Part P new wiring colours –more obfuscation

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CRB

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Dec 2, 2004, 10:50:00 AM12/2/04
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Having been told by TLC that Part P (specifically in relation to the
harmonised colours) will not come into force until 1st January 2006
(got it right this time), I have just been told by another electrical
wholesaler that although Part P comes into force on 1st January 2005,
the harmonised colour requirement does indeed only come into effect on
1st January 2006. This was confirmed by their supplier's
representative who happened to be doing his rounds at the time.
Assuming this to be true, does this mean only that Red & Black cable
cannot be sold after 1.1.06, or that it cannot be used (legally) on
new/extended/repaired/modified installations after that date? Are
there any other ramifications?

I was also told that any installation that uses both old and new
colours must be marked to draw attention to this fact. Can anyone
quote chapter and verse of this requirement, and is it retrospective
(I will be using harmonised colours cable to upgrade part of an
existing installation and will finish before 1.1.2005). Can anyone
see the sense in this particular requirement?

CRB

Al Reynolds

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Dec 2, 2004, 11:20:18 AM12/2/04
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"CRB" clive...@compuserve.com wrote:
> Having been told by TLC that Part P (specifically in relation to the
> harmonised colours) will not come into force until 1st January 2006
> (got it right this time), I have just been told by another electrical
> wholesaler that although Part P comes into force on 1st January 2005,
> the harmonised colour requirement does indeed only come into effect on
> 1st January 2006.

From: http://www.alertelectrical.com/harmonised_cable_colours.asp:

"The new (harmonised) colour cables may be used on
site from 31 March 2004. New installations or alterations
to existing installations may use either new or old colours,
but not both, from 31 March 2004 until 31 March 2006.
Only the new colours may be used after 31 March 2006."

So you can use either colours for a two year period. Any
alterations must be all in the same colour, but don't have to
be in the same colour as the original installation.

> This was confirmed by their supplier's
> representative who happened to be doing his rounds at the time.
> Assuming this to be true, does this mean only that Red & Black cable
> cannot be sold after 1.1.06, or that it cannot be used (legally) on
> new/extended/repaired/modified installations after that date? Are
> there any other ramifications?
>
> I was also told that any installation that uses both old and new
> colours must be marked to draw attention to this fact. Can anyone
> quote chapter and verse of this requirement, and is it retrospective
> (I will be using harmonised colours cable to upgrade part of an
> existing installation and will finish before 1.1.2005). Can anyone
> see the sense in this particular requirement?

I am doing exactly this at the moment. I am trying to only
use new colours where I am replacing complete circuits,
for the sake of simplicity, but this is not a requirement.

From: http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/Cable%20Colours%20Leaflet.pdf:

"Alterations or additions to a single-phase installation
do not require marking at the interface between old
and new cabling providing that they are correctly
coloured. However, a warning notice must be fixed
at the distribution board or consumer unit."

An example notice: http://www.bat400.com/images/warning-colours.gif

I suspect the clearest giveaway of wiring not having building
control approval will be houses that have mixed colours but
no sticker on the distribution board.

Al

dms1.go-plus.net

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Dec 2, 2004, 1:11:04 PM12/2/04
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Unlike part P there is a changeover time for the harmonisation for colours
(or the worst stupid idiot idea to hit the UK)

Red and black was phased out by most electrical wholesalers earlier this
year. How ever, on a new installation it is even now mandatory to use brown
and blue. Especially in the case of a brand new installation.

However it will be illegal to use the old colours after 1st January 2006. In
the meantime an amendment was made to BS7671 that a indelible label should
be fitted to installations warning persons of either the mixed colours or
that the new colours were installed on that particular installation.
(We have to put one of these on every installation)

Personally its like saying that everyone passing their test will be able to
drive on the other side of the road whilst those of us who have passed our
tests will gradually change over to the new system.
With regards to colours it is important to note that especially on 3 phase
brown black and also grey are LIVE!
God this country has gone mad!

With regards to Part P we strongly protest against it and out of 200,000
people in the trade there are not a lot for it. We have an e petition
against Part P and so far we have over 20,000 legit registered e-votes.

More info can be found on www.a2znorthants.co.uk

Regards John

"CRB" <clive...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
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coherers

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Dec 2, 2004, 11:20:45 AM12/2/04
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"CRB" <clive...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
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http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/cablecol.cfm


Stefek Zaba

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Dec 3, 2004, 5:34:40 AM12/3/04
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BigWallop wrote:
>
> Eurocrat ! :-)
>
Shucks, you say the nicest things ;-) However, I don't think I qualify
unless I'm paid for out of taxes; going on
employer's/the-Greater-IT-Industry's business (and on the company's tab)
makes me (I think) a corporate toadie ;-)

Stefek Zaba

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Dec 2, 2004, 8:12:35 PM12/2/04
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Andy Dingley wrote:

>
> All the other stupidities of this regulation pale into insignificance
> compared to the idea of a black phase.

Not the way I see it. Firstly, there's no direct link between the
ineffectual Part P and the adoption of Euro-harmonised colours. The
sleight of hand used to "justify" part P (misstating stats on fatalities
through fixed wiring) where the actual aim is bringing work out of the
informal sector is the bit that gets up my nose most, closely followed
by the disincentive created to doing the job right (trailing extension
leads and adds-to-existing-circs in place of sensible upgrades).

If you read the stuff on the IEE website about cable-colour
harmonisation, the reasoning's pretty clear: the UK is firmly out of
sync with the rest of the EU having argued to retain red-n-black for
fixed wiring when the original change to brown-n-blue went through about
20? years ago. Rather than face the arguments all over again as the
exemption expired, the change for single-phase to be consistent with
flex colours was accepted, for reasons of consistency both across the
Single Market and within the UK between flex and fixed cable.

Then you're left with "what to do about 3-phase". Again the material on
the IEE website from the CENELEC(?) consultation lays out the reasoning
pretty clearly: there was considerable variation across Europe, but with
a common theme of red and black in various mixtures, stripings, and the
like being dominant. CENELEC were just about to plump for brown, black,
black as the colours for the 3 phases (many, possibly most, countries
left identification of phases to test gear rather than cable core
colouring), and it was UK argument to preserve distinction among all
three phase colours which won the day; grey being one of the few
available colours which didn't clash dangerously with other countries'
conventions. The "black as legit phase colour" idea stood *no* chance of
being overturned, being dominant practice for at least one, often two or
three, phases.

But hey, I'm just back from a day in Brussels with the Commission - so
my allegiances are profoundly suspect anyway, right? ;-)

Stefek

Andy Dingley

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Dec 2, 2004, 7:19:54 PM12/2/04
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On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:11:04 -0000, "dms1.go-plus.net"
<dm...@dms1.go-plus.net> wrote:

>With regards to colours it is important to note that especially on 3 phase
>brown black and also grey are LIVE!

All the other stupidities of this regulation pale into insignificance


compared to the idea of a black phase.

--
Smert' spamionam

BigWallop

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Dec 2, 2004, 10:48:23 PM12/2/04
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"Stefek Zaba" <s-nilne...@zaba.com> wrote in message
news:D5CdnTq4FMh...@nildram.net...
> Andy Dingley wrote:
>
<<<snipped>>>

> three, phases.
>
> But hey, I'm just back from a day in Brussels with the Commission - so
> my allegiances are profoundly suspect anyway, right? ;-)
>
> Stefek
>

Eurocrat ! :-)


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Malc

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Dec 3, 2004, 4:54:01 PM12/3/04
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"Andy Dingley" <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote in message
news:58cvq0pjcqmhvofsp...@4ax.com...

Isn't that what the transpondians use in their plugs? White and black IIRC.

--
Malc


BigWallop

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Dec 3, 2004, 8:05:00 PM12/3/04
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"Stefek Zaba" <s-nilne...@zaba.com> wrote in message
news:JPidnRNuSq4...@nildram.net...

Oh, I thought you went as a ministers aide. So, your just a worker then.
:-))


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BigWallop

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Dec 3, 2004, 8:09:04 PM12/3/04
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"Malc" <malunsp...@lightindigooverthere.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Zf5sd.29494$up1....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Malc
>
>

What's all the fuss? The black is now blue. The yellow is now grey. The
red is now brown. White is normally used in control wire situations or,
properly marked, as a separate individual live or negative supply.

I think? :o) LOL

Steve Walker

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Dec 10, 2004, 9:02:56 AM12/10/04
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On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 01:09:04 GMT, BigWallop wrote:

> "Malc" <malunsp...@lightindigooverthere.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Zf5sd.29494$up1....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>
>> "Andy Dingley" <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote in message
>> news:58cvq0pjcqmhvofsp...@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:11:04 -0000, "dms1.go-plus.net"
>>> <dm...@dms1.go-plus.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >With regards to colours it is important to note that especially on 3
>> phase
>>> >brown black and also grey are LIVE!
>>>
>>> All the other stupidities of this regulation pale into insignificance
>>> compared to the idea of a black phase.
>>
>> Isn't that what the transpondians use in their plugs? White and black
> IIRC.
>>
>>
>> Malc
>>
>>
>
> What's all the fuss? The black is now blue. The yellow is now grey. The
> red is now brown. White is normally used in control wire situations or,
> properly marked, as a separate individual live or negative supply.
>
> I think? :o) LOL

And if you've got three phase, with both old and new cabling, you'll have a
blue that's phase in one part and neutral in the other and a black that's
neutral in one part and phase in another - it's all so easy :)

Steve W

Richard

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Dec 10, 2004, 9:46:58 AM12/10/04
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"Steve Walker" <st...@dropthis.theend.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ezy91o7wpvfh.1mkxrpblverd4$.dlg@40tude.net...

I wish I had shares in MEM fuses.......


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