Quick question - manufactured solid fuel vs anthracite
Tim W
Just about to order some fuel for the stove and I'm confused...
The destructions mention only wood (stove tiny, not very practical) or MSF
(manufactured solid fuels).
It's an Aga Little Wenlock Classic 4-ish kW jobbie.
However the Aga brochure for that stove lists recommended fuels as:
Ancit, Phurnacite, Coalite, Sunbright, Anthracite Large Nuts, Welsh Dry
Steam Coal, Dry Seasoned Wood and a few other specific brands.
As I'm about to order a tonne, I don't want anything that's going to warp
the stove from overheating or clag the flue.
There's a good deal on anthracite large nuts from a welsh company at little
over 300/tonne so that would be my preferred choice.
I rang Aga to ask their tech dept and got some dippy woman who read the
instructions which I've read already and said "no coal" because coal wasn't
mentioned explicitly. She was unable to elaborate on which type of MSF was
recommended and there are many, some are so cheap they much be manufactured
out of part recycled material. Others are really expensive (getting on for
500/tonne).
So what do I believe - instructions (vague) or brochure? Is anthracite
similar in burning properties to the random ovoid things?
Sorry - I don't have any experience of stoves - I was brought up with open
fires that you could burn pretty much any old crap on.
Thanks in advance :)
--
Tim Watts
This space intentionally left blank...
Mike Barnes
>Hi,
>
>Just about to order some fuel for the stove and I'm confused...
>
>The destructions mention only wood (stove tiny, not very practical) or MSF
>(manufactured solid fuels).
>
>It's an Aga Little Wenlock Classic 4-ish kW jobbie.
>
>However the Aga brochure for that stove lists recommended fuels as:
>
>Ancit, Phurnacite, Coalite, Sunbright, Anthracite Large Nuts, Welsh Dry
>Steam Coal, Dry Seasoned Wood and a few other specific brands.
>
>As I'm about to order a tonne, I don't want anything that's going to warp
>the stove from overheating or clag the flue.
>
>There's a good deal on anthracite large nuts from a welsh company at little
>over 300/tonne so that would be my preferred choice.
>
>I rang Aga to ask their tech dept and got some dippy woman who read the
>instructions which I've read already and said "no coal" because coal wasn't
>mentioned explicitly. She was unable to elaborate on which type of MSF was
>recommended and there are many, some are so cheap they much be manufactured
>out of part recycled material. Others are really expensive (getting on for
>500/tonne).
>
>So what do I believe - instructions (vague) or brochure? Is anthracite
>similar in burning properties to the random ovoid things?
We've got a Little Wenlock 2. We've burned - for about five years each -
house coal, Coalite nuts, and anthracite. And lots of wood. No problems.
--
Mike Barnes
Tim W
wibbled on Tuesday 01 December 2009 18:08
> We've got a Little Wenlock 2. We've burned - for about five years each -
> house coal, Coalite nuts, and anthracite. And lots of wood. No problems.
>
Brilliant - just the info I need :)
I have infinite wood from pallets here, so I'd better start breaking that up
for kindling...
Having done some studying, a lot of the premium smokeless fuels seem to be
made from anthracite dust anyway. On the other end of the scale are "eggs"
made from "recycled materials". The latter look cheap and a bit suspicious.
On an aside, it is interesting that I can get a ton of coal from Blaenau to
Sussex about 50 quid cheaper, including 57 quid delivery, than I can buy it
from the coal merchant in the next town. Can't be arsed to negotiate so the
welsh win :)
geoff
<t...@dionic.net> writes
>Hi,
>
>Just about to order some fuel for the stove and I'm confused...
>
>The destructions mention only wood (stove tiny, not very practical) or MSF
>(manufactured solid fuels).
>
>It's an Aga Little Wenlock Classic 4-ish kW jobbie.
>
>However the Aga brochure for that stove lists recommended fuels as:
>
>Ancit, Phurnacite, Coalite, Sunbright, Anthracite Large Nuts, Welsh Dry
>Steam Coal, Dry Seasoned Wood and a few other specific brands.
>
>As I'm about to order a tonne, I don't want anything that's going to warp
>the stove from overheating or clag the flue.
>
>There's a good deal on anthracite large nuts from a welsh company at little
>over 300/tonne so that would be my preferred choice.
>
>I rang Aga to ask their tech dept and got some dippy woman
You want to speak to Gavin - he's the know-all there
--
geoff
Tim W
wibbled on Tuesday 01 December 2009 22:12
> In message <hf3g1c$r27$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim W
> <t...@dionic.net> writes
>>I rang Aga to ask their tech dept and got some dippy woman
>
> You want to speak to Gavin - he's the know-all there
>
Thanks Geoff - I'll ask for him if I ring them again.
Tim W
wibbled on Tuesday 01 December 2009 22:12
> In message <hf3g1c$r27$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim W
> <t...@dionic.net> writes
>>
>>I rang Aga to ask their tech dept and got some dippy woman
>
Although I would have expected Aga to manage a bit better than dippy blond
with a script for tech support... It was like talking to Virgin about
broadband but with less random rebooting.
The Natural Philosopher
> Hi,
>
> Just about to order some fuel for the stove and I'm confused...
>
> The destructions mention only wood (stove tiny, not very practical) or MSF
> (manufactured solid fuels).
>
> It's an Aga Little Wenlock Classic 4-ish kW jobbie.
>
> However the Aga brochure for that stove lists recommended fuels as:
>
> Ancit, Phurnacite, Coalite, Sunbright, Anthracite Large Nuts, Welsh Dry
> Steam Coal, Dry Seasoned Wood and a few other specific brands.
>
> As I'm about to order a tonne, I don't want anything that's going to warp
> the stove from overheating or clag the flue.
>
Antracite is almost pure carbion, welsh dry steam coal is a bit more
bituminous.
Most of the manufactured pellets are just coal dust compacted.
Any will work, siome better than others.
> There's a good deal on anthracite large nuts from a welsh company at little
> over 300/tonne so that would be my preferred choice.
>
Go for it. Not cheap, but good stuff.
> I rang Aga to ask their tech dept and got some dippy woman who read the
> instructions which I've read already and said "no coal" because coal wasn't
> mentioned explicitly. She was unable to elaborate on which type of MSF was
> recommended and there are many, some are so cheap they much be manufactured
> out of part recycled material. Others are really expensive (getting on for
> 500/tonne).
>
> So what do I believe - instructions (vague) or brochure? Is anthracite
> similar in burning properties to the random ovoid things?
>
Better and cleaner IME. less ash content.Those nuts seem to be largely
powdwered rock..
Tim W
wibbled on Tuesday 01 December 2009 22:29
> Tim W wrote:
>> Ancit, Phurnacite, Coalite, Sunbright, Anthracite Large Nuts, Welsh Dry
>> Steam Coal, Dry Seasoned Wood and a few other specific brands.
>>
>> As I'm about to order a tonne, I don't want anything that's going to warp
>> the stove from overheating or clag the flue.
>>
>
> Antracite is almost pure carbion, welsh dry steam coal is a bit more
> bituminous.
>
That was my limited understanding about anthracite from its use in steam
engines - low clinker production and low tar although I'm sure that's a very
plebby way of describing it... Anyway, seemed to me to be a perfectly good
option because of its use in steam boilers but I know I don;t know much
about coal(!)
>
> Most of the manufactured pellets are just coal dust compacted.
I was getting that impression looking at lots of random makes today. The
only thing I can see going for manufactured fuel is regularity of lump size
and density.
>
> Any will work, siome better than others.
Jolly good :)
I don't mind trying a few as long as it doesn't become an expensive
experiment!
>> There's a good deal on anthracite large nuts from a welsh company at
>> little over 300/tonne so that would be my preferred choice.
>>
>
> Go for it. Not cheap, but good stuff.
You should see what the local lot want for it. 400/tonne... Comes of living
darn sarf...
>> So what do I believe - instructions (vague) or brochure? Is anthracite
>> similar in burning properties to the random ovoid things?
>>
>
> Better and cleaner IME. less ash content.Those nuts seem to be largely
> powdwered rock..
>
I'll go with the coal then. I can get the odd bag of random other stuff
locally for comparison purposes...
This is going to constitute 50% of my heating this winter, hence the
interest in saving a few quid.
Ta
Tim
R
"Tim W" <t...@dionic.net> wrote in message
news:hf3qu7$m2$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Interesting that the coal is cheaper, but what does your local authority
regs state regards smokeless zones?
I'm NW Kent, just outside London not far from Dartford Bridge and it's
"Technically" a smokeless zone for residential property's.
Given that we are "just" *aurt in the cuntry" and in a row of semi det' ex
farm cottages it don't stop all 8 of us burning what the fuck we want on our
fires (Mines a back boiler one that I *really* must plumb into the CH
sometime)
Get hold of a local tree surgeon (I have a mate who is one) and tell them to
dump off a load or 2 and hold off on the Leylandii (Bastard stuff it is!)
and stay warm this winter. Use the wood chip on the garden if there's any in
the load.
Tim W
wibbled on Wednesday 02 December 2009 06:34
> Interesting that the coal is cheaper,
Yes.
> but what does your local authority
> regs state regards smokeless zones?
We're not smokeless here.
> I'm NW Kent, just outside London not far from Dartford Bridge and it's
> "Technically" a smokeless zone for residential property's.
> Given that we are "just" *aurt in the cuntry" and in a row of semi det' ex
> farm cottages it don't stop all 8 of us burning what the fuck we want on
> our fires (Mines a back boiler one that I *really* must plumb into the CH
> sometime)
:)
> Get hold of a local tree surgeon (I have a mate who is one) and tell them
> to dump off a load or 2 and hold off on the Leylandii (Bastard stuff it
> is!) and stay warm this winter. Use the wood chip on the garden if there's
> any in the load.
That is an idea. I had to get 2 leylandii chopped down - one was dead in the
middle and the other was dropping untold crap into the gutters and blocking
all the light. Obviously after a conflab with Mr Surgeon, I didn't keep the
logs as they would be unsuitable for burning, but it didn't occur to me to
ask him about getting bits of other people's trees.
If he was on the ball he'd be selling them for firewood, but OTOH he might
just be burning them in his field with the leylandii for all I know...
Cheers
The Natural Philosopher
> geoff <ra...@kateda.org>
> wibbled on Tuesday 01 December 2009 22:12
>
>> In message <hf3g1c$r27$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim W
>> <t...@dionic.net> writes
>>> I rang Aga to ask their tech dept and got some dippy woman
>
> Although I would have expected Aga to manage a bit better than dippy blond
> with a script for tech support... It was like talking to Virgin about
> broadband but with less random rebooting.
>
there is no definite hardware problem ;-)
jim
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid>
> wibbled on Tuesday 01 December 2009 22:29
>
> > Tim W wrote:
> >> Ancit, Phurnacite, Coalite, Sunbright, Anthracite Large Nuts, Welsh Dry
> >> Steam Coal, Dry Seasoned Wood and a few other specific brands.
>
> >> As I'm about to order a tonne, I don't want anything that's going to warp
> >> the stove from overheating or clag the flue.
>
> > Antracite is almost pure carbion, welsh dry steam coal is a bit more
> > bituminous.
I looked into this Q when chez nous had solid fuel CH (Aga-made boiler
IIRC, taken out in 1999).
Ancit, Phurnacite and Sunbrite are all manufactured from some form or
other of powdered coal + a cement-like bonding agent). Anthracite is,
of course, natural. Those were the 4 fuels we used. I did look into
other options but sorry can't recall details)
I found out the thermal capacity of each fuel from the coal marchant.
Alas I no longer have the exact data to hand, but in summary Sunbrite
has the least thermal capacity; Phurnacite, Ancit and Anthracite are
similar. Try asking your merchant Overall the cost of each fuel was
much the same per heat unit. The difference comes in their burning
characteristics and convenience.
IIRC Ancit came on the scene in the early 1990s when there were
production problems at the Phurnacite plant. IIRC Ancit originates
from Germany. Ancit burning characteristic is very similar to
Phurnacite.
Sunbrite was best at the beginning and end of the season - it released
less heat & there was less tendency for the boiler temp to run away.
(overheated boiler = slag + over hot house + more fuel burnt than
required + more attention required+++ etc etc).
In the depths of winter we turned over to Phurncite which burns at a
higher temp and releases more heat.
In between we tended to mix Sunbrite & Phurnacite. In selecting which
fuel, you tend to get a nose for the weather and house temp and,
especially, how windy it is. Wind we found was the worst problem in
keeping a steady boiler temp.
Burning Phurnacite in unsuitable weather meant boiler temperature
control was more problematic - hence our preference for sunbrite in
early & late season.
Our experience of Anthracite was that it burnt cooler than Phurncite
- more like Sunbrite but it released heat over a longer time span, so
the boiler didn't need topping up so often.
Finally there are differences in the ash. Phurnacite and Ancit both
produce much fine powdery ash which rarely slags. Sunbrite produces
less ash but frequently slags - just a touch of over-temp can cause
slag to form. BTW slag formation is something to avoid as much as
poss as it intereferes with fuel combustion & thus the amount of heat
you are getting.
Anthracite IIRC was easiest ash-wise, producing least of all and not
inclined to slag.
HTH
Tim Lamb
<t...@dionic.net> writes
>
>I'll go with the coal then. I can get the odd bag of random other stuff
>locally for comparison purposes...
>
>This is going to constitute 50% of my heating this winter, hence the
>interest in saving a few quid.
During my research into log burners there seemed to be a potential issue
with the composition of the metal used for the grate.
Solid fuel required something more expensive than for wood. Your burner
is rated suitable for solid fuel so you should be fine.
I finally got round to moving the thermostat out to the hall and fitting
an adaptable CH pump. The current problem is getting the main house down
below 75 deg.F with all day firing on the log burner. Two big baskets of
logs though!
regards
--
Tim Lamb
Tim W
wibbled on Wednesday 02 December 2009 10:32
> I looked into this Q when chez nous had solid fuel CH (Aga-made boiler
> IIRC, taken out in 1999).
>
> Ancit, Phurnacite and Sunbrite are all manufactured from some form or
> other of powdered coal + a cement-like bonding agent). Anthracite is,
> of course, natural. Those were the 4 fuels we used. I did look into
> other options but sorry can't recall details)
>
> I found out the thermal capacity of each fuel from the coal marchant.
> Alas I no longer have the exact data to hand, but in summary Sunbrite
> has the least thermal capacity; Phurnacite, Ancit and Anthracite are
> similar. Try asking your merchant Overall the cost of each fuel was
> much the same per heat unit. The difference comes in their burning
> characteristics and convenience.
Interesting. Maybe I've got lucky - my anthracite came in a bit cheaper than
expected (delivery was actually 34 quid when I phoned the order in to DJ
Davies Fuels) and *much* cheaper than anything else I can get my mitts on
without another round of research and phone calls. Their MSF prices are
comparable to the coal but I don't recognise the brands (Superbrite,
Cosibrite and Blaze). Some suppliers are charging crazy money for Phurnacite
et al, eg Ancit from coals2u.co.uk is 478/tonne (ow!).
>
> IIRC Ancit came on the scene in the early 1990s when there were
> production problems at the Phurnacite plant. IIRC Ancit originates
> from Germany. Ancit burning characteristic is very similar to
> Phurnacite.
>
> Sunbrite was best at the beginning and end of the season - it released
> less heat & there was less tendency for the boiler temp to run away.
> (overheated boiler = slag + over hot house + more fuel burnt than
> required + more attention required+++ etc etc).
That's very interesting.
> In the depths of winter we turned over to Phurncite which burns at a
> higher temp and releases more heat.
>
> In between we tended to mix Sunbrite & Phurnacite. In selecting which
> fuel, you tend to get a nose for the weather and house temp and,
> especially, how windy it is. Wind we found was the worst problem in
> keeping a steady boiler temp.
That's very useful to be forewarned. The wind plays merry tunes on our
chimneys and it's been strong of late, so I expect some fiddling to get used
to this. Hopefully it will be a matter of playing with the air dampers on
the stove to get the desired results.
> Burning Phurnacite in unsuitable weather meant boiler temperature
> control was more problematic - hence our preference for sunbrite in
> early & late season.
>
> Our experience of Anthracite was that it burnt cooler than Phurncite
> - more like Sunbrite but it released heat over a longer time span, so
> the boiler didn't need topping up so often.
That might be a good thing as there's furniture 4 foot from the stove, so
whilst I'd like as much heat as possible, having a cooler burn is probably
beneficial to avoid roasting everything.
> Finally there are differences in the ash. Phurnacite and Ancit both
> produce much fine powdery ash which rarely slags. Sunbrite produces
> less ash but frequently slags - just a touch of over-temp can cause
> slag to form. BTW slag formation is something to avoid as much as
> poss as it intereferes with fuel combustion & thus the amount of heat
> you are getting.
>
> Anthracite IIRC was easiest ash-wise, producing least of all and not
> inclined to slag.
Excellent. Stoves aren't cheap and flue liners cost as much again, so not
buggering up either is a definate plus :)
I wonder how well anthracite slumbers?... I'll find out next week :)
One other thing - I don't have a proper bunker - so I'm stacking bags of it
in an old pallet crate round by the shed. It's occurred to me that perhaps
some of the MSFs might be quite water absorbant and thus a bugger to light
if they get rained on. Coals better in that respect, should only get wet on
the surface.
Thanks for the very informative response Jim - much appreciated!
Cheers
Tim W
wibbled on Wednesday 02 December 2009 10:44
> In message <hf470e$shu$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim W
> <t...@dionic.net> writes
>>
>>I'll go with the coal then. I can get the odd bag of random other stuff
>>locally for comparison purposes...
>>
>>This is going to constitute 50% of my heating this winter, hence the
>>interest in saving a few quid.
>
> During my research into log burners there seemed to be a potential issue
> with the composition of the metal used for the grate.
>
> Solid fuel required something more expensive than for wood. Your burner
> is rated suitable for solid fuel so you should be fine.
Yes. There are just so many MSFs around that I couldn't work out how
different they all were. But I'm happy now.
>
> I finally got round to moving the thermostat out to the hall and fitting
> an adaptable CH pump. The current problem is getting the main house down
> below 75 deg.F with all day firing on the log burner. Two big baskets of
> logs though!
Ideally I'd love to burn logs (lots of woodland round here so wood can get
acquired for sensible money). Unfortunately the fireplace opening is only
20" wide so that limited the choice of stoves. Mine will burn wood, but
you'd only get a 2-3 of 3" logs in at best. Pretty but not very practical.
The Natural Philosopher
Jim's data is pretty consistent with my ancient recollections of all
this from childhood.
Anthracite banks down really well overnight. Its a very high density of
carbon to almost anything else.
It will clinker up if run hot though.
But its the best, along with dry steam coal, there is. The use of cement
to bind the manufactured nuts is probably why they have a high ash content.
Andy Dingley
> Having done some studying, a lot of the premium smokeless fuels seem to be
> made from anthracite dust anyway. On the other end of the scale are "eggs"
> made from "recycled materials". The latter look cheap and a bit suspicious.
Often used filter bed coke, crushed & eggified.
They presumably make them into eggs to try and explain the peculiar
sulphorous smells generated when burning. You can also get a lot of
clinker (i.e. a problem in a rotating grate) from the poorer grades of
this stuff.
Mike Barnes
>Mine will burn wood, but
>you'd only get a 2-3 of 3" logs in at best. Pretty but not very practical.
You said it was Little Wenlock IIRC. According to the instructions you
can remove the bottom-grate, firebricks, and ash pan if you're only
burning wood. That would improve the capacity a bit.
--
Mike Barnes
Tim W
wibbled on Wednesday 02 December 2009 16:08
> On 1 Dec, 19:31, Tim W <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>
>> Having done some studying, a lot of the premium smokeless fuels seem to
>> be made from anthracite dust anyway. On the other end of the scale are
>> "eggs" made from "recycled materials". The latter look cheap and a bit
>> suspicious.
>
> Often used filter bed coke, crushed & eggified.
>
As in sewage farm filter beds? Ew...
> They presumably make them into eggs to try and explain the peculiar
> sulphorous smells generated when burning.
I know what I put down the drains and I don;t want to see it on my fires ;->
> You can also get a lot of
> clinker (i.e. a problem in a rotating grate) from the poorer grades of
> this stuff.
I was right to be skeptical then - my tiny little rotating grate really
won't like that.
When I did my 1/2 day steam train driving (birthday present) the bloke was
bemoaning some of the coal they'd been getting - said at the end of the day
that there could be a layer of effectively glass on the grate and if you
didn't break it up whilst it was hot it was a bugger to get out later.
Tim W
wibbled on Wednesday 02 December 2009 16:34
Interesting. Mine (which is a "Classic") comes with an extra plate that goes
over the main grate for wood. Can't remove the grate as the refactory blocks
it on it (AFAICT). I can remove the front guard metal though.
Andy Dingley
> When I did my 1/2 day steam train driving (birthday present) the bloke was
> bemoaning some of the coal they'd been getting
Oddly that was also my first experience of the joys of second-hand
coke and its fireproof habits (albeit many years ago).
Welsh steam coal is finally back available, according to the last Old
Glory
jim
> Tim W wrote:
> > jim <jim_in_sus...@hotmail.com>
> > wibbled on Wednesday 02 December 2009 10:32
>
> >> I looked into this Q when chez nous had solid fuel CH (Aga-made boiler
> >> IIRC, taken out in 1999).
>
> Jim's data is pretty consistent with my ancient recollections of all
> this from childhood.
>
> Anthracite banks down really well overnight. Its a very high density of
> carbon to almost anything else.
>
yes - that slipped my mind. The Aga boiler we had was supposed to be
filled every 8 hours which was impractical. But mostly we managed 2 x
daily. Anthracite - when we had it in stock - was very useful in late
autumn/early spring. A filling with sunbrite could easily be almost
gone by the morning. Anthracite could burn all night & there would
still be a useful amount left in the grate next morning.
Relighting the boiler in the morning was something I dreaded - in
itself sometimes difficult in certain wind conditions & on top of that
we would be rushing to get out to work. If it had to be left out all
day, it was a cold house we'd be returning to. Something to avoid.
Also as another poster mentions, some of the manufactured fuels can
produce a whiff of sulphur. That wasn't a perpetual problem, so it
may have depended on the batch: sometimes I wondered if it was due to
the fuel having got wet.
Quite good fun all in all. A solid fuel boiler is like having a pet
in the house. You get to know its moods and when to feed it and it
pays you back by keeping you superbly warm as you can't turn it off.
Enjoy.
HTH
Tim W
wibbled on Tuesday 01 December 2009 16:25
> Hi,
>
> Just about to order some fuel for the stove and I'm confused...
>
> The destructions mention only wood (stove tiny, not very practical) or MSF
> (manufactured solid fuels).
>
> It's an Aga Little Wenlock Classic 4-ish kW jobbie.
>
> However the Aga brochure for that stove lists recommended fuels as:
>
> Ancit, Phurnacite, Coalite, Sunbright, Anthracite Large Nuts, Welsh Dry
> Steam Coal, Dry Seasoned Wood and a few other specific brands.
Follow up:
I would say that anthracite (large nut - golf ball to tennis ball sized
lumps) is a *very* suitable fuel for these little heaters.
For the record, so far, running semi flat out for 12 hours and slumbering
overnight, it's taking about 10kg coal a day (£3.30).
Electric heating load reduced from 4kW all day to typically 1kW fan heater
round the back.