LPG or Night storage Aga?
Simon Langford
I know some people think Agas are great, some think they're antiquated
old heaps -- I'm not interested in stirring up that discussion. We've
decided we want an Aga, and that's that.
Having made that decision, we're not on mains Gas and cannot have a
flue in our kitchen for various reasons. So the choice is between
Electric or LPG (we already have a 2,000 litre LPG tank in the
garden).
The electric comes in "standard" or "night storage" models. We don't
have Economy7 at the moment, but if we were going to get an Electric
Aga, we'd probably go for night storage and get Economy7 set up. But
does anyone have a night-storage Aga? Are they really as hot in the
evening as they are in the morning?
Our other option is LPG with a power flue to take the gasses out
through the side of the house.
I'm a bit worried about running costs. From the Aga website, an
electric Aga will use 224 units per week, at around 3p per unit
(Economy7). So that's £6.72 per week.
LPG Aga's use 60 litres per week. We pay 20p/litre for our LPG, so
that's £12 per week -- much more than Economy7.
So it looks like the Economy7 option makes more sense. Of course the
actual unit is more expensive (and installation requires a
super-strong concrete plinth to bear the extra weight), and switching
to Economy7 will make our "normal" rate electricity a bit more
expensive.
So I don't know what to do. Has anyone got anything to say about
night-storage Aga's? Or anything else I should take into
consideration?
Thanks,
Simon.
fred
Langford <simonl...@lycos.co.uk> writes
>I'm a bit worried about running costs. From the Aga website, an
>electric Aga will use 224 units per week, at around 3p per unit
>(Economy7). So that's £6.72 per week.
>
>LPG Aga's use 60 litres per week. We pay 20p/litre for our LPG, so
>that's £12 per week -- much more than Economy7.
>
>So it looks like the Economy7 option makes more sense. Of course the
>actual unit is more expensive (and installation requires a
>super-strong concrete plinth to bear the extra weight), and switching
>to Economy7 will make our "normal" rate electricity a bit more
>expensive.
>
>So I don't know what to do. Has anyone got anything to say about
>night-storage Aga's? Or anything else I should take into
>consideration?
>
Is this just for cooking or are you using this for heating too? I've assumed
the latter but the comments probably valid for either.
I am always sceptical of claims made for electrical storage heating. In my
experience they optimistic at best and downright misleading at worst.
A quick calculation shows that your lpg is costing you 3.25p/kWh, which
seems on a par with your white meter electricity cost. Then take into
account that the lpg option will be controllable and therefore can be on
when needed and off when not, compared with the storage option where
your needs will have to be forecasted, leading to wastage of energy when a
full charge is made and little energy is taken and therefore eventually lost
to the surroundings.
Ok, the standard of insulation on the lpg model will be lower, leading to
higher losses, but I'd bet the controllability factor will lead to better
efficiency and a more useable product overall.
HTH
--
fred
Andrew Mawson
"Simon Langford" <simonl...@lycos.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e6810923.04072...@posting.google.com...
Simon,
Isn't it a bit like the Rolls Royce salesman who said "if you need to ask
the price you can't afford it"
(running costs in your case)
Andrew Mawson
Grunff
> So I don't know what to do. Has anyone got anything to say about
> night-storage Aga's? Or anything else I should take into
> consideration?
Only that they are Agas, not Aga's.
--
Grunff
Andy Hall
Langford) wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I know some people think Agas are great, some think they're antiquated
>old heaps -- I'm not interested in stirring up that discussion. We've
>decided we want an Aga, and that's that.
Good for you.
>
>Having made that decision, we're not on mains Gas and cannot have a
>flue in our kitchen for various reasons. So the choice is between
>Electric or LPG (we already have a 2,000 litre LPG tank in the
>garden).
>
>The electric comes in "standard" or "night storage" models. We don't
>have Economy7 at the moment, but if we were going to get an Electric
>Aga, we'd probably go for night storage and get Economy7 set up. But
>does anyone have a night-storage Aga? Are they really as hot in the
>evening as they are in the morning?
>
>Our other option is LPG with a power flue to take the gasses out
>through the side of the house.
>
>I'm a bit worried about running costs. From the Aga website, an
>electric Aga will use 224 units per week, at around 3p per unit
>(Economy7). So that's Ł6.72 per week.
>
>LPG Aga's use 60 litres per week. We pay 20p/litre for our LPG, so
>that's Ł12 per week -- much more than Economy7.
>
>So it looks like the Economy7 option makes more sense. Of course the
>actual unit is more expensive (and installation requires a
>super-strong concrete plinth to bear the extra weight), and switching
>to Economy7 will make our "normal" rate electricity a bit more
>expensive.
>
>So I don't know what to do. Has anyone got anything to say about
>night-storage Aga's? Or anything else I should take into
>consideration?
>
It's worth calling Aga-Rayburn's technical services in Telford and
asking them about the differences in the models - I have found them to
be very good.
I imagine that the difference between the two electric models is the
amount of insulation plus more thermal mass to store energy - -both
two oven models are quoted as using the same amount of electricity.
I would have been concerned that the night storage model might have
the problem of running out of stored heat late in the day if a lot of
cooking is done, but this is taken care of with the ability to draw
from the regular supply if needed.
I have the natural gas model and have found the energy figures quoted
to be quite pessimistic. THe implied energy use is about 3kW, but I
have measured it to be no more than about 700W.
It will depend to some extent on how you cook. For example, if you
use the boiling plate a lot, then you are going to use a lot more
energy. As you start to use the Aga as it is meant to be used and
using the ovens for more things, the energy use drops dramatically and
pretty much to steady state.
Typically a concrete plinth is needed anyway to raise the Aga to
typical worktop height. This is not a big deal.
Had you though about getting an oil model plus a small oil tank? I
suspect that this would be cheaper to run than LPG or electricity.
Don't forget anyway that during about 8 months or so of the year, the
Aga is going to be making a small contribution to heating the house,
so you can deduct that from your heating bill.
>Thanks,
>
>Simon.
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
John Daragon
> Hello,
>
> I know some people think Agas are great, some think they're antiquated
> old heaps -- I'm not interested in stirring up that discussion. We've
> decided we want an Aga, and that's that.
And why not ?
> Having made that decision, we're not on mains Gas and cannot have a
> flue in our kitchen for various reasons. So the choice is between
> Electric or LPG (we already have a 2,000 litre LPG tank in the
> garden).
>
> The electric comes in "standard" or "night storage" models. We don't
> have Economy7 at the moment, but if we were going to get an Electric
> Aga, we'd probably go for night storage and get Economy7 set up. But
> does anyone have a night-storage Aga? Are they really as hot in the
> evening as they are in the morning?
We have one. No, they're not. At least ours isn't. A kettle on the hot plate
at 11pm takes appreciably longer to boil than the first one in the morning.
Having said that, it's never actually run out of puff (as it were) and we
do cook quite a lot. We probably use the hotplates more than we should,
too.
We have no other means of cooking (except a largely redundant microwave and
a toaster). We do sometimes dig out an electric kettle at Christmas when
there are considerably more bodies about, but I think that's more
superstition than anything else.
> Our other option is LPG with a power flue to take the gasses out
> through the side of the house.
You do know that the electric one has a fan-assisted flue, too ? With a big
illuminated push-to-test, release-to-detonate button...
> I'm a bit worried about running costs. From the Aga website, an
> electric Aga will use 224 units per week, at around 3p per unit
> (Economy7). So that's £6.72 per week.
I must admit I've never measured ours. It runs at 7,5kW when it's on, but
I've never checked when it turns it self on or off. Once in a blue moon it
tops itself up in peak time.
>
> LPG Aga's use 60 litres per week. We pay 20p/litre for our LPG, so
> that's £12 per week -- much more than Economy7.
>
> So it looks like the Economy7 option makes more sense. Of course the
> actual unit is more expensive (and installation requires a
> super-strong concrete plinth to bear the extra weight), and switching
> to Economy7 will make our "normal" rate electricity a bit more
> expensive.
>
> So I don't know what to do. Has anyone got anything to say about
> night-storage Aga's? Or anything else I should take into
> consideration?
The night-storage ones can't be converted to other fuels, unlike all the
rest. And the insulation can be fragile, so moving them after a while can
more or less destroy them (we know this because we enquired about replacing
our with an oil one and were told that an electric one of our vintage is
essentially worthless...)
We already have a flue, and were looking at replacing the electric one
simply because we're a way out of town and a generator that'll run the Aga
(at 7.5kW) as well as the UPS for the computers is sort of large.
The electric one won't provide hot water, but it will, of course make the
kitchen (actually most of the ground floor) pretty cosy. We approach ours
with a sort of sliding gait to avoid treading on the cat.
jd
--
John Daragon argv[0] limited john@<antispam>argv.co.uk
Lambs Lawn Cottage, Staple Fitzpaine, Taunton TA3 5SL, UK
(house) 01460 234576 (office) 01460 234068
(mobile) 07836 576127 (fax) 01460 234069
Peter Parry
Langford) wrote:
>I know some people think Agas are great, some think they're antiquated
>old heaps -- I'm not interested in stirring up that discussion. We've
>decided we want an Aga, and that's that.
It will be an expensive learning process but that's your choice.
>The electric comes in "standard" or "night storage" models. We don't
>have Economy7 at the moment, but if we were going to get an Electric
>Aga, we'd probably go for night storage and get Economy7 set up. But
>does anyone have a night-storage Aga? Are they really as hot in the
>evening as they are in the morning?
No. They leak heat at over 1kW/hr when doing nothing. Apart from
the obvious problems of this in the summer it means that by the
evening they are not particularly effective. If you are an "Aga
cooker" and live off stew this may not be too important.
>I'm a bit worried about running costs. From the Aga website, an
>electric Aga will use 224 units per week, at around 3p per unit
>(Economy7). So that's £6.72 per week.
>
>LPG Aga's use 60 litres per week. We pay 20p/litre for our LPG, so
>that's £12 per week -- much more than Economy7.
LPG is an expensive fuel - however you need to look at your cooking
style - if it involves the thing eating peak rate electricity to make
up for the heat loss during the day the running cost of the electric
version increases considerably. They were not designed to be
particularly energy efficient.
>So I don't know what to do. Has anyone got anything to say about
>night-storage Aga's? Or anything else I should take into
>consideration?
Don't forget you still need a real cooker for the summer months when
the heat loss from the lump forces you to turn it off to avoid heat
stroke in the kitchen.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On 23 Jul 2004 05:51:12 -0700, simonl...@lycos.co.uk (Simon
>Langford) wrote:
>
.
>
>>The electric comes in "standard" or "night storage" models. We don't
>>have Economy7 at the moment, but if we were going to get an Electric
>>Aga, we'd probably go for night storage and get Economy7 set up. But
>>does anyone have a night-storage Aga? Are they really as hot in the
>>evening as they are in the morning?
>
>No. They leak heat at over 1kW/hr when doing nothing.
No they do not. It's around 700W heat input steady state. I've
measured it.
>Apart from
>the obvious problems of this in the summer it means that by the
>evening they are not particularly effective. If you are an "Aga
>cooker" and live off stew this may not be too important.
>
This is a nonsense statement. Cooking using Aga methods does not
imply living from stew at all. It is perfectly simple to learn
(takes a few days) and then you can cook anything that can be cooked
by other means, only somewhat better. Most people have no
difficulty at all with learning the techniques and the Aga is pretty
forgiving of mistakes. You have to be pretty incompetent as a cook
not to be able to use one effectively.
>
>LPG is an expensive fuel - however you need to look at your cooking
>style - if it involves the thing eating peak rate electricity to make
>up for the heat loss during the day the running cost of the electric
>version increases considerably. They were not designed to be
>particularly energy efficient.
The usage of the night storage and the standard electric versions are
listed as being the same which would imply that peak rate electricity
use is occasional.
>
>>So I don't know what to do. Has anyone got anything to say about
>>night-storage Aga's? Or anything else I should take into
>>consideration?
>
>Don't forget you still need a real cooker for the summer months when
>the heat loss from the lump forces you to turn it off to avoid heat
>stroke in the kitchen.
It is a real cooker in the same way that a modern tin monstrosity is -
just a rather better one.
Whether an alternate method of cooking is needed depends on
circumstances and the installation. If it is in a reasonably large
kitchen, there is no issue with overheating of the room. During
last year's hot spell, we turned ours off for a couple of days but
only because it happened to coincide with a service. Apart from
that it was no problem at all.
In terms of the comfort factor, it is a great deal more pleasant
preparing and cooking things with an Aga than on overpowered gas hobs
which bombard the user with several kW of heat. I measured
temperature rise in the kitchen when we had a gas hob. It would
typically climb by 5 degrees when cooking something requiring more
than one burner and 10 degrees when the fan oven was in use.
Both of these pieces of junk were consigned to the skip and there is
no longer the effect of getting overheated in the kitchen when
cooking.
I suspect that your information is somewhat out of date. The
insulation on current model Agas is substantially better than that of
earlier models so both energy consumption and heat release are nowhere
near that of older products.
James
It depends on your house. I grow up in an old stone farmhouse with a
coal, then LPG aga, and yep an aga did make the kitchen slightly too
warm in summer, but nothing like my new modern house gets with just the
sun to heat it now.
Word of warning [from an aga critic], Modern agas are expensive, and
really badly build. I use to sit on the lids of my mums first aga and
the enamel stayed intact even up to the day she replaced it with a new
LPG alternative. The new one had flimsy lids, and you just had to look
at it for the enamel to start flaking off.
In my view AGA has tried to cut costs by cutting standards.
As a parting note, Britain IS running out of gas. We will soon have to
import it, prices of all forms of fuel are likely to rise. Daily heating
a large slab of iron is only going to get more expensive in the future.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>>
>It depends on your house. I grow up in an old stone farmhouse with a
>coal, then LPG aga, and yep an aga did make the kitchen slightly too
>warm in summer, but nothing like my new modern house gets with just the
>sun to heat it now.
>
>Word of warning [from an aga critic], Modern agas are expensive, and
>really badly build.
???
I've looked at older models and haven't found the build quality to be
worse.
> I use to sit on the lids of my mums first aga and
>the enamel stayed intact even up to the day she replaced it with a new
>LPG alternative. The new one had flimsy lids, and you just had to look
>at it for the enamel to start flaking off.
Perhaps you were lighter as a child?
Then she should have asked for a replacement top. We have had no
problems at all.
>
>In my view AGA has tried to cut costs by cutting standards.
Not from our experience. Build quality and service has been
excellent.
>
>As a parting note, Britain IS running out of gas. We will soon have to
>import it, prices of all forms of fuel are likely to rise. Daily heating
>a large slab of iron is only going to get more expensive in the future.
>
I've found, by measurement, that we use less energy on cooking
compared with a gas hob and electric oven by some margin since
installing the Aga. During the autumn/winter/spring months, the
700W or so of heat contributes to the heating of the house, so the net
cost is reduced even more. With the hob and oven arrangement, the
windows would have to be opened to keep the temperature down when
cooking.
It is necessary to look at the whole picture when determining fuel
consumption. It is too simplistic to assume that because something is
heated continuously, that energy consumption is greater than an
alternative that releases huge amounts of heat into a room and that
then has to be dumped out of the window because the appliances are so
poorly insulated.
Simon Langford
> I have the natural gas model and have found the energy figures quoted
> to be quite pessimistic. THe implied energy use is about 3kW, but I
> have measured it to be no more than about 700W.
>
>
> Had you though about getting an oil model plus a small oil tank? I
> suspect that this would be cheaper to run than LPG or electricity.
Yes, we did consider that. Unfortunately it's not an option as oil
requires a chimney. There's no chimney at our chosen site and
installing a flue's no good either as the kitchen is a ground-floor
extension to the main 3-storey house, and the flue would need to rise
all the way to the roofline of the main house. (And it's a listed
building, so we'd probably not get permission anyhow.)
I'm leaning towards getting an LPG Aga, since the gas pipe is already
in the correct position and a power-flue ejects the gasses through a
small hole in the wall. To go electric, we'd have to get more
first-fix wiring installed, which means disturbing all kinds of other
rooms and decoration.
I don't know how much heat is "wasted" through the power-flue gas
version, and I really haven't got a clear picture of how much gas it
uses. The Aga website says 60 litres/week, but Andy's figures would
imply less than a quarter of that...
Peter Parry
wrote:
>I've found, by measurement, that we use less energy on cooking
>compared with a gas hob and electric oven by some margin since
>installing the Aga.
The Aga permanently leaks (depending upon age of the model) between
700W/hr and 1kW/hr. Total consumption on idle alone is therefore
between 16.8kWh/day and 24kWh/day or 6,132 to 8,760kW/hr per year.
If you use the heating plates this will increase somewhat.
Aga actually quote an average consumption for electric models of
220kW/hr a week or 11,440kW/hr per year. The real figure is likely
to be a little bit less as few people can bear to have them on in
summer months and their permanent heat leakage in the winter shaves a
kW/hr off the heating costs.
For gas the consumption figure is over double this, at 425kW/hr per
week or 22,100 kW/hr per year for the smallest double oven/no boiler
model.
The Benoît Lebot, International Energy Agency study of power
consumption measured an average for combined cookers/hobs of 457
kWh/year, for induction hobs of 337kWh/year and for ceramic hobs of
224kWh/year.
(An experimental investigation of cooking, refrigeration and drying
end-uses in 100 households N°564
Olivier Sidler, Cabinet SIDLER
Paul Waide, PW Consulting
Benoît Lebot, International Energy Agency)
Studies in New Zealand produced a figure for yearly cooking energy
load for a family of 4 of 500kW/hr per year - broadly in line with
the French study.
These figures give the electric Aga an energy consumption of over
twenty times greater than of an electric oven or forty times greater
if you have a natural gas or propane gas model. This is certainly in
line with my experience of them and I think it unlikely that Agas
figures will be so utterly wrong as to produce an error of this
magnitude.
>It is necessary to look at the whole picture when determining fuel
>consumption.
Indeed it does. Do you happen to know the energy rating of the Aga?
Despite being legally required to publish the information it doesn't
seem to be on ther web site and a quick call to their sales line
produced a reply of "I don't know" and a short speech on how Aga
buyers valued image over energy.
>It is too simplistic to assume that because something is
>heated continuously, that energy consumption is greater than an
>alternative that releases huge amounts of heat into a room and that
>then has to be dumped out of the window because the appliances are so
>poorly insulated.
If you cooked in an oven with no insulation whatsoever you could not
possibly come close to the total yearly consumption of an Aga.
Peter Parry
Langford) wrote:
>I don't know how much heat is "wasted" through the power-flue gas
>version, and I really haven't got a clear picture of how much gas it
>uses.
About 40 times more energy in a year than a modern conventional
cooker/hob.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On 26 Jul 2004 06:26:37 -0700, simonl...@lycos.co.uk (Simon
>Langford) wrote:
>
>
>>I don't know how much heat is "wasted" through the power-flue gas
>>version, and I really haven't got a clear picture of how much gas it
>>uses.
>
>About 40 times more energy in a year than a modern conventional
>cooker/hob.
That depends on mode of use. We use less energy overall with the
Aga than we did with the gas hob and electric oven
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:43:48 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
>wrote:
>
>
>>I've found, by measurement, that we use less energy on cooking
>>compared with a gas hob and electric oven by some margin since
>>installing the Aga.
>
>The Aga permanently leaks (depending upon age of the model) between
>700W/hr and 1kW/hr. Total consumption on idle alone is therefore
>between 16.8kWh/day and 24kWh/day or 6,132 to 8,760kW/hr per year.
>If you use the heating plates this will increase somewhat.
>
>Aga actually quote an average consumption for electric models of
>220kW/hr a week or 11,440kW/hr per year. The real figure is likely
>to be a little bit less as few people can bear to have them on in
>summer months and their permanent heat leakage in the winter shaves a
>kW/hr off the heating costs.
As I said, I have found their figures to be pessimistic, and your
suggestion that few people can bear to have them on in the summer
months is a generalisation which does not hold up in practice. I
mentioned that last year, we turned ours off only for the service
which coincided with the hot spell. If you have a reasonable large
kitchen it isn't a problem.
>
>These figures give the electric Aga an energy consumption of over
>twenty times greater than of an electric oven or forty times greater
>if you have a natural gas or propane gas model.
These are all averaged figures and apply to a different method of
cooking.
>This is certainly in
>line with my experience of them
Was this with an LPG or NG one? If you have only used an old model or
a coal one, then it does not relate to the current situation.
>and I think it unlikely that Agas
>figures will be so utterly wrong as to produce an error of this
>magnitude.
I don't think that they are utterly wrong. As I said, I believe that
they are being conservative.
>
>>It is necessary to look at the whole picture when determining fuel
>>consumption.
>
>Indeed it does. Do you happen to know the energy rating of the Aga?
It's on the appliance plate, but only states the maximum input rate,
which is common practice with modulating burners.
>Despite being legally required to publish the information it doesn't
>seem to be on ther web site and a quick call to their sales line
>produced a reply of "I don't know" and a short speech on how Aga
>buyers valued image over energy.
The technical department has that information and it is also on the
web site.
>
>>It is too simplistic to assume that because something is
>>heated continuously, that energy consumption is greater than an
>>alternative that releases huge amounts of heat into a room and that
>>then has to be dumped out of the window because the appliances are so
>>poorly insulated.
>
>If you cooked in an oven with no insulation whatsoever you could not
>possibly come close to the total yearly consumption of an Aga.
As I said, we are spending less on energy for cooking than with the
gas hob and electric oven that we threw in the skip.
One also has to consider that during the winter months the constant
low heat of the Aga can be usefully added to the space heating.
The multiple kilowatts (5-15) released by a hob/oven arrangement tends
to overheat the kitchen and the heat has to be dumped uselessly by
opening the window.
Peter Parry
wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:36:40 +0100, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
>wrote:
>>These figures give the electric Aga an energy consumption of over
>>twenty times greater than of an electric oven or forty times greater
>>if you have a natural gas or propane gas model.
>
>These are all averaged figures and apply to a different method of
>cooking.
They both apply to cooking for a family. The Aga figures apply to
the heat loss from the device when you are not cooking and the small
increase when you are. As they state "It is therefore possible to
predict the typical, weekly fuel consumption for each model, based on
average use." The average they use comprises a daily cycle of 22
hours quiescent and two hours cooking which seems quite reasonable.
If you don't use the device to cook at all the figures don't diminish
significantly so "cooking style" can have no possible bearing on most
of the running costs.
>Was this with an LPG or NG one? If you have only used an old model or
>a coal one, then it does not relate to the current situation.
The design has not significantly changed in 50 years, the electric
model uses a ceramic insulation and night storage heater technology
from 1963 rather than the vermiculite used for the last century.
Other than that it is a design which has been superseded everywhere
else in the world. Even the original manufacturers abandoned it as
obsolete more than half a century ago.
>>and I think it unlikely that Agas
>>figures will be so utterly wrong as to produce an error of this
>>magnitude.
>
>I don't think that they are utterly wrong. As I said, I believe that
>they are being conservative.
Out by a factor of 20 to 40 times is an interesting interpretation of
"conservative". The device is one for which it is very easy to
calculate energy consumption. The heat losses are known and more or
less fixed, the operating temperature is more or less fixed and in
any case variable only in timescales of days. The energy input is
pretty constant over time. I could believe an error of 20% or so if
they were being cautious but not 20 to 40 fold.
>>Indeed it does. Do you happen to know the energy rating of the Aga?
>
>It's on the appliance plate, but only states the maximum input rate,
>which is common practice with modulating burners.
I was referring to the new letter code which became mandatory 12
months ago this month.
>>Despite being legally required to publish the information it doesn't
>>seem to be on ther web site and a quick call to their sales line
>>produced a reply of "I don't know" and a short speech on how Aga
>>buyers valued image over energy.
>
>The technical department has that information and it is also on the
>web site.
I would appreciate it if you could tell me where if you have the
information to hand. Although they publish the fuel consumption
figures in some detail I couldn't find any mention of energy
efficiency rating letter code. The requirements are stated in
Statutory Instrument 2003 No. 751 The Energy Information (Household
Electric Ovens) Regulations 2003 although I suppose Aga might claim
not to be required to provide this information under para 3c as they
are "ovens without adjustable temperature control".
Looking at the SI they would otherwise be in the lowest class G
(least efficient) compared with most modern ovens which are A or B.
>>If you cooked in an oven with no insulation whatsoever you could not
>>possibly come close to the total yearly consumption of an Aga.
>
>As I said, we are spending less on energy for cooking than with the
>gas hob and electric oven that we threw in the skip.
As the annual quiescent heat loss alone from an Aga, assuming you do
no cooking at all with it, is 15 to 35 times greater than the average
energy use for cooking of a normal cooker/hob that is a considerable
achievement.
To use 17 to 24kW/hr of energy per day in conventional cooking is an
even greater achievement.
>One also has to consider that during the winter months the constant
>low heat of the Aga can be usefully added to the space heating.
>The multiple kilowatts (5-15) released by a hob/oven arrangement tends
>to overheat the kitchen
Other than for short periods, such as using a Wok (which the Aga is
useless for), or getting water up to temperature no cooker/hob
combination uses anything like 5kW, much less 15kW.
Ian Stirling
> Hello,
>
> I know some people think Agas are great, some think they're antiquated
> old heaps -- I'm not interested in stirring up that discussion. We've
> decided we want an Aga, and that's that.
I wonder why they haven't done a "proper" one.
It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to come up with an oven
that comes up to temperature in seconds, without overshooting,
and stays at temperature until the object is removed from it.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:22:58 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:36:40 +0100, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
>>wrote:
>
>>>These figures give the electric Aga an energy consumption of over
>>>twenty times greater than of an electric oven or forty times greater
>>>if you have a natural gas or propane gas model.
>>
>>These are all averaged figures and apply to a different method of
>>cooking.
>
>They both apply to cooking for a family.
The cooking methods are different so the comparison on a simple basis
is not valid.
>
>>Was this with an LPG or NG one? If you have only used an old model or
>>a coal one, then it does not relate to the current situation.
>
>The design has not significantly changed in 50 years
I suggest looking at the various models on the Aga web site.
>Other than that it is a design which has been superseded everywhere
>else in the world.
Superseded is not an appropriate word since it is a different
technology. The introduction of glitzy new things with lots of
knobs does not negate the validity of what is already there.
>
>>>and I think it unlikely that Agas
>>>figures will be so utterly wrong as to produce an error of this
>>>magnitude.
>>
>>I don't think that they are utterly wrong. As I said, I believe that
>>they are being conservative.
>
>Out by a factor of 20 to 40 times is an interesting interpretation of
>"conservative". The device is one for which it is very easy to
>calculate energy consumption.
Really?
I found that measuring was far more useful.
>
>>>Indeed it does. Do you happen to know the energy rating of the Aga?
>>
>>It's on the appliance plate, but only states the maximum input rate,
>>which is common practice with modulating burners.
>
>I was referring to the new letter code which became mandatory 12
>months ago this month.
Mine has the maximum input rate stated for each country.
>
>>>Despite being legally required to publish the information it doesn't
>>>seem to be on ther web site and a quick call to their sales line
>>>produced a reply of "I don't know" and a short speech on how Aga
>>>buyers valued image over energy.
>>
>>The technical department has that information and it is also on the
>>web site.
>
>I would appreciate it if you could tell me where if you have the
>information to hand. Although they publish the fuel consumption
>figures in some detail I couldn't find any mention of energy
>efficiency rating letter code. The requirements are stated in
>Statutory Instrument 2003 No. 751 The Energy Information (Household
>Electric Ovens) Regulations 2003 although I suppose Aga might claim
>not to be required to provide this information under para 3c as they
>are "ovens without adjustable temperature control".
That could be, but it's not really relevant.
>
>Looking at the SI they would otherwise be in the lowest class G
>(least efficient) compared with most modern ovens which are A or B.
That would depend on the methodology for measurement and use.
As I already repeatedly said, the complete picture including useful
release of heat into the space during most of the year, has to be
considered. I would be surprised if this is considered in this SI,
thus making it inappropriate.
>
>>>If you cooked in an oven with no insulation whatsoever you could not
>>>possibly come close to the total yearly consumption of an Aga.
>>
>>As I said, we are spending less on energy for cooking than with the
>>gas hob and electric oven that we threw in the skip.
>
>As the annual quiescent heat loss alone from an Aga, assuming you do
>no cooking at all with it, is 15 to 35 times greater than the average
>energy use for cooking of a normal cooker/hob that is a considerable
>achievement.
>
>To use 17 to 24kW/hr of energy per day in conventional cooking is an
>even greater achievement.
With ovens rated at 3-4kW and hobs at 3kW per burner......
The comparison that I made was with cost, not single fuel energy
consumption.
>
>>One also has to consider that during the winter months the constant
>>low heat of the Aga can be usefully added to the space heating.
>>The multiple kilowatts (5-15) released by a hob/oven arrangement tends
>>to overheat the kitchen
>
>Other than for short periods, such as using a Wok (which the Aga is
>useless for)
Only if you don't know how.
>, or getting water up to temperature no cooker/hob
>combination uses anything like 5kW, much less 15kW.
It certainly does.
Run 2 burners at 3kW and 2 at 1.5kW plus an oven at 4kW and you are at
13kW. Most of this needs to be dumped by opening the window unless
you have a very large kitchen.
Andy Hall
wrote:
They have done a proper one.
It would take a great deal of heat to bring a mass of several hundred
kg up to 250 degrees plus. As it is, with a gas one burning at
maximum input rate around 5kW, it takes approx. 3hrs for the
thermometer to enter the operating band.
Coming up to heat rapidly was the great claim of fan ovens. This is
partly the case, but it leads to problems such as unnevenness of
temperature and horrendous drying out of food.
Toby
> Peter Parry wrote:
>> Andy Hall wrote:
>>> Peter Parry wrote:
etc.
>>> These are all averaged figures and apply to a different method of
>>> cooking.
>> They both apply to cooking for a family.
>
> The cooking methods are different so the comparison on a simple basis
> is not valid.
It's a black box test, so is entirely valid, how much energy is required to
turn provisions into meals?
>> , or getting water up to temperature no cooker/hob
>> combination uses anything like 5kW, much less 15kW.
>
> It certainly does.
>
> Run 2 burners at 3kW and 2 at 1.5kW plus an oven at 4kW and you are at
> 13kW.
That's Spinal Tap cooking with everything turned up to 11 - all the time.
Wouldn't be like that for my porridge / toast / grapefruit breakfast where I
don't need vast energy usage. Not needed when away M-F 9 to 5 either.
> Most of this needs to be dumped by opening the window unless
> you have a very large kitchen.
So how is it different with an Aga?
Consider an Aga without the ovens.... i.e. the Aga boiler. With the enhanced
efficiency targets for domestic boilers on the way, will the humble Aga be
able to compete? Many factors count against it, my guess is it would be
contrary to part L if installed as the primary source of space heating.
To the OP, if you are still there, the LPG option would only be viable if
you can accommodate a fixed storage tank, cylinders at this rate will be
expensive.
--
Toby.
'One day son, all this will be finished'
Andy Hall
<tobynew...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
.
>
>It's a black box test, so is entirely valid, how much energy is required to
>turn provisions into meals?
No, you don't understand the issues involved. Since the cooking
methods are completely different, you can't make that comparison.
>
>>> , or getting water up to temperature no cooker/hob
>>> combination uses anything like 5kW, much less 15kW.
>>
>> It certainly does.
>>
>> Run 2 burners at 3kW and 2 at 1.5kW plus an oven at 4kW and you are at
>> 13kW.
>
>That's Spinal Tap cooking with everything turned up to 11 - all the time.
>Wouldn't be like that for my porridge / toast / grapefruit breakfast where I
>don't need vast energy usage.
I wasn't talking about that.
>Not needed when away M-F 9 to 5 either.
or that. We have a household of four and people are there almost
the whole time. I haven't tried to suggest that an Aga is
appropriate for everybody, although having instantly available ovens
is advantageous when people arrive wanting to be fed quickly.
>
>> Most of this needs to be dumped by opening the window unless
>> you have a very large kitchen.
>
>So how is it different with an Aga?
Apart from the quite short periods of having a lid open to boil
something, the heat output is the quiescent 700W or so. Because of
the cooking techniques, much more of the cooking process is done using
the ovens and so the amount of time that lids are open is much shorter
than the on time with a gas hob.
>
>Consider an Aga without the ovens.... i.e. the Aga boiler. With the enhanced
>efficiency targets for domestic boilers on the way, will the humble Aga be
>able to compete?
>Many factors count against it, my guess is it would be
>contrary to part L if installed as the primary source of space heating.
I am afraid you are completely misinformed. There is an optional
small boiler which can be used for domestic hot water heating. It
does not have sufficient capacity to provide the complete space
heating for a house.
My point was simply that 700W or so of continuous heat can be usefully
dissipated in the kitchen during the heating months of the year.
The 10-15kW from a fan oven and gas hob arrangement probably can't,
meaning that people have to open windows and turn on massive extractor
hoods, wasting huge amounts of energy through the vent.
We have an extractor hood, but in reality it is very little used -
typically in the brief periods when onions or similar are being
sauteed. The rest of the time, cooking vapours go up through the
flue.
use...@isbd.co.uk
>
> >, or getting water up to temperature no cooker/hob
> >combination uses anything like 5kW, much less 15kW.
>
> It certainly does.
>
> Run 2 burners at 3kW and 2 at 1.5kW plus an oven at 4kW and you are at
> 13kW. Most of this needs to be dumped by opening the window unless
> you have a very large kitchen.
>
oven at the same time is negligable. We have a six burner hob but the
reason for having six burners is not to be able to have them all on at
the same time it's because they are different to allow different types
of cooking.
An oven won't take 4kW continuously once it's up to heat and also most
modern ovens are capable of running on a 13 amp plug so must only be
about 3kW.
I would also point out that an Aga couldn't possibly manage to provide
the equivalent of our six separately controllable burners if we ever
did happen to have them all on at the same time.
--
Chris Green
Andy Hall
>The number of times that we have four burners on full blast and the
>oven at the same time is negligable.
Probably, but next time you cook a large meal, make some measurements
of use. You'll be surprised.
> We have a six burner hob but the
>reason for having six burners is not to be able to have them all on at
>the same time it's because they are different to allow different types
>of cooking.
The Aga doesn't need to have that arrangement. There are two large
plates, each of which will take 3 or more pans. Controllability is
far superior to gas hobs because the pans can simply be moved from
area to area and for very low heat to a warming area over two of the
ovens. It's virtually impossible to boil things over, including
milk, you can melt chocolate directly without needing a basin and
water, and there is no messing around with vey low flames which tend
to go out.
Having said that, as I have already pointed out, the cooking methods
are different.
>
>An oven won't take 4kW continuously once it's up to heat and also most
>modern ovens are capable of running on a 13 amp plug so must only be
>about 3kW.
A fan oven with glass fronted door leaks huge amounts of heat into the
room when it's ruining (sorry running). Again, make some
measurements and see what is used.
>
>I would also point out that an Aga couldn't possibly manage to provide
>the equivalent of our six separately controllable burners if we ever
>did happen to have them all on at the same time.
I already explained that. Actually there is far more
controllability. It just isn't done with a set of knobs.
Peter Parry
wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:14:46 +0100, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
>wrote:
>>They both apply to cooking for a family.
>
>The cooking methods are different so the comparison on a simple basis
>is not valid.
The cooking methods may differ but the simple fact is that cooking
for a family of four for one year using conventional cooking
equipment will consume about 500kW/hr of energy.
Cooking for the same family on an Aga will consume 11,000kW/hr if an
electric one is used or 22,000kW/hr if a gas one is being used.
I am not aware of any variations in cooking methods which can account
for such a difference.
>>The design has not significantly changed in 50 years
>
>I suggest looking at the various models on the Aga web site.
The last redesign of the Model GC, GCB, GE, and GEB (Balanced Flue)
was in 1968. After the disastrous sales performance of the 1975
electric EL2 cooker it was repackaged as the AEC2 and AEC4 in 1985.
Aga are not innovators - indeed they brand themselves as quite the
opposite.
>>Other than that it is a design which has been superseded everywhere
>>else in the world.
>
>Superseded is not an appropriate word since it is a different
>technology. The introduction of glitzy new things with lots of
>knobs does not negate the validity of what is already there.
Some people still cook on open hearths using dried animal dung as
fuel. It imparts a certain piquancy to the food and is different
technology.
>>Out by a factor of 20 to 40 times is an interesting interpretation of
>>"conservative". The device is one for which it is very easy to
>>calculate energy consumption.
>
>Really?
Well so Aga claim. It appears to be a reasonable claim. If you look
at only the quiescent state the heat losses are known and consistent,
the temperature to be maintained is consistent. From this the energy
required to maintain this steady state can easily be calculated.
Any cooking you do can only increase this energy requirement, nothing
will reduce it (other than turning the thing off).
>I found that measuring was far more useful.
I'm sure Aga did measure the fuel consumption and find it implausible
that they are wildly out on their stated figures.
>>Looking at the SI they would otherwise be in the lowest class G
>>(least efficient) compared with most modern ovens which are A or B.
>
>That would depend on the methodology for measurement and use.
"Energy consumption in kWh for the heating function(s) (conventional
and/or the forced air convection) of ovens based on standard load
determined in accordance with the test procedures of the harmonised
standard." As it's a bit of Eurocracy it may well be as meaningless
as you suggest.
>As I already repeatedly said, the complete picture including useful
>release of heat into the space during most of the year, has to be
>considered. I would be surprised if this is considered in this SI,
>thus making it inappropriate.
It isn't, but who wants a kW heater in a kitchen 24 hours a day 365
days a year? Even in January I don't need a kW heater going in the
kitchen at 3.00AM.
>>As the annual quiescent heat loss alone from an Aga, assuming you do
>>no cooking at all with it, is 15 to 35 times greater than the average
>>energy use for cooking of a normal cooker/hob that is a considerable
>>achievement.
>The comparison that I made was with cost, not single fuel energy
>consumption.
If you use a natural gas Aga the cost will be 40 times greater than
if you use a conventional gas cooker/hob as there is no variable fuel
pricing involved. If you use an electric one and do not ever need to
use the boost then it will be approximately 7 times the cost as off
peak electricity is about 1/3-1/2 the price of peak rate electricity.
From this you need to subtract the useful heat contribution the heat
loss from the Aga makes during heating hours in winter months but
this will not significantly affect the year round cost differential.
I've stuck to kW/hr simply to give a direct comparison between energy
usage. Ultimately that translates into cost so comparing a natural
gas fired conventional cooker to a propane fired Aga would increase
the difference to somewhat greater than 40 fold as LPG is more
expensive than natural gas.
>Run 2 burners at 3kW and 2 at 1.5kW plus an oven at 4kW and you are at
>13kW.
I cannot recall ever using all four burners at maximum output for any
length of time over 5 minutes. Ovens are rarely rated at 4kW but
assuming two large double ovens each at 2kW they don't consume
anything like this once up to temperature. Don't forget that modern
ovens do have something the Aga lacks - controls.
Peter Parry
wrote:
>A fan oven with glass fronted door leaks huge amounts of heat into the
>room when it's ruining (sorry running). Again, make some
>measurements and see what is used.
With the oven at 220deg C I can comfortably hold my hand on the door
of the glass fronted oven so I'm not convinced about leaking huge
amounts of heat. Yesterday it was on almost all day while I was
making a lot of bread and neither the kitchen window nor door needed
to be opened.
>I already explained that. Actually there is far more
>controllability. It just isn't done with a set of knobs.
Working on the same principle as the heating system in the C130 - the
front was at 40deg and the rear at 0deg so the average was 20 and
everyone was comfortable?
Andy Hall
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> writes:
>>On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:58:31 +0100, "Toby"
>><tobynew...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>..
>>>
>>>It's a black box test, so is entirely valid, how much energy is required to
>>>turn provisions into meals?
>>
>>No, you don't understand the issues involved. Since the cooking
>>methods are completely different, you can't make that comparison.
>
>Of course he can. And the "cooking methods" are not *that* different.
Different enough.
>
>>The 10-15kW from a fan oven and gas hob arrangement probably can't,
>>meaning that people have to open windows and turn on massive extractor
>>hoods, wasting huge amounts of energy through the vent.
>
>For a few minutes a day. Not 24/7.
That depends on what you do.
The main point, in any case, that I made was that I have found by
measurement that our energy costs for cooking are less, which was part
of the original question.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>
>I am not aware of any variations in cooking methods which can account
>for such a difference.
I think that that is the real point.
>Aga are not innovators - indeed they brand themselves as quite the
>opposite.
As I pointed out, technology does not become invalidated with age.
After all, we still use wheels.
>
>Well so Aga claim. It appears to be a reasonable claim. If you look
>at only the quiescent state the heat losses are known and consistent,
>the temperature to be maintained is consistent. From this the energy
>required to maintain this steady state can easily be calculated.
I've measured the consumption to be 700W on mine. This is somewhat
more meaningful that calculation.
>
>Any cooking you do can only increase this energy requirement, nothing
>will reduce it (other than turning the thing off).
>
>>I found that measuring was far more useful.
>
>I'm sure Aga did measure the fuel consumption and find it implausible
>that they are wildly out on their stated figures.
They are quoting typical figures. I have no idea how that is done
and I don't particularly care. I know what I measured.
>
>>>Looking at the SI they would otherwise be in the lowest class G
>>>(least efficient) compared with most modern ovens which are A or B.
>>
>>That would depend on the methodology for measurement and use.
>
>"Energy consumption in kWh for the heating function(s) (conventional
>and/or the forced air convection) of ovens based on standard load
>determined in accordance with the test procedures of the harmonised
>standard." As it's a bit of Eurocracy it may well be as meaningless
>as you suggest.
Exactly. The methodology assumes a uniform type of product, and
simply doesn't apply.
>
>>As I already repeatedly said, the complete picture including useful
>>release of heat into the space during most of the year, has to be
>>considered. I would be surprised if this is considered in this SI,
>>thus making it inappropriate.
>
>It isn't, but who wants a kW heater in a kitchen 24 hours a day 365
>days a year? Even in January I don't need a kW heater going in the
>kitchen at 3.00AM.
That's up to you.
It's actually about 700W, as I have said about 16 times.. During
the heating months, we simply leave the kitchen door open and the heat
contributes to the rest of the house. Using a night setback on
temperature is an accepted and effective way of heating a space.
>
>>>As the annual quiescent heat loss alone from an Aga, assuming you do
>>>no cooking at all with it, is 15 to 35 times greater than the average
>>>energy use for cooking of a normal cooker/hob that is a considerable
>>>achievement.
>
>>The comparison that I made was with cost, not single fuel energy
>>consumption.
>
>If you use a natural gas Aga the cost will be 40 times greater than
>if you use a conventional gas cooker/hob as there is no variable fuel
>pricing involved. If you use an electric one and do not ever need to
>use the boost then it will be approximately 7 times the cost as off
>peak electricity is about 1/3-1/2 the price of peak rate electricity.
I wouldn't use a conventional gas oven. The things are even worse
than electric fan ovens.
>
>From this you need to subtract the useful heat contribution the heat
>loss from the Aga makes during heating hours in winter months but
>this will not significantly affect the year round cost differential.
Of course it does. During 8 months or so of the year, the heat
output contributes to the space heating, so in effect the overall
energy use is only a third when that is taken into account
>
>I've stuck to kW/hr simply to give a direct comparison between energy
>usage. Ultimately that translates into cost so comparing a natural
>gas fired conventional cooker to a propane fired Aga would increase
>the difference to somewhat greater than 40 fold as LPG is more
>expensive than natural gas.
>
That's a red herring, because you also have to account for the space
heating effect. If that is by the same fuel then it can be
subtracted.
One also has to consider that we are talking about 700W here, in the
context of many kW used in heating a house generally, so context is
also important.
>>Run 2 burners at 3kW and 2 at 1.5kW plus an oven at 4kW and you are at
>>13kW.
>
>I cannot recall ever using all four burners at maximum output for any
>length of time over 5 minutes. Ovens are rarely rated at 4kW but
>assuming two large double ovens each at 2kW they don't consume
>anything like this once up to temperature.
Measure how much energy you use when you next cook a complex meal and
you will be surprised how much is used.
> Don't forget that modern
>ovens do have something the Aga lacks - controls.
Actually the controls are far better than on glitzy appliances.
The utensils can be moved easily around on the plates and in the
ovens.
Unless you have used a modern gas/electric/oil Aga you wouldn't know
about that.
Peter Parry
wrote:
>I wonder why they haven't done a "proper" one.
They have - the Legacy and 6-4 series. They even include a fan oven
yet somehow can still produce the "aga taste". "With six high
quality burners, including a powerful 6kW wok burner and a uniquely
variable 5kW burner, a conventional oven, a fully programmable fan
oven, a simmering oven and a separate, state of the art Ceramic
Grill, the Aga Six-Four Series is one of the finest cookers
available"
Andy Hall
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> writes:
>
>[22 lines snipped]
>
>>Coming up to heat rapidly was the great claim of fan ovens. This is
>>partly the case, but it leads to problems such as unnevenness of
>>temperature and horrendous drying out of food.
>
>Bunk.
Nope. We had a Neff oven before and some neighbours have (I believe)
a Bosch.
Both were/are horrendous for drying out food and generally poor
results. The Neff went on the skip a couple of years ago. I
suspect that the neighbour's fan oven will be going fairly shortly.
use...@isbd.co.uk
> On 27 Jul 2004 08:00:46 GMT, use...@isbd.co.uk wrote:
>
>
> >The number of times that we have four burners on full blast and the
> >oven at the same time is negligable.
>
> Probably, but next time you cook a large meal, make some measurements
> of use. You'll be surprised.
>
use or at full power. For example we have a wok burner, if we're
having a wok meal then it's the *only* burner used (and the oven isn't
used either). I can assure yo that a wok meal can be a 'large meal'.
> > We have a six burner hob but the
> >reason for having six burners is not to be able to have them all on at
> >the same time it's because they are different to allow different types
> >of cooking.
>
> The Aga doesn't need to have that arrangement. There are two large
> plates, each of which will take 3 or more pans. Controllability is
> far superior to gas hobs because the pans can simply be moved from
> area to area and for very low heat to a warming area over two of the
> ovens. It's virtually impossible to boil things over, including
> milk, you can melt chocolate directly without needing a basin and
> water, and there is no messing around with vey low flames which tend
> to go out.
>
Not what we are arguing about, you were quoting the power input of a
conventional hob by adding up all the ring powers. I pointed out that
one very rarely (if ever) uses them all at the same time. Your points
above about the ga may or may not be true but have absolutely nothing
to do with how much a conventional hob consumes.
> Having said that, as I have already pointed out, the cooking methods
> are different.
>
Exactly - so what's it got to do with conventional hob power
consumption?
>
> >
> >An oven won't take 4kW continuously once it's up to heat and also most
> >modern ovens are capable of running on a 13 amp plug so must only be
> >about 3kW.
>
> A fan oven with glass fronted door leaks huge amounts of heat into the
> room when it's ruining (sorry running). Again, make some
> measurements and see what is used.
>
You quoted 5kW (or was it 4kW?) for the oven, I was just pointing out
that most conventional ovens can't possibly use that amount of power.
When our (glass fronted) oven is up to heat it spends more time off
than on. It's rated at 2.4kW (pretty typical nowadays) thus the power
consumption is only around 1kW or so when cooking, not your 4kW
figure.
--
Chris Green
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:25:03 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
>wrote:
>
>
>>A fan oven with glass fronted door leaks huge amounts of heat into the
>>room when it's ruining (sorry running). Again, make some
>>measurements and see what is used.
>
>With the oven at 220deg C I can comfortably hold my hand on the door
>of the glass fronted oven so I'm not convinced about leaking huge
>amounts of heat. Yesterday it was on almost all day while I was
>making a lot of bread and neither the kitchen window nor door needed
>to be opened.
I was talking about a Neff that we used to have that one certainly
could not have done that on. It can't be on my neighbour's (Bosch?)
either.
>
>>I already explained that. Actually there is far more
>>controllability. It just isn't done with a set of knobs.
>
>Working on the same principle as the heating system in the C130 - the
>front was at 40deg and the rear at 0deg so the average was 20 and
>everyone was comfortable?
That was before my time.
The principles of operation and choice of temperatures on the Aga are
simple and effective.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On 26 Jul 2004 23:22:33 GMT, Ian Stirling <ro...@mauve.demon.co.uk>
A packaging exercise.
They also prostituted themselves on a rather cheap and nasty
electric/gas range which has now been withdrawn, I believe.
use...@isbd.co.uk
> >With the oven at 220deg C I can comfortably hold my hand on the door
> >of the glass fronted oven so I'm not convinced about leaking huge
> >amounts of heat. Yesterday it was on almost all day while I was
> >making a lot of bread and neither the kitchen window nor door needed
> >to be opened.
>
> I was talking about a Neff that we used to have that one certainly
> could not have done that on. It can't be on my neighbour's (Bosch?)
> either.
>
are pretty poor as regards performance. Nowhere near as good (we used
to have a Neff) as our much cheaper Creda.
--
Chris Green
Peter Parry
wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:31:21 +0100, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
>wrote:
>>I am not aware of any variations in cooking methods which can account
>>for such a difference.
>
>I think that that is the real point.
What on earth is it in "Aga cooking" that makes them use 40 times
more fuel than normal cookers?
>As I pointed out, technology does not become invalidated with age.
>
>After all, we still use wheels.
But not stone or wooden ones.
>>Well so Aga claim. It appears to be a reasonable claim. If you look
>>at only the quiescent state the heat losses are known and consistent,
>>the temperature to be maintained is consistent. From this the energy
>>required to maintain this steady state can easily be calculated.
>
>I've measured the consumption to be 700W on mine. This is somewhat
>more meaningful that calculation.
OK - so on your measured figure the energy used is 6,000kW/hr per
year. This is still 12 times more than a conventional cooker.
>>I'm sure Aga did measure the fuel consumption and find it implausible
>>that they are wildly out on their stated figures.
>
>They are quoting typical figures. I have no idea how that is done
Assuming two hours cooking a day and 22 hours quiescent.
>Measure how much energy you use when you next cook a complex meal and
>you will be surprised how much is used.
About 500kW/hr per year, against 6,000/11,000/22,000kW/hr per year
using an Aga.
>Unless you have used a modern gas/electric/oil Aga you wouldn't know
>about that.
Define "modern". The last Aga redesign was in 1956 (for the De Luxe
Model C and CB Cookers) and 1964 for the oil fired OC and OCB Cookers
(although a different burner was used post 1995).
Jerry Built
> Andy Hall writes:
> > We had a Neff oven before and some neighbours have (I believe)
> > a Bosch.
> >
> >Both were/are horrendous for drying out food and generally poor
> >results.
>
Yup, complete bunkum, unless the oven is broken. I've a cheap
"Whirlpool", I think, fan oven, and it's cooking performance
is fine. It's quicker than a "conventional" oven, too. My only
gripe with "fitted" ovens is that cheap ones have the grills
*inside*, and the door is hinged at the bottom, rather than
the side. This is a major PITA. I also have a Rayburn, which
heats the water. I use it for cooking during the cooler times
of the year. It's OK if it's ready for the job at the time.
It's very nice for drying things on, too. Must not forget
about food inside, though, or leave paper cased cartridges in.
J.B.
Jerry Built
> Andy Hall wrote:
> > > I am not aware of any variations in cooking methods which can
> > > account for such a difference.
> >
> >I think that that is the real point.
>
> What on earth is it in "Aga cooking" that makes them use 40 times
> more fuel than normal cookers?
They don't[1].
[1] *During the actual cooking period*!
J.B.
Simon Langford
> To the OP, if you are still there, the LPG option would only be viable if
> you can accommodate a fixed storage tank, cylinders at this rate will be
> expensive.
Yup - still here. No problem regarding the tank - we have a 2,000
litre tank in the garden. So, at 60 litres per week, that would
supply an LPG Aga for over 7 months. OK, so we need LPG for central
heating and hot water too - but hopefully a little less for central
heating since the Aga will heat about 50% of the ground floor.
Simon.
Andy Hall
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> wrote:
>> On 27 Jul 2004 08:00:46 GMT, use...@isbd.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>
>> >The number of times that we have four burners on full blast and the
>> >oven at the same time is negligable.
>>
>> Probably, but next time you cook a large meal, make some measurements
>> of use. You'll be surprised.
>>
>Even when cooking 'a large meal' one doesn't have all the burners in
>use or at full power. For example we have a wok burner, if we're
>having a wok meal then it's the *only* burner used (and the oven isn't
>used either). I can assure yo that a wok meal can be a 'large meal'.
>
I know.
>
>> > We have a six burner hob but the
>> >reason for having six burners is not to be able to have them all on at
>> >the same time it's because they are different to allow different types
>> >of cooking.
>>
>> The Aga doesn't need to have that arrangement. There are two large
>> plates, each of which will take 3 or more pans. Controllability is
>> far superior to gas hobs because the pans can simply be moved from
>> area to area and for very low heat to a warming area over two of the
>> ovens. It's virtually impossible to boil things over, including
>> milk, you can melt chocolate directly without needing a basin and
>> water, and there is no messing around with vey low flames which tend
>> to go out.
>>
>Not what we are arguing about, you were quoting the power input of a
>conventional hob by adding up all the ring powers.
I wasn't really arguing about anything.
> I pointed out that
>one very rarely (if ever) uses them all at the same time. Your points
>above about the Aga may or may not be true but have absolutely nothing
>to do with how much a conventional hob consumes.
>
The conventional hob and oven that we used to have in the kitchen,
between them would raise the temperature to between 25 and 30 degrees
during a cooking session, and it is not a small kitchen. The Aga
does not.
>
>> Having said that, as I have already pointed out, the cooking methods
>> are different.
>>
>Exactly - so what's it got to do with conventional hob power
>consumption?
>
Pattern of use.
>>
>> >
>> >An oven won't take 4kW continuously once it's up to heat and also most
>> >modern ovens are capable of running on a 13 amp plug so must only be
>> >about 3kW.
>>
>> A fan oven with glass fronted door leaks huge amounts of heat into the
>> room when it's ruining (sorry running). Again, make some
>> measurements and see what is used.
>>
>You quoted 5kW (or was it 4kW?) for the oven, I was just pointing out
>that most conventional ovens can't possibly use that amount of power.
>When our (glass fronted) oven is up to heat it spends more time off
>than on. It's rated at 2.4kW (pretty typical nowadays) thus the power
>consumption is only around 1kW or so when cooking, not your 4kW
>figure.
I said 3-4kW. Refer to above point.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:58:37 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:31:21 +0100, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
>>wrote:
>
>>>I am not aware of any variations in cooking methods which can account
>>>for such a difference.
>>
>>I think that that is the real point.
>
>What on earth is it in "Aga cooking" that makes them use 40 times
>more fuel than normal cookers?
I didn't say that, you did.
>>As I pointed out, technology does not become invalidated with age.
>>
>>After all, we still use wheels.
>
>But not stone or wooden ones.
Pointless remark.
>
>>>Well so Aga claim. It appears to be a reasonable claim. If you look
>>>at only the quiescent state the heat losses are known and consistent,
>>>the temperature to be maintained is consistent. From this the energy
>>>required to maintain this steady state can easily be calculated.
>>
>>I've measured the consumption to be 700W on mine. This is somewhat
>>more meaningful that calculation.
>
>OK - so on your measured figure the energy used is 6,000kW/hr per
>year. This is still 12 times more than a conventional cooker.
Yet again...... our energy cost for the Aga is less than the
combination of the gas hob and electric oven. Secondly, the heat
from the Aga is usefully added to the space heating requirement for
approx 8 months of the year.
>
>
>
>Define "modern". The last Aga redesign was in 1956 (for the De Luxe
>Model C and CB Cookers) and 1964 for the oil fired OC and OCB Cookers
>(although a different burner was used post 1995).
Latest model using modulating burner. Have you tried one of those?
Andy Hall
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> writes:
>>On 27 Jul 2004 09:21:35 GMT, hu...@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:
>>
>>>Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> writes:
>>>
>>>[22 lines snipped]
>>>
>>>>Coming up to heat rapidly was the great claim of fan ovens. This is
>>>>partly the case, but it leads to problems such as unnevenness of
>>>>temperature and horrendous drying out of food.
>>>
>>>Bunk.
>>
>>Nope. We had a Neff oven before and some neighbours have (I believe)
>>a Bosch.
>>
>>Both were/are horrendous for drying out food and generally poor
>>results.
>
>Sorry, but it's bunk.
Sorry but it isn't. I've tried both and the Aga is far superior on
that point (as well as a number of others.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>Huge wrote:
>> Andy Hall writes:
>> > We had a Neff oven before and some neighbours have (I believe)
>> > a Bosch.
>> >
>> >Both were/are horrendous for drying out food and generally poor
>> >results.
>>
>> Sorry, but it's bunk.
>
>Yup, complete bunkum, unless the oven is broken.
The Neff that we had was not broken, but it certainly dried food with
a vengeance. My neighbour's Bosch does the same.
> I also have a Rayburn, which
>heats the water. I use it for cooking during the cooler times
>of the year. It's OK if it's ready for the job at the time.
>It's very nice for drying things on, too. Must not forget
>about food inside, though, or leave paper cased cartridges in.
You may find it useful to buy a book on how to cook with an Aga or
Rayburn.
>
>
>J.B.
Paul Mc Cann
an...@hall.nospam says...
where Agas and their ilk are very popular, even solid fuel versions.
With no exception, every one of the households that have one also have
an alternative method of cooking available. Be it gas or electric.
Farming folk tend to be pragamtic about such things. The Aga is just a
tool to them, not a fashion accessory, and as such they recognise its
shortcomings and compensate accordingly.
--
Paul Mc Cann
Paul Mc Cann
an...@hall.nospam says...
a fan oven.
--
Paul Mc Cann
Paul Mc Cann
Andy Hall
wrote:
>>
>I've followed this thread with great interest. We live in a country area
>where Agas and their ilk are very popular, even solid fuel versions.
>With no exception, every one of the households that have one also have
>an alternative method of cooking available. Be it gas or electric.
Well..... the only ones that I have are a microwave (doesn't get much
use) and a barbecue (which gets occasional use in the summer.
>
>Farming folk tend to be pragamtic about such things. The Aga is just a
>tool to them, not a fashion accessory, and as such they recognise its
>shortcomings and compensate accordingly.
I completely agree. I don't have time for fashion accessories, and
things have to work. I haven't had any problems that require
alternatives.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>>
>With due respect you might have found it useful to buy a book on using
>a fan oven.
There was.... the oven remained a disappointment.
The most joy came when it went on the skip along with the hob.
Peter Parry
wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:46:16 +0100, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
>wrote:
>>OK - so on your measured figure the energy used is 6,000kW/hr per
>>year. This is still 12 times more than a conventional cooker.
>
>Yet again...... our energy cost for the Aga is less than the
>combination of the gas hob and electric oven.
Your kitchen must have been a wonder to observe.
>>Define "modern". The last Aga redesign was in 1956 (for the De Luxe
>>Model C and CB Cookers) and 1964 for the oil fired OC and OCB Cookers
>>(although a different burner was used post 1995).
>
>Latest model using modulating burner. Have you tried one of those?
The latest model GC and GCB modulating burner as introduced in 1968?
It still uses between 6,000 and 22,000 kW/hr of energy a year doing
nothing.
Peter Parry
wrote:
> With due respect you might have found it useful to buy a book on using
> a fan oven.
As he appears to have been using over 17kW/hr per day cooking on
normal equipment I'm not surprised the food was dry. Incinerated
would probably be closer to the mark.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:42:54 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:46:16 +0100, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
>>wrote:
>
>
>
>>>OK - so on your measured figure the energy used is 6,000kW/hr per
>>>year. This is still 12 times more than a conventional cooker.
>>
>>Yet again...... our energy cost for the Aga is less than the
>>combination of the gas hob and electric oven.
>
>Your kitchen must have been a wonder to observe.
It is.
>It still uses between 6,000 and 22,000 kW/hr of energy a year doing
>nothing.
I think you may mean kWh ? By my measurements, the figure is close
to the lower one.
Is it really so difficult to understand that the quiescent heat is
added to the space heating during the heating months, and can be
subtracted from other sources.
Therefore, the incremental energy use is only a quarter of this -
about 1500 kWh. At a price of about 1.5p/kWh, the discussion is
about £22.50, which in the context of everything else is negligible.
Ian Stirling
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:15:08 +0100, Paul Mc Cann <tp...@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>> With due respect you might have found it useful to buy a book on using
>> a fan oven.
>
> As he appears to have been using over 17kW/hr per day cooking on
> normal equipment I'm not surprised the food was dry. Incinerated
> would probably be closer to the mark.
Hmm.
That'll boil off (from cold) some 30Kg of water.
Might be a little problem with condensation.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote:
I'm not sure where that figure was dreamt up, but this is another Aga
advantage - you would be most unlikely to need to boil that much
water. Any water vapour that is released in the ovens (and there
does not appear to be much) is delivered directly to the flue.
I forgot to mention that the two ovens that are hot enough to have the
possibility of splashes are also hot enough to burn them off of the
cast iron lining. The cooler ones don't tend to get splashed at
all and so again no big cleaning issue. Segregation of ovens by
temperature saves a lot of the horrible cleaning jobs.
IMM
"Andy Hall" <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:fkfdg0l3dtkb8tmtf...@4ax.com...
Or save a fortune and not have one at all. They are naff. They are avocado
of cooking appliances.
Andy Hall
>
>
>Or save a fortune and not have one at all. They are naff. They are avocado
>of cooking appliances.
>
Thus speaks the expert..... :-)
Personally I prefer avocados fresh.....
Andy Hall
>Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> writes:
>>On 27 Jul 2004 10:36:56 GMT, hu...@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:
>>
>[20 lines snipped]
>
>>>Sorry, but it's bunk.
>>
>>
>>Sorry but it isn't.
>
>Tis!
>Tis!
>Tis!
He's behind you! etc.
>
>>I've tried both and the Aga is far superior on
>>that point (as well as a number of others.
>
>I've tried both and I noticed little or no difference.
>
>I think we'd better agree to disagree on this one.
OK, then. ;-)
use...@isbd.co.uk
> >You quoted 5kW (or was it 4kW?) for the oven, I was just pointing out
> >that most conventional ovens can't possibly use that amount of power.
> >When our (glass fronted) oven is up to heat it spends more time off
> >than on. It's rated at 2.4kW (pretty typical nowadays) thus the power
> >consumption is only around 1kW or so when cooking, not your 4kW
> >figure.
>
> I said 3-4kW. Refer to above point.
>
--
Chris Green
Peter Parry
wrote:
>Is it really so difficult to understand that the quiescent heat is
>added to the space heating during the heating months, and can be
>subtracted from other sources.
On you figures your Aga uses about 6,000kWh per year and you use
space heating for 8 months of the year. Let's assume for that 8
months the cooking comes free and heating the house at 2AM is really
important so all the wasted heat is really useful.
That leaves a cooking energy load of 2,000kWh per year or only 4
times greater than the 500kWh load of conventional cooking methods.
How this produced the saving you claim is interesting although you
now seem to be saying that an extra expenditure of £22.50 was really
a saving. You are not a relative of Mr Mandelson by any chance are
you?
8 months of space heating is quite high however, most families find
the heating season to be closer to 6 months. You figures for your
Aga are also considerably at variance with Agas own.
Taking the Aga figures and a 6 month heating season (but still
assuming cooking during the heating season is free) with an electric
Aga the energy expenditure on cooking alone will be 5,500kWh. With a
gas Aga it will be 11,000kWh.
This produces a cooking energy bill of only 11 to 22 times that of
conventional cookers without taking into account any of the
considerable (according to your tales of heat radiation) contribution
of conventional appliances to the heating load during the heating
season.
For bulk propane the price per kWh is about 4p, so on your figures
the extra cost over conventional cooking is £60 per year (assuming
the gas cooker to be identical in performance to yours)
If you take a 6 month heating season and Agas own figures it costs
£420 per year more to run an LPG Aga than a conventional cooker.
How these are described as "savings" is interesting.
Nick Brooks
> snip
>
>
>>>As I pointed out, technology does not become invalidated with age.
>>>
>>>After all, we still use wheels.
>>
>>But not stone or wooden ones.
>
>
> Pointless remark.
>
>
I don't think this was a pointless remark. The point is that while we
still use the technology of the wheel we don't use it in outdated
designs. Similarly with cookers . . .
I use one of these http://www.mercury-appliances.co.uk/ and will happily
argue that it outperforms an AGA in every way except that of a space heater.
NB
Nick Brooks
If AGA's were "far superior" for cooking, wouldn't ALL top restaurants
have to have one?
NB
IMM
"Nick Brooks" <nick....@mailandnews.com> wrote in message
news:2mph6cF...@uni-berlin.de...
> Andy Hall wrote:
> > On 27 Jul 2004 10:36:56 GMT, hu...@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> writes:
> >>
> >>>On 27 Jul 2004 09:21:35 GMT, hu...@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>[22 lines snipped]
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Coming up to heat rapidly was the great claim of fan ovens. This
is
> >>>>>partly the case, but it leads to problems such as unnevenness of
> >>>>>temperature and horrendous drying out of food.
> >>>>
> >>>>Bunk.
> >>>
> >>>Nope. We had a Neff oven before and some neighbours have (I believe)
> >>>a Bosch.
> >>>
> >>>Both were/are horrendous for drying out food and generally poor
> >>>results.
> >>
> >>Sorry, but it's bunk.
> >
> > Sorry but it isn't. I've tried both and the Aga is far superior on
> > that point (as well as a number of others.
I have a Neff oven and it does not dry out food. You have to know how to
cook.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:30:09 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Is it really so difficult to understand that the quiescent heat is
>>added to the space heating during the heating months, and can be
>>subtracted from other sources.
>
>On you figures your Aga uses about 6,000kWh per year and you use
>space heating for 8 months of the year. Let's assume for that 8
>months the cooking comes free and heating the house at 2AM is really
>important so all the wasted heat is really useful.
By definition, if it is released in the house when it is useful, then
it is not "wasted". I already pointed out that night setback, where
the space heating system is allowed to maintain a lower temperature,
rather than being turned off totally is a valid arrangement.
As a user of a UFH system, I would have thought that this concept
would have been familiar to you.
>
>That leaves a cooking energy load of 2,000kWh per year or only 4
>times greater than the 500kWh load of conventional cooking methods.
>How this produced the saving you claim is interesting although you
>now seem to be saying that an extra expenditure of £22.50 was really
>a saving. You are not a relative of Mr Mandelson by any chance are
>you?
Heaven forbid. I've never been forced to resign.
As I've been repeatedly saying, you have to look at the *whole*
picture.
>
>8 months of space heating is quite high however, most families find
>the heating season to be closer to 6 months.
Again you misunderstand. The heating does not have to be an on/off
thing these days. For example, the condensing boiler that I have
modulates down to 3kW and does so linearly dependent on a combination
of exterior and interior temperatures. On cool evenings, even in
the summer, it will come on at this level to maintain the house
temperature, running the radiators at around 40 degrees.
The heat from the Aga can be dissipated from the kitchen into other
rooms, effectively contributing to that low level of heating.
On that basis, and with the very low levels involved, I view the
heating season as closer to 9 months - I suggested 8 as a conservative
estimate.
>You figures for your
>Aga are also considerably at variance with Agas own.
>
I have no idea how they make their measurements - only how I did my
own.
>Taking the Aga figures and a 6 month heating season (but still
>assuming cooking during the heating season is free) with an electric
>Aga the energy expenditure on cooking alone will be 5,500kWh. With a
>gas Aga it will be 11,000kWh.
I don't accept 6 months, and where an earth you get 11000 kWh from I
have no idea. 700W continuously all year comes to 6132 kWh.
>
>This produces a cooking energy bill of only 11 to 22 times that of
>conventional cookers without taking into account any of the
>considerable (according to your tales of heat radiation) contribution
>of conventional appliances to the heating load during the heating
>season.
I have no idea of where you obtained those figures from either - they
don't correspond to the measurements that I made. I would rather
rely on that than some theoretical study.
>
>For bulk propane the price per kWh is about 4p, so on your figures
>the extra cost over conventional cooking is £60 per year (assuming
>the gas cooker to be identical in performance to yours)
>
Whether it's £22 based on NG as I suggested or £60 based on LPG, I
think is irrelevant in the context of the whole energy requirement for
a house, and I don't see any point in wasting time on it.
Andy Hall
<nick....@mailandnews.com> wrote:
>Andy Hall wrote:
>> snip
>>
>>
>>>>As I pointed out, technology does not become invalidated with age.
>>>>
>>>>After all, we still use wheels.
>>>
>>>But not stone or wooden ones.
>>
>>
>> Pointless remark.
>>
>>
>snip
>
>I don't think this was a pointless remark. The point is that while we
>still use the technology of the wheel we don't use it in outdated
>designs. Similarly with cookers . . .
I think that that is stretching the analogy too far.
>
>I use one of these http://www.mercury-appliances.co.uk/ and will happily
>argue that it outperforms an AGA in every way except that of a space heater.
>
There are plenty of wannabees around who have copied aspects of the
Aga technology.
This one doesn't even do that, being more appropriate for an
industrial canteen than a home.
For them to claim that they "outperform" depends wholly on the
definition of what that means. I don't accept the agenda of
"performance" that these tin box manufacturers would have their would
be customers use, so to me that is irrelevant.
Andy Hall
<nick....@mailandnews.com> wrote:
>
>If AGA's were "far superior" for cooking, wouldn't ALL top restaurants
>have to have one?
>
>NB
Aga's what?
Not really. The Aga is intended and scaled for a domestic
environment. Restaurants don't use domestic conventional cookers
either, so it's a pointless analogy.
There are, however, small family run restaurants/hotels that certainly
use Agas.
In addition, there does not have to be any correlation between
restaurants and a need to use industrial cookers.
For example, if you go to a traditional pizza place (I don't mean the
doughy crap that Pizza Hut et al. produce) then they will have a
traditional wood burning pizza oven. The results with these bear
no relationship in terms of quality to any other method.
Nick Brooks
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:11:20 +0100, Nick Brooks
> <nick....@mailandnews.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Andy Hall wrote:
>>
>>>snip
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>As I pointed out, technology does not become invalidated with age.
>>>>>
>>>>>After all, we still use wheels.
>>>>
>>>>But not stone or wooden ones.
>>>
>>>
>>>Pointless remark.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>snip
>>
>>I don't think this was a pointless remark. The point is that while we
>>still use the technology of the wheel we don't use it in outdated
>>designs. Similarly with cookers . . .
>
>
> I think that that is stretching the analogy too far.
>
>
What, and suggesting that we should still use old fashioned cookers is
OK because we still use wheels ISN'T stretching the analogy?
>
>>I use one of these http://www.mercury-appliances.co.uk/ and will happily
>>argue that it outperforms an AGA in every way except that of a space heater.
>>
>
>
> There are plenty of wannabees around who have copied aspects of the
> Aga technology.
>
> This one doesn't even do that,
Why would it want to . . .
being more appropriate for an
> industrial canteen than a home.
IYHO
>
> For them to claim that they "outperform" depends wholly on the
> definition of what that means. I don't accept the agenda of
> "performance" that these tin box manufacturers would have their would
> be customers use, so to me that is irrelevant.
>
>
>
They weren't making any such claim, I was.
Peter Parry
wrote:
>I don't accept 6 months, and where an earth you get 11000 kWh from I
>have no idea.
Aga.
>700W continuously all year comes to 6132 kWh.
It does - but Aga don't claim anything near that "efficiency".
Their Product Design Manual quotes a continuous generated heat
emitted into the kitchen of 3,200BTU (0.937Wh)(163kWh/wk or
8,476kWh/yr))for all two oven models and 4,000BTU (1.17kWh)(196kWh/wk
or 10,192kWh/yr) for the 4 oven. On top of this there is the
continuously wasted heat from the exhaust.
Their fuel consumption page quotes running consumption of 224kWh per
week for the electric 2 oven and 273kWh per week for the electric 4
Oven. This equals an annual fuel consumption of 11,700kWh or
14,200kWh (2 and 4 oven).
Taking the 2 oven only the weekly radiated heat into the kitchen is
163kWh and assuming cooking averages 1.6kWh/day (11.2kWh/wk) and an
exhaust loss (electric) of 200W/hr (33.6kWh/wk) that comes to 208kWh
per week compared to Agas figure of 224 kWh.
This leaves 16kWh a week or 95W/hr unaccounted for but as I have
probably underestimated the exhaust losses both sets of figures seem
to be reasonably consistent.
As you would expect the gas fired models take more energy because of
the lower efficiency and greater heat loss through the exhaust
(425kWh and 527kWh per week for 2 and 4 oven models respectively or
22,100/27,400kWh/yr).
Personally I prefer a cooker with a cooking fuel efficiency rather
greater than about 1%.
>I have no idea of where you obtained those figures from either - they
>don't correspond to the measurements that I made. I would rather
>rely on that than some theoretical study.
I rather doubt if Aga have only carried out theoretical studies on
the devices they design and build or would knowingly overstate the
fuel consumption of their devices by the margin you suggest. Any
error I suggest is more likely to be in your measurements.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:02:26 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
>wrote:
>
>>I don't accept 6 months, and where an earth you get 11000 kWh from I
>>have no idea.
>
>Aga.
>
>>700W continuously all year comes to 6132 kWh.
>
>It does - but Aga don't claim anything near that "efficiency".
I already said that one can only assume that they are being
conservative.
>
> This equals an annual fuel consumption of 11,700kWh or
>14,200kWh (2 and 4 oven).
I already quoted what I measured.
>
>Taking the 2 oven only the weekly radiated heat into the kitchen is
>163kWh and assuming cooking averages 1.6kWh/day (11.2kWh/wk) and an
>exhaust loss (electric) of 200W/hr (33.6kWh/wk) that comes to 208kWh
>per week compared to Agas figure of 224 kWh.
>
>This leaves 16kWh a week or 95W/hr unaccounted for but as I have
>probably underestimated the exhaust losses both sets of figures seem
>to be reasonably consistent.
>
>As you would expect the gas fired models take more energy because of
>the lower efficiency and greater heat loss through the exhaust
>(425kWh and 527kWh per week for 2 and 4 oven models respectively or
>22,100/27,400kWh/yr).
The emission from the flue would depend on its type and length.
On mine, the flue extends vertically through the house. Near to the
terminal it is not particularly warm at all, so I do not consider
these losses to be of note.
>
>Personally I prefer a cooker with a cooking fuel efficiency rather
>greater than about 1%.
It's irrelevant if you look at the total picture.
>
>>I have no idea of where you obtained those figures from either - they
>>don't correspond to the measurements that I made. I would rather
>>rely on that than some theoretical study.
>
>I rather doubt if Aga have only carried out theoretical studies on
>the devices they design and build or would knowingly overstate the
>fuel consumption of their devices by the margin you suggest. Any
>error I suggest is more likely to be in your measurements.
Sorry no. Measured on several occasions.
Andy Hall
<nick....@mailandnews.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I don't think this was a pointless remark. The point is that while we
>>>still use the technology of the wheel we don't use it in outdated
>>>designs. Similarly with cookers . . .
>>
>>
>> I think that that is stretching the analogy too far.
>>
>>
>
>What, and suggesting that we should still use old fashioned cookers is
>OK because we still use wheels ISN'T stretching the analogy?
>
No, because I wasn't suggesting that anybody uses anything. As far as
I am concerned, cook on a Primus stove if you like.
However, I can quite reasonably offer a view about Aga use and cooking
because I have one, and about other forms because I have had those as
well.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>>I use one of these http://www.mercury-appliances.co.uk/ and will happily
>>>argue that it outperforms an AGA in every way except that of a space heater.
>>>
>>
>>
>> There are plenty of wannabees around who have copied aspects of the
>> Aga technology.
>>
>> This one doesn't even do that,
>
>Why would it want to . . .
It would need to if it is competing in the Aga market. Otherwise it
is no different from any other conventional range.
>
> being more appropriate for an
>> industrial canteen than a home.
>
>IYHO
Aga Foodservice Group also manufacture a product called Falcon which
is a seriously engineered stainless steel range for people that want
that sort of thing.
Personally I don't, but I have not suggested that everyone should buy
an Aga either.
>>
>> For them to claim that they "outperform" depends wholly on the
>> definition of what that means. I don't accept the agenda of
>> "performance" that these tin box manufacturers would have their would
>> be customers use, so to me that is irrelevant.
>>
>>
>>
>They weren't making any such claim, I was.
>
Ah. Clearly we have different criteria.
IMM
"Peter Parry" <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk> wrote in message
news:spbfg0d3el18si3cq...@4ax.com...
I totally agree.
Peter Parry
wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:50:46 +0100, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
>wrote:
>>It does - but Aga don't claim anything near that "efficiency".
>
>I already said that one can only assume that they are being
>conservative.
One can assume they are being conservative, accurate or optimistic.
Poor energy efficiency is not a selling point and they do make
certain claims about insulation etc which shows they think it
concerns prospective buyers.
Either they or you are correct. They are the designers and
manufacturers, have decades of data and a vested interest in showing
the device uses as little fuel as possible. It would be
counterproductive if they were to unnecessarily overstate the fuel
consumption. They have, they tell me, carried out many years of
practical testing on fully instrumented rigs of all their cookers and
are confident the figures they have published are accurate and
neither under nor overstate the case.
On the face of it the probability of their data being more accurate
and reliable than yours must be considered to be the more likely.
Andy Hall
wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:24:30 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:50:46 +0100, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
>>wrote:
>
>>>It does - but Aga don't claim anything near that "efficiency".
>>
>>I already said that one can only assume that they are being
>>conservative.
>
>One can assume they are being conservative, accurate or optimistic.
>Poor energy efficiency is not a selling point and they do make
>certain claims about insulation etc which shows they think it
>concerns prospective buyers.
As I have stated repeatedly, the energy efficiency has to be looked at
in the *total* context, not just a narrow on defined for conventional
cooker manufacturers
>
>Either they or you are correct.
>
>On the face of it the probability of their data being more accurate
>and reliable than yours must be considered to be the more likely.
Not really. It depends on the basis of measurement, and they say
that theirs are typical figures. They don't say how those figures are
derived.
I know what I measured on a number of occasions and that satisfies me.
Other interested parties, with Agas could do the same. Those without
are guessing.
The Natural Philosopher
> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:20:28 +0100, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On 23 Jul 2004 05:51:12 -0700, simonl...@lycos.co.uk (Simon
>>Langford) wrote:
>>
>
> .
>
>>>The electric comes in "standard" or "night storage" models. We don't
>>>have Economy7 at the moment, but if we were going to get an Electric
>>>Aga, we'd probably go for night storage and get Economy7 set up. But
>>>does anyone have a night-storage Aga? Are they really as hot in the
>>>evening as they are in the morning?
>>
>>No. They leak heat at over 1kW/hr when doing nothing.
>
>
> No they do not. It's around 700W heat input steady state. I've
> measured it.
>
>
According to Aga my oil fired one is 600W.
I'll buy 700W tho after a year of two of insulation settling and general
degradation...
The Natural Philosopher
> Peter Parry wrote:
>
>> On 23 Jul 2004 05:51:12 -0700, simonl...@lycos.co.uk (Simon
>> Langford) wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I know some people think Agas are great, some think they're antiquated
>>> old heaps -- I'm not interested in stirring up that discussion. We've
>>> decided we want an Aga, and that's that.
>>
>>
>>
>> It will be an expensive learning process but that's your choice.
>>
>>
>>> The electric comes in "standard" or "night storage" models. We don't
>>> have Economy7 at the moment, but if we were going to get an Electric
>>> Aga, we'd probably go for night storage and get Economy7 set up. But
>>> does anyone have a night-storage Aga? Are they really as hot in the
>>> evening as they are in the morning?
>>
>>
>>
>> No. They leak heat at over 1kW/hr when doing nothing. Apart from
>> the obvious problems of this in the summer it means that by the
>> evening they are not particularly effective. If you are an "Aga
>> cooker" and live off stew this may not be too important.
>>
>>
>>> I'm a bit worried about running costs. From the Aga website, an
>>> electric Aga will use 224 units per week, at around 3p per unit
>>> (Economy7). So that's £6.72 per week.
>>>
>>> LPG Aga's use 60 litres per week. We pay 20p/litre for our LPG, so
>>> that's £12 per week -- much more than Economy7.
>>
>>
>>
>> LPG is an expensive fuel - however you need to look at your cooking
>> style - if it involves the thing eating peak rate electricity to make
>> up for the heat loss during the day the running cost of the electric
>> version increases considerably. They were not designed to be
>> particularly energy efficient.
>>
>>
>>> So I don't know what to do. Has anyone got anything to say about
>>> night-storage Aga's? Or anything else I should take into
>>> consideration?
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't forget you still need a real cooker for the summer months when
>> the heat loss from the lump forces you to turn it off to avoid heat
>> stroke in the kitchen.
>>
>>
> It depends on your house. I grow up in an old stone farmhouse with a
> coal, then LPG aga, and yep an aga did make the kitchen slightly too
> warm in summer, but nothing like my new modern house gets with just the
> sun to heat it now.
>
> Word of warning [from an aga critic], Modern agas are expensive, and
> really badly build. I use to sit on the lids of my mums first aga and
> the enamel stayed intact even up to the day she replaced it with a new
> LPG alternative. The new one had flimsy lids, and you just had to look
> at it for the enamel to start flaking off.
>
> In my view AGA has tried to cut costs by cutting standards.
>
> As a parting note, Britain IS running out of gas. We will soon have to
> import it, prices of all forms of fuel are likely to rise. Daily heating
> a large slab of iron is only going to get more expensive in the future.
>
I don't think that's true. Apart from days when its over about 25
outside, an aga is basically most of what you need as background heat
apart from the winter, where you need more.
In a well insulated house its basically only 10 60W light bulbs, or a
couple of computers anyway, or 6 human beings, is about 'just right' IMHO..
And, as has been pointed out, they heat the kitchen LESS when cooking
than gas or electric.
>
The Natural Philosopher
> Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message news:<cd82g0d46a7e4b70u...@4ax.com>...
>
>>I have the natural gas model and have found the energy figures quoted
>>to be quite pessimistic. THe implied energy use is about 3kW, but I
>>have measured it to be no more than about 700W.
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>Had you though about getting an oil model plus a small oil tank? I
>>suspect that this would be cheaper to run than LPG or electricity.
>
>
> Yes, we did consider that. Unfortunately it's not an option as oil
> requires a chimney.
Does it? I thought there were balanced flue ones...
There's no chimney at our chosen site and
> installing a flue's no good either as the kitchen is a ground-floor
> extension to the main 3-storey house, and the flue would need to rise
> all the way to the roofline of the main house. (And it's a listed
> building, so we'd probably not get permission anyhow.)
Might not be a big problem to run a double insulated stainless steel
liner up inside the house. Thats do-able.
>
> I'm leaning towards getting an LPG Aga, since the gas pipe is already
> in the correct position and a power-flue ejects the gasses through a
> small hole in the wall. To go electric, we'd have to get more
> first-fix wiring installed, which means disturbing all kinds of other
> rooms and decoration.
One of the disdvantages of electric is that it runs on electric.:-) Out
here we have no gas and LPG is too expensive and needs the tank etc, and
with frequent powercuts at least we can still eat...with our nice
gravity fed oil aga.
>
> I don't know how much heat is "wasted" through the power-flue gas
> version, and I really haven't got a clear picture of how much gas it
> uses. The Aga website says 60 litres/week, but Andy's figures would
> imply less than a quarter of that...
The Natural Philosopher
> If you cooked in an oven with no insulation whatsoever you could not
> possibly come close to the total yearly consumption of an Aga.
>
Possibly, but an aga is not really a cooker.
Its a sort of baseline house heating system. Which happens to cook as well.
As a house heater, its pretty darned efficient.
A lot depends on lifestyle. For a young yuppie couple on a tight budget
who both work all day with an empty house, and a poorly insulated one,
its going to piss heat away.
If however you spend a lot of time at home, do a lot of cooking, and
have a well insulated house - then an aga by itself, backed up with
maybe a couple of open fires, is capable of heating a pretty large space
efficiently.
I agree they are completely inappropriate for a bachelor flat in
Islington....
The Natural Philosopher
> Simon Langford <simonl...@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>I know some people think Agas are great, some think they're antiquated
>>old heaps -- I'm not interested in stirring up that discussion. We've
>>decided we want an Aga, and that's that.
>
>
> I wonder why they haven't done a "proper" one.
> It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to come up with an oven
> that comes up to temperature in seconds, without overshooting,
> and stays at temperature until the object is removed from it.
>
Microwave?
The Natural Philosopher
My point was simply that 700W or so of continuous heat can be usefully
> dissipated in the kitchen during the heating months of the year.
> The 10-15kW from a fan oven and gas hob arrangement probably can't,
> meaning that people have to open windows and turn on massive extractor
> hoods, wasting huge amounts of energy through the vent.
> We have an extractor hood, but in reality it is very little used -
> typically in the brief periods when onions or similar are being
> sauteed. The rest of the time, cooking vapours go up through the
> flue.
>
>
I am totally with Andy on this. I have a 30 sq meter kitchen, and a
bedroom above, and basiaclly all that lot plus a substantial area of
corridoor is heated adequately byt the aga in the spring/autumn months.
Oil cnsumption in summer - just the aga and hot water -is WAY down on
what the house needs and takes for autumn winter and spring.
Overall heating bills are comparable with other houses of similar size
and insulation standards.
We never use the fan which is across the kitchen from the aga anyay,
unless something terrible happens.
The aga flue itself clears the alcove in which it sits, and background
ventilation requirements a la BCO mena that you are stuick with a heat
leakage anyway.
Cooking does make teh kitchen a little hotter, but not very much. Unlike
electric cookers which DO dump in (very expensive) heat.
The Natural Philosopher
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:58:37 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
> wrote:
>>As I pointed out, technology does not become invalidated with age.
>>
>>After all, we still use wheels.
>
>
> But not stone or wooden ones.
>
Some people do.
The Natural Philosopher
> "Toby" <tobynew...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<2mlnecF...@uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>To the OP, if you are still there, the LPG option would only be viable if
>>you can accommodate a fixed storage tank, cylinders at this rate will be
>>expensive.
>
>
> Yup - still here. No problem regarding the tank - we have a 2,000
> litre tank in the garden. So, at 60 litres per week, that would
> supply an LPG Aga for over 7 months. OK, so we need LPG for central
> heating and hot water too - but hopefully a little less for central
> heating since the Aga will heat about 50% of the ground floor.
>
> Simon.
That sounds similar to my oil experience. 2500 liters would probably
last the best part of a year, but in winter teh CH gulps it down in
about three months.
Howevr living at home now and not commuting means the 400 quid a tank of
oil every 3 months is offest by the not 50 quid a week in petrol/diesel
in the cars.
The Natural Philosopher
> It still uses between 6,000 and 22,000 kW/hr of energy a year doing
> nothing.
>
Not doing nothing. Acting as a heat bank for the whole house.
Ian Stirling
I wsa thinking more of rapidly heating low-mass walls, fan to come
on only for a few dozen seconds to heat the air through.
The Natural Philosopher
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:30:09 +0100, Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Is it really so difficult to understand that the quiescent heat is
>>added to the space heating during the heating months, and can be
>>subtracted from other sources.
>
>
> On you figures your Aga uses about 6,000kWh per year and you use
> space heating for 8 months of the year. Let's assume for that 8
> months the cooking comes free and heating the house at 2AM is really
> important so all the wasted heat is really useful.
>
> That leaves a cooking energy load of 2,000kWh per year or only 4
> times greater than the 500kWh load of conventional cooking methods.
> How this produced the saving you claim is interesting although you
> now seem to be saying that an extra expenditure of £22.50 was really
> a saving. You are not a relative of Mr Mandelson by any chance are
> you?
>
> 8 months of space heating is quite high however, most families find
> the heating season to be closer to 6 months. You figures for your
> Aga are also considerably at variance with Agas own.
>
I have found that some heating is required about ten months of the year.
Perhaps I just like warm dry houses.
Any tome teh outside temp is below 22C, I want some heat. Thats what the
house is kept at.
In summer, I get some thermal gans frpm sun into some rpoms, then there
is teh inevitable leakge of expensive electricity frok TV's computers
etc. However in a largeish house, thse are not sufficient to offset
losses. 5 am on even a July morning is a few degrees C only.
> Taking the Aga figures and a 6 month heating season (but still
> assuming cooking during the heating season is free) with an electric
> Aga the energy expenditure on cooking alone will be 5,500kWh. With a
> gas Aga it will be 11,000kWh.
>
> This produces a cooking energy bill of only 11 to 22 times that of
> conventional cookers without taking into account any of the
> considerable (according to your tales of heat radiation) contribution
> of conventional appliances to the heating load during the heating
> season.
>
> For bulk propane the price per kWh is about 4p, so on your figures
> the extra cost over conventional cooking is £60 per year (assuming
> the gas cooker to be identical in performance to yours)
>
> If you take a 6 month heating season and Agas own figures it costs
> £420 per year more to run an LPG Aga than a conventional cooker.
>
> How these are described as "savings" is interesting.
>
Agas are not cheaper to run than conventional cookers, but they are
efficent heaters, and cooking is free, and very very good. Especially
the ovens. Exhaust flue temps are down around 45-50- dgerees - much
better than even a condensing boiler - so IF YOU NEED THE HEAT you do
very well with an aga.
If you don't need the heat, they are an expensive waste of time. Unless
the fashion element is important to you.
Agas work best in large kitchens with plenty of thermal mass and
preferably lots of insulation. Like underfloor, you have to have the
right house for them. Stuffing one in a daughty old victorian semi that
you vacate most of the working week is totally useless.
>
>
The Natural Philosopher
No, since restaurants have to produce food fast, to order, and of many
different types. You seldom get a decent roast in a restaurant - usually
its reheated garbage. Its very similar tho to a tandoori oven - and that
strangely, being a clay oven, is popular ... The Aga is primarily a
roaster, slow cooker and baker. No restaurants roast, slow cook or bake.
They grill, broil, boil and fry mainly.
And Agas are not primarily cookers. They are space heaters with a useful
family sized, not restaurant sized. cooking facility.
And who needs to heat a working restaurant kitchen 24/7 anyway?
> NB
The Natural Philosopher
> Other interested parties, with Agas could do the same. Those without
> are guessing.
>
>
>
>
What you have to appreciate is just how awful a Combi boiler is in both
efficiency and ability to cook, compared to an Aga ;-)
Andy Hall
wrote:
>Simon Langford wrote:
>
>> Andy Hall <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message news:<cd82g0d46a7e4b70u...@4ax.com>...
>>
>>>I have the natural gas model and have found the energy figures quoted
>>>to be quite pessimistic. THe implied energy use is about 3kW, but I
>>>have measured it to be no more than about 700W.
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>Had you though about getting an oil model plus a small oil tank? I
>>>suspect that this would be cheaper to run than LPG or electricity.
>>
>>
>> Yes, we did consider that. Unfortunately it's not an option as oil
>> requires a chimney.
>
>Does it? I thought there were balanced flue ones...
Not for oil I think - choice is lined masonry or twin wall stainless
steel flue.
In gas you can have conventional, balanced or power flue.
>
>There's no chimney at our chosen site and
>> installing a flue's no good either as the kitchen is a ground-floor
>> extension to the main 3-storey house, and the flue would need to rise
>> all the way to the roofline of the main house. (And it's a listed
>> building, so we'd probably not get permission anyhow.)
>
>Might not be a big problem to run a double insulated stainless steel
>liner up inside the house. Thats do-able.
That's what we did and it was no big deal at all.
Grunff
> Not for oil I think - choice is lined masonry or twin wall stainless
> steel flue.
>
> In gas you can have conventional, balanced or power flue.
Friends of ours have recently installed an oil-fired Stanley which has a
balanced flue. I believe they chose the Stanley over the Aga for this
reason.
--
Grunff