stupid question: switches for oven, fan, dishwasher etc
David Robinson
On Site Guide says that things like ovens, dishwashers, fridges, fans
etc must have accessible isolation switches.
In our kitchen, each of these things (except the extractor fan!) will
be connected to its own out-of-the-way socket. Original plan was to
provide each socket with a 20A DP switch above the worktop, but most
of them will _never_ be switched off. So I'm going to end up with all
these switches above the worktops, spoiling the look of the place, and
giving my little darlings the opportunity to switch off things that
shouldn't be (like the fridge!).
The wiring (complete re-wire) will have to be inspected - is these
anything I can do that will still "pass", but won't leave at least
four unwanted switches visible?
The only one I actually _want_ is the fan - and that's already painful
enough with a FCU isolator (hoping to put this above a wall cabinet),
plus an accessible switch for manual override.
Cheers,
David.
UPVC@invalid.invalid Mr UPVC
news:f8d6c004-a1be-4bb8...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
You can get modular switches which might allow you to fit all the switches
in a double-width back box:
http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/modular+switch/q01.r10.2/Search.raction
It looks like MK do some kind of key-operated switch, which might be
suitable for the fridge.
1501
wrote:
Would it possible to place each DP switch concealed in a wall cupboard
above the item? I had a (transformered) shaver socket in the bathroom
that looked ugly but I was able to place the bathroom cabinet over it
so it was accessible through the back. I had to fit a spacer between
the hardboard cabinet back and the wall using extra long 3.5mm screws
into the pattress.
Dave Plowman (News)
<f8d6c004-a1be-4bb8...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
David Robinson <davidr...@postmaster.co.uk> wrote:
> On Site Guide says that things like ovens, dishwashers, fridges, fans
> etc must have accessible isolation switches.
So is it saying a fridge plugged into an unswitched accessible socket is
against regs? And does it define 'accessible'. In other parts a junction
box under floorboards is 'accessible'.
--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
harry
All appliances need to have an isolator within easy reach of the
operator.
Isolator means both live and neutral are disconnected. An ordinary
plug therefore counts as an isolator.(It can be pulled out) The
reason for this is when is is being maintained, the person maintaining
it has control of it, ie no-one comes along and switches on whilst
it's being worked on. That's why your immersion heater has a switch
in the airing cupboard right next to it.
On final sub-circuits where the isolator is remote there has to be
facillty for locking the isolator off with padlock(s).
ARWadsworth
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:512ddb7...@davenoise.co.uk...
Nothing wrong with using a socket as a means of isolation for fridges etc.
Unswitched or double pole switched sockets are preferable.
Accessible? Have you seen the stuff my Mum has got shoved infront of her
dishwasher socket at the back of the cupboard next to the dishwasher. I can
lift floorboards faster than emptying that cupboard.
Electric hobs do need to have accessible switching for obvious reasons.
Cheers
Adam
Dave Plowman (News)
ARWadsworth <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:512ddb7...@davenoise.co.uk...
> > In article
> > <f8d6c004-a1be-4bb8...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
> > David Robinson <davidr...@postmaster.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Site Guide says that things like ovens, dishwashers, fridges, fans
> >> etc must have accessible isolation switches.
> >
> > So is it saying a fridge plugged into an unswitched accessible socket
> > is against regs? And does it define 'accessible'. In other parts a
> > junction box under floorboards is 'accessible'.
> Nothing wrong with using a socket as a means of isolation for fridges
> etc. Unswitched or double pole switched sockets are preferable.
Right. It was the word 'switch' which I was concerned about.
> Accessible? Have you seen the stuff my Mum has got shoved infront of her
> dishwasher socket at the back of the cupboard next to the dishwasher. I
> can lift floorboards faster than emptying that cupboard.
I mounted mine as high as possible, reckoning I could just about squeeze
an arm above the inevitable rubbish known as essential cleaning materials.
> Electric hobs do need to have accessible switching for obvious reasons.
Given most might not be able to be on an approved plug and socket that's
fair enough.
--
*Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?"
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
Spamlet
"ARWadsworth" <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qoHVn.44204$We4.4315@hurricane...
Our hob/oven one is accessible, though I never really know whether the
switch is going to move before my thumb breaks! It actually gets a fair bit
of use, because the Bosch oven insists on using a fan to cool itself down,
instead of just turning off and cooling naturally: with no option to
override this, we have to turn off at the wall after cooking anything.
S
js.b1
- Built-in appliance = isolation switch above worktop
- Standalone appliance = isolation can be behind appliance
Cookers etc require separate treatment re dedicated supply.
So unless your appliances are built-in I would not be too concerned.
An unswitched socket is a valid means of isolation - it forces the
unplugging rather than mere turning off what could be a single pole
switch on a socket (yes most are double pole these days).
js.b1
Wiring multiple grid accessories is a bit fiddly.
A large box is much easier to wire than slim, eg, for 2-3 switches use
a 3-module 2G faceplate.
Grid backboxes are different.
Flush grid backboxes have fixed mounting lugs - because the module
mounting frames provide adjustability.
Flush grid backboxes are meant to sit FLUSH with the finished surface
so the module mounting frame fingers which overlap the edge of the box
have a solid surface to sit against. If the box is not flush those
frame fingers must be supported by tiles or plaster.
The faceplate must sit flat on the mounting frame, otherwise the
modules will not sit correctly underneath re flush & level.
This will be obvious when you play with Grid in your hand.
MK Grid is quite expensive - labelled switches are about £5 and
labelled switches with neon about £6.50.
It can be useful to have a single central isolator - such as 32A 1G or
45A 2G isolator for all kitchen sockets. The 2m rule may apply
depending on the appliances controlled. It gives a single point of
isolation before you go for the fire blanket rather than fighting your
way through a maze of grid switch labels.
A remote cooker hood switch can be handy if you have a midget and the
hood & controls are mounted quite high (higher is better because the
top-vents on many help to remove hot stagnant air by the ceiling).
However personally I prefer a runback timer for cooker hoods - such as
the Electrisave 15 (15/30/45min) or 30 (30/60/120min) which permit a
defined cutoff period as well as ability to leave it running to get
heat out after cooking (leave cooker/oven doors open, kitchen door
shut).
The Natural Philosopher
The question is what constitutes 'built in'
ARWadsworth
> In article <qoHVn.44204$We4.4315@hurricane>,
> ARWadsworth <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:512ddb7...@davenoise.co.uk...
>> > In article
>> > <f8d6c004-a1be-4bb8...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>> > David Robinson <davidr...@postmaster.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> On Site Guide says that things like ovens, dishwashers, fridges, fans
>> >> etc must have accessible isolation switches.
>> >
>> > So is it saying a fridge plugged into an unswitched accessible socket
>> > is against regs? And does it define 'accessible'. In other parts a
>> > junction box under floorboards is 'accessible'.
>
>> Nothing wrong with using a socket as a means of isolation for fridges
>> etc. Unswitched or double pole switched sockets are preferable.
>
> Right. It was the word 'switch' which I was concerned about.
>
>> Accessible? Have you seen the stuff my Mum has got shoved infront of her
>> dishwasher socket at the back of the cupboard next to the dishwasher. I
>> can lift floorboards faster than emptying that cupboard.
>
> I mounted mine as high as possible, reckoning I could just about squeeze
> an arm above the inevitable rubbish known as essential cleaning materials.
When did you last have to unplug your fridge/freezer/dishwsher etc? I
plugged my waching maching in 10 years ago and I unplugged it for the first
time last week when I swapped it for a newer one (I am not going to say no
to a free 12 month old washer).
>> Electric hobs do need to have accessible switching for obvious reasons.
>
> Given most might not be able to be on an approved plug and socket that's
> fair enough.
And the fire risk. Although to be fair I now do a lot of insurance work and
I have worked on more house fires caused by candles than cookers.
Cheers
Adam
RobertL
wrote:
> I'm sure I know the answer, but I can't quite believe it.
>
> On Site Guide says that things like ovens, dishwashers, fridges, fans
> etc must have accessible isolation switches.
Do they each have to have their own individual switch or could you
have one conveniently located switch that turns off the whole kitchen?
Robert
js.b1
wrote:
Built In = Integrated Appliance.
Andy Dingley
wrote:
> And the fire risk. Although to be fair I now do a lot of insurance work and
> I have worked on more house fires caused by candles than cookers.
Probably thanks even more to McD's replacing the domestic chip pan.
Jim
>> In our kitchen, each of these things (except the extractor fan!) will
>> be connected to its own out-of-the-way socket. Original plan was to
>> provide each socket with a 20A DP switch above the worktop, but most
>> of them will _never_ be switched off. So I'm going to end up with all
>> these switches above the worktops, spoiling the look of the place, and
>> giving my little darlings the opportunity to switch off things that
>> shouldn't be (like the fridge!).
>>
>> The wiring (complete re-wire) will have to be inspected - is these
>> anything I can do that will still "pass", but won't leave at least
>> four unwanted switches visible?
>>
>> The only one I actually _want_ is the fan - and that's already painful
>> enough with a FCU isolator (hoping to put this above a wall cabinet),
>> plus an accessible switch for manual override.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> David.
>
> You can get modular switches which might allow you to fit all the switches
> in a double-width back box:
Even if it's otherwise allowable, I'd hate to try and make connections
for 6x 2.5mm cables and the 2x 10mm ones for the oven in the same double
back box.
ARWadsworth
"js.b1" <js...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:98f81933-60cd-487c...@k39g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
I can see no reason why an integrated appliance needs an isolation switch
above the worktop.
It only needs some sort of accessible switching. And that includes removing
the contents of the cupboard next to the appliance to access the plug.
Cheers
Adam
Toby
"Spamlet" <spam.m...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:i07o7t$klj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> Our hob/oven one is accessible, though I never really know whether the
> switch is going to move before my thumb breaks! It actually gets a fair
> bit of use, because the Bosch oven insists on using a fan to cool itself
> down, instead of just turning off and cooling naturally: with no option to
> override this, we have to turn off at the wall after cooking anything.
>
> S
>
Be careful with that - I think you will find the fan isn't to cool the oven
down, but to stop the control electronics getting baked. Our Siemens (Bosh!)
oven does this Does yours hoot air out the front, just under the control
panel, that runs when the oven is on too? if so, that is what it's for...
Toby...
1970alr
> "Spamlet" <spam.mores...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> Be careful with that - I think you will find the fan isn't to cool the oven
> down, but to stop the control electronics getting baked. Our Siemens (Bosh!)
> oven does this Does yours hoot air out the front, just under the control
> panel, that runs when the oven is on too? if so, that is what it's for...
>
Is that what it's for? Well it's a real noisy nuisance in many
cookers. Whay can't they do it more quietly?
It's not as if it's something they advertise in advance: "by the way,
this cooker makes so much noise that you'll feel that feeling of
blessed relief when it stops half an hour into your meal".
Andrew
harry
wrote:
It means if you can just drag the (eg fridge) out a plug behind is
OK. If it can't be easily removed (eg screwed down) it needs an
isolator where it can be got at. Which could still be a plug. It
removes the temptation to fiddle with it "live".
js.b1
> On 28 June, 16:29, "Toby" <postmas...@127.0.0.1.invalid> wrote:
>
> > "Spamlet" <spam.mores...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> > Be careful with that - I think you will find the fan isn't to cool the oven
> > down, but to stop the control electronics getting baked. Our Siemens (Bosh!)
> > oven does this Does yours hoot air out the front, just under the control
> > panel, that runs when the oven is on too? if so, that is what it's for...
>
> Is that what it's for? Well it's a real noisy nuisance in many
> cookers. Whay can't they do it more quietly?
Most are relatively quiet.
The "oven COOLING fan" is usually a very wide radial (cross-flow)
blower and can be £120 a go, likewise the electronic control panel can
be a similar amount. The "main OVEN fan" is a simple axial fan,
typically £12-19 and scream blue murder as they fail. I know I just
did one and thus far all is fine.
Ah, do you find your oven cooling fan is emitting a "br-br-br"
resonating like an diesel freight locomotive? If so then the rear
access panel may be vibrating at a certain temperature re expansion &
screw preload. You can tighten the screws slightly (they will strip if
abused) or remove it, create a very slight twist and refit, anything
to alter the frequency at which the panel exhibits sympathetic
resonance with the oven / oven cooling fan.
Beware the amount of dust in fan ovens can be spectacular, I think I
removed about 15lbs of dense heavy clouds of dust - it seems to "drip"
off the "dust caked" oven cooling fan and down onto the oven cooling
fan below. Dust isn't good re acting as a store for any oil or grease
and ignition. Normally it is cooker hoods that cause fires, the motor
stalls or overheats which lights off the grease/dust. Typical cooker
hood AC motors do not cutout electronically, they have a crude
bimetallic strip or thermal fuse or even nothing at all, when stalled
current draw goes to maximum yet cooling is minimum so things get
ugly. Cheap bathroom extractors also suffer from dust/overheating &
fire/meltdown.
John
"Toby" <postm...@127.0.0.1.invalid> wrote in message
news:i0af59$h5b$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
is to stop the controls and electrics from overheating as the heat conducts
out of the oven cavity. Mine will sometimes switch itself back on again for
a while as more heat dissipates.
It is doing what it is designed to do - and uses very little power.