Soldering

[weel...@gmail.com]

I am not great at soldering but was trying to solder 2 wires together (2core from a vacuum) which had a break (have ordered a replacement) and needed a temporary fix.
For some reason I had great difficulty getting the solder to flow, I used a paste flux but ended up just taping together.
Are some cores not copper wire although it was copper coloured. I have never had an issue before.

[Fredxx]

Plumbers flux paste will even work on steel. If it's copper coloured it
it's likely to be a copper alloy and should solder fine.

Old copper wire needs a lot of cleaning and can be a pig to solder to
but this would be wire covered in a dark oxide.

[Theo]

It could be some other metal, but seems unlikely if it was copper coloured.
Are you sure it wasn't enamelled copper? It could be if it was part of a
motor or transformer winding, but not likely for a flex.

Otherwise the usual things you need are heat, flux, and solder. If the
solder was melting happily and not solidifying but not sticking, suggests
the heat was OK. If the solder wasn't melting, or would only melt around
the tip of the iron, suggests heat or heat transfer is the problem.

Lack of flux often means the solder sticks to the iron but doesn't flow onto
the metal you're heating.

Lack of solder can be a reason for poor soldering performance because solder
itself is the way heat gets to the joint - common in SMD where someone is
trying to solder a tiny pin with a tiny bit, where what you need is a big
blob of solder to get the heat in there, and then solder wick away the
excess afterwards.

Theo

[alan_m]

Lead free solder is the spawn of the devil and may not give a nice
"clean" shiny joint unlike tin/lead 60/40 solder.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Paul]

The burning process that happens where the wire broke, fouls
the surfaces. Sometimes the wire is surrounded by a rubber
compound, and the fouling material is burned rubber.

I do not recommend acid core flux.

The rosin core solder, is more gentle than acid core flux, long term.
Even so, if you can manage it (with propanol as a cleaner), you
should try to remove excess flux in any case.

Even though acid core flux would likely clean up the wire enough
to make the solder joint, I would be afraid of what would happen
long term.

*******

You should not be soldering mains wires together,
because of the risk the wire gets really hot, makes
the solder melt and the wires separate. There are
various weaving procedures for making stranded wire
cables "hold together". You should only use procedures
that insurance companies approve.

If I was repairing the Hoover cord here, I would:

1) Pull grommet where cord passes through. That is
where the wire is broken. You have to compress the two-piece
grommet thingy, to get it to pull out of the chassis material.
It is the devil to compress.

2) Pull unbroken wire through where the grommet goes.
The grommet is a two piece assembly that "compresses"
onto the cord, as you shove the grommet back into the
chassis of the vacuum. It helps prevent the vacuum operator
from yanking the cord right out of the chassis (sparks and all).

3) Now you have a foot or a foot and a half of new cord
inside the vacuum. Strip the nice clean wires and consider
your next option.

4) If the wires are fitted with spade lugs or screw
terminations, you fit similar items to the fresh cord.
Primary fix-ment, is via compression or crimping of the
fastener to the stranded wire. Again, it's not really
recommended to be soldering the wire to the lug, but if
your crimper isn't very good, you might not have any
choice in terms of firming things up.

As long as the solder joint is not under stress or
mechanical vibration, probably nothing bad would
happen to it. It's preferably to just do a good job
with your crimper.

Some of these things, have two crimp sections on them.
One section holds the wire (part nearest the screw head).
The section further away can help secure the wire insulation.

https://media-dali.azureedge.net/2827/dali-spade-lugs-background.png

They can also have a plastic cover that goes over the crimps.
In these examples, the two on the left are the kinds I stock here.
And they must match the dimensions of the one being replaced.

https://www.powerandcables.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/pvc-insulated-crimp-terminals-min-1.jpg

Anyway, there's probably a lot more safety tips to go with
this subject, and maybe someone else can list more of them.

But suffice to say, doing this, in this way, is "not recommended".
This is a good effort... but if the house burns down, this
is what the insurance company will be looking for. Bodgery.
And wrapping that with electric tape? NO. Use shrink wrap,
as it is an alternative insulation method, and comes in a
variety of diameters. You can slide the shrink wrap up the wire,
do something sinful, then slide the shrink wrap over the
exposed bits. Having left sufficient diameter for the bodge.
Shrink wrap is better than electrical tape, but has its own
set of issues with the skills needed to do a good job. For example,
you can melt the 70C rated wire insulation the wrap sits on top of,
if you're careless.

https://knowhow.napaonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Solder__lead.jpg

This is not a proper weaving. It's imaginative though.

https://www.instructables.com/Soldering-Tutorial-Inline-Splicing/

This is an example of a proper splice. Someone here posted
a similar idea in this group, a while back. That's the only reason I have
seen the more exotic method. I've never done one with
this much attention to detail, but I still think you
should see what they have in mind. You start with significantly
more stripped wire, to be doing all the winds involved in a good
splice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Union_splice

Soldered wires need to be strain relieved, because where
the solder stopped flowing in the stranded wire, is a
stress point. The wire "wants to flex" right at the point
where the solder stops. The wire should not be allowed to
flex at that point. For example, you would not put a
soldered joint right inside the strain relief grommet on
the vacuum cleaner. That would be asking for "instant failure".

Sometimes, even fitting several layers of shrink wrap,
incites flexure failure. Right where the shrink wrap stops.

It's definitely a topic with a lot of "learn by doing"
and "smoke testing". And over the years, discovering
what were bad ideas, and what were successes. I can tell
you, there are *lots* of bad things you can do.

We had "soldering police" at work, who would check workmanship,
and I would never pass one of their examinations. They are
police, only because they were sent on course and trained at
it. You can't argue with those dickheads, it's a waste of time.
Just sit there and take your lumps. I do OK at soldering,
because I've done thousands of joints (think HeathKit :-) ).

There are even techniques for taking care of the tip of
your soldering iron. If you foul it with too much burnt
crap, it'll never work right again. You can't use it for
wood burning one morning and soldering the next. You have
to take care of those, and the modern tips are much better
fabricated than the ones fifty years ago.

Paul

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 26/01/2022 22:03, weel...@gmail.com wrote:

You trend to get a tough oxide later on copper wires. IIRC the suggested
solution is dipping in vinegar for a few minutes

Also lead free solder is crap.


--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

[Brian]

Some cheap ‘copper wire’ is actually copper plated aluminium. The copper is
so thin you can’t ( usually) solder it.

Assuming it is copper, use flux designed for electronic equipment, not
plumbers flux. A rub with steel wool may help. Twist the wires together,
heat, then apply solder. Don’t ‘carry’ solder on the iron. Let joint cool
without moving for a few minutes.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 27/01/2022 08:48, Brian wrote:
> weel...@gmail.com <weel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am not great at soldering but was trying to solder 2 wires together
>> (2core from a vacuum) which had a break (have ordered a replacement) and
>> needed a temporary fix.
>> For some reason I had great difficulty getting the solder to flow, I used
>> a paste flux but ended up just taping together.
>> Are some cores not copper wire although it was copper coloured. I have
>> never had an issue before.
>>
>
>
> Some cheap ‘copper wire’ is actually copper plated aluminium. The copper is
> so thin you can’t ( usually) solder it.
>

a monomolecular letr is good enough to solder to.

> Assuming it is copper, use flux designed for electronic equipment, not
> plumbers flux

In fact plumbers flux is a far more aggressive flux. Unfortunately it
rots the copper over time unless fully removed.

. A rub with steel wool may help. Twist the wires together,
> heat, then apply solder.

Impossible without some solder on the iron to transfer the heat.

Don’t ‘carry’ solder on the iron. Let joint cool
> without moving for a few minutes.
>

a few seconds.


--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

[jkn]

Slightly OT, but only last night I got out for the first time in 10+ years my
late father's Henley 'Solon' heavy duty soldering iron, and his tin of Fluxite!
I learned to solder with this iron, fifty years or so ago.

I was repairing a shower where a relay solder joint had failed.
The relay is of an open frame type and
one of the contacts is between a terminal stamped from the frame, and
the PCB. "Some bodger" (whistle...) had used an ordinary soldering iron
to make a repair last time (when the relay had failed),
but had not applied quite enough heat to make a fully solid
and lasting joint.

So this time I cleaned and tinned the frame terminal properly with Fluxite
and the heat capacity from the large iron. After that it was pretty simple to
get a proper solid joint on the PCB. I reinforced it with a few bits of
copper wire to be sure.

I was very pleased to find justification for keeping the iron after all this time...

J^n

[Andy Burns]

jkn wrote:

> last night I got out for the first time in 10+ years my
> late father's Henley 'Solon' heavy duty soldering iron, and his tin of Fluxite!
> I learned to solder with this iron, fifty years or so ago.

My dad's heavy duty iron was a Wolf, the heating element had burnt-out so the
mains cable had been chopped off, it was used on the gas hob back in the '70s
which gave a nice green flame ...

<https://ebay.co.uk/itm/165242781334>

[Fredxx]

On 27/01/2022 08:48, Brian wrote:

> weel...@gmail.com <weel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am not great at soldering but was trying to solder 2 wires together
>> (2core from a vacuum) which had a break (have ordered a replacement) and
>> needed a temporary fix.
>> For some reason I had great difficulty getting the solder to flow, I used
>> a paste flux but ended up just taping together.
>> Are some cores not copper wire although it was copper coloured. I have
>> never had an issue before.
>>
>
>
> Some cheap ‘copper wire’ is actually copper plated aluminium. The copper is
> so thin you can’t ( usually) solder it.

I haven't seen this type of wire for a very long time. I also assume
this is flexible cable BICBW

> Assuming it is copper, use flux designed for electronic equipment, not
> plumbers flux. A rub with steel wool may help. Twist the wires together,
> heat, then apply solder. Don’t ‘carry’ solder on the iron. Let joint cool
> without moving for a few minutes.

Hmm, I would say plumbers flux is more aggressive, but as others have
said the area affected needs to cleaned well afterwards to stop further
corrosion.

Electrical flux is more likely to be less aggressive but of the no-clean
variety.

[jkn]

Yeah, I've seen those too. The Solon has a wooden handle! Turned and heavily
painted black, for quite a while I presumed it was bakelite or similar.

I've just realised that of course it was Henley as in the "Henley Block"

<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125118831846>

They are useful thing to have around (for every ten years or so...). I used to
enjoy the sizzling the iron made when you dipped it in the fluxite. Dad had some
other, more evil-ly corrosive, raspberry pink flux, but I don't seem to have any
of that any more.

There was also some sort of solder paste or powder, which gratifyingly 'melted'
into blobs of shiny solder when you applied the iron.

All this was courtesy of Leyland Motors/British Leyland, I am sure...

[Andy Burns]

jkn wrote:

> The Solon has a wooden handle!

Dad also had a blacksmith's iron, looked like something the baby-eating bishop
of bath & wells would use ...

<https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265471222670>

[jkn]

Yeah, I always fancied getting one of those to try out with plumbing fixings...

[charles]

In article <j5htq4...@mid.individual.net>,

The first workshop course I went on had one of these as a result, but ours
had a channel on one side in which you could lay wires. 2nd item was a mini
AJ.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Owain Lastname]

On Thursday, 27 January 2022 at 14:40:04 UTC, Fredxx wrote:
> > Some cheap ‘copper wire’ is actually copper plated aluminium. The copper is
> > so thin you can’t ( usually) solder it.
> I haven't seen this type of wire for a very long time. I also assume
> this is flexible cable BICBW

Not on mains cable (at least in the UK), but pretty common on cheap low-voltage stuff

https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/79-0-2mm-cca-100m/speaker-cbl-79-0-20mm-cca-r-b/dp/CB14652?st=cca

Owain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ssuas0$brl$1...@dont-email.me>,

Fredxx <fre...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > Some cheap copper wire‘ is actually copper plated aluminium. The copper is
> > so thin you can‘t ( usually) solder it.

> I haven't seen this type of wire for a very long time. I also assume
> this is flexible cable BICBW

Noticed that the flex TLC sell as speaker flex is actually copper 'plated'
ally. Explains the lowish cost. Although most would want a decent low
resistance speaker cable.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine*

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <f54fe54f-e75d-489d...@googlegroups.com>,

Why? You need loads of heat on copper pipe. A blowlamp make far more sense.

--
*The beatings will continue until morale improves *

[jkn]

On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 3:19:01 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <f54fe54f-e75d-489d...@googlegroups.com>,
> jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 10:11:21 AM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
> > > jkn wrote:
> > >
> > > > The Solon has a wooden handle!
> > > Dad also had a blacksmith's iron, looked like something the baby-eating bishop
> > > of bath & wells would use ...
> > >
> > > <https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265471222670>
>
> > Yeah, I always fancied getting one of those to try out with plumbing fixings...
> Why? You need loads of heat on copper pipe. A blowlamp make far more sense.
>

Because I wanted to experiment with olde fashionede tools. I wasn't expecting
to use the result. I also have a paraffin-style blowlamp...

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <b57d3c96-fd53-4107...@googlegroups.com>,

jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> wrote:
> On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 3:19:01 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > In article <f54fe54f-e75d-489d...@googlegroups.com>,
> > jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 10:11:21 AM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
> > > > jkn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The Solon has a wooden handle!
> > > > Dad also had a blacksmith's iron, looked like something the baby-eating bishop
> > > > of bath & wells would use ...
> > > >
> > > > <https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265471222670>
> >
> > > Yeah, I always fancied getting one of those to try out with plumbing
> > > fixings...
> > Why? You need loads of heat on copper pipe. A blowlamp make far more
> > sense.
> >
> Because I wanted to experiment with olde fashionede tools. I wasn't
> expecting to use the result. I also have a paraffin-style blowlamp...

You'd need a large and very unwieldy soldering bolt heated up to red hot
to have any chance of soldering domestic copper tube. Simply no point
trying.

If you want something safer than a blowlamp the Antex Pipemaster is OK for
15mm, but very slow in use, as it need pre-heating. That takes 115w

--
*Why were the Indians here first? They had reservations.*

[Chris Green]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <b57d3c96-fd53-4107...@googlegroups.com>,
> jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 3:19:01 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> > > In article <f54fe54f-e75d-489d...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > jkn <jkn...@nicorp.f9.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 10:11:21 AM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
> > > > > jkn wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The Solon has a wooden handle!
> > > > > Dad also had a blacksmith's iron, looked like something the baby-eating bishop
> > > > > of bath & wells would use ...
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265471222670>
> > >
> > > > Yeah, I always fancied getting one of those to try out with plumbing
> > > > fixings...
> > > Why? You need loads of heat on copper pipe. A blowlamp make far more
> > > sense.
> > >
> > Because I wanted to experiment with olde fashionede tools. I wasn't
> > expecting to use the result. I also have a paraffin-style blowlamp...
>
> You'd need a large and very unwieldy soldering bolt heated up to red hot
> to have any chance of soldering domestic copper tube. Simply no point
> trying.
>
> If you want something safer than a blowlamp the Antex Pipemaster is OK for
> 15mm, but very slow in use, as it need pre-heating. That takes 115w
>

I have one of those (Antex Pipemaster), I never managed to get it to
do anything remotely useful.

--
Chris Green
·

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <920gci-8...@esprimo.zbmc.eu>,

The one I tried had to be preheated for ages and then just about worked.
But totally pointless if you have a blowlamp.

--
*Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired.