like the bathroom , but that deosn't mean I agree with it.

That's why equipotential bonding is required for the pipework.

--
Mike Clarke

[D.M. Procida]

You will be either pleased or disgusted to know that I got fed up with a
trailing lead to the earthed socket, and have the amplifier plugged into
an uneathered one.

I reckoned that since the amplifier has run happily since 1988 without
showing any signs of shorting live to the chassis, it's not likely to do
it spontaneously now. Also, the cable across the floor was a hazard.

Eventually I will see if I can get this place rewired with earthed
sockets.

Daniele

[Johnny B Good]

On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 18:42:44 +0100, D.M. Procida wrote:

====snip====

>
> Eventually I will see if I can get this place rewired with earthed
> sockets.
>

Are you not actually resident in the UK then?

--
Johnny B Good

[D.M. Procida]

Let's just say that I am working on my options, at least until the UK
government decides what it wants to do with people like me.

Daniele