Leaking around uPVC window - advice appreciated

[Bert Coules]

I raised this in another thread, where I asked about resealing the silicone
around a uPVC window. Since then, another window in the same wall has also
started to leak through the top junction with the wall, and I could see
nothing wrong with the sealant.

So I stripped off the top length of the 2" wide plastic return strip (is
that the correct term?) and pulled out the silicone behind it. This
revealed what is presumably the underside of the outer brick wall, covered
in what feels like mortar (filling the gap between window frame and
brickwork). This mortar was sopping wet - quite saturated - and very
crumbly.

Here's a picture: http://tinyurl.com/ntzf9k2 It's not as clear as I'd like,
but the white area is the top of the frame and above that is the top of the
window cavity, with the strip of mortar and the plaster (or at least the
bits that didn't come away with the silicone).

Now I'm not sure what to do. Should that mortar be there? Should I strip
it out and fill the gap with something else? Is expanding foam waterproof?
Or is there another alternative? Many thanks for any thoughts - and I hope
you're all having an excellent Christmas.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

OK, new information. I was mistaken: what I'm seeing is the underside of
the bricks: the top frame of the window is separated from them by a bead of
clear silicone. What I took to be a continuous layer of disintegrating
mortar was actually debris from the crumbling mortar between the bricks
which has been spread along by rain water seeping through.

It seems then then I should replace the mortar and the silicone. Or -
perhaps as a temporary measure - could I remove just some of the mortar
(working from the inside) and use a generous amount of silicone to fill the
gaps between the bricks? Not ideal, obviously, but I'd rather not be
outside working up a ladder with the weather the way it is at the moment.

Again, thanks for any thoughts.

Bert

[Bob Minchin]

How/why is the water getting into the cavity in the first place. Is
there a window above where the sealing has failed.

The pointing could have failed and combined with severe recent weather
to allow rain to penetrate the wall above the window and run down.

In a modern construction there would be a cavity tray - usually
incorporated into the lintel with weep vents in the lowest course of
outer brickwork to allow any water that makes its way in to drain back
out over the window head.
Many UPVC companies dont seem to fit a window head moulding or fit/check
cavity trays in older installs.

You could possibly insert a strip of lead flashing to make an improvised
tray across the full width of the window plus 100-150mm at each end and
remove the mortar in between every other vertical brick joint in the
lowest course over the window to drain the tray to the outside.

hth
Bob

[harryagain]

"Bob Minchin" <bob.minc...@YOURHATntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:l9k4vs$1pr$1...@dont-email.me...

Above is all correct.
The water is getting in at some point above your window. This needs to be
identified and fixed.
Could be:
Faulty pointing/rendering.
Leaking/blocked gutter.
Roof leak.
Leaking mastic on any windows above.
Leaking internal/external plumbing/drains.
Etc, etc.

You have to look at and eliminate all this things until you find the
problem.

[Bert Coules]

Thanks for the new answers. I'm fairly certain that it's the pointing
that's to blame: there are no windows or gutters above the window, the roof
is fine, there's no adjacent plumbing or any other source of water that I
can think of.

The window was put in around twelve years ago, and there's no cavity tray or
any other provision for a run-off. I like the idea of a lead flashing drip
tray: I'll look into that tomorrow.

Bert

[Andy Burns]

Bert Coules wrote:

> Here's a picture: http://tinyurl.com/ntzf9k2 It's not as clear as I'd like

Is that from inside?

Another photo with a wider field of view might help to visualise it.

> Now I'm not sure what to do. Should that mortar be there?

IME (which only applies to a single house really) for wooden windows the
bottom sill is likely to be fully bedded in mortar, the side just a few
blobs, none at the top, just whatever plaster found its way above the
frame during plastering

If fitted with a replacement PVCu window, I'd expect any significant gap
to be filled with foam, then siliconed outside, caulked inside, perhaps
extra PVCu trim pieces fitted to cover wide gaps/missing chunks of
plaster depending on the level of damage.

[ARW]

"Bert Coules" <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ZvWdnU_ajp1hOiDP...@brightview.co.uk...

Bert, what are the black things I have highlighted in red

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=File:Windowa.jpg



--
Adam

[Phil L]

It's getting in through the pointing, running down the inside of the outer
skin of brickwork and coming through, this is what cavity trays are for, but
you don't have them, and putting one in now is a major job, unless you have
two seperate lintels above the window? - if it's a catnic type lintel that
covers both skins, these usually work as a cavity tray as well, provided
there's weep holes outside.
If it's 2 lintels and you can get into the cavity from inside the house, you
can install a tray - use semi rigid PVC, like wide DPM, about 12in wide and
you'll need to rake out everything above the frame so that it can sit on top
of the frame and drain to outside.
If you can't get into the cavity from inside, then it only leaves one option
and that's to take out the exterior brickwork above these frames and install
one, then brick them back up, with weepholes.

In the meantime, you may want to re-point the elevation that needs it, and
sort the cavity trays out in summer

[Phil L]

clear silicone that was used to stick on the upvc trims

[Bert Coules]

Thanks to everyone for the new replies.

Adam, the flash has made that picture very deceptive: the "black things"
are, I think, shadows cast by the edges of one of several layers of plaster.
Take a look at this: http://tinyurl.com/ohh2lt6

Andy, yes, the picture is from inside.

Phil L, the fact that I can see bricks and mortar immediately above the
window frame rather makes me wonder about the whole question of a lintel or
lintels: I rather suspect that there aren't any. Here's a picture of both
leaking windows from the outside: http://tinyurl.com/oycvsrp

Thanks for your detailed advice on the necessary remedial action.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Phil L wrote:

> Clear silicone that was used to stick on the upvc trims.

You could be right: I just posted that it was shadowing caused by one of
several layers of plaster, but I think I'm mistaken.

Bert

[Brian Gaff]

Erm, from the description, what is actually holding the bricks if there is a
gap?

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active

"Bob Minchin" <bob.minc...@YOURHATntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:l9k4vs$1pr$1...@dont-email.me...

[Bert Coules]

Brian Gaff wrote:

> ...what is actually holding the bricks if there is a gap?

It wasn't easy to see at first, but once I'd cleaned up the mess a bit it
seemed to me that the bricks are actually resting directly onto the top of
the frame, or as near as dammit. There's certainly silicone there, but
whether it's just a thin bead along the junction or more of a full-depth
barrier, I don't know.

Presumably, when the original window came out and the uPVC one went in,
there must have been a period where the brickwork was totally unsupported,
mustn't there?

Bert

[Bert Coules]

...or am I being stupid in thinking that there seems to be no lintel?

Bert

[Andy Burns]

Bert Coules wrote:

> yes, the picture is from inside.
>

> the fact that I can see bricks and mortar immediately above the
> window frame rather makes me wonder about the whole question of a lintel or
> lintels: I rather suspect that there aren't any.

The only windows in my house that have bricks (actually bricks split in
half lengthways) directly above with no lintel are first floor windows
not in the gable-end, where those windows are not supporting anything
other than the half bricks topping the outer leaf which the soffit butts
up to.

> Here's a picture of both
> leaking windows from the outside: http://tinyurl.com/oycvsrp

I might be imagining it (or perhaps it's a trick of the camera) but the
brickwork seems to be sagging over the right-hand window.

[Andy Burns]

Bert Coules wrote:

> ...or am I being stupid in thinking that there seems to be no lintel?

No evidence of the metal lip of a lintel visible under the bricks from
outside?

[Bert Coules]

Andy Burns wrote:

> I might be imagining it (or perhaps it's a trick of the camera) but the
> brickwork seems to be sagging over the right-hand window.

Good grief, now that you mention it... I don't think it's a trick of the
camera, but I'll check in the morning, when it's light. If you're right,
maybe the best thing would be to replace the window with a modern one and
install a lintel at the same time.

I asked this in another post, but it might be worth asking again: if there's
no lintel, what must have happened between the original window being removed
and the replacement one going in? Would an unsupported span of that width
(50") hold itself up for long enough?

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Andy Burns wrote:

> No evidence of the metal lip of a lintel visible under the bricks from
> outside?

How thin could that be and still do the job? I've never noticed one, but
then I've never actually looked. I'll check in the morning.

Bert

[Andy Burns]

Bert Coules wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> No evidence of the metal lip of a lintel visible under the bricks from
>> outside?
>
> How thin could that be and still do the job? I've never noticed one, but
> then I've never actually looked.

Mine are about 3mm, might not be visible without chipping off a little
mortar.

[Bert Coules]

Andy Burns wrote:

> Mine are about 3mm, might not be visible without chipping off a little
> mortar.

If the theory that the mortar is faulty is correct, that might be tempting
fate... Though actually, I would probably have seen evidence of a metal
lintel from the inside, I'd have thought. But I'll check properly tomorrow.

Bert

[harryagain]

"Bert Coules" <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote in message

news:Zd6dnTypupTMhiPP...@brightview.co.uk...

There's usually a metal lintel in that style of house.
The only exception might be if someone came along later and cut window
hole(s) in the existing brickwork.
This might actually be the case.
The RH window appears to have a non-vertical side to it as if someone has
taken a disc cutter and followed the vertices in the brickwork. (Could
possibly have been done with hammer and chisel)
That leaves two problems. How to support the brickwork and how to close the
cavities.
The solutions are expensive and time consuming and may not have been
properly done.

Check the edges of the bricks adjacent to the window and see if they appear
to have been cut or are normal brick finish.

Having said all of the above, you still have a defect somewhere above
letting water in.
If there is no lintel, the bricks above the window may have "dropped"
opening cracks in the cement.

Plastic windows offer zero support to brickwork above, timber windows offer
slight support.

[Phil L]

Yes, contrary to popular belief, brickwork holds itself up surprisingly
well, the bricks are wedged in to each other, for one to fall is unusual as
it would have to fall directly downwards, but normally one may drop
slightly, and wedge itself against the end(s) of the next brick along.
Even if none of it held up, if for instance all the mortar had decayed, you
would have to re-lay nine bricks above the left hand window and fourteen
above the right hand window as they come down in an inverted V formation.

Seeing as it's a ground floor location, I'd be tempted to D-I-Y, and don't
bother changing the frames - there *must* be an internal lintel, so just get
an external one and do it when the weather's better, and install a tray at
the same time - a couple of planks and some stands and you should be able to
do both in a day, day and a half maximum.

[Phil L]

Bert Coules wrote:
> ...or am I being stupid in thinking that there seems to be no lintel?
>
> Bert

Not at all, it was quite a popular fad in the late sixties and early
seventies, as was using 'london' brick, which yours seems to be built from,
they're still made today, but brickyards always give the warning that
they're not for garden walls or for use below a DPC, in other words, they
soak water up like a sponge, then blast themselves to pieces when the frost
gets in. There's 3 or 4 estates around here built with them from that period
and I've replaced hundreds of below damp london bricks that have shattered,
and quite a few above ground ones that have got splashed and then frozen

[harryagain]

"Phil L" <neverc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JTDvu.14413$%X.8...@fx29.am4...

All bricks are classified as to their frost rating. And other things.
http://www.brick.org.uk/2011/03/brick-standards/

[Bert Coules]

Thanks again for all the new replies. Close examination revealed several
places in the three courses above the window where the mortar was either
cracked or loose or both. I cleaned out the defective areas (which in some
cases revealed gaps open right through into the cavity) and remortared as
best I could. It really needs redoing professionally - ideally, the entire
wall could do with repointing - but with a bit of luck I will at least have
stopped the leaking, which was the immediate problem.

There was no sign of anything resembling a lintel, so Phil L, your point
about the bricks being self-supporting (or almost, in my case, because they
definitely have dropped a little) looks to have been spot-on.

Bert

[fred]

In article <CvqdnWSpTIQ3hiPP...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes

Have a look at the pic here:

http://www.catnic.com/lintel_features.aspx

The strength member is the tall part that lives in the cavity and the
thin steel lips form shelves that the bricks above rest on. The inside
to outside slope serves the same purpose as a cavity tray, deflecting
any penetrating water to the outside.

Not saying you have one of these but that is the way to do it if you
need to have a visible brick finish.

If you are rendering the face then you can use these too or use a
concrete lintel and render over it.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

[Bert Coules]

Fred,

Thanks for that. It now seems pretty well certain that there is no lintel
whatsoever over the window in question.

Bert